Did Doctor Doom cause the Civil War?

[Hindsight lad]

I apologize if this has been covered in another thread; I did a search and couldn't find anything.

Anyway, according to the Civil War issues of Wolverine, Nitro exploded and destroyed Stamford, CT because he was pumped full of mutant growth hormone or other stimulants by Walter Declun. Declun had taken control of Damage Control in a hostile takeover and allegedly amped Nitro so that Damage Control could clean up on contracts.

Now, Black Panther and Doomwar have established that Walter Declun is working for Doctor Doom. He handles procurement and the outfitting of minions and henchmen. This begs the question, was the destruction of Stamford and the subsequent unrest in the hero community all a plot orchestrated by Doctor Doom?

Now obviously, it could be argued that it wasn't, since Doom didn't really exploit the situation. But Doom has numerous schemes running at once, and usually takes the long view of things. Perhaps he laid seeds in the Civil War that will bear fruit years down the line.



For that matter, was it ever established how the Secret Invasion affected Doom and Latveria?

Hindsight lad

[Monty_Cristo]

didn't seem orchestrated. seemed like those supervillains were taken unawares by a bunch of fame-seeking amateur heroes.

[Expletive Deleted]

I suppose it could be something that someone down the line could retcon in, but it seems a little pointless this long after the fact.

As far as Secret Invasion goes, Doom was deposed by the Mighty Avengers before it started and didn't regain power until after it was over. So there wasn't really much going on in Latveria at the time.

[marvell2100]

I apologize if this has been covered in another thread; I did a search and couldn't find anything.

Anyway, according to the Civil War issues of Wolverine, Nitro exploded and destroyed Stamford, CT because he was pumped full of mutant growth hormone or other stimulants by Walter Declun. Declun had taken control of Damage Control in a hostile takeover and allegedly amped Nitro so that Damage Control could clean up on contracts.

Now, Black Panther and Doomwar have established that Walter Declun is working for Doctor Doom. He handles procurement and the outfitting of minions and henchmen. This begs the question, was the destruction of Stamford and the subsequent unrest in the hero community all a plot orchestrated by Doctor Doom?

Now obviously, it could be argued that it wasn't, since Doom didn't really exploit the situation. But Doom has numerous schemes running at once, and usually takes the long view of things. Perhaps he laid seeds in the Civil War that will bear fruit years down the line.



For that matter, was it ever established how the Secret Invasion affected Doom and Latveria?

Hindsight lad

It's possible. But he couldn't know that Steve would refuse or that Tony would take over. Also an after effect of Tony taking over SHIELD was the removal of Doom from Latveria. He couldn't have anticipated that either.

[Iron Maiden]

Somehow, I am getting the impression that Declun has only very recently started working for Doom. Didn't Wolverine put out his eyes or something like that? Maybe Doom did some kind of quid pro quo with Declun....I will give you your vision back, cybernetically if you work for me.

(Also by coincidence, Nitro ended up in a dungeon in Latveria, probably brought there for safekeeping by Namor) Latveria was pretty vulnerable since Doom was incarcerated at the time the Skrull's made their big move but we never saw any interest by the Skrulls in making a move there.

[Alan2099]

didn't seem orchestrated. seemed like those supervillains were taken unawares by a bunch of fame-seeking amateur heroes.
I must have missed that issue. Did it happen before or after they fought the New Warriors?

[jackolover]

I apologize if this has been covered in another thread; I did a search and couldn't find anything.

Anyway, according to the Civil War issues of Wolverine, Nitro exploded and destroyed Stamford, CT because he was pumped full of mutant growth hormone or other stimulants by Walter Declun. Declun had taken control of Damage Control in a hostile takeover and allegedly amped Nitro so that Damage Control could clean up on contracts.

Now, Black Panther and Doomwar have established that Walter Declun is working for Doctor Doom. He handles procurement and the outfitting of minions and henchmen. This begs the question, was the destruction of Stamford and the subsequent unrest in the hero community all a plot orchestrated by Doctor Doom?

Now obviously, it could be argued that it wasn't, since Doom didn't really exploit the situation. But Doom has numerous schemes running at once, and usually takes the long view of things. Perhaps he laid seeds in the Civil War that will bear fruit years down the line.



For that matter, was it ever established how the Secret Invasion affected Doom and Latveria?

Hindsight lad

All good points. I would say DOOM's fruit ripened about the time Siege began and the super heroes were at their lowest and most vulnerable, so he began to implement his attack on Wakanda. Unfortunately, the Siege didn't put paid to the super humans, and they became available for the DOOMWAR after Siege.

DOOM was in prison in the Secret Invasion, so when he was released by Osborn, he got a visit from Morgana Le fey, and destroyed all the Skrulls in Latveria. DOOM just rebuilt the castle with a Tome Platform.

[jackolover]

Somehow, I am getting the impression that Declun has only very recently started working for Doom. Didn't Wolverine put out his eyes or something like that? Maybe Doom did some kind of quid pro quo with Declun....I will give you your vision back, cybernetically if you work for me.

(Also by coincidence, Nitro ended up in a dungeon in Latveria, probably brought there for safekeeping by Namor) Latveria was pretty vulnerable since Doom was incarcerated at the time the Skrull's made their big move but we never saw any interest by the Skrulls in making a move there.

And Namor never ripped the skin off Nitro's flesh, either, as predicted by Atlantean justice. It could be possible Namor collected their accomplice, Nitro, and he held Nitro in safe keeping till he could be transferred to Doom's castle. But that would be far too wide a conspiracy to have DOOM and Namor masterminding it?

[XPac]

I certainly don't think at the time that was the intent of Civil War, and marvel sort of said that.

But this stuff at times does get retconned. The Crossing for example, retconned Pym slapping Jan as something caused by Kang (though Busiek would retcon the retcon away). So it's possible that someone could connect the dots back to Doom since the opening certainly is there.

Until someone says it's a Doom plot, I'll assume it wasn't. Still, it's a fun avenue to consider. If nothing else, I would assume Doom would get a chuckle over people like Stark and Reed becoming villified by their peers. One of the best lines I've ever seen Bendis put out was him telling Stark that more people hate Stark than him. It was funny because it was true (in a fashion anyways).

But then again, maybe it makes sense. Reed calculations seem to indicate that all that stuff was necessary. Why wouldn't Doom in theory come to the same conclusion? He just came up with a way to get Reed and Stark to do what he felt needs to be done.

[Brother Justin Crowe]

I present to you a complete list of the people responsible for orchestrating the Civil War:

The Freemasons
The Space Ants
Calvin Coolidge
Jack the Ripper
Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid
Walter Sobchak
The Mormon Church
The National Rifle Association
Jenna Elfman
Universal Studios
Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band
The Mafia (Not the real one, but the one from The Boondock Saints.)
The Heretofore Unknown Coalition of American Homeless Persons
Opus Dei
Majestic 12
The Child of the Ghost of Edgar Allan Poe and the Ironically Reanimated Corpse of Mary Shelley
The Gap
Gordon Brown
Ellen Pompeo
The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences
The Hosts of The View
G. Gordon Liddy's Killer Sentient Pianowire

And now you know. Don't ever forget.

[doctormistermaster]

I remember during Civil War some people guessing that Loki was behind the events, since Thor seemed to be returning I had high hopes. Then we got a Thor clone and a strange story about Doom coming out of hell to give up on trying to get Mjolnir

[Brother Justin Crowe]

And lest we forget their terrible leader...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FCkxy29UskE/RjOAfOGKg2I/AAAAAAAAAv4/EfPPX_eMekQ/s200/clippy.png

He cannot be killed.

[XPac]

I remember during Civil War some people guessing that Loki was behind the events, since Thor seemed to be returning I had high hopes. Then we got a Thor clone and a strange story about Doom coming out of hell to give up on trying to get Mjolnir

Yeah, there were a few times I wondered if Miriam Sharpe wasn't someone like Mephisto or Loki pulling the strings. She seemed to be the devil (or angel depending on how you look at it) pushing Stark anytime he got hesistant over what he was doing.

[Iron Maiden]

And lest we forget their terrible leader...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FCkxy29UskE/RjOAfOGKg2I/AAAAAAAAAv4/EfPPX_eMekQ/s200/clippy.png

He cannot be killed.


Heh.... I think the real culprit is whoever is running Charlie Sheen's cars off the cliff on Mulholland Drive.

[doctormistermaster]

Yeah, there were a few times I wondered if Miriam Sharpe wasn't someone like Mephisto or Loki pulling the strings. She seemed to be the devil (or angel depending on how you look at it) pushing Stark anytime he got hesistant over what he was doing.

I hate how speculation more often than not ends up more interesting than the actual story.

[Brother Justin Crowe]

Heh.... I think the real culprit is whoever is running Charlie Sheen's cars off the cliff on Mulholland Drive.

http://www.ninthlink.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/david-lynch-headshot02-299.jpg

This man, perhaps?

[Hindsight lad]

http://www.ninthlink.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/david-lynch-headshot02-299.jpg

This man, perhaps?

Well, he is a bartender.

Hindsight lad

[Iron Maiden]

Well, he is a bartender.

Hindsight lad

I just remember him for Twin Peaks...never did see Mulholland Drive.

[satchmo the dragon]

In x factor they said Layla was telling Doom the future for a year, maybe that is how he knew to set Nitro up with amped powers. Not sure what his aims are, because all of the outcomes of Civil War have been retconned back to the status quo.

[Nefarius]

Let's not forget that Doom was in Hell when Civil War started and his return was in the middle/ending of this event.Although,it would be interesting to have Doom having a backup plan to divide heroes in case someone killed Doom.

Also,i think that i would be interesting if it was Loki all along.Remember that SHRA was first appeared in Acts of Vengeance crossover and Loki's suggestion about creating an event similar as Stamford for the beginning of Siege,maybe Miriam Sharpe was Loki in disguise.

[mikekerr3]

didn't seem orchestrated. seemed like those supervillains were taken unawares by a bunch of fame-seeking amateur heroes.

It might help ifd you read the New Warriors books, since they were fairly experience heroes who had saved the planet a few times and had been aroundthe MU for many years. Just because Millar doesn't seem to read Marvel comics that doesn't mean the rest of us should ignore continuity. Namorita has been around sinc the early 70's and the others since the 80s.

[mikekerr3]

I must have missed that issue. Did it happen before or after they fought the New Warriors?

LOL quoted for truth:biggrin::wink::biggrin:

[jackolover]

I suppose it could be something that someone down the line could retcon in, but it seems a little pointless this long after the fact.

As far as Secret Invasion goes, Doom was deposed by the Mighty Avengers before it started and didn't regain power until after it was over. So there wasn't really much going on in Latveria at the time.

Also, you would think the Skrulls would have targetted the most badass super humans on the planet, and to not have any intell on the Black Panther was poor planning. The Skrulls should have replaced Namor, Doom, Scott Summers, and the Leader, as well as Richards, Strange and Prof X. (They at least replaced Black Bolt). Whether Doom was a captive at the time of the Invasion would not have been significant, but actually replacing Doom would have been a major achievement if Doom could not detect them. It would be interesting if Doom had been able to detect Super Skrulls before they attacked him.

As to the possibility that Declun was under instructions from Doom to pepper the villains with super MGH, I still think Declun was acting alone on the premise that more damage made more money for Damage Control and increased their bank. If Doom knew nothing of Decluns plans and the CW was the result, would Doom murder Declun for putting the super humans in a position to be able to confront Doom and arrest him? (Because that was the result of the CW). I don't think Doom could anticipate that he would be incarcerated, or that the Skrull invasion would release him.

[jackolover]

Somehow, I am getting the impression that Declun has only very recently started working for Doom. Didn't Wolverine put out his eyes or something like that? Maybe Doom did some kind of quid pro quo with Declun....I will give you your vision back, cybernetically if you work for me.

I suppose it's possible that Declun is only a recent acquisition of Dooms, but I get a distinct impression that Doom's enterprises have been functioning for a very long time, and Declun's code name seems to be something a lot of villains are familiar with. Note that Declun hired villains to keep the Wakandan attacks occupied, so is possible, that Declun had been doing this before Doom War?


(Also by coincidence, Nitro ended up in a dungeon in Latveria, probably brought there for safekeeping by Namor) Latveria was pretty vulnerable since Doom was incarcerated at the time the Skrull's made their big move but we never saw any interest by the Skrulls in making a move there.

This always made me suspicious. The connection between Namor and Doom is very mysterious and since the Intelligencia became known, there has been a niggling feeling at the back of my mind that we are seeing some wheels within wheels going on here, that Marvel just hasn't defined yet. Why would Namor bring Nitro to Latveria where Declun was connected?
Guggenheim's Namor (from CW:Wolverine) was portrayed as this mastermind, Doom had already made contact with Loki and the Red Skull. Maybe there has been another villain Intelligencia at play here all along, and Norman Osborn was lucky enough to have got some of them in the same room as his Cabal?

[Iron Maiden]

I suppose it's possible that Declun is only a recent acquisition of Dooms, but I get a distinct impression that Doom's enterprises have been functioning for a very long time, and Declun's code name seems to be something a lot of villains are familiar with. Note that Declun hired villains to keep the Wakandan attacks occupied, so is possible, that Declun had been doing this before Doom War?

Oh, there's some evidence that Doom's enterprises have been there for many years. Back in FF#196-200, Reed was working for a company called Cynthian Associates (undoubtedly named for Doom's mother) and didn't realize that he was really working for Doom. Maybe they became so complicated that Doom, once he returned from Hell, needed someone to manage them. I suppose it's might be significant that Doom did once use Damage Control's services in a McDuffie mini-series. I don't know if we will ever know for sure when Walter entered the picture. Was his firing/discharge from Damage Control ever shown?




This always made me suspicious. The connection between Namor and Doom is very mysterious and since the Intelligencia became known, there has been a niggling feeling at the back of my mind that we are seeing some wheels within wheels going on here, that Marvel just hasn't defined yet. Why would Namor bring Nitro to Latveria where Declun was connected?
Guggenheim's Namor (from CW:Wolverine) was portrayed as this mastermind, Doom had already made contact with Loki and the Red Skull. Maybe there has been another villain Intelligencia at play here all along, and Norman Osborn was lucky enough to have got some of them in the same room as his Cabal?

I'd like to think that is true but my guess is that once Bendis had his mind set on the members of the Cabal, there was seldom any reference to these earlier alliances established by Doom. Osborn was going to get the big push and that settled that. Notice how in Doomwar they quickly got rid of Namor even though both Black Panther and Namor discussed the Cabal. Now Namor is totally out of the loop in Doomwar. At the very least, he may have either asked BP to join without clearing it with Osborn or a far more sinister possibility is that he set BP up for Doom to finish off. Honestly though, I think they just hope that readers have forgotten about the meeting between Namor and T'Challa that Hudlin wrote.

[jackolover]

Oh, there's some evidence that Doom's enterprises have been there for many years. Back in FF#196-200, Reed was working for a company called Cynthian Associates (undoubtedly named for Doom's mother) and didn't realize that he was really working for Doom. Maybe they became so complicated that Doom, once he returned from Hell, needed someone to manage them. I suppose it's might be significant that Doom did once use Damage Control's services in a McDuffie mini-series. I don't know if we will ever know for sure when Walter entered the picture. Was his firing/discharge from Damage Control ever shown?.

CW:Wolverine #47, page 16, The director got enough votes on the board to oust Declun, but Declun said, "Over my dead body" and Wolvy came in at that moment.






I'd like to think that is true but my guess is that once Bendis had his mind set on the members of the Cabal, there was seldom any reference to these earlier alliances established by Doom. Osborn was going to get the big push and that settled that. Notice how in Doomwar they quickly got rid of Namor even though both Black Panther and Namor discussed the Cabal. Now Namor is totally out of the loop in Doomwar. At the very least, he may have either asked BP to join without clearing it with Osborn or a far more sinister possibility is that he set BP up for Doom to finish off. Honestly though, I think they just hope that readers have forgotten about the meeting between Namor and T'Challa that Hudlin wrote.

Namors offer for T'Challa to join the Cabal may have been for when Doom was going to make his move and is kicked off the Cabal by the Sentry. So instead of the Taskmaster being brought in by Osborn, Namor would bring in T'Challa and say the vacancy has already been filled? Which then raises the question, how committed were Doom and Namor to each others causes? But as we have seen in Black Panther #1, Doom didn't wait for the crisis of DR:Cabal, because once Doom knew T'Challa wouldn't be his relacement when DR:Cabal made Doom exit, Doom's hand was forced, and Doom had to move on T'Challa. If T'Challa had joined the Cabal, would Doom have stopped his push against Wakanda?

[Monty_Cristo]

It might help ifd you read the New Warriors books, since they were fairly experience heroes who had saved the planet a few times and had been aroundthe MU for many years. Just because Millar doesn't seem to read Marvel comics that doesn't mean the rest of us should ignore continuity. Namorita has been around sinc the early 70's and the others since the 80s.

they were being idiots and paid for it with their lives. compared to other hero groups, they are amateurs. just as the Warriors would consider the JLA to be a bunch of amateurs.