Any chance we can drop the 'overpowered' argument when discussing comics?

[Calvin Government]

Look, in a fictional story in a medium with an unlimited effects budget, it is literally impossible for a character to be overpowered. I don't mean, "It's tough to do." I mean, it is not possible for a character to be overpowered in comics. That isn't a thing that can happen. A character can be too powerful to tell certain types of stories, certainly.

It's possible that an ultra-powerful character will have a bad writer, or will get a bad editorial mandate... but that happens to street level characters just as often, if not moreso, and no one gives a shit. I've yet to hear a coherent argument against overpowered characters in Marvel or DC, but it's one of the most common complaints I hear against an awful lot of characters. No reason is given, no defense. Just, "They're too powerful."

What does that accomplish? How is that constructive? What does that even mean?

[Free-Man]

I really have no stake in the "too powerful argument", though I can sort of see how that may be problematic. Like there's a reason walking Deus ex machinas like Jakeem Thunder and Zatanna always end up being muffled or knocked out three panels into a story, which is unfortunate.

I had heard people speculate that the reviled JLA: Detroit era partially came about due to Conway thinking it would be easier to come up with regular threats for a team of substantially weaker heroes than the Satellite-era JLA.

But at the same time, Miracle Man really shows off the types of incredible stories you can tell with a god-like superhero.

[dupont2005]

It is possible for a character to be overpowered for his particular predicament. Superman patroling a single city every day? A super being who could punch a planet out of orbit is spending his time nabbing crooks? And someone that powerful could fight with a mere human for ten pages or more if necessary? The fight at the end of The Dark Knight Returns should have been one panel long, with Superman melting Batman's face with his laser vision.

[40footwolf]

It is possible for a character to be overpowered for his particular predicament. Superman patroling a single city every day? A super being who could punch a planet out of orbit is spending his time nabbing crooks? And someone that powerful could fight with a mere human for ten pages or more if necessary? The fight at the end of The Dark Knight Returns should have been one panel long, with Superman melting Batman's face with his laser vision.

I know I always pick up my superhero comics for terse, joyless exchanges between men who dress like Parliament/Funkadelic rejects and can stomp through the moon.

[Calvin Government]

It is possible for a character to be overpowered for his particular predicament. Superman patroling a single city every day? A super being who could punch a planet out of orbit is spending his time nabbing crooks? And someone that powerful could fight with a mere human for ten pages or more if necessary? The fight at the end of The Dark Knight Returns should have been one panel long, with Superman melting Batman's face with his laser vision.

But that's true of characters of ANY power level. There are some situations that the character will be too powerful to handle with any kind of dramatic tension, and there are some situations that the character won't be powerful enough to reasonably handle. And yet, no one complains that "Batman is too weak" just because she can't reasonably juggle the moon if that comes up. But, because Superman is so powerful that no mugger will ever present a threat to him, he's 'too powerful'?

It seems like the equivalent of saying, "Hamburgers must suck. Every vegetarian to whom I've given one has been disgusted!" If you drastically misuse something, it's not going to go well in any area.

[dupont2005]

But that's true of characters of ANY power level. There are some situations that the character will be too powerful to handle with any kind of dramatic tension, and there are some situations that the character won't be powerful enough to reasonably handle. And yet, no one complains that "Batman is too weak" just because she can't reasonably juggle the moon if that comes up. But, because Superman is so powerful that no mugger will ever present a threat to him, he's 'too powerful'?

It seems like the equivalent of saying, "Hamburgers must suck. Every vegetarian to whom I've given one has been disgusted!" If you drastically misuse something, it's not going to go well in any area.

Well, Silver Surfer is usually in outer space fighting planet eaters and what not, and I would say he's on Superman's level. Now if Silver Surfer punched a time clock all day and foiled petty crimes by night, he would be wasting his powers. Batman on the other hand is a mere mortal. He'll never be "too powerful" to duke it out with a pcp fueled felon armed with only a switchblade. Or if Silver Surfer teamed up with Jubilee, or someone even more worthless than Jubilee, on more than one occasion, that would just be lame. But Supes has teamed up with the Boy Wonder a handful of times, like a planet toppling titan would need back up from some kid.

[FalconX2000]

It is possible for a character to be overpowered for his particular predicament. Superman patroling a single city every day? A super being who could punch a planet out of orbit is spending his time nabbing crooks? And someone that powerful could fight with a mere human for ten pages or more if necessary? The fight at the end of The Dark Knight Returns should have been one panel long, with Superman melting Batman's face with his laser vision.


http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/5264/supermanoverkillsmallerg.jpg



Ironically, Superman the Animated Series actually presented Superman at a power level that made sense for a city-level protector.

[Cam63]

It is possible for a character to be overpowered for his particular predicament. Superman patroling a single city every day? A super being who could punch a planet out of orbit is spending his time nabbing crooks? And someone that powerful could fight with a mere human for ten pages or more if necessary? The fight at the end of The Dark Knight Returns should have been one panel long, with Superman melting Batman's face with his laser vision.

50-something year old Batman had a shitload of prep time.

[Karen El]

50-something year old Batman had a shitload of prep time.

I'm kinda tired of the "Batman can defeat anyone, given sufficient prep time" meme. I mean I'm all for Batman being able to plan ahead to win, even if he has notable blind spots (how many times has the Bat-computer being hacked now?), but I don't care how much lead time he gets, Batman should not be getting in fist fights with god-level beings.

On one level, if he's that smart, how is he not smart enough to defeat the guy without resorting to punching him, and on another level, how is he not turned into a smear on the wall the first time Darkseid hits him back?

[Free-Man]

I'm kinda tired of the "Batman can defeat anyone, given sufficient prep time" meme. I mean I'm all for Batman being able to plan ahead to win, even if he has notable blind spots (how many times has the Bat-computer being hacked now?), but I don't care how much lead time he gets, Batman should not be getting in fist fights with god-level beings.

On one level, if he's that smart, how is he not smart enough to defeat the guy without resorting to punching him, and on another level, how is he not turned into a smear on the wall the first time Darkseid hits him back?

Look on the bright side. At least he isn't as ridiculously written as Prometheus was in Cry For Justice.

Here we have a man who for all purposes is simply an evil Batman. And yet he single handedly is able to defeat not one, but TWO entire teams of superheroes at the same time. It's not even like when he first appeared in Morrison's run and basically divided the team and cleverly picked them off one by one.

Both teams just rush at him, and he wipes his ass with all of them.

[Magneto X]

Look, in a fictional story in a medium with an unlimited effects budget, it is literally impossible for a character to be overpowered.

While it is "possible" to write all of your characters to have God-like or semi-God-like powers, I find that uninteresting. So, no, I will still criticize the Supermans and Silver Surfers as being so overpowered that I am not invested. Being invulnerable and light-speed (even without the other powers) is already way too much for me to care about you and your challenges. The fact that DC has "ten-times" light-speed for characters dealing with human beings is just ridiculous.

[Calvin Government]

While it is "possible" to write all of your characters to have God-like or semi-God-like powers, I find that uninteresting. So, no, I will still criticize the Supermans and Silver Surfers as being so overpowered that I am not invested. Being invulnerable and light-speed (even without the other powers) is already way too much for me to care about you and your challenges. The fact that DC has "ten-times" light-speed for characters dealing with human beings is just ridiculous.

So, because a normal human cannot punch Superman out, you find him uninteresting? Because he's fast, clearly no problem can affect him? You don't care about someone because they're fast? What does that even mean?

That's not an criticism against a character, that's an argument against superheroes as a whole. It's a criticism against action fiction in its entirety!

Superman will never be punched out by a normal human at the beginning of a story. Neither, really, will Batman. Nor Wolverine. Nor Captain America. Hell, no one will, even people as weak as Beak. Because stories don't begin with the protagonist being taken out of the picture for the story, especially not by some random, normal guy.

"Ten-times" light-speed is a number. It is, essentially, meaningless. There are still people faster than him, and people slower than him, just like there are people faster than me, and slower than me. The exact same principles apply.

Maybe you only like street-level stories (I doubt it, because a vastly powerful person is your user name, but whatever). That's fine. But again, that's not saying "Superman is overpowered" or "The Silver Surfer is overpowered." That's saying, "I dislike that style." You don't like power. That's fine. You can make personal choices like that, obviously, whenever you'd like. It's a weird one for someone who likes superhero comics to make, but that's your business.

[AllisterH]

It's all about the challenge.

Thor vs Surtur or Celestials or the Destroyer?

Hella yeah. Give me those as in each of those cases, Thor, even with all his power, is decidely the underdog

(It took a family teamup with Odin and Loki to stop Surtur...the Celestials simply have demolished Thor every time he even thought of fighting them while the Destroyer armour has killed Thor 3 times out of the 5 times they fought)

The Flash versus the Rogues (not named Zoom or Reverse Flash)
Let me see...I can literally move multiples of the speed of light and I'm taking more than a panel to beat some guys with trick gimmicks?

Yeah, that doesn't work for me....

[7thangel]

i'm not a fan of the flash (any of them), but unless they want to decapitate, seriously injure their opponents or themselves, i always thought they would have to regulate how much of their power they could use, consciously and subconsciously. that in itself would hamper their fighting strength.

as far as i'm concerned, a good/great writer shouldn't have any problems with the so-called 'too powerful' heroes, even when they face much weaker opponents. at the very least, there's comparable villains and anti-heroes that are just as powerful, if not more.

if you can create a universe where grown women and men wear panties and thongs to fight 'evil' and extinction level threats, and not make it seem incredibly ridiculous, then it really shouldn't be a problem

[The Batman]

It is possible for a character to be overpowered for his particular predicament. Superman patroling a single city every day? A super being who could punch a planet out of orbit is spending his time nabbing crooks? And someone that powerful could fight with a mere human for ten pages or more if necessary?

When was the last time it's taken Superman ten pages to nab one common crook who wasn't powered up by some kind of super weapon or another?



The fight at the end of The Dark Knight Returns should have been one panel long, with Superman melting Batman's face with his laser vision.

The problem with that or course being that it would've been well out of character for Superman to do that.

You should reread the end of The Dark Knight Returns. For most of it, Superman isn't trying to fight Batman, he's trying to reason with him. And when he does fight back, it's still with a minimum of force because he's trying to hold back. He very easily tears off Bruce's power armour and breaks three of his ribs.

Just because Superman can punch through people doesn't mean he wants to or is going to.

[dupont2005]

50-something year old Batman had a shitload of prep time.

Superman punches PLANETS! Cuts through steel by looking at it! Twirls the planet like a basketball and travels through time!

[The Batman]

50-something year old Batman had a shitload of prep time.

Yup, and even then the fight only lasted as long as it did because Superman wasn't really trying to fight him.

[The Batman]

I'm kinda tired of the "Batman can defeat anyone, given sufficient prep time" meme. I mean I'm all for Batman being able to plan ahead to win, even if he has notable blind spots (how many times has the Bat-computer being hacked now?), but I don't care how much lead time he gets, Batman should not be getting in fist fights with god-level beings.

On one level, if he's that smart, how is he not smart enough to defeat the guy without resorting to punching him, and on another level, how is he not turned into a smear on the wall the first time Darkseid hits him back?

Batman's a bit of oddity isn't he? At the same time that people are touting his mortality as the key to his appeal there are people talking about how he can defeat anyone given the time to plan it out and complaining that Hal Jordan was able to punch him in Green Lantern: Rebirth.

[Teal_Lantern]

Yup, and even then the fight only lasted as long as it did because Superman wasn't really trying to fight him.

Not to mention Superman was weakened by the effects of the bomb and Batman cheated anyways.

Also, I think it's fair to say that certain characters are overpowered in a shared universe setting. Like, what's the point of having Green Arrow in the Justice League? what does he add when you have people who can push mountains and move faster than thought?

[The Batman]

I don't know that Batman cheated, but he certainly took advantage of his friendship with Superman to get an edge. Clark was there to talk Bruce down, not beat him up.

[Grazzt]

Also, I think it's fair to say that certain characters are overpowered in a shared universe setting.

Nah, because in a shared universe setting there's always plenty of work to be done. It's like in Astro City, the issue with the Storm God. While all the more powerful heroes were trying to contain the Storm God, the street levelers went around dealing with the people trying to use the Storm God's attack to rob the city.


Like, what's the point of having Green Arrow in the Justice League? what does he add when you have people who can push mountains and move faster than thought?

He's the only member of the League that can sing his own theme song. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAhbNmpYazQ&feature=related)

[Teal_Lantern]

I don't know that Batman cheated, but he certainly took advantage of his friendship with Superman to get an edge. Clark was there to talk Bruce down, not beat him up.

I meant using Green Arrow, the Kryptonite and the missiles.


Nah, because in a shared universe setting there's always plenty of work to be done. It's like in Astro City, the issue with the Storm God. While all the more powerful heroes were trying to contain the Storm God, the street levelers went around dealing with the people trying to use the Storm God's attack to rob the city.

That is an interesting way to do things. Perhaps, more to the point, the two shouldn't have to be involved in eachother's stories.



He's the only member of the League that can sing his own theme song. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAhbNmpYazQ&feature=related)

Heh, that's awesome.

[The Batman]

I meant using Green Arrow, the Kryptonite and the missiles.



I know, I'm just not sure that's cheating. It's not like Batman agreed to meet Superman by the Marquess of Queensbury's rules and then pulled out a gun.

[Teal_Lantern]

I know, I'm just not sure that's cheating. It's not like Batman agreed to meet Superman by the Marquess of Queensbury's rules and then pulled out a gun.

I guess, but what I meant was that it wasn't like they just had Batman beating up a full powered Superman in a normal fight.

[mailedbypostman1]

You just need to make realistic challenges for these overpowered characters.

[The Batman]

I guess, but what I meant was that it wasn't like they just had Batman beating up a full powered Superman in a normal fight.

Or Batman beating up a Superman that was trying to fight back. A lot of people really missed what was going on with that bit of the book.

A better worse example of this would be the Batman/Superman fight from "Sacrifice." Not that Batman won, but that he didn't end up a red smear fighting against a Superman who thought he was fighting against people like Doomsday.



You just need to make realistic challenges for these overpowered characters.

Of course. But that's like all hard and stuff.

[Free-Man]

Of course. But that's like all hard and stuff.

Well, I don't think it's a problem really unless it's in ensemble books, because then the more powerful characters often commit blinding acts of stupidity just to justify being defeated.

. In particular, I'll (again) point to Cry For Justice. The big fight scene at the end apparently requires Supergirl being taken out of the equation, so Robinson has Prometheus shoot her with (literally) magic bullets. That in itself isn't all that bad.

But Prometheus doesn't just shoot her. He monologues and tells her he has magic bullets, even going so far as to say where he got them and what god forged them. At no point does Kara move or anything. He basically tells her "Hey there, girl who can fly and who has superspeed. I'm gonna shoot you with these magical bullets that can kill you." And she stands there and lets him shoot her.

Ya know, despite the whole "Faster than a speeding bullet" thing, she stands there and lets herself get shot.

[Teal_Lantern]

Or Batman beating up a Superman that was trying to fight back. A lot of people really missed what was going on with that bit of the book.

A better worse example of this would be the Batman/Superman fight from "Sacrifice." Not that Batman won, but that he didn't end up a red smear fighting against a Superman who thought he was fighting against people like Doomsday.


Yeah, what was up with that? Another reason for that story's suckiness.

[dupont2005]

I don't know that Batman cheated, but he certainly took advantage of his friendship with Superman to get an edge. Clark was there to talk Bruce down, not beat him up.

Yeah, if I were an invulnerable supergod I would use kid gloves on the weaker beings until my invulnerability was threatened, then I would be blowing shit up from the safety of outer space.

[Cam63]

I'm kinda tired of the "Batman can defeat anyone, given sufficient prep time" meme. I mean I'm all for Batman being able to plan ahead to win, even if he has notable blind spots (how many times has the Bat-computer being hacked now?), but I don't care how much lead time he gets, Batman should not be getting in fist fights with god-level beings.

On one level, if he's that smart, how is he not smart enough to defeat the guy without resorting to punching him, and on another level, how is he not turned into a smear on the wall the first time Darkseid hits him back?

I'd like to see Supes take on a 6 year old on a sugar buzz. That may be his limit.

...Particularly if her name is Isabelle.

[The Batman]

Yeah, if I were an invulnerable supergod I would use kid gloves on the weaker beings until my invulnerability was threatened, then I would be blowing shit up from the safety of outer space.

Fair enough, but then you wouldn't be Superman.

[The Batman]

Yeah, what was up with that? Another reason for that story's suckiness.

No idea. I think "Sacrifice" was one of those things that was written with an endpoint in mind but less thought given to how things would get there. I think a better way to go would've been to have the Superman/Batman fight from the story be extremely short. Maxwell Lord controls Superman for only a second or two, just long enough for him to slap the Dark Knight Detective, but also long enough that he could very nearly kills Batman. I think it'd make a much better point, and this is something Max could say, about just how dangerous a mind-controlled Man of Steel could be and, in turn, how dangerous Maxwell Lord was.

[PatrickG]

It is possible for a character to be overpowered for his particular predicament. Superman patroling a single city every day? A super being who could punch a planet out of orbit is spending his time nabbing crooks? And someone that powerful could fight with a mere human for ten pages or more if necessary? The fight at the end of The Dark Knight Returns should have been one panel long, with Superman melting Batman's face with his laser vision.

So? You just pit him against crooks who can knock the planet out of orbit too.

[dupont2005]

So? You just pit him against crooks who can knock the planet out of orbit too.

Exactly.:biggrin:

[Arrogantcur]

Look, in a fictional story in a medium with an unlimited effects budget, it is literally impossible for a character to be overpowered. I don't mean, "It's tough to do." I mean, it is not possible for a character to be overpowered in comics. That isn't a thing that can happen. A character can be too powerful to tell certain types of stories, certainly.

It's possible that an ultra-powerful character will have a bad writer, or will get a bad editorial mandate... but that happens to street level characters just as often, if not moreso, and no one gives a shit. I've yet to hear a coherent argument against overpowered characters in Marvel or DC, but it's one of the most common complaints I hear against an awful lot of characters. No reason is given, no defense. Just, "They're too powerful."

What does that accomplish? How is that constructive? What does that even mean?

There's a Tom DeFalco quote I like to use when I see a question like this:

"A villain should also be worthy of the hero he's attempting to conquer. He should have sufficient personal power at his command, or a plan that is so clever, so diabolically deadly that it presents a real challenge to our illustrious hero. Since the bad guys are usually the ones who instigate the conflict, the scales of battle should be decidedly tipped in their favor. While Doctor Octopus can really tax Spider-Man and has a great advantage over Daredevil, he wouldn't last a single round against Warlock...not unless he had something really clever working in his favor. No one roots for a bully, and that's exactly what the Silver Surfer would seem like if he went after the Ringmaster and his Circus of Crime. Silver Sable and the Punisher can hunt local crime tzars. The Fantastic Four usually aim for bigger game."

So if all of Superman's villains were able to be beaten as easily as the Silver Surfer would beat the Circus of Crime, that would mean either Superman was too powerful, or his villains were not powerful enough.

I think the "overpowered" label is used when a hero is written as being so powerful that the writers have a hard time coming up with villains that can present a legitimate threat to him or her.

I've seen people say things like "Just because Superman is amazingly strong and invulnerable and has heat vision and so on, that doesn't mean the stories are boring! Because the bad guys will threaten normal people, and they're vulnerable, and Superman has to save them!"

Well, here's the thing. If I read a comic book, I'm reading it because I like the hero and care about the hero. It's a lot more gripping for me if the main character of the book is in danger than if said main character just runs around saving extras, or even supporting cast. In the former situation, we have a guy fighting for his very life; in the latter, he's just trying to beat the clock and catch some random person before they hit the ground. And if you know that the hero can fly at 500 miles per second, that makes it even less interesting because they're obviously going to get there in time to catch the person and seeing whether they can get there in time is about as exciting as seeing whether I can run across the street before sixty minutes are up.

Bottom line: a character who can do almost anything fighting villains who are pathetic in comparison is boring as hell. In my opinion.

[Magneto X]

"Ten-times" light-speed is a number. It is, essentially, meaningless. There are still people faster than him, and people slower than him, just like there are people faster than me, and slower than me.

You've never been more wrong I suspect. Ten times light speed is not meaningless. It is ridiculous. It makes for no drama. And the fact that there are other heroes as fast makes DC even less compelling. No villain slower than light speed should ever have a chance. Especially combined with punching planets and reading a penny from space, etc. If that's the kind of confidence you need to not worry about your heroes, fine, but that's pointless to me.




The Flash versus the Rogues (not named Zoom or Reverse Flash)
Let me see...I can literally move multiples of the speed of light and I'm taking more than a panel to beat some guys with trick gimmicks?

Yeah, that doesn't work for me....

Yes. Thank you.



There's a Tom DeFalco quote I like to use when I see a question like this:

"A villain should also be worthy of the hero he's attempting to conquer. He should have sufficient personal power at his command, or a plan that is so clever, so diabolically deadly that it presents a real challenge to our illustrious hero. Since the bad guys are usually the ones who instigate the conflict, the scales of battle should be decidedly tipped in their favor. While Doctor Octopus can really tax Spider-Man and has a great advantage over Daredevil, he wouldn't last a single round against Warlock...not unless he had something really clever working in his favor. No one roots for a bully, and that's exactly what the Silver Surfer would seem like if he went after the Ringmaster and his Circus of Crime. Silver Sable and the Punisher can hunt local crime tzars. The Fantastic Four usually aim for bigger game."

So if all of Superman's villains were able to be beaten as easily as the Silver Surfer would beat the Circus of Crime, that would mean either Superman was too powerful, or his villains were not powerful enough.

I think the "overpowered" label is used when a hero is written as being so powerful that the writers have a hard time coming up with villains that can present a legitimate threat to him or her.

I've seen people say things like "Just because Superman is amazingly strong and invulnerable and has heat vision and so on, that doesn't mean the stories are boring! Because the bad guys will threaten normal people, and they're vulnerable, and Superman has to save them!"

Well, here's the thing. If I read a comic book, I'm reading it because I like the hero and care about the hero. It's a lot more gripping for me if the main character of the book is in danger than if said main character just runs around saving extras, or even supporting cast. In the former situation, we have a guy fighting for his very life; in the latter, he's just trying to beat the clock and catch some random person before they hit the ground. And if you know that the hero can fly at 500 miles per second, that makes it even less interesting because they're obviously going to get there in time to catch the person and seeing whether they can get there in time is about as exciting as seeing whether I can run across the street before sixty minutes are up.

Bottom line: a character who can do almost anything fighting villains who are pathetic in comparison is boring as hell. In my opinion.

Yes. Awesome.

[Ziggy Stardust]

It is possible for a character to be overpowered for his particular predicament. Superman patroling a single city every day? A super being who could punch a planet out of orbit is spending his time nabbing crooks? And someone that powerful could fight with a mere human for ten pages or more if necessary? The fight at the end of The Dark Knight Returns should have been one panel long, with Superman melting Batman's face with his laser vision.

From orbit, even.

[Karen El]

So? You just pit him against crooks who can knock the planet out of orbit too.

Or you could do the smart thing and instead of making everything about who is bigger or stronger all the time, put Supes in a situation where all his fancy powers either don't help at all, or actually make the situation worse.

Not every challenge to Superman has to be Earth-shaking. I mean I love the big flashy end of the world stuff as much as anyone, but it shouldn't be happening so often that it gets boring.

[LewisH]

book is way more powerful than the rest of the team, it can make it very difficult for me to suspend my disbelief. For example, with Flash around who is supposed to be able to run at near light speed, the Justice League should never have a problem with any villains who don't have a way to counter that.
So if the villains can deal with the Flash, then those same villains should have no problem with Green Arrow. This kind of problem just cascades which is why a proper balance of heroes with powers that are complementary and villains that aren't paper tigers is necessary for an interesting story.

[Grazzt]

Or you could do the smart thing and instead of making everything about who is bigger or stronger all the time, put Supes in a situation where all his fancy powers either don't help at all, or actually make the situation worse.

Not every challenge to Superman has to be Earth-shaking. I mean I love the big flashy end of the world stuff as much as anyone, but it shouldn't be happening so often that it gets boring.

The thing is, Supes is an action hero. A problem that can't be solved by punching (or superpowers in general) goes against the whole purpose of the series. You might as well make a problem for Light Yagami that can't be solved by the Death Note and overthinking things.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Or you could do the smart thing and instead of making everything about who is bigger or stronger all the time, put Supes in a situation where all his fancy powers either don't help at all, or actually make the situation worse.

Not every challenge to Superman has to be Earth-shaking. I mean I love the big flashy end of the world stuff as much as anyone, but it shouldn't be happening so often that it gets boring.

Too late. But, at DC that's not just Superman's fault.

[Black Atom]

The drama of Silver Surfer, for instance, has never been "Oh, how's he gonna beat this guy!" Superman, when his stories are done well, aren't about that, either. Even for relatively weak characters like Spider-Man, the greatest drama in those books came from his personal life, not from whether or not this time would be the one time (out of 100 encounters) Doc Ock would win.. Seems like a silly complaint.

[Calvin Government]

You've never been more wrong I suspect. Ten times light speed is not meaningless. It is ridiculous. It makes for no drama. And the fact that there are other heroes as fast makes DC even less compelling. No villain slower than light speed should ever have a chance. Especially combined with punching planets and reading a penny from space, etc. If that's the kind of confidence you need to not worry about your heroes, fine, but that's pointless to me.

It makes for no drama because there are people who are faster and stronger than Superman who oppose him? Please, do describe how Darkseid vs. Superman is somehow less dramatic than Spider-Man vs. Doc Ock? Both are between evenly or almost evenly matched struggles. Both engage in combat far removed from 'real' fighting. All candidates involved are faster, stronger, smarter than essentially anyone alive today. So, what, precisely, is the difference here?

Now, that proves you wrong pretty conclusively already, but here's the real kicker: your point is only even remotely almost valid IF THE ONLY POSSIBLE SOURCE OF CONFLICT IS PHYSICAL. Because most conflict in a lifetime is not physical, it's blatantly preposterous to assume that being physically powerful somehow insulates them from all defeat.

99.9% of superhero comics are not about 'who would win this fight?' They're about drama and comedy. And the principles of those very basic kinds of storytelling remain the same, be the participants gods or insects.

[FalconX2000]

I will point out that Rumbles has found Doctor Octopus to stand absolutely no chance of doing more than mildly inconveniencing Spider-Man if the former lacks prep time.

[malonine]

[QUOTE=Calvin Government;11513713]So, because a normal human cannot punch Superman out, you find him uninteresting? Because he's fast, clearly no problem can affect him? You don't care about someone because they're fast? What does that even mean?

It means that they're faster than is necessary for a story. 10 times the speed of light is impossible to even imagine and so it is meaningless. Uninteresting too. Part of hero narrative is watching him overcome seemingly insurmountable odds. When you're invulnerable and can move faster than anything known to man it's hard to maintain dramatic tension.

At least the Silver Surfer and other cosmic being like that stick to cosmic level threats.

[dupont2005]

Still, if it only takes one panel for Superman to fly to outer space and punch out a meteorite, how many panels did it take him to stop that purse snatcher? After displaying the ability to see as far as Moscow and through walls, do you think there was ANYTHING more deserving of a megabeing intervening than a non violent purse snatching? It's not always about the physical conflict, but when there is a physical conflict it is. That goes for every story ever. If Rocky was about the best boxer ever beating a blind cripple it wouldn't have quite the impact, and the rumbles board isn't about "What would have a more comedic/dramatic impact?"

[ShaunN]

I think it is possible for a hero to be "too powerful" simply because it does make it difficult to create dramatic tension - at least, using the standard format of most comic books or if we're dealing with a hero whose run will continue indefinitely.

I certainly agree that there are many ways to tell a Superman story and that the dramatic tension that makes the story interesting does not need to be based in physical conflict. But, at some point, it does - what makes Superman 'super" are his physical abilities. Then, the only way to create any dramatic tension is to pit Supes against foes who are actually a challenge to his physical abilities (like Darkseid) or to come up with lame plot devices that make Supes appear to be far more stupid or incompetent than he actually is. The other approach is to make him much weaker than he has been established as being - thus, the ludicrous bit in Sacrifice where, as others have pointed out, Batman survives an attack by an enraged Superman - a virtual physical impossiblity. Superman should have made Batman a smear on the wall in a nanosecond. The recent "World of Krypton" series so depowered Kryptonians in general that it's become a mystery why someone did not kill Superman ages ago.

The Silver Surfer example is interesting. The Surfer is/was, arguably, the most powerful Marvel superhero ever. In his first series, many of his conflicts involved interacting with normal humans and learning about the world. But this also required that he hold back his power. Initially, when the series started, we were actually led to believe that the Surfer had been seriously depowered by Galactus. Stan Lee also introduced Mephisto, a being whose power dwarfed that of the Surfer, to be the Surfer's nemesis. Mephisto was so much more powerful than the Surfer that the Surfer really stood no chance against him.

In later years, when the Surfer returned to space, he was constantly put into conflict with beings who were more powerful than he was. This worked, to a point, but it also undermined part of the appeal of the character, which was that the Surfer was almost in a class by himself, on a cosmic scale, when it came to raw power. To make him interesting, writers felt that he needed to be reduced in stature.

In recent years, the Surfer has been revitalized and actually increased in power. But he is no longer in his own book. Using him as a special guest star seems to work far better than trying to come up with ways to make him interesting in his own book.

[The Batman]

Still, if it only takes one panel for Superman to fly to outer space and punch out a meteorite, how many panels did it take him to stop that purse snatcher? After displaying the ability to see as far as Moscow and through walls, do you think there was ANYTHING more deserving of a megabeing intervening than a non violent purse snatching? It's not always about the physical conflict, but when there is a physical conflict it is. That goes for every story ever. If Rocky was about the best boxer ever beating a blind cripple it wouldn't have quite the impact, and the rumbles board isn't about "What would have a more comedic/dramatic impact?"

How many panels was the "fight" with the purse snatcher? Also, why do we think that the purse snatching was meant to be about physical conflict? Perhaps, it was instead meant to tell the reader something about Superman's character? That a guy that can do all these things, can punch through asteroids and fly across the galaxy, takes the time to help out with something as mundane as a purse snatching.

[The Batman]

I certainly agree that there are many ways to tell a Superman story and that the dramatic tension that makes the story interesting does not need to be based in physical conflict. But, at some point, it does - what makes Superman 'super" are his physical abilities. Then, the only way to create any dramatic tension is to pit Supes against foes who are actually a challenge to his physical abilities (like Darkseid) or to come up with lame plot devices that make Supes appear to be far more stupid or incompetent than he actually is. The other approach is to make him much weaker than he has been established as being - thus, the ludicrous bit in Sacrifice where, as others have pointed out, Batman survives an attack by an enraged Superman - a virtual physical impossiblity. Superman should have made Batman a smear on the wall in a nanosecond. The recent "World of Krypton" series so depowered Kryptonians in general that it's become a mystery why someone did not kill Superman ages ago.

It seems to me that the problem you're describing isn't so much Superman's power levels as it is lazy writing.

[Grazzt]

It seems to me that the problem you're describing isn't so much Superman's power levels as it is lazy writing.

The only problem is that you're attributing "lazy writing" to Greg Rucka, who has written some of the better Superman stories of recent years. See, even the good Superman writers have difficulties with his power level.

[The Batman]

The only problem is that you're attributing "lazy writing" to Greg Rucka, who has written some of the better Superman stories of recent years. See, even the good Superman writers have difficulties with his power level.

Most of the stuff from the New Krypton storyline that was sloppy was actually coming from James Robinson. Most of Rucka's stuff from World of New Krypton, from what I recall, played fair and made sense.

[Grazzt]

Most of the stuff from the New Krypton storyline that was sloppy was actually coming from James Robinson. Most of Rucka's stuff from World of New Krypton, from what I recall, played fair and made sense.

The other example was "Sacrifice", though, which was pretty much all Rucka.

[The Batman]

Well, then that story adds a black mark to Rucka's record. Even a good writer can have a bad, lazy day.

[greatmetropolitan]

Rucka didn't do Sacrifice all by himself, it was him, Verheiden and Gail. I'm pretty sure that it was made clear in the comic that Superman was always trying to fight the mind control stuff that made him attack Batman for the entire time, hence why Batman is not a red smear.

I agree with a lot of what has been said already - just give the hero a threat worthy of him. That threat doesn't have to be physical, Lex Luthor alone is proof of that.

In fact, look at one of the most critically acclaimed Superman stories of all time - All Star Superman. I don't think Superman threw a punch till the last issue or something, and it was wonderful. His enemy wasn't the thing he could punch, it was despair, mortality, fear. Superman himself works best as a mythical figure, larger than life. It's not hero vs villain, it's good vs evil. It's grand.

But yeah, no such thing as a character who is "too powerful" in fiction so long as the writer has half an imagination to come up with a threat.

[ShaunN]

Rucka didn't do Sacrifice all by himself, it was him, Verheiden and Gail. I'm pretty sure that it was made clear in the comic that Superman was always trying to fight the mind control stuff that made him attack Batman for the entire time, hence why Batman is not a red smear.

I agree with a lot of what has been said already - just give the hero a threat worthy of him. That threat doesn't have to be physical, Lex Luthor alone is proof of that.

In fact, look at one of the most critically acclaimed Superman stories of all time - All Star Superman. I don't think Superman threw a punch till the last issue or something, and it was wonderful. His enemy wasn't the thing he could punch, it was despair, mortality, fear. Superman himself works best as a mythical figure, larger than life. It's not hero vs villain, it's good vs evil. It's grand.

But yeah, no such thing as a character who is "too powerful" in fiction so long as the writer has half an imagination to come up with a threat.

I agree with all this, but this can't last forever. All-Star Superman works because it is a limited series. But Superman, as a character and a regular series, goes on and on. So what do you do to keep the character interesting?

I don't think that it is quite fair to simply attribute these problems to lazy writing. That is part of it, but I also see a frustration factor at work - Supes really is "too powerful." Coming up with ways to tone him down in order to put him in different kinds of stories ends up being either tedious or unbelievable. The only way around this is to severely limit the kind of stories he can be in - for example, when you're not putting him in stories that pit him against larger, abstract problems, then put him in stories where he is always fighting entities as powerful (or nearly as powerful) as he is. But any interactions with physically weaker characters are going to run into the problem we've been discussing.

[Tobias March]

I agree with all this, but this can't last forever. All-Star Superman works because it is a limited series. But Superman, as a character and a regular series, goes on and on. So what do you do to keep the character interesting?

I don't think that it is quite fair to simply attribute these problems to lazy writing. That is part of it, but I also see a frustration factor at work - Supes really is "too powerful." Coming up with ways to tone him down in order to put him in different kinds of stories ends up being either tedious or unbelievable. The only way around this is to severely limit the kind of stories he can be in - for example, when you're not putting him in stories that pit him against larger, abstract problems, then put him in stories where he is always fighting entities as powerful (or nearly as powerful) as he is. But any interactions with physically weaker characters are going to run into the problem we've been discussing.

Or perhaps promote Jimmy or Lois as the main character, with Superman viewed externally as this mythical force, seemingly all-powerful but humanised by the affection he inspires in his friends and loved ones.

[berk]

The problem isn't always with the absolute power level, it's more in the attitude towards the characters. Batman is as over-powered as Superman in a way, because writers and readers seem to have the same kind of ridiculously overblown reverence for the one as they do for the other.
This makes for bad stories because every other element - plot, dialogue, other characters, etc - is demoted to servicing that reverence. Which makes those stories dull, dull, dull.

[greatmetropolitan]

Or perhaps promote Jimmy or Lois as the main character, with Superman viewed externally as this mythical force, seemingly all-powerful but humanised by the affection he inspires in his friends and loved ones.

I kind of agree with this. Maybe not shift the focus away from Superman, but his supporting cast should definitely be employed in the situations that you can't use the man himself for. Street level stuff should be all Lois and Jimmy, maybe show Clark do some actual investigative reporting. Set these human stories against a backdrop of larger than life adventures and you've got yourself a deal. The dual identity should work for Superman, not just in the narrative sense, but in a more meta-narrative sense. The writers should use it to their advantage to really flesh out and add depth to the stories.

[dupersuper]

The problem isn't always with the absolute power level, it's more in the attitude towards the characters. Batman is as over-powered as Superman in a way, because writers and readers seem to have the same kind of ridiculously overblown reverence for the one as they do for the other.
This makes for bad stories because every other element - plot, dialogue, other characters, etc - is demoted to servicing that reverence. Which makes those stories dull, dull, dull.

I loved the attention the supporting cast got back in the early-mid 90s. Now they just seem to have a few staples every one expects to see, when they have any at all.

[ShaunN]

Or perhaps promote Jimmy or Lois as the main character, with Superman viewed externally as this mythical force, seemingly all-powerful but humanised by the affection he inspires in his friends and loved ones.

I think that this is a really good idea but, again, for how long could you do this? One of the best "Superman" stories I remember reading was his appearance in "Swamp Thing" where much of the story was about other people (including ST) reacting to the idea and image of Superman as opposed to the reality. A major part of the story was a group of reporters waiting around for Supes to appear and their various ideas/opinions about him - all of which Supes was hearing as he tries to prevent ST from killing Luthor. It was really well done and is one of the best depictions of Superman as a benevolent god that I can recall.

But,again, how long and how often could you do these kind of stories? A few years? A decade or so? The continuing nature of the Superman series requires that writers try new things and, inevitably, that leads to the problem we've been discussiong.

[ShaunN]

The problem isn't always with the absolute power level, it's more in the attitude towards the characters. Batman is as over-powered as Superman in a way, because writers and readers seem to have the same kind of ridiculously overblown reverence for the one as they do for the other.
This makes for bad stories because every other element - plot, dialogue, other characters, etc - is demoted to servicing that reverence. Which makes those stories dull, dull, dull.

I strongly agree with your comment on Batman. I certainly like the character, but he has been built up to the point that he has become a caricature. Indeed, Batman is central to some of the problems we've discussed simply because trying to make him credible in a world of superhumans means illogically reducing and downplaying the abilities of everyone else. Unless I'm mistaken, the "reverence" for Batman and the ridiculous inflation of the character started with Miller's "The Dark Knight Returns". So, in a sense, this is a relatively recent development. But you're quite right - the desire to revere the Bat works to the disservice of the character himself and everyone around him.

Where I would disagree, however, is that I do think with Batman the problem is, potentially, easily fixed. With Batman, one of the core elements of the character's appeal is that he is human and limited, but manages to do remarkable things anyway. The fantasy that "anyone can be Batman" plays into a lot of the character's popularity. Making Batman human again is something that could be done gradually and it would not at all conflict with the character's established physical abilities. There are clear and realistic limits to what a human being can do. Some fans would not like this, but it is hard to complain that Batman is not superhuman enough when he is not supposed to be superhuman at all.

With Superman, the problem is that his physical abilities are so overwhelming that, even at his minimum levels of power, he is difficult to limit. The Byrne revamp of Superman greatly reduced his powers and made him more "believable" -but even there, he was straining to lift mountains and taking a 40 megaton nuclear bomb in the chest without any ill effects.

I think DC has made a major and avoidable mistake with Supes - and where the "reverence" factor that you talk about kicks in - in that they have made the character the virtual pinnacle of physical power in the DCU. It's almost impossible for anyone to be stronger than Superman. As a result, that invites the inflation of Superman and undermines the possibilities of other characters.

[Pól Rua]

When you've got to the point that you can't overcome your suspension of disbelief when reading a fun Superman story or a goofy Flash story where he fights a crook with an arsenel of high-tech boomerangs or a baddie in a parka with a freeze gun, maybe the problem isn't the comic?
Yes, I'm aware there are lazy writers and I have no problem with heaping some of the blame on them... but readers who expect too much are part of it too.
If the lack of 'realism' is making these stories not fun anymore, then maybe it's time to read something aimed more at you, and leave the kid's stuff to the kids who still think Titano the Super-Ape and Doc Ock are cool, fun characters. Just 'cos you've outgrown it doesn't mean you need to ruin it for the next generation...

I'm not saying you have to, but maybe it's something to consider...

[Ziggy Stardust]

It's hard not to use Superman as the crux of this debate. While he is often tested, whenever some writer wants to bump up the awe-factor, they sometimes have him trounce his most mortal enemy or group of enemies by dropping a mental block or taking a sun dip. And so, afterwards, when the same villain appears and Superman struggles, Superman now appears.... dumb.

But, it's not just Superman. Thor has a history of remembering an obscure magical ability Mjolnir has. Silver Surfer powers up, etc, etc....

I guess the true test is the credibility of the villain(s) they face and the scope of their adventures.

[3D Master]

Look, in a fictional story in a medium with an unlimited effects budget, it is literally impossible for a character to be overpowered. I don't mean, "It's tough to do." I mean, it is not possible for a character to be overpowered in comics. That isn't a thing that can happen. A character can be too powerful to tell certain types of stories, certainly.

It's possible that an ultra-powerful character will have a bad writer, or will get a bad editorial mandate... but that happens to street level characters just as often, if not moreso, and no one gives a shit. I've yet to hear a coherent argument against overpowered characters in Marvel or DC, but it's one of the most common complaints I hear against an awful lot of characters. No reason is given, no defense. Just, "They're too powerful."

What does that accomplish? How is that constructive? What does that even mean?

Look upon The Sentry and his recent power up. He can now will himself back into existence after having every molecule of his body being destroyed. There's nothing left of him, not a single DNA molecule... and presto, he's back anyway. The same goes the likes of Wolverine in his various guises.

The moment you have characters that are so powerful you cannot even scratch them, you can't hurt them in any way shape or form, that can't be killed at all,

IT ELIMINATES ALL SUSPENSE AND DRAMA.

They're also not heroes. A hero is someone who does what it is right, even if it means risking life and limb. You have characters who never risk even a booboo, you don't have a hero, you have a guy walking down the street.

Now, I've heard people say; "you just need to switch the drama to the interpersonal", but there's one problem with that; if I wanted a soap, I'd go watch one, or get a slice of life manga at the manga store.

I want a super hero story, and that means heroes that are vulnerable, that can be hurt, that can be killed, that are not omnipotent and can do anything; because otherwise there is no suspense or drama.

[The Batman]

Honestly? You really believe that after all the countless encounters over the years, that this is the next story might be the one where Doc Ock is finally going to kill Spider-Man? Where the Riddler's finally going to best Batman?

[Calvin Government]

Look upon The Sentry and his recent power up. He can now will himself back into existence after having every molecule of his body being destroyed. There's nothing left of him, not a single DNA molecule... and presto, he's back anyway. The same goes the likes of Wolverine in his various guises.

The moment you have characters that are so powerful you cannot even scratch them, you can't hurt them in any way shape or form, that can't be killed at all,

IT ELIMINATES ALL SUSPENSE AND DRAMA.

They're also not heroes. A hero is someone who does what it is right, even if it means risking life and limb. You have characters who never risk even a booboo, you don't have a hero, you have a guy walking down the street.

Now, I've heard people say; "you just need to switch the drama to the interpersonal", but there's one problem with that; if I wanted a soap, I'd go watch one, or get a slice of life manga at the manga store.

I want a super hero story, and that means heroes that are vulnerable, that can be hurt, that can be killed, that are not omnipotent and can do anything; because otherwise there is no suspense or drama.

It doesn't eliminate all suspense and drama. It eliminates all suspense and drama BASED ON THE IMMEDIATE PERSONAL OUTCOME OF A PHYSICAL CONFLICT. The only thing that you lose by making a character utterly invincible and omnipotent - which no character in superhero comics is or even really approaches - is how much that one character will get hurt by a punch. Which is to say, you lose almost nothing at all, and what little you do lose is gained in other areas.

What's more, I have to challenge your very definition of heroism. A hero is not 'someone who does what it is right, even if it means risking life and limb'. That is an extremely simplistic, limiting definition. Heroism is about courage, courage of any kind. It's not about 'life and limb' and never was - it's about adversity. It can be physical, mental, emotional, whatever, and no kind is more inherently compelling than any other. Because it's all about drama.

Most problems cannot be solved with a fist, something more and more superhero comics at least admit. Even in the case of the Sentry, there will always be someone more powerful... and there will always be problems he just can't fix. He'll always survive, but so will everyone else. But he won't always succeed.

What you want isn't just a superhero story, it's a gritty crime superhero story. A superhero story is any story that uses the trappings of superheroes. It can be a drama, a romance, a comedy, a mystery, an action story - they're all possible, even easy, and they're all superhero stories.

[3D Master]

It doesn't eliminate all suspense and drama. It eliminates all suspense and drama BASED ON THE IMMEDIATE PERSONAL OUTCOME OF A PHYSICAL CONFLICT. The only thing that you lose by making a character utterly invincible and omnipotent - which no character in superhero comics is or even really approaches - is how much that one character will get hurt by a punch. Which is to say, you lose almost nothing at all, and what little you do lose is gained in other areas.

What's more, I have to challenge your very definition of heroism. A hero is not 'someone who does what it is right, even if it means risking life and limb'. That is an extremely simplistic, limiting definition. Heroism is about courage, courage of any kind. It's not about 'life and limb' and never was - it's about adversity. It can be physical, mental, emotional, whatever, and no kind is more inherently compelling than any other. Because it's all about drama.

That would be the same definition. If a character doesn't risk life or limb, it doesn't take any courage to do anything. Like a said: guy walking down the street. Hell, less, as a guy walking down the street can still die doing that.


Most problems cannot be solved with a fist, something more and more superhero comics at least admit. Even in the case of the Sentry, there will always be someone more powerful... and there will always be problems he just can't fix. He'll always survive, but so will everyone else. But he won't always succeed.

The guy WILLED HIMSELF back INTO EXISTENCE after Molecule Man DESTROYED EVERY SINGLE MOLECULE OF HIS BODY. Not even the ffing Celestials or Galactus will be able to touch him anymore:

Big beam of Celestial or Power Cosmic!

Sentry vaporized - but that's only so he can play mindgames. See, he already willed him back into existence. Watch him point one of his many myriad of powers, including a powerful version of Molecule Man's; and presto, Celestials and Galactus... gone.

In fact, the whole bit about him living one second in the future and such, makes him all but omnipotent.

If the Sentry doesn't succeed, it's either because he's an idiot, or an asshole who doesn't want to succeed. They pushed his power so far beyond anyone or anything else, it isn't even funny anymore.


What you want isn't just a superhero story, it's a gritty crime superhero story.

BS. I far from want a gritty crime superhero story. Marvel is all about gritty crime superhero stories, no scratch that, super villain stories, because I don't think there's a single hero left in that bunch. They're all villains just with different goals. And I do not read Marvel.