Do you think Nightcrawler came to accept and endorse Cyclops' actions?

[pryde15]

But like I said, what sort of pertinent information on "the effects on the human body when ones' heart is fused to a metal arm through interdimensional teleportation" could someone with EMT certification could provide?

I should write a thesis on it and that way no writer will ever make this mistake ever again.

You could look it up on the science of the X-Men!

[fortyseven]

You could look it up on the science of the X-Men!

OMG I'm going to get out my copy! BRB if I find any pertinent information.

[Waterlily]

The scene wasn't about representing complete medical accuracy of a demonic mutant teleporter vs. killer robot guy or heroic measures to resuscitate a fallen comrade. I really doubt a scene showing Hope checking his airway, trying to figure out how to give chest compressions to him when he had arm fused into and sticking out of his chest would be dramatic or effective. It would be comical.

Personally, it doesn't bother me that no one attempted cpr on what was his corpse because he was confirmed dead. The generic hero-saves-the-girl-is-!mortally-wounded!-has-last-words-berfore-dying motion of it does bother me, a little, but not as much as I thought it would.

Kurt came to believe that saving Hope would save mutantkind and, so, he saved her. I doubt that really answers the initail query of the OP, but that's all I have to say regarding this.

[fortyseven]

Well. I've looked it up. There's not really anything about Nightcrawler fusing with another object.

HOWEVER, I did find this little gem.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y98/travo_89/kurtspowerlimit.jpg

Kurt killed himself. Bastion just helped. Kurt pushed his powers so much farther than he had ever done before, knowing the risks. He died a true hero.
And no amount of research the writers could have done on "death by teleporting too far" would have made their script more scientifically correct.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Kurt came to believe that saving Hope would save mutantkind and, so, he saved her. I doubt that really answers the initail query of the OP, but that's all I have to say regarding this.

Kurt will send postcards to Cyclops from heaven. There.

[quillero]

Kurt will send postcards to Cyclops from heaven. There.

Except that we know for sure that Kurt's in hell.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Except that we know for sure that Kurt's in hell.

I was taking a jab at the whole 'distorting or outright ignoring published material' tactic the Haterz! seem to favor so much.

Come on. Postcards. And Kurt breaking Wolvie's heart by not giving him the exclusive. :wink:

[Valerie]

The scene wasn't about representing complete medical accuracy of a demonic mutant teleporter vs. killer robot guy or heroic measures to resuscitate a fallen comrade. I really doubt a scene showing Hope checking his airway, trying to figure out how to give chest compressions to him when he had arm fused into and sticking out of his chest would be dramatic or effective.

But what would have enabled me to suspend disbelief and remain convinced that the other characters were heroes? Showing them standing around doing nothing? Or showing them making some attempt- even if it's just showing they got him to the infirmary?

I don't want complete medical accuracy. I would have liked Mr. "Every Life Matters" Summers to be shown trying (even if in vain) to prevent the loss of another life for which he, as team leader, is responsible.

[Optic Rage!]

I think all of this can be summed up in one picture.

NSFW

http://rule34-images.paheal.net/b7b1e22a02c9e3c8a98935b49ef3b69f/436667%20-%20Cyclops%20Marvel%20Nightcrawler%20X-Men%20tranetrax.jpg

[quillero]

But what would have enabled me to suspend disbelief and remain convinced that the other characters were heroes? Showing them standing around doing nothing? Or showing them making some attempt- even if it's just showing they got him to the infirmary?

I don't want complete medical accuracy. I would have liked Mr. "Every Life Matters" Summers to be shown trying (even if in vain) to prevent the loss of another life for which he, as team leader, is responsible.

He was already dead when Scott got there, you one trick pony.

[Gene M.]

Did you draw that?

[Optic Rage!]

Did you draw that?

If i did, it would be me instead of Kurt.

[Gene M.]

If i did, it would be me instead of Kurt.
That's a relief.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

I can't help but be morbidly curious. I'm not actually going to try it out, but how the hell does one find these gems? Surely googling wouldn't do it, right?

[fortyseven]

I can't help but be morbidly curious. I'm not actually going to try it out, but how the hell does one find these gems? Surely googling wouldn't do it, right?

Me? I found "The Science of the X-Men" at a Chapters. I obviously bought it. :biggrin: However, I feel like I had once found a bunch of scans from the book online. Maybe try searching the title? There's a whole section about Cyclops that might interest you. :smile:

[Gene M.]

I just typed "nightcrawler second coming" into Google. There was a nude shot on page one.


Me? I found "The Science of the X-Men" at a Chapters. I obviously bought it. :biggrin: However, I feel like I had once found a bunch of scans from the book online. Maybe try searching the title? There's a whole section about Cyclops that might interest you. :smile:
I think he was talking about the dick pics.

[Valerie]

Me? I found "The Science of the X-Men" at a Chapters. I obviously bought it. :biggrin:

I have that book, too!

[fortyseven]

I have that book, too!

I love it! It's so much fun! :smile:

[Waterlily]

But what would have enabled me to suspend disbelief and remain convinced that the other characters were heroes? Showing them standing around doing nothing? Or showing them making some attempt- even if it's just showing they got him to the infirmary?

I don't want complete medical accuracy. I would have liked Mr. "Every Life Matters" Summers to be shown trying (even if in vain) to prevent the loss of another life for which he, as team leader, is responsible.

We're meant to see Kurt as the hero. The X-Men arriving to find him dead, and they do know he's dead, are meant to be seen as horrified and in shock.

I really didn't need nor want to see Scott going, "Don't you die on me, Kurt!" when he knows Kurt's already dead.

[Valerie]

We're meant to see Kurt as the hero. The X-Men arriving to find him dead, and they do know he's dead, are meant to be seen as horrified and in shock.

How do they know he's dead? Nobody checked his pulse, and Emma, despite being telepathic, is medically unqualified to make any such pronouncement. And again, brain death tends not to happen that quickly judging by the severity of the injuries that were shown.

Fundamental of storytelling is to show, rather than tell.

[LordAllMighty]

If i did, it would be me instead of Kurt.

Call me when u get time...lol

I'm joking here people...maybe...lol

[Goshin]

Kurt should have stayed home. Didnt he learn his lesson the last time he fought Bastion?


http://www.uncannyxmen.net/images/spotlight/nightcrawler15.jpg

[Starfish]

Man, I haven't seen such desperate attempts to rationalize awful storytelling since Terminator Salvation came out. It's epic.

Don't people have confidence in their own taste anymore? What's wrong with just saying "yes, it's a pretty contrived and illogical story, but I like it anyway because I think it's fun"?
There's nothing wrong with that. Everyone has guilty pleasures. No one should let others tell them what to like.

No, obviously, if you like a story, it automatically has to be a flawless gem of modern storytelling, devoid of any glaring plot holes or idiotic characterization. Because god forbid someone catches you enjoying something mediocre. We can't have that, can we?

People like Second Coming so far? That's awesome for them. They shouldn't let anyone tell them they're wrong for liking something. Does that make Second Coming any better, though? Definitely not.
So instead of forming fanboy-defense-squads to protect the poor writers and publishers, going out of their way to rationalize things that make no sense at all, people should grow a backbone and say "Why yes, it's a pretty awful story. I still like it though, so shut up."

Is Armageddon one of the most ridiculous pieces of drek ever thrown on the big screen? Definitely. I still have a blast watching it. See? It's not that hard.

[timbox]

Well it really comes down to the stupid points brought up by detractors. “Second Coming makes no sense. Why doesn’t Bastion just poison the SCM and kill all the X-Men?” “Why don’t the X-Men all split up and each go find their own cave to hide in for the next 14 years? Bastion will never find them all!”

Who cares if the story makes perfect, logical sense if it’s not interesting and entertaining?

[Starfish]

Well it really comes down to the stupid points brought up by detractors. “Second Coming makes no sense. Why doesn’t Bastion just poison the SCM and kill all the X-Men?” “Why don’t the X-Men all split up and each go find their own cave to hide in for the next 14 years? Bastion will never find them all!”
Who cares if the story makes perfect, logical sense if it’s not interesting and entertaining?

And therein lies the challenge faced by every writer since the start of the profession: Coming up with a story that is both entertaining and sticks to its internal logical. Ejecting one for the sake of the other is not enough.

It's an excuse used to rationalize even the stupidest plot and getting away with putting minimal effort into it. Who cares if it makes sense as long as it's fun, right? Michael Bay makes a living by that credo.

And so far, I haven't seen any good explanations being brought up for some of the huge wallbangers that happened in this event. Why did Scott decide to send a team into the future again, when sending one into the past instead would be the obvious response?
Oh right, it wouldn't be fun. Hm, then maybe the writers shouldn't have given the heroes access to time travel in the first place if they don't know how to avoid such plot holes.

[Seresecros]

If the story isn't interesting and entertaining, then you may as well have it be logical, timbox.

[timbox]

Why did Scott decide to send a team into the future again, when sending one into the past instead would be the obvious response?

These "plot holes" make even less sense. Read about how time travel works in a multiverse then come back with another.

[Starfish]

These "plot holes" make even less sense. Read about how time travel works in a multiverse then come back with another.

No need to, X-Force recently showed exactly how it works within the setting right now. Go back to a previous point in time and change the present by altering history. They used it to save Boom Boom from Leper Queen by returning to a point in time before she could shoot her.

Bastion's plan, the very foundation and premise for this entire storyline, relies on the fact that you can change the present by travelling back in time. If you couldn't, his plan to kill Hope would probably be the most retartded strategy ever devised and make this entire event pointless.

So, yes, X-Force knows that you can change the present by travelling to the past, because they did that very thing a few issues ago. So, what reason would they have to believe it couldn't work again, especially since doing exactly that is the entire plan of their enemy?

Surely someone in that planning room would have at least raised the question about why not try something like that.

[timbox]

Bastion isn't killing Hope so he can return to his own time and have everything be fixed. He is killing her to prevent the same thing from happening in his current universe.

[Slant]

I think its more funny that the ones complaining about Second Coming the most are the ones who can't even get all the facts right about the story.

Complaining about Nightcrawler being sent when we've seen what happened to every teleporter, why they were where they were, and what happened to them, the time it took for the alpha team to get there when Nightcrawler died, complaining about Bastion going into the future rather than the past, etc. Its rather amusing.

[Gene M.]

I think its more funny that the ones complaining about Second Coming the most are the ones who can't even get all the facts right about the story.

Complaining about Nightcrawler being sent when we've seen what happened to every teleporter, why they were where they were, and what happened to them, the time it took for the alpha team to get there when Nightcrawler died, complaining about Bastion going into the future rather than the past, etc. Its rather amusing.
It really is sad. People will make up anything and apply any amount of Rumbles Board logic to try and debunk something they don't like. If your enjoyment of a book hinges on people you don't know writing a character you don't own in a way that appeases your every fanboy/girl whim, it's time to move on. Some people would just be better off dropping the books and writing fan fiction instead.

[Starfish]

Wow, all of that sounds almost like a mantra. "Nothing is wrong wth the story, it's just the haters hatin'; nothing is wrong with the story, it's just..." Yes, and criticism of any work is automatically a bad evil thing to do, because every critic out there obviously just doesn't like the stuff he's reading. That surely must be it. :wink:

And I had no idea that applying basic logic and common sense to a rather simple story has become such a despised thing to do. Here I thought that raising the question why trying a solution that obviously worked before, in the same book no less, wasn't even considered this time would be a valid point. No need to get up all in arms because of it.

But no worries, I'll remember to check my brain at the door and just enjoy the pretty pictures next time. Fortunately, there's still enough decent stuff around to read in the meantime. :cool:

[Slant]

Wow, all of that sounds almost like a mantra. "Nothing is wrong wth the story, it's just the haters hatin'; nothing is wrong with the story, it's just..." Yes, and criticism of any work is automatically a bad evil thing to do, because every critic out there obviously just doesn't like the stuff he's reading. That surely must be it.

You're the one dismissing anyone who thinks its a good story, with nothing other than blanket statements such as 'its not logical'.

And its not even about logic. Its applying you're own beliefs on how a story should go and criticizing what doesn't go the way you want, despite the fact that you're missing several details of the story.

[timbox]

And I had no idea that applying basic logic and common sense to a rather simple story has become such a despised thing to do. Here I thought that raising the question why trying a solution that obviously worked before, in the same book no less, wasn't even considered this time would be a valid point. No need to get up all in arms because of it.


In order for time travel to the past to be possible, we have to let go of our entropy-informed perception of time. We perceive time to move in one direction only—toward the future and that the movement from low to high entropy as the universe expands establishes the direction in which time flows. To understand the universe (or multiverse) as time-symmetric is a difficult concept to grasp. It is difficult to explain this arrow of time without assuming time-asymmetric boundary conditions, so trying to point out plot inconsistencies in an unknown universe is probably not a good idea. Microscopic laws of physics are essentially time-reversal invariant, but macroscopic thermodynamics exhibits a profound time-asymmetry; entropy typically increases in closed systems.

[Koni]

In order for time travel to the past to be possible, we have to let go of our entropy-informed perception of time. We perceive time to move in one direction only—toward the future and that the movement from low to high entropy as the universe expands establishes the direction in which time flows. To understand the universe (or multiverse) as time-symmetric is a difficult concept to grasp. It is difficult to explain this arrow of time without assuming time-asymmetric boundary conditions, so trying to point out plot inconsistencies in an unknown universe is probably not a good idea. Microscopic laws of physics are essentially time-reversal invariant, but macroscopic thermodynamics exhibits a profound time-asymmetry; entropy typically increases in closed systems.

Wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY_Ry8J_jdw)?

[Valerie]

It really is sad. People will make up anything and apply any amount of Rumbles Board logic to try and debunk something they don't like. If your enjoyment of a book hinges on people you don't know writing a character you don't own in a way that appeases your every fanboy/girl whim, it's time to move on. Some people would just be better off dropping the books and writing fan fiction instead.

The comics industry wouldn't be better off if customers dropped books.

And my enjoyment of a book hinges on good storytelling. If something I don't like happens in a book, it better be well-written. The characters in a superhero comic better at least be shown behaving heroically or at least like intelligent people with a shred of respect. Standing around gawking at your mortally wounded friend instead of helping or at least showing the body some respect is not an option. That is exactly where SC lost me, and I'd enjoyed it right up to that point.

As for checking brains at the door, I can only take Michael Bay in small doses. I expect better from comics, however, as unlike movies, I can take as much time as I need to thoroughly take the work in.

[timbox]

You don’t enjoy Second Coming because of one panel? You would have a completely different opinion if everyone scrambled around looking for a Band-Aid before Nightcrawler died?

[fortyseven]

Standing around gawking at your mortally wounded friend instead of helping or at least showing the body some respect is not an option. That is exactly where SC lost me, and I'd enjoyed it right up to that point.

That was the thing that made you drop SC? You don't think that it's a bit nit-picky? It was one scene, written by Fraction. I don't think Fraction is as bad as everyone says, but the funeral issue was horrible. So many people hated it, but they aren't dropping the entire crossover because of it.

[pryde15]

That was the thing that made you drop SC? You don't think that it's a bit nit-picky? It was one scene, written by Fraction. I don't think Fraction is as bad as everyone says, but the funeral issue was horrible. So many people hated it, but they aren't dropping the entire crossover because of it.

She hasn't talked about anything else for the last month, she has transcended nit-picky.

[Starfish]

You're the one dismissing anyone who thinks its a good story, with nothing other than blanket statements such as 'its not logical'.

If you look at one of my earlier posts in this thread, you'll see I said that everyone who enjoys this story is absolutely right to do so. The objective quality of a story and what enjoyment one gets from reading it are two very different things. That's why a story doesn't have to be flawless to be enjoyed. Some people will mind the flaws, others less so. That doesn't make them go away, however.


And its not even about logic. Its applying you're own beliefs on how a story should go and criticizing what doesn't go the way you want, despite the fact that you're missing several details of the story.

No, I'm criticising characters acting in a way and making decisions that are inconsistent with their characterization, abilities, and knowledge about the situation they're in. There have plenty of examples already given, so I'm not going to go into any more details again.
I have no beliefs on how the story should go, obviosuly, since I'm not the one writing it.


In order for time travel to the past to be possible, we have to let go of our entropy-informed perception of time. We perceive time to move in one direction only—toward the future and that the movement from low to high entropy as the universe expands establishes the direction in which time flows. To understand the universe (or multiverse) as time-symmetric is a difficult concept to grasp. It is difficult to explain this arrow of time without assuming time-asymmetric boundary conditions, so trying to point out plot inconsistencies in an unknown universe is probably not a good idea. Microscopic laws of physics are essentially time-reversal invariant, but macroscopic thermodynamics exhibits a profound time-asymmetry; entropy typically increases in closed systems.

Which is why it's important to set the rules your ficitional universe works by and stick to them. Leaving them vague just so you can change them to fit your story is bad form.
The problem lies more in the fact that they were able to save Boom Boom by employing a time-travel trick, which violated the rules the MU works by - most of time, anyway. It's true that if that hadn't happened, there'd be less of a problem now.
Which basically is my actual criticism: That no one spotted this glaring inconsitency when the story was planned or bothered to object. It just doesn't give the impression that a lot of effort was put into anything.

Anyway, we're obviously not going to convince each other (du'uh, we're arguing over the internet, after all :tongue:). You're enjoying the story - and that's perfectly fine, even though I still don't think it's a particular good one. Fortunately, one position doesn't rule out the other. :wink:

[fortyseven]

Which is why it's important to set the rules your ficitional universe works by and stick to them. Leaving them vague just so you can change them to fit your story is bad form.
The problem lies more in the fact that they were able to save Boom Boom by employing a time-travel trick, which violated the rules the MU works by - most of time, anyway. It's true that if that hadn't happened, there'd be less of a problem now.
Which basically is my actual criticism: That no one spotted this glaring inconsitency when the story was planned or bothered to object. It just doesn't give the impression that a lot of effort was put into anything.


You cannot go back in time to change the present (without the use of Doomlocks). That is a set rule in the marvel universe. Cable cannot go back in time to prevent Bastion from attacking the X-Men. It's not possible.
As for the Boom-Boom thing: The team left from the present and returned at the exact moment they left because of how Beast's timetravel devices worked. Boom-Boom never died in our universe, and was never going to died. All we saw was an alternate reality caused by the use of time travel where the team did not return to the present. K&Y used it to create suspense about whether or not she would survive, but following the logic of how timetravel works in the MU, Boom-Boom was never in danger of dieing because of the team never returning.

[timbox]

They didn’t change anything when they saved Boom Boom. They jumped before she got shot and they came back before she got shot. Anything that may have happened after they left never happened because they came back to the same instant.

[Valerie]

You don’t enjoy Second Coming because of one panel? You would have a completely different opinion if everyone scrambled around looking for a Band-Aid before Nightcrawler died?

Not just the one panel, no. Actually, that was the last nail in the proverbial coffin. I'd long suspected that all the real heroes in the X-Men were marked for death or departure, and a superhero comic is completely and utterly pointless without heroes.

[timbox]

Oh, I thought you said you had enjoyed it up to that point.

[Valerie]

Oh, I thought you said you had enjoyed it up to that point.

The story itself, perhaps, but I was not happy with Uncanny under Fraction, with the way Cyclops was touted as some brilliant leader when his decisions didn't really reflect that, when all the other characters were lobotomized to mindlessly accept Cyclops' direction without question or they leave in a hissy fit, when the much-touted "rotating cast" only meant occasional changes of wallpaper, etc.,. I had actually dropped Uncanny during the Sisterhood Arc, only buying an issue here and there if it looked interesting.

What I liked about SC was that more characters got more real panel time. It looked like there would be a real shakeup in the X-Men's leadership as people became aware the Cyke had withheld critical information and had also taken a dump all over his own principles as an X-Man, and (oh joy) Nightcrawler looked like he might stand up to Cyke about that.

The only think marketing the Big Death did was cause me to anticipate X-Force 26 not with eagerness, but outright dread. When I actually dread the next installment of what was for many years my favorite comic franchise, something very definitely is wrong. Then the funeral issue made it even worse- and it's been even more downhill from there in my opinion.

[Pixie_Solanas]

You are doing yeoman's work keeping this thread alive. Why?

[Gene M.]

Not just the one panel, no. Actually, that was the last nail in the proverbial coffin. I'd long suspected that all the real heroes in the X-Men were marked for death or departure, and a superhero comic is completely and utterly pointless without heroes.
R.I.P. Ariel and Vanisher: The real heroes in the X-Men.

[Nachturne]

This was an incredible read. Kudos to everyone involved!