If JMS is right, why does Batman wear a cape?

[brettc1]

JMS has said of the costume that form follows function. Which seems a fair comment.

But why does Batman wear a cape?

Think about it. The guy stalks around the urban landscape like a ninja. How does that thing [and it is pretty huge depending on who draws it] not get snagged on rootop antennae, fire-escape ladders, gargoyles...?

How do you fight in it. Beating up street thugs is probably not that challenging anyway, but what about Killer Croc? Or Bane? I think you would have a lot easier time using martial arts techniques in a "Ms America bathing suit" than a Count Dracula costume.

And speaking of martial arts, dont its practioners usually dress in loose fitting clotes to give them greater freedom of movement. Skin tight pants would seem like the opposite of that. I guess Trinity in the Matrix got it wrong - which is kind of the point.

That's the thing with super-heroes. Once you start picking stuff apart for practicality or realism the whole genre just unravels. I mean, is it in any way realistic to think that Peter Parker just invented those web-shooters and the the formulae for his webbing out in the garage? That webbing concoction alone would probably win him a nobel prize.

I liked Gloria Steinhams point that the ancient Greeks fought in skirts. I dont remember anyone sitting in 300 watching the Spartans unleashing hell commenting that they looked like panzies.

The costume change is there, fine. But just tell us it was to get media attention and booste sales. Don't make up explanations about practicality or realism while Batman performs olympic gold medal acrobatics with a kite sail on his back. :cool:

[T.O.M.]

All but too true. Once you start with a little logic all superheros fall apart. It's getting lost in that kind of conversation is the trap you want to avoid.
Batman's still considered the biggest baddest boogieman of them all.
And you have legion upon legion of devoted followers that will defend him to the death as the greatest superhero of all time.
But to each his own, don't flame on message boards or forums. Just respectful disagree and move on.
Batman's cape is the same as Superman's cape.
A design element to convey motion.
Neither of them need it.

[burr787]

Bruce Wayne wore a cape to deflect bullets and hide in the darkness while Dick Grayson wears a cape to glide. Dick Grayson's cape is also detachable not to mention that both capes are flame resistant.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Three simple words:

Rule of Cool (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool)

[Gaelforce]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ne5Lb2SiFHg/Rp97heuvWjI/AAAAAAAAE6U/AMAz-flrX3s/s400/NO+CAPES!.jpg

[T.O.M.]

Bruce Wayne wore a cape to deflect bullets and hide in the darkness while Dick Grayson wears a cape to glide. Dick Grayson's cape is also detachable not to mention that both capes are flame resistant.

Early golden age Batman(before Dick Grayson) had two stiff wings on his back at first. It gradually became a cape or cloak in the first few months.
And it owns a debt to the Shadow,who owns a debt to Zorro, and the list can go on and on.
But Shadowy men in black is an old story idea.
And there was an old pulp character called the BAT, very similar. Hmm.

[zryson]

Well a cape is part of the scary bat costume to strike fear into criminals. I mean if you look at some aspects of the mythos it can fall into the ? category. Like Bruce seeing a Bat fly through the window -- and going thats it! I will become a Batman! I mean hes rich right and lives in a fancy mansion -- and he has bats that fly in through windows?

Also I have seen issues where Batman uses his cape to protect himself as well as glide to safety after his trusty batarangs fail.

[The Amazing Mike]

Bruce Wayne wore a cape to deflect bullets and hide in the darkness while Dick Grayson wears a cape to glide. Dick Grayson's cape is also detachable not to mention that both capes are flame resistant.

Exactly. It is practical.

[T.O.M.]

Yes,Yes this is all true. And that cape has come in handy in those instances.
Depending on the writer or artist it was up to them to see just how far it broke his fall or allowed him flight.
And "Rule of Cool" definitely applies to it.
Batman practically owns it!:cool:
And in a old Superfriends cartoon he broke his fall and kind of flipped and floated to the ground. But it may have been a part of the opening montage.

[americanwonder]

I don't mind so much if JMS wants to talk practicality while Batman wears a cape. For starters, JMS isn't writing Batman.

What gets me is that the redesign of the character that they are talking about still isn't practical.

Give it a try. Go get yourself one of those short jackets - they often fit a bit snug as that's the design. Now roll up the sleeves. And add shoulder pads. Then pick a fight and discover just how "practical" these new duds are with your arm movement.

Oh, but they have pockets. Because we all know that JMS would never write a character *cough*Spider-Man*cough*Superman*cough* whose costume was so impractical to not have pockets.

But, it allows her to blend in. This new world must love bling to not notice that gal in the golden tiara, the golden, stylized wrist guards, the golden belt, and the golden spur straps. Maybe she keeps all that in those pockets.

[Vakanai]

Capes and practicality depends entirely on the cape and the situation.
Does it detach? Does it blend in with shadowy backgrounds? Is it flame resistant?
There are ways to make capes practical. Least, depending on what's going on and what kind of cape works.

But yeah, WW's costume change certainly isn't practical. Then again, she's Wonder Woman. She doesn't need protection. The only thing concerning her various costumes to keep in mind as regards to practicality is to not give her high heels.
Or that belt that makes it look like it'll stab her if she bends forward at all.

[brettc1]

The points about the practical value of the cape are all well made, but they also serve to hightlight my first point.

If a guy with no super-powers can enjoy all the benefits and none of the draw backs of heroing in a cape, why cant a woman imbued with the powers of gods - or even the just the same extraordinary human development as Batman - do the same in a one-piece and boots?

[brettc1]

Three simple words:

Rule of Cool (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool)

Exactly.

If it looks good, nothing else need matter.

[Free-Man]

The points about the practical value of the cape are all well made, but they also serve to hightlight my first point.

If a guy with no super-powers can enjoy all the benefits and none of the draw backs of heroing in a cape, why cant a woman imbued with the powers of gods - or even the just the same extraordinary human development as Batman - do the same in a one-piece and boots?

If I'm remembering correctly, the initial interview from when the costume was first announced mentioned that there was a stealth aspect to it, particularly that the jacket could be used to hide the top with her symbols and such.

They briefly introduced a similar idea in Amazing Spider-Man a few years back (ironically, I think it may have even been JMS's run) where a tailor offers to make Spidey a reversable outfit that can turn into an unassuming jacket and pants combo.

[Alatheus]

I don't think JMS has any control over what Batman wears. You might have a point if he did and then didn't change his costume.








JMS has said of the costume that form follows function. Which seems a fair comment.

But why does Batman wear a cape?

Think about it. The guy stalks around the urban landscape like a ninja. How does that thing [and it is pretty huge depending on who draws it] not get snagged on rootop antennae, fire-escape ladders, gargoyles...?

How do you fight in it. Beating up street thugs is probably not that challenging anyway, but what about Killer Croc? Or Bane? I think you would have a lot easier time using martial arts techniques in a "Ms America bathing suit" than a Count Dracula costume.

And speaking of martial arts, dont its practioners usually dress in loose fitting clotes to give them greater freedom of movement. Skin tight pants would seem like the opposite of that. I guess Trinity in the Matrix got it wrong - which is kind of the point.

That's the thing with super-heroes. Once you start picking stuff apart for practicality or realism the whole genre just unravels. I mean, is it in any way realistic to think that Peter Parker just invented those web-shooters and the the formulae for his webbing out in the garage? That webbing concoction alone would probably win him a nobel prize.

I liked Gloria Steinhams point that the ancient Greeks fought in skirts. I dont remember anyone sitting in 300 watching the Spartans unleashing hell commenting that they looked like panzies.

The costume change is there, fine. But just tell us it was to get media attention and booste sales. Don't make up explanations about practicality or realism while Batman performs olympic gold medal acrobatics with a kite sail on his back. :cool:

[DjMichael691]

What is a bat without his wings? A rat??... Ratman... hmmm... doesn't really work as well. :cool:

[brettc1]

If I'm remembering correctly, the initial interview from when the costume was first announced mentioned that there was a stealth aspect to it, particularly that the jacket could be used to hide the top with her symbols and such.

They briefly introduced a similar idea in Amazing Spider-Man a few years back (ironically, I think it may have even been JMS's run) where a tailor offers to make Spidey a reversable outfit that can turn into an unassuming jacket and pants combo.

Maybe she should start wearing a big black cape. They are great for stealth...and just about everything else. :wink:

[Punjab]

You've got to hide your double-barrel twelve gauge somewhere...

Honestly, I think Batman's cape is far more practical than say, Superman's. The cape Batman wears completes him as a shadow of the night on many levels. Its intimidating, disguising, and most of all a cloak. Clumsy at times, perhaps.
Superman, however, just couldn't part with his blankey.

[Mat001]

JMS has said of the costume that form follows function. Which seems a fair comment.

But why does Batman wear a cape?

Think about it. The guy stalks around the urban landscape like a ninja. How does that thing [and it is pretty huge depending on who draws it] not get snagged on rootop antennae, fire-escape ladders, gargoyles...?

How do you fight in it. Beating up street thugs is probably not that challenging anyway, but what about Killer Croc? Or Bane? I think you would have a lot easier time using martial arts techniques in a "Ms America bathing suit" than a Count Dracula costume.

Batman's cape serves a purpose which is why it's practical for him. It's got triple weave kevlar and nomex, which protects him from bullets and fire. It intimidates criminals, allows him to blend into the shadows and allows him to slow his rate of decent when not relying on his jumpline. It can also detach if someone tries to use it as a weapon against him.


And speaking of martial arts, dont its practioners usually dress in loose fitting clotes to give them greater freedom of movement. Skin tight pants would seem like the opposite of that. I guess Trinity in the Matrix got it wrong - which is kind of the point.

Bruce's suit isn't made of latex. It's made of a light weight fabric that's tight on his body like a pair of tights worn in ballet. He also doesn't have to worry about his breasts popping out like Diana does.


That's the thing with super-heroes. Once you start picking stuff apart for practicality or realism the whole genre just unravels. I mean, is it in any way realistic to think that Peter Parker just invented those web-shooters and the the formulae for his webbing out in the garage? That webbing concoction alone would probably win him a nobel prize.

Which is why we have organic webbing in the films and for a time in the comics.

[Tiberious]

But why does Batman wear a cape?

He obviously hasn't had Alfred go to the dry cleaners and pick up his member's only jacket yet. :biggrin:

[bulldog_milt]

He obviously hasn't had Alfred go to the dry cleaners and pick up his member's only jacket yet. :biggrin:

Matches Malone is just around the corner...

[brettc1]

You've got to hide your double-barrel twelve gauge somewhere...

Honestly, I think Batman's cape is far more practical than say, Superman's. The cape Batman wears completes him as a shadow of the night on many levels. Its intimidating, disguising, and most of all a cloak. Clumsy at times, perhaps.
Superman, however, just couldn't part with his blankey.


LOL

Supes cape is not a handicap because he is super-powered.

In real life I dont believe you can tumble like someone from the Circ de Solaise wearing a billowing black air-foil. But we accept it because its Batman, and it looks great.

Diana is Wonder Woman, and her costume looked great. That is all that should be needed. :smile:

[coveredinbees]

Not everyone thought it looked great. That's why it changed. It also reflects the changes to the character.

[brettc1]

Not everyone thought it looked great. That's why it changed. It also reflects the changes to the character.

Not everyone maybe, but apparently an MTV poll found that almost 70% of those asked about it dont like the new one either.

And really, who was complaining?

Again, they can change the costume. Its been done before. But forget the explanations about who the old one was silly for fighting crime in. Pretty much every super-costume is.

[brettc1]

Here are some polls I found with a quick search. How reliable they are is anyone's guess, I admit.

http://polldaddy.com/poll/3412965/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/01/wonder-womans-new-costume_n_631759.html

http://splashpage.mtv.com/2010/06/30/poll-wonder-womans-new-costume-love-it-or-hate-it/

http://www.wired.com/geekdad/2010/06/a-new-wonder-woman/

http://fashionablygeek.com/costumes/poll-is-this-what-wonder-womans-new-outfit-should-look-like/

I should comment that I voted for the fan choice in the poll where it was offered. I had to admit it looked pretty good and yet very true to Diana's history.

[Finganforn]

Not everyone maybe, but apparently an MTV poll found that almost 70% of those asked about it dont like the new one either.

And really, who was complaining?

When MTV's polls become half serious polls that argument may start holding water...

[brettc1]

When MTV's polls become half serious polls that argument may start holding water...

Of the several polls I found online, only one gave the new outfit a majority thumbs up.

And thats not including the one here, where more disliked than approved, not counting the folks who had reservations.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=328531

[Wonder Watcher]

Three simple words:

Rule of Cool (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool)
Sounds about right.

[vitruvian]

And speaking of martial arts, dont its practioners usually dress in loose fitting clotes to give them greater freedom of movement. Skin tight pants would seem like the opposite of that. I guess Trinity in the Matrix got it wrong - which is kind of the point.

Skin tight can work just as well, as long as it's something more flexible than leather or PVC. Olympic gymnasts and other athletes do just fine in Lycra and Spandex. Just assume Batman's costume and Diana's new pants are as flexible as that.


I liked Gloria Steinhams point that the ancient Greeks fought in skirts. I dont remember anyone sitting in 300 watching the Spartans unleashing hell commenting that they looked like panzies.


I was the guy sitting there commenting that they did actually wear metal breastplates (cuirasses, technically) to go with their helmets, though. ;-)

Honestly, I would have been fine with a Wonder Woman redesign that went more classical, as in making her torso covered with a shaped and painted cuirass with the W or eagle symbol on it rather than just a corset or whatever she's got now, a metal-faced leather skirt, greaves instead of boots, bracers rather than bracelets, even a helmet, to look like a real mythological Amazon - but I suppose part of the idea with the costume they did use was that none of that would contribute to blending into an urban environment. Of course, why she'd dress in any sort of distinctive costume, rather than a variety of civvies, then becomes a good question, I suppose.

[brettc1]

Honestly, I would have been fine with a Wonder Woman redesign that went more classical, as in making her torso covered with a shaped and painted cuirass with the W or eagle symbol on it rather than just a corset or whatever she's got now, a metal-faced leather skirt, greaves instead of boots, bracers rather than bracelets, even a helmet, to look like a real mythological Amazon - but I suppose part of the idea with the costume they did use was that none of that would contribute to blending into an urban environment. Of course, why she'd dress in any sort of distinctive costume, rather than a variety of civvies, then becomes a good question, I suppose.

Oh you beat me to it. I had that thought last night...why wear a costume at all? Especially the tiara, thought perhaps she just takes it off and shoves in in the jacket - like Katana-space in Highlander.

Maybe when she is not heroing she puts on a pair of glasses and nobody recognizes her...

[carabas]

I guess Trinity in the Matrix got it wrong Trinity in the Matrix is made of pixels and treats the laws of physics as stricktly optional. She is literally using cheatcodes.
And she never actually wears a skintight, shiny latex-looking outfit in the entire film.

[bulldog_milt]

Trinity in the Matrix is made of pixels and treats the laws of physics as stricktly optional. She is literally using cheatcodes.
And she never actually wears a skintight, shiny latex-looking outfit in the entire film.

Really?

http://www.supershareware.com/images/screenshot/Free_Matrix_Code_Screensaver-27378.jpg

[carabas]

Really?

http://www.supershareware.com/images/screenshot/Free_Matrix_Code_Screensaver-27378.jpg

She's not actually wearing that. Her physical body is wearing whatever as she is put under, and it is her non-physical, non-subject to any laws of nature avatar inside the Matrix that looks like a fetish model.
Outfits like that probably don't even exist anymore in that ruined world.

You wear a t-shirt, your WOW character wears heavy suits of armour.

[bulldog_milt]

She's not actually wearing that. Her physical body is wearing whatever as she is put under, and it is her non-physical, non-subject to any laws of nature avatar inside the Matrix that looks like a fetish model.
Outfits like that probably don't even exist anymore in that ruined world.

You wear a t-shirt, your WOW character wears a heavy suits of armour.

Misconstrued what you meant...

[zryson]

Batman has used his cape in many different forms -- why a year or so ago he flew like a bat in the sky (such a cool look!) to surprise criminals. Likewise he has used his cape as a glider and to blind criminals as well as protect himself too.

[vitruvian]

She's not actually wearing that. Her physical body is wearing whatever as she is put under, and it is her non-physical, non-subject to any laws of nature avatar inside the Matrix that looks like a fetish model.
Outfits like that probably don't even exist anymore in that ruined world.

You wear a t-shirt, your WOW character wears heavy suits of armour.

True, it's only her 'avatar' that wears it, but the Matrix follows its standard physics model (meaning that it would restrict her movement as much as in the real world) except when the rebels are actively using their cheat codes. At other times, she is subject to the laws of nature as simulated within the machine. Just like a WOW character will be encumbered by that suit of armor unless it's a special lightweight magic armor.

[brettc1]

I think ultimately my original point was that there is no reason for Diana not to be able to superhero in a strapless bustier and hotpants, given what other folks are able to do while wearing equally outlandish outfits :wink:

[Electric i]

I think ultimately my original point was that there is no reason for Diana not to be able to superhero in a strapless bustier and hotpants, given what other folks are able to do while wearing equally outlandish outfits :wink:

Agreed. Nothing says "heroine" or "feminist" quite like dressing up like a teenage boy's masturbation fantasy.

[bulldog_milt]

Was it ever explained in the 'comic' why she is wearing that outfit? I know I've mentioned it might have been because of Steve having a photo/clipping of a pinup in his plane... But I don't know if anyone ever officially explained it in the comic... Anybody know?

[Free-Man]

Was it ever explained in the 'comic' why she is wearing that outfit? I know I've mentioned it might have been because of Steve having a photo/clipping of a pinup in his plane... But I don't know if anyone ever officially explained it in the comic... Anybody know?

The new outfit or the "classic" one?

Because the "classic" one has been subject to various ridiculous retcons. The Perez explanation was that Steve's mother Diana crash landed on the island and sacrificed her life to help the Amazons beat some monster. In honor of her, they decided to model their champion's outfit off of the U.S. Coat of Arms.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Agreed. Nothing says "heroine" or "feminist" quite like dressing up like a teenage boy's masturbation fantasy.

Now, now, let´s be fair.
I´m almost pretty sure teenage boys don´t have the monopoly on masturbating to half naked princesses who run around in star-spangled thongs.

[Ghostwise]

Think about it. The guy stalks around the urban landscape like a ninja. How does that thing [and it is pretty huge depending on who draws it] not get snagged on rootop antennae, fire-escape ladders, gargoyles...?

If you were an antenna or a gargoyle, would you *dare* snag Batman's cape ?


No, you wouldn't. Antennas and fire-escape ladders are a cowardly, superstitious lot.

[Adrian Tullberg]

Basically, it's one of the rules of camoflague; break up the human form.

Whan a thug in Gotham is looking for Batman, or a cop, he's intuitively looking for a human shape.

To distort the basic humanoid silhouette, there's nothing like staying still in the dark, with a large cape.

Here's (http://www.surplusandadventure.com/images/product/main/jackal_ghillie_suit.jpg) a (http://ratchetsnram.com/cat/images/27-171-336-400568.jpg) few (http://s2.hubimg.com/u/418209_f260.jpg) examples (http://ghilliesuitexpert.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/ultralight-ghillie-poncho.jpg) of what I'm talking about. Granted, they're for forest environments, but you can see what I'm talking about.

[brettc1]

Agreed. Nothing says "heroine" or "feminist" quite like dressing up like a teenage boy's masturbation fantasy.

Now now...whe should not make fun of Batman. His fans get so upset. :wink:

But seriously, there is nothing wrong with women looking sexy.

Or teenage boys masturbating. :cool:

[brettc1]

If you were an antenna or a gargoyle, would you *dare* snag Batman's cape ?


No, you wouldn't. Antennas and fire-escape ladders are a cowardly, superstitious lot.

LOL - that is the funniest thing I have read this week :biggrin:

[superchick]

Dick's Batman hates the cape AKA 'The kevlar ballgown'. To be honest I see Nightwing and his costume as more of a 21st century Batman, allowing the actual Batman to wallow in the nostalgia of fans

[vitruvian]

Dick's Batman hates the cape AKA 'The kevlar ballgown'. To be honest I see Nightwing and his costume as more of a 21st century Batman, allowing the actual Batman to wallow in the nostalgia of fans

Actually, not anymore. He's gotten quite used to using the thing as a glider in Morrison's run.

[bulldog_milt]

Actually, not anymore. He's gotten quite used to using the thing as a glider in Morrison's run.

But that was after he made his modifications to it... He shortened it, made it lighter and more usable in that sense - specifically for that purpose. That is why most artists now draw it with the shoulder piece seperate from the cape material... For Dick it works...

When he comes back I expect we might see something more like this:

http://pics.livejournal.com/icon_uk/pic/002z6g5a

http://www.alexrossart.com/galleries/dc/nightwing_full.jpg

Note: These are Alex Ross scetches...

[brettc1]

See for me, I just keep thinking "If it doen't look like its 10 feet long and equipped with its own portable fan system, it's not Batman." :wink:

[comicfangirl]

JMS has said of the costume that form follows function. Which seems a fair comment.

But why does Batman wear a cape?


The cape, well it's part of the act of being Batman, it is one of the many tools that transform the obessed and stubborn billionare into the Batman. The larger then life protector of Gotham City is partly an act and Gotham is the stage.



Think about it. The guy stalks around the urban landscape like a ninja. How does that thing [and it is pretty huge depending on who draws it] not get snagged on rootop antennae, fire-escape ladders, gargoyles...?


Gotham would not hinder her protector, doing his job, so of course the cape does not get snagged by anything on the roofs.

And besides since Batman does think of everything and has contingency plans for his contingency plans, he would simply come up with a fibre that doesn't get snagged.
:biggrin:



How do you fight in it. Beating up street thugs is probably not that challenging anyway, but what about Killer Croc? Or Bane?


Training. Hundreds of hours of training with the cape.
The current Batman actually dislikes the cape very much since he has a far more arcobatic aproach, but it can't be helped, the cape and cowl make the Batman in the eyes of others.



I think you would have a lot easier time using martial arts techniques in a "Ms America bathing suit" than a Count Dracula costume.


Easy? As if Batman would do easy. :eek:
Please, if protecting Gotham as an one man villiain force was easy, every Joe Doe could do it.
It's not easy to fight with the cape, but since the cape makes the Batman Bruce trained a few hours more, and now the cape doesn't hinder him anymore.
As if a simple cape could hinder him in his mission. Tsk.




That's the thing with super-heroes. Once you start picking stuff apart for practicality or realism the whole genre just unravels.


And what would be the fun in that? Without suspension of disbelive, comics don't work.




Don't make up explanations about practicality or realism while Batman performs olympic gold medal acrobatics with a kite sail on his back. :cool:

I suppose the DCU isn't known for a being a very realistic universe, so........

What I'm trying to say:
The cape serves many purposes for Batman, but as I understand it, at first it helps him to appear to be more than human.
More like a giant bat who protects Gotham those cowardly criminals learned to fear and avoid at all costs.
And it also helps him to cover his body shape to further hide his true identity when talking to Gordon or any of his informants in the streets.

As for Diana,to me her armor always symbolized her being an Amazon and to force peace she would have no problem to engage in a fight.

And since she is more than human with all her powers she can wear such bright colors and make herself a traget to draw agressors towards her.

Compared to Batman she can lead an open battle against oponents, while Batman has to use the element of surprise and all his gadgets and skills to make up for him being human without any superpowers.

And if the day comes when criminals will fear black leather jackets, then Bruce will retire the cape. So don't hold your breath.
:wink: