Hawk and Dove

[Gail Simone]

Hawk is not Wolverine, I promise. ;)

Very, very interesting stuff comig with them. I think people will be surprised.

[CassandraL]

I'm honestly looking forward to your interpretation of Hawk that's more than the 2-Dimensional, 'I'm a jerk, I want to bash everyone because I am Dove's opposite rawr!'

[Larry Dixon]

I hope so. Hawk/Dove doesn't have to be a simplistic concept at all.

Hawkishness is expeditious; a sharp, fast strike to resolve a situation by force. A Dove approach might be to take a long, protracted and nonviolent action to resolve the same situation that a Hawk approach might 'solve' in a moment.

As someone once wisely observed, or maybe it was just me and I'm imagining someone smart said it, we are essentially primates; shaved apes who band together in little tribal groups, form our tiers of hierarchy, forage and fight and fuck and steal, and put all sorts of shiny trappings and elaborate hats on our inherently primate behavior.

We like violence, and drama, and blood and conquest and pain and all of that because it's part of our ape instincts. And we like comic books and superheroes, because, in a superhero world there is a story-and-setting justification for the violence we want to see anyway.

So yeah... there are opportunities for all sorts of morality plays with the hawk/dove concept. Of course, as someone who knows hawks (as in the real live birds), hawks live really peaceful lives up until the moment they don't. Then they're spectacularly deadly, and the next moment, right back to that serenity, and not really wanting to be bothered, and they have a very live-and-let-live philosophy.

I can certainly see a hawk philosophy of "Be violent now, thoroughly and quickly, so we can get back to the peace and quiet."

In many roleplaying games, I'd build a character who could drop an opponent in one or two rounds, not because I wanted to be uber but because I didn't want a goddamn two hour combat. I wanted it over with fast so we could get back to the roleplaying. :)

So if someone wants to enjoy the finer things in life, they'll want a conflict over as quickly as possible.

So far as I know, -everybody- who would encounter Hawk & Dove has worked with Batman, and Hawk's never gonna be as violent and aggressive as THAT guy, even if he tries. Hawk is someone with a "tendency," versus Batman, who's a force of nature when it comes to personal-level violence.

Of course, all birds are killers. The cutest fluffiest adorable cockatoo will bite a bug in half without a microsecond of hesitation. And, while doves are the "eternal victims" of the bird world, they're also not passive.

Anyway. Just random thoughts... it has been a rough night after a rough week and I am not at my best, but I am trying to hold it together well enough to at least make some comments on the boards.

[The Xenos]

I want to see Hawk all hyped up watching Fox News and Glen Beck. Or would that be too simple and obvious?

[Kevinroc]

Gail, are you going back to the original purpose of Hawk & Dove? With Hawk as the hot-headed conservative and the reasoned (but sometimes indecisive) liberal Dove?

It would be nice if Hawk and Dove could get back to what they were supposed to be. I can't think of a writer who has really been fair to both of them. Either Hawk is a complete violent maniac or Dove is a total wimp who can't do anything. I know you've lamented on conservative characters becoming "more liberal" as some kind of character derailment so that gives me hope that you'll do this concept right.

[Free-Man]

Are ya gonna have them at least mention what happened to Holly? I'm not a fan of having characters brood over dead loved ones, but is it even gonna be addressed that Dawn's sister was killed not that lot ago?

[KevinTBrown]

After reading Larry's post, I am now firmly convinced we need to see a Larry Dixon penned Hawk & Dove series. If anyone could get the characters righted, he could. (NO slight to Gail.) DC hurt the characters immensely by tying them into the "chaos and order entities".

[Den]

Hawk is not Wolverine? Thank goodness. Don't get me wrong, Wolvie is successful for a reason, but I grew tired of him before the 80s were done.


Hawk's in an interesting place. Right now, he's wearing a lot of hats: The 'dude' hat, the 'conservative' hat, and with so many others in Brightest Day showing one form of psychological scars or another, he might even be in the running for 'most damaged' at this point. Add to that his belief that "God needs a soldier" and you've got religion. No matter what he does from here on out, or how he acts, someone some where is going to read a message into the action whether Gail intended it or not.

I'm going to have to check myself from over analyzing things, I can tell :) But I think it is that damaged aspect that currently intrigues me most. The BoP often seems to have a theme about being a place to tend to the old spiritual wounds even as you kick ass and do good during it. I think Hawk is likely to do a few things that surprise us, and I don't just mean rash violent actions. I think it's going to be rare moments of open kindness that might come out of nowhere, and then he might quickly bury before anyone notices what he might see as a 'weakness'.

And, of course, if I'm guessing right, part of his story will be him learning that those moments of kindness are just as courageous as leaping into a firefight.

But it is just a guess.

In some ways, he is reminding me of Huntress when she was at her most damaged.

Poor Dawn, on the other hand, reminds me of a Doctor who's been sitting up with a patient non stop with no help. "Worn out" is one of the terms that came to mind when I saw her in this first issue. She's running around, constantly trying to reign Hawk in, to help him out. She knows he's hurting, and is trying to tend the wound, but she's only one woman. That's got to be draining as hell for her.

The BOP may end up seeming like a godsend to Dove. Suddenly she's got possible back up in fighting crime and helping Hawk. Good. She could use a break, and frankly, may have wounds of her own to tend with. I mean, geez, her sister died. The grieving process may have been done else where, but I haven't seen it. Then again, she maybe the sort to 'cope and cope quickly'. I'm not sure.

I've heard one or two complaints that she seems too meek, too passive, but the label she was given 'conscience' of the superheros has me thinking anyone who assumes she's going to be a push over is going to find themselves very frustrated. I suspect Dove is going to be "the quiet one" with additional adage "watch out for the quiet ones" coming up once in awhile. If she's going to be one who takes the high road, or even just points where the high road is in case others didn't see it, I can see the BoP taking turns in wanting to grit their teeth even if they concede she might have a point.

And , of course, part of the fun will be seeing how friendships (if any) form between Dove and the other gals. Zinda seems on a good possible start.

[Den]

I can certainly see a hawk philosophy of "Be violent now, thoroughly and quickly, so we can get back to the peace and quiet."


I agree, though among superheroes with a martyr streak (like Hawk may have) it could translate to "Be violent now, thoroughly and quickly, so OTHERS can have their peace, quiet, safety."

Hawk, I suspect, sees the world as embattled, under attack, and the only way to keep innocents safe from that battle is by taking the fight to the enemy non stop.
If that's the case, I don't necessarily agree with it, but it does show something of a selfless side.

[PatrickG]

We like violence, and drama, and blood and conquest and pain and all of that because it's part of our ape instincts. And we like comic books and superheroes, because, in a superhero world there is a story-and-setting justification for the violence we want to see anyway.


This whole post is insightful but it occurs to be that Hawk could have a kind of inner calm and serenity in the face of world's violent nature while Dove is the tormented one who worries.

Hawk strikes and doesn't give it a second thought and is peaceful and happy. Dove thinks constantly and is the one whose insides are chaotic as a result.

One could even argue that Hawk is the orderly one, the one at peace with the natural order, whereas Dove is the chaotic one, wanting something that isn't real and is ever-changing.

War is order. Peace is chaos.

Kinda fits with violent fascists imposing order and pacifists actually being the real $#!& stirrers who push for change but don't always have the answers for how to get there.

[JKCarrier]

The problem with Hawk and Dove in the past has been the tendency for the writers to pick sides. Conservative writers favor Hawk, liberals favor Dove, and whichever one the writer doesn't agree with gets portrayed as a schmuck. Ideally, they should both be equally sympathetic, and equally likely to be right in some instances and wrong in others.

[Larry Dixon]

Wow I didn't expect praise for what I said. Thanks! I try to be a good thinker but I seem to blow it these days more often than not. My brain is fractured.

My family line goes back many generations in the military, even Alanson Riverus Dixon, an officer prisoner who survived Andersonville. My grandfather was Major Jack Dixon, AAC then USAF, and my father? My father was a commando, counterterrorism and all that goes with it, for 26 years.

I have been asked how I became a writer and an artist with such sensitivity out of such a background. And I answer what my father answered when he was asked the same question: "He's what we were fighting for."

There are some people whose lives lead them to conclude that they best serve their family, their children, their world and themselves by being a combatant. It is not necessarily so that they are bloodthirsty people; in fact I can say that the special operations soldiers I grew up with were some of the most compassionate people I have ever known. Those empowered to take life gain an unique appreciation for life. They trained to kill as little as possible, knowing that every combatant they faced had innocent friends and family to go home to. Special operations is not the spray-bullets-kill-all it is in movies and games. It's surgical, for maximum effect from minimal impact.

My point is: just because someone uses violence it does not mean they are simpletons, nor that it is ill-considered, nor that it does more harm than non-violent methods.

It has been my experience that when writers use their characters as mouthpieces for politics, they fail, fail, and fail harder. The fail is because the political part gets forced in, with whatever character they have their hands on at the time, rather than coming from a character's motives and motivators.

We often forget, as writers, that while a character may come into panel for a few moments, they've lived their whole life up to those moments with all the complexity of any other person alive. A tertiary character might deliver one line, but they've had an entire life of decades up to that line. Getting a character to do or say something because "the story needs it right there" always rings hollow. It has to come from their life history, up to that point in time, to ring true.

And so, Hawk and Dove tend to fail, and fail hard, because there is a perception by many people that they exist to be political figures. I think this is a fundamental mistake. Just as liberal-versus-conservative and any X-versus-Y simplification does in politics, it dehumanizes people and makes them items to serve a function---not people. Good writers write people, not plots.

These days we all tend to get into the "If it isn't A it's Z" way of thinking. Polarity is easy and we're busy people. Complex thought takes time and tires us out.

Characters like Hawk & Dove make it very easy; in a way they're traps for lazy writing. "Hawk is violent, so he must love violence all the time for any reason! Dove hates violence so she is nice and sensitive and passive!"

But what if Hawk hates violence too, but has found he's simply very good at it, and it gets things done? What if he regrets doing it, but must? And why? What if Dove fucks up one thing after another in her life by being passive-aggressive? By stalling? By working on a peaceful resolution that protracts a bad situation? It adds complexity to the characters.

One important factor to always take into account, though: whatever Dove may be as far as peaceful tendencies, she is IN THE GAME. Not sitting on her ass blogging, not reading papers and wishing she had the courage to talk. She's no slacktivist. She's in a costume up against lethal, horrible oposition her own damn self. Portraying her as a timid sister is fundamentally wrong; she DOES more about things than 99 percent of the DCU population, so to protray her as passive is a big mistake.

[titanfan]

It's time for DC to reprint the Hawk and Dove series as a trade so everyone else can see how cool they are too.

There's a reason that they are a lot of people's "pet characters"--they're darn cool!

[FistofIron]

I don't know much about these characters but they seem very interesting.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

More of a Cloak and Dagger fan myself, to be honest. ^_^

[Den]

Wow I didn't expect praise for what I said. Thanks! I try to be a good thinker but I seem to blow it these days more often than not. My brain is fractured.

My family line goes back many generations in the military, even Alanson Riverus Dixon, an officer prisoner who survived Andersonville. My grandfather was Major Jack Dixon, AAC then USAF, and my father? My father was a commando, counterterrorism and all that goes with it, for 26 years.

I have been asked how I became a writer and an artist with such sensitivity out of such a background. And I answer what my father answered when he was asked the same question: "He's what we were fighting for."

There are some people whose lives lead them to conclude that they best serve their family, their children, their world and themselves by being a combatant. It is not necessarily so that they are bloodthirsty people; in fact I can say that the special operations soldiers I grew up with were some of the most compassionate people I have ever known. Those empowered to take life gain an unique appreciation for life. They trained to kill as little as possible, knowing that every combatant they faced had innocent friends and family to go home to. Special operations is not the spray-bullets-kill-all it is in movies and games. It's surgical, for maximum effect from minimal impact.

My point is: just because someone uses violence it does not mean they are simpletons, nor that it is ill-considered, nor that it does more harm than non-violent methods.

It has been my experience that when writers use their characters as mouthpieces for politics, they fail, fail, and fail harder. The fail is because the political part gets forced in, with whatever character they have their hands on at the time, rather than coming from a character's motives and motivators.

We often forget, as writers, that while a character may come into panel for a few moments, they've lived their whole life up to those moments with all the complexity of any other person alive. A tertiary character might deliver one line, but they've had an entire life of decades up to that line. Getting a character to do or say something because "the story needs it right there" always rings hollow. It has to come from their life history, up to that point in time, to ring true.

And so, Hawk and Dove tend to fail, and fail hard, because there is a perception by many people that they exist to be political figures. I think this is a fundamental mistake. Just as liberal-versus-conservative and any X-versus-Y simplification does in politics, it dehumanizes people and makes them items to serve a function---not people. Good writers write people, not plots.

These days we all tend to get into the "If it isn't A it's Z" way of thinking. Polarity is easy and we're busy people. Complex thought takes time and tires us out.

Characters like Hawk & Dove make it very easy; in a way they're traps for lazy writing. "Hawk is violent, so he must love violence all the time for any reason! Dove hates violence so she is nice and sensitive and passive!"

But what if Hawk hates violence too, but has found he's simply very good at it, and it gets things done? What if he regrets doing it, but must? And why? What if Dove fucks up one thing after another in her life by being passive-aggressive? By stalling? By working on a peaceful resolution that protracts a bad situation? It adds complexity to the characters.

One important factor to always take into account, though: whatever Dove may be as far as peaceful tendencies, she is IN THE GAME. Not sitting on her ass blogging, not reading papers and wishing she had the courage to talk. She's no slacktivist. She's in a costume up against lethal, horrible oposition her own damn self. Portraying her as a timid sister is fundamentally wrong; she DOES more about things than 99 percent of the DCU population, so to protray her as passive is a big mistake.

Ok. I think after two posts like this I have to agree with KevinT. If you ever get to write a Hawk/Dove Mini or regular series or even a one shot, I'd love to see it.

[Aspield]

Can't wait to see Hawk come up against Huntress in implacable anger, and Dinah in terms of fighting skill. Hell, I even want him to face off against Zinda's drinking ability.

Dove is a great, if underutilized character. Hopefully she fares better under Simone's vicious pen than she has before.

Have to say, they're an interesting addition to the BoP interaction.

[Red Jack]

More of a Cloak and Dagger fan myself, to be honest. ^_^

You seductive bastard, you.

I'd love to rework those two.

[Larry Dixon]

Ok. I think after two posts like this I have to agree with KevinT. If you ever get to write a Hawk/Dove Mini or regular series or even a one shot, I'd love to see it.

Wow thanks!

I don't know what it is with DC, though. They all seem to be very sweet people, but after Misty & I had a nice in-office chat where they talked about us doing OGNs and stuff, contact just fizzled.

(It seems like they'd want to keep in contact with guys who sell millions and want to take a pay cut to write their characters...!)

Then again, I can see it from their point of view, they have thousands of writers in the wings at any time, who'll work for less money and require less 'special handling,' so it makes sense.

Anyway Gail is a gal who thinks deeply about her characters.

Then she stabs them in the face.

[Shurato2099]

Anyway Gail is a gal who thinks deeply about her characters.

Then she stabs them in the face.

And it is this deep thinking before the stabbity that makes all the difference, says I!

Any schmo can write somebody stabbing somebody in the face, but to give it feeling and characterization is the trick! We need more of that around the DCU in my opinion, I'd even forgo the stabbity to get it.

[Larry Dixon]

And it is this deep thinking before the stabbity that makes all the difference, says I!

Any schmo can write somebody stabbing somebody in the face, but to give it feeling and characterization is the trick! We need more of that around the DCU in my opinion, I'd even forgo the stabbity to get it.

Believe me, when she does it in person, in real life, you don't forget. I'm just sayin' I have facial scars. And memories.

[suedenim]

The problem with Hawk and Dove in the past has been the tendency for the writers to pick sides. Conservative writers favor Hawk, liberals favor Dove, and whichever one the writer doesn't agree with gets portrayed as a schmuck. Ideally, they should both be equally sympathetic, and equally likely to be right in some instances and wrong in others.

And the population of comics writers being what it is, it usually translates to "Hawk bad, Dove good." But even when this is the intended message, since the genre is superhero action-adventure, even if that's the intended message, they tend to come off like "Hawk bad but effective, Dove good but useless."

Regardless of the "balance" between the characters, it's awfully tough to sell a pacifist being useful in a genre centered aroun combat.

I have to say, though I have complete trust in Gail, it'll be an uphill battle to get me to give a damn about these characters.

[buttler]

All I know is I'd be only too happy to never hear anything about Monarch or Extant again.

[LewisH]

much point to Hawk and Dove. I don't think comics should be used for political debates and that's all these characters amount to, strawmen for the extreme sides of a debate that has been going on since the beginning of history. Gail might get more out of them but to do so she pretty much has to ignore all of Hawk's history. On top of that she has to "nerf" them down to the power level of the rest of the team.

[PatrickG]

And the population of comics writers being what it is, it usually translates to "Hawk bad, Dove good." But even when this is the intended message, since the genre is superhero action-adventure, even if that's the intended message, they tend to come off like "Hawk bad but effective, Dove good but useless."

Regardless of the "balance" between the characters, it's awfully tough to sell a pacifist being useful in a genre centered aroun combat.

I have to say, though I have complete trust in Gail, it'll be an uphill battle to get me to give a damn about these characters.

Nutty thought but maybe the best outcome would be both to get a popularity hike and both get their own book or get two co-features with two writers...

That is, if we can't have Gail or Peter David writing them.

BTW, with regards to the points raised about bias...

I'd venture to say that Geoff Johns and Mark Millar are two writers who lean left personally but also seem to portray progressive guys as wimps and both have a hard-on for neo-con and/or hyper-brutal heroes.

[Ghostwise]

Hawk is not Wolverine, I promise. ;)


Of course not - he's USAgent.

[MacQuarrie]

Following up on Larry's brilliant assessment...

People who say "violence never solves anything" don't understand violence. The problem with violence isn't that it never solves anything, it's that it solves things far too effectively, creating new problems in the process.

That idiot won't shut up? WHAM! Now he's quiet, but he's in the hospital and you're in handcuffs.

The trick with violence is to know how much to apply and under what circumstances. I'd really like to see Hawk as a guy who knows when and how much and doesn't go zero-to-nuclear every time.

[dupersuper]

Hawk's in an interesting place. Right now, he's wearing a lot of hats: The 'dude' hat, the 'conservative'

Don't forget the "crazy villain who wanted to destroy the universe" hat.


All I know is I'd be only too happy to never hear anything about Monarch or Extant again.

That's a Hell of an elephant to leave in the room...he killed a couple of Dinahs "uncles".

[Lunar Archivist]

That's a Hell of an elephant to leave in the room...he killed a couple of Dinahs "uncles".

A retcon states that Mordru was manipulating him. Cheap cop-out, I know, but it's Word of God. I'd like to hear Word of Gail, though. :biggrin:

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Hawk is not Wolverine, I promise. ;)

Very, very interesting stuff comig with them. I think people will be surprised.

Is that from my review ? I did throw a comparison to Hawkman too in there . :tongue:

I wouldn't mind if he was a Wolverine type. I can see it being an agent of choas driving him.

[buttler]

A retcon states that Mordru was manipulating him. Cheap cop-out, I know, but it's Word of God. I'd like to hear Word of Gail, though. :biggrin:

Ahhh, right. Hawk and Mordru. That makes perfect sense. Especially if it was inadvertently because of something Alley-Kat-Abra did.

[Duxdoom]

My only question about Hawk and Dove is this:

Will Hawk ever make a Cock in the Henhouse joke?

[Shurato2099]

We're talking Hank Hall, here. He's a hothead but not as hormonal as a young Roy Harper would be in that situation. He learned a long time ago that 'Because you're a girl' gets him pummeled and generally shown up, too. :-)

[Tad Sivana]

Hawk will eat small rodents and gophers.
Dove will fly in circles and smash into windows.

[Stressfactor]

Hawk will eat small rodents and gophers.
Dove will fly in circles and smash into windows.

Mourning Doves will often pretend to be injured in order to lure predators away from their nest.

Doves will put their own lives on the line -- they will put themsleves in danger, in harm's way, in order to protect their offspring.

Seems to me that's a good quality to emphasize in Dawn -- that she will put her life on the line, that she goes into harm's way in order to protect the innocent and/or the helpless, to deflect evil from them.

[PatrickG]

Hawk will eat small rodents and gophers.
Dove will fly in circles and smash into windows.

I think that was Frank Miller's Robin and Batman, respectively.

[Larry Dixon]

Following up on Larry's brilliant assessment...

People who say "violence never solves anything" don't understand violence. The problem with violence isn't that it never solves anything, it's that it solves things far too effectively, creating new problems in the process.

That idiot won't shut up? WHAM! Now he's quiet, but he's in the hospital and you're in handcuffs.

The trick with violence is to know how much to apply and under what circumstances. I'd really like to see Hawk as a guy who knows when and how much and doesn't go zero-to-nuclear every time.

Mac is a good thinker.

I'll also add in that it's not a secret that I am an aikido player, so thinking about Dove, aikido occurred to me right away. Aikido, while it is a martial art of conflict resolution, can also be amazingly powerful in a vhyperviolent context. Most MMA champs use aikido at some point during a match. Yet, at its core philosophy, it is perhaps the most 'peaceful' of martial arts.

It can be boiled down to "use the force of your assailant's attack to kick his own ass." Redirection of the force aimed at you, and so on. Someone charges you, you politely introduce their face to the nearest wall. That sort of thing.

If Dove was written as a high-end aikido-ka, whose combat effectiveness was oriented around "use greater force against itself," I could see that as being wholly within character AND great for an action book. Maybe someone has? I don't know for sure.

[Tyr]

Hawk is not Wolverine, I promise. ;)


Whatever, as long as he's not a fancy. Not that there's anything wrong with fancies mind you, but in Zee's case, the problem with fancying a fancy is that he doesn't fancy her.

[Jason Abbadon]

Hawk is not Wolverine, I promise. ;)

Very, very interesting stuff comig with them. I think people will be surprised.

If he's "The Avatar of war" maybe he could inspire people in battle- maybe causing otherwise normal citizenry to rise up to his cause...with Dove needed to calm them down afterward.

just a crazy idea, but those sometimes pan out.

Are you going to address Hawk's background- that whole thing where he turned into Monarch (awful name that- I cant help but think of Venture Bros.)
You'd expect the heroes to be keeping tabs on him and looking at him with suspicion.

Heck, does he even remember any of that stuff?

There's got to be a lot of story in him just catching up on life- music, clothes- everything would have changed since he died...he died before the internet! LOL!

[Shurato2099]

Mac is a good thinker.

I'll also add in that it's not a secret that I am an aikido player, so thinking about Dove, aikido occurred to me right away. Aikido, while it is a martial art of conflict resolution, can also be amazingly powerful in a vhyperviolent context. Most MMA champs use aikido at some point during a match. Yet, at its core philosophy, it is perhaps the most 'peaceful' of martial arts.

It can be boiled down to "use the force of your assailant's attack to kick his own ass." Redirection of the force aimed at you, and so on. Someone charges you, you politely introduce their face to the nearest wall. That sort of thing.

If Dove was written as a high-end aikido-ka, whose combat effectiveness was oriented around "use greater force against itself," I could see that as being wholly within character AND great for an action book. Maybe someone has? I don't know for sure.

When I first saw Dove, Dawn Granger that is (I didn't see a lot of Don Hall early on due to that whole date of birth thing), that is almost exactly what I saw but my first thought wasn't so much aikido as tai-chi-chuan aka 'The Art of Helping'. Helping the foe into walls, each other, onto the floor, etc. :-)

As I've had more exposure to Hawk and Dove over the years that sort of combat is what Dove excels at: using greater force against itself, using the environment to his/her advantage, applying minimum force in precise ways to get the job done.

Hawk, on the other hand, is the overt aggressor of the pair. Hit the foe hard and fast, generally head on, put the bad guys down and be done with it. Where Dove fights with her head, Hawk fights with his fists and makes no apologies for giving the goons a good thrashing.

I've always been drawn to characters like Dove who are creative about putting the bad guys down for the count rather than diving in with fists flying.

[El Muerte]

My first look at Hawk and Dove was in the huge Crisis event. This was the Hall brothers version. I had never heard of them until this point and still, I was almost brought to tears (I was younger then) when Dove was killed by the Anti-Monitors creatures. It wasn't until I found the TPB written by Kesel and Liefeld that I knew they were still around. I LOVED that book and still re-read it from time to time.

I was very happy to see them on the cover of the Birds of Prey relaunch and I am really hoping they aren't just an, every once in awhile co-star. I would like to see them in every issue.

And I agree, Hawk is no Wolvie.


He's better. :cool:

[Gryphon]

when writing hawk, can you refrence ditko in some way? maybe something minor but something just to remind the readers about the legendary comics figure who created hawk and dove ( well the original dove)

[Lunar Archivist]

Ahhh, right. Hawk and Mordru. That makes perfect sense. Especially if it was inadvertently because of something Alley-Kat-Abra did.

Don't blame the messenger, man. That's what the comic book said:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/lunar_archivist/JSA045-03.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/lunar_archivist/JSA46-13.jpg

[Shurato2099]

Ah, yes, the return of Dawn Granger ... and apparently the point where she became permanently white haired for some reason. She's supposed to be blond in her civilian ID, yes?

[buttler]

Don't blame the messenger, man. That's what the comic book said:

Oh yeah, I believed you. But man, sometimes these "fixes" only manage to make a ridiculous situation more ridiculous.

[Gumbo Maximillian]

Oh yeah, I believed you. But man, sometimes these "fixes" only manage to make a ridiculous situation more ridiculous.

Unlike the GL fix, it doesn't actually absolve him of anything just makes him more acceptable to write as a non-evil character.

It even mentions that eventually he got rid of Mordu and was still a stone cold bastard.

Though really I guess Hawk's basic philosphy doesn't fly that far from what he did as Extant or Monarch, those were just his believes taken to the extreme.

Question; why is Hawk no longer Extant?

[Gumbo Maximillian]

Mac is a good thinker.

I'll also add in that it's not a secret that I am an aikido player, so thinking about Dove, aikido occurred to me right away. Aikido, while it is a martial art of conflict resolution, can also be amazingly powerful in a vhyperviolent context. Most MMA champs use aikido at some point during a match. Yet, at its core philosophy, it is perhaps the most 'peaceful' of martial arts.

It can be boiled down to "use the force of your assailant's attack to kick his own ass." Redirection of the force aimed at you, and so on. Someone charges you, you politely introduce their face to the nearest wall. That sort of thing.

If Dove was written as a high-end aikido-ka, whose combat effectiveness was oriented around "use greater force against itself," I could see that as being wholly within character AND great for an action book. Maybe someone has? I don't know for sure.

Thats what I was thinking; when people were referring to Dove as a pacifist, she doesn't come off as one to me. I mean I'm pretty sure she has been in a few fights so she's not against violence on all levels.

She's just like a martial artist who prefers to avoid violence if at all possible.

[Shurato2099]

A very good question of great galactic imporatance, the answer to which will only cost you 5000 quatloos. :-)

It hasn't been addressed in print yet. Hank died as Extant but came back as Hawk. My feeling is that it is part of his second chance in much the same way as Aquaman coming back with both hands in tact was/is.

[Lunar Archivist]

Oh yeah, I believed you. But man, sometimes these "fixes" only manage to make a ridiculous situation more ridiculous.

On this we can agree. :biggrin:

Even at this point I'm still scratching my head about that scene. They were trying to handwave Hawk's guilt even though he was dead as a doornail. And this was in the early 2000s, way before resurrection was even being considered and the female Hawk debuted.


Unlike the GL fix, it doesn't actually absolve him of anything just makes him more acceptable to write as a non-evil character.

It even mentions that eventually he got rid of Mordu and was still a stone cold bastard.

Though really I guess Hawk's basic philosphy doesn't fly that far from what he did as Extant or Monarch, those were just his believes taken to the extreme.

Question; why is Hawk no longer Extant?

It's possible that the White Lantern resurrected the characters in their "best physical and mental shape" possible and removed any extraneous elements. As I recall, Hawk went crazy after his older self, Monarch, murdered Dove (or, as this comics says, appeared to do so). If this is the case, then he's basically being restored to being sane, but possible still with the memories of what he did swimming around in his brain.

It still doesn't make sense that Extant died the way he did in the first place anyway. After he killed and absorbed Waverider, he was transformed into pure chronal energy. You can't destroy energy or make it bleed. And it certainly doesn't leave a body behind.