Classic vs. Cool

[darknessatnoon]

This thread is based off something The Big G wrote: "They made Angel cool again by bringing back Archangel."

Is this true?

Angel is a classic. Isn't that enough to coast on? Does he need to be changed for us to continue following his story? It took them forty years to get around to making Cyclops cool. During X-Factor, he was a stressed out wreck - forty years old going on sixty-five, in the midst of a mid-life crisis and on the constant verge of a heart attack. The attempt to make Cyclops cool grates the nerves of some longtime readers. It's not just a different interpretation of the character or even a development; it's a radical transformation of his basic concept and it comes at the expense of other characters.

I still don't know where I fall on the classic versus cool scale. I like Archangel but find recent Cyclops developments ridiculous. I look askance at the previewed attempt to make Jubilee relevant. Psylocke is another example of a character who was altered for marketing purposes, though that transformation was a plot point - not a sudden change in characterization or artistic style. Cannonball often ping pongs between mature/competent and naive/bumbling.

Discuss

[Havok83]

Turning Warren back into Death was completely unnecesary. I hated it but now dont care. It did absolustely nothing for his character and he didnt need it

Overall I think I tend to like the classic versions of characters. Hate the current incranation of Cyclops, but loved him prior to his more recent developments

Beast, lost me when he turned into a big cat. I couldnt and cant get into him until they change him back into his classic ape look

[Novaya Havoc]

I have made my thoughts on Angel/Archangel and -- by proxy -- this topic WELL KNOWN!!!!

Observe:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=9742431&postcount=400

[Leirus]

Hmm. I do not know where I stand in this. I prefer my heroes streamlined, because what it is cool tends to get old (the nineties heroes, for example... pouches!)

[darknessatnoon]

I have made my thoughts on Angel/Archangel and -- by proxy -- this topic WELL KNOWN!!!!

Observe:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=9742431&postcount=400

Your manifesto is ... eloquent.

[Novaya Havoc]

Your manifesto is ... eloquent.

thank you so much.

It means the ~world~ to me.

[Slant]

I'm not sure about either. Sometimes you need teh kewl, but not to a ridiculous extent.





Angel is a classic. Isn't that enough to coast on?

This is what leads to Colossus.

[darknessatnoon]

I'm not sure about either. Sometimes you need teh kewl, but not to a ridiculous extent.




This is what leads to Colossus.

They recently tried to make him cool by tatting him up.

[darknessatnoon]

uncool Cyclops

http://i44.tinypic.com/4sen43.jpg

I respect a man who can cry in public.

http://i39.tinypic.com/psp4i.jpg

More and more like Wolverine? Dream on, hausfrau.

[Dudebro McTypo]

Hmm. I do not know where I stand in this. I prefer my heroes streamlined, because what it is cool tends to get old (the nineties heroes, for example... pouches!)

Pouches are awesome hater!



Beast, lost me when he turned into a big cat. I couldnt and cant get into him until they change him back into his classic ape look

Yeah turning Beast into a cat was dumb


[CENTER][SIZE="4"]This thread is based off something The Big G wrote: "They made Angel cool again by bringing back Archangel."

I inspired a Darknessatnoon thread! :biggrin:

Characters can't stay stagnant forever, they need to change. Sometimes they change for the better (ex: Warren being able to switch between Angel and Archangel) yet sometimes the change is for the worse (ex: cat beast).

[Havok83]

http://i39.tinypic.com/psp4i.jpg

More and more like Wolverine? Dream on, hausfrau.

Haha, pretty ironic since the same can be said about him now as he wouldnt hesitate to kill his enemies

[Slant]

Turning Warren back into Death was completely unnecesary. I hated it but now dont care. It did absolustely nothing for his character and he didnt need it


Well, Archangel was put in X-Force. I doubt he would have been featured all that much as regular Angel. He was doing a big load of nothing before.

[darknessatnoon]

Pouches are awesome hater!



Yeah turning Beast into a cat was dumb



I inspired a Darknessatnoon thread! :biggrin:

Characters can't stay stagnant forever, they need to change. Sometimes they change for the better (ex: Warren being able to switch between Angel and Archangel) yet sometimes the change is for the worse (ex: cat beast).

Cat beast is not relevant to this thread. It wasn't an attempt to make him cool.

More relevant is Kitty Pryde's bone-claw and haircut in the Revolution issues.

[Havok83]

Well, Archangel was put in X-Force. I doubt he would have been featured all that much as regular Angel. He was doing a big load of nothing before.
Warren didnt need to be put in X-force. He was actuall being utilized over in UXM with the X club. At the end of the day, I dont hate it like I did at first but it ultimately felt like an unnecesary development. He got a change in powers but any psychological aspect of this was not explored. We haven’t seen an internal struggle. Having his wings chopped off and turning into Death was the most traumatic experience of his life; something which he had to suffer through for years s it changed him as much on the inside as it did on the outside. If they had have him revert again, Id have given him some character development to go along with it, rather than just beef up his powerset



More relevant is Kitty Pryde's bone-claw and haircut in the Revolution issues.

which she got to use for 1 issue before being taken out. She returns a year later for one issue and gets written out agian, until CC brings her back in Mekanix, closer to her classic look

Speaking of Revolution, Psylocke is a perfect example of cool vs classic. Heck her entire history for the past 20 years has been a struggle of that

[Dudebro McTypo]

Warren didnt need to be put in X-force. He was actuall being utilized over in UXM with the X club. At the end of the day, I dont hate it like I did at first but it ultimately felt like an unnecesary development. He got a change in powers but any psychological aspect of this was not explored. We haven’t seen an internal struggle. Having his wings chopped off and turning into Death was the most traumatic experience of his life; something which he had to suffer through for years s it changed him as much on the inside as it did on the outside. If they had have him revert again, Id have given him some character development to go along with it, rather than just beef up his powerset

Actually from what i've read in X-Force becoming Death again has been taking it's toll on Warren. Wolverine had to stab him to snap him out of a "The strong will survive" rant.

Then the whole encounter with Apoc in the future was great character development.

[Slant]

Warren didnt need to be put in X-force. He was actuall being utilized over in UXM with the X club.
From X-Force to the X Club is probably the biggest example of "downgrade" I can think of, entertainment wise.

And before MC he was doing literally nothing. Now he's gotten fair amount of panel time and is cutting bad guys up in major crossovers.

[darknessatnoon]

I have no problem with the recent resurgence of Archangel. It would be silly to never address the archangel persona again. It's spilt milk. The real problem wasn't even making him Archangel in the first place - it was in making it his status quo. Now at least he doesn't have to look/act like a complete freak all the time.

[Havok83]

Actually from what i've read in X-Force becoming Death again has been taking it's toll on Warren. Wolverine had to stab him to snap him out of a "The strong will survive" rant.

Then the whole encounter with Apoc in the future was great character development.
Warren flips to his Death form all the time with little to no reprecussion. Its like its no big deal for him. In human form, Id love to see him actively object it and struggle with whats happened. Id like to see it treated sort of like a Dr Jekyl/Mr Hyde scenario with him having a distinctly different personality. Id like it if he realized that each time he changes, he becomes darker, more evil, which spills onto his human personality. Use that as a consequence for him wanting/needing to limit it. Without the constant struggle, it makes little sense why he isnt in his Death form in every battle. Why does he go into most fights with just his feathered wings when his metallic ones are much more efficent? As its treated right now, its something he does when he needs to cut things up.

[Novaya Havoc]

More relevant is Kitty Pryde's bone-claw and haircut in the Revolution issues.

idk. I thought Dazzler II's exceptional PinkPunk look was a sensational improvement.

[Slant]

If X-Men Forever counts, then the upcoming Jewpanese Kitty with claws is also relevant.

[darknessatnoon]

Why does he go into most fights with just his feathered wings when his metallic ones are much more efficent? As its treated right now, its something he does when he needs to cut things up.

Because if the others saw the techno-organic wings Warren would have to explain what happened to him, which would reveal the existence of X-Force. It's really simple.

[Havok83]

idk. I thought Dazzler II's exceptional PinkPunk look was a sensational improvement.
that was Alison trying WAY too hard to be releavant again

[Havok83]

Because if the others saw the techno-organic wings Warren would have to explain what happened to him, which would reveal the existence of X-Force. It's really simple.except, he's used his metalic wings in public already. Secret Invasion early on was shortly after he got them. He used them again with the X club when they went to the past. Recently on Utopia during Necrosha. People knowing about his doesnt equal revealing X-force.

[darknessatnoon]

except, he's used his metalic wings in public already. Secret Invasion early on was shortly after he got them. He used them again with the X club when they went to the past.

Those were artistic errors. It doesn't jive with the main story, so we can count them as accidents and exceptions. Like you said, "except."

[Leirus]

Because if the others saw the techno-organic wings Warren would have to explain what happened to him, which would reveal the existence of X-Force. It's really simple.

I think so, and I would file his appearances as Archangel in front of the rest as art mistake. Pixie saw him as Archangel, but she did not even know who he was.

K&Y usually tweak the characters they use to power upgrade them and make them cooler. (That, or kill them)

[Goshin]

Archangel was in my top 5 fave x-men as a kid, and the Angel I read in back issues was just plain 'okay'. But now with the transformation he can satisfy old and new fans alike! Marvel should have done this 10 years ago...

[darknessatnoon]

I think so, and I would file his appearances as Archangel in front of the rest as art mistake. Pixie saw him as Archangel, but she did not even know who he was.

K&Y usually tweak the characters they use to power upgrade them and make them cooler. (That, or kill them)

Right. It's a story point that the others didn't know. Beast didn't know he could become Archangel after Secret Invasion. It was only when absolutely necessary that Warren showed him what he could do, and even then he refused to discuss it with Beast. It's one of the reasons he left. Beast knew "bad" things were being kept from him.

EDIT: Anyway, in Utopia he didn't transform until after he had removed Bullseye from the main battle. And later, when back with the rest of the team he had turned back into Angel.

[SJNeal]

Typically, I side with "classic" looks or characterization. However, I started reading the X-Men in 1991, when both Warren and Betsy (my favorites) were already blue/death-y and asian/ninja respectively. So their current incarnations are the "classic" ones as far as I'm concerned. I've since read a lot of older stuff, so I appreciate what came before and like most of it. It's the people at this point, not so much the gimmick, that I follow.

In the case of Angel/Archangel, I'm ok with him being able to revert back and forth. I think it adds another dimension to someone who was starting to get pretty damn boring; this from someone who places Warren Worthington in their Top 2 X-Men.

[Prodigy55]

Archangel is super boring. He just screams all the time? But regular Angel couldn't have been that much better because I can't remember a single thing he's ever said.

[WWWD]

All depends on the character. I like both renditions of Angel. I agree that I hate the "Cool" Cyclops. But I also gotta say I love Claremont's take on Magneto a lot more than 'classic' Magneto. Or would Claremont's be considered classic? Either way... I'm more Classic, I guess.

[marvell2100]

Every character can't be cool and shouldn't just be altered to appeal to something fleeting. Warren being turned into Archangel didn't make him cool. He was just transformed into a blue guy with metal wings and "paralysis" blades(lol) and prone to bouts of melancholy. If they wanted him to be the angel of death they could have left his appearance alone, gave him a sword and really kill somebody. He didn't turn cool, he was just turned pouty.

[Goshin]

All I gotta say is if you were ten years old in 1993 when the cartoon came out and you were introduced to him in the 4 horsemen/apocalypse 2 parter then the Angel of Death will always be embedded in your mind as a bad-ass. You newbie readers missed out on the golden age of x-men.

[marvell2100]

All I gotta say is if you were ten years old in 1993 when the cartoon came out and you were introduced to him in the 4 horsemen/apocalypse 2 parter then the Angel of Death will always be embedded in your mind as a bad-ass. You newbie readers missed out on the golden age of x-men.

I don't want to say how old I was in 1993, lol.

[Dudebro McTypo]

I don't want to say how old I was in 1993, lol.

I was 4 in 1993

[worstblogever]

If Henry Peter Gyrich stopped being a little s***, and showed up in a leather jacket and shades going, "AAAAyyyyyyy...." I wouldn't want to read him anymore. I like that he's not cool. I love to hate the guy.


If someone in the X-Men is usually awkward, keep 'em that way. I don't need a funky Forge, a fun-lovin' Cyclops, or a Magneto who's hip to the young folks.

Keep their personalities.

[Goshin]

I think marvel should cut all the X-Men: First Class crap and just start reprinting monthly or bi-weekly X-Men Classic stories for new younger readers. That's why there's such a big gap between 90s and 2000s readers, us 90s readers had X-Men Classic reprints each month to keep us happy in between newer stories and help fill us in on history. Rogue became one of my favorite characters after reading the issue she switched sides and joined the team, for example. Newer fans only appreciate the new 'edgy' shit and bitch about anything remniscent of the 80s or 90s because they don't know how to appreciate classic material.

[marvell2100]

I was 4 in 1993

My kid was 2.

[Dudebro McTypo]

My kid was 2.

and now i feel young

[marvell2100]

and now i feel young

Glad to help in anyway I can.

[Arthas]

except, he's used his metalic wings in public already. Secret Invasion early on was shortly after he got them. He used them again with the X club when they went to the past. Recently on Utopia during Necrosha. People knowing about his doesnt equal revealing X-force.

If I remember the Secret Invasion: X-men series correctly, the only person he used them in front of was Pixie and she ended up asking who was the guy with metal wings later. I might be remembering wrong though.

[Quinnhop]

I reject the idea that these two things are in any way mutually exclusive and, thus, cannot vote in your poll.

Adjust it for us bi-curious, plz.

[jtjr26]

I like the cool, take charge Cyclops we are getting now. Its a lot better than the angst and stressed Cyclops we had in the past over his personal choices. Yes he is under stress now but it doesn't have as much power over him as it did in the past. Also I know this is sacrilegious for the long time fans but I like him better with Emma than with Jean. When he was with Jean it was like he was emasculated by the fact that she with the phoenix force was so much more powerful than him and he came across as weak. So much of his character was wrapped up in his relationship with Jean for so long that we didn't know him, we knew them. Now that more of an individual identity has need established some people claim the character is changed. I say its been further defined. His relationship with Emma seems like more of a partnership, than anything he had with Jean. Personally I would love to see Emma pregnant with Scott's x-gene child in the aftermath of the Second Coming. Also Scott has taken on the roll of the professor for the younger x-men. The mentor who they look up to, though I don't think the original x-men ever saw the professor sleeping on the couch after a fight with his girlfriend.

As for the Angel/Archangel debate, well Angel is boring. Yes he is rich and powerful but he cant do anything. Archangel is a combat ready killing machine. Though previously over time Warren managed to get some control over the darker impulses brought to the surface through the transformation to Archangel. Now its like as Angel he is calm and rational, and as Archangel he has less control. Whether that is a plot point or bad writing, I don't know.

[creaky]

I get tired of "cool" very quickly. But then, I'm a gurl.

[FiddleFaddle]

I get tired of "cool" very quickly. But then, I'm a gurl.

HEY! girls can be cool!

You're a prime example!!

[Polaris]

Good question. Claremont's established standard sucks for Polaris and many other characters, and generally a lot of people consider Claremont=classic. I have to go with cool.

[creaky]

HEY! girls can be cool!

You're a prime example!!

Awwwwww. :redface:

[Electric Version]

Cyclops was cool until X-Factor made him a mess. He was Mr. X-Men. He was the guy who took out the entire team by himself in Uncanny 175. He was the one Who saved the All-New X-Men after Magneto handed them all of their asses in their first battle. The guy who told Wolverine to shut up while giving him a delightful backhand. That's the Cyclops I want to see again.

[Slant]

I have a feeling that if Cyclops took out an entire X-Team, bitchslapped Wolverine, and saved everyone asses it wouldn't go over well.

Not that I wouldn't love it.

[Electric Version]

I have a feeling that if Cyclops took out an entire X-Team, bitchslapped Wolverine, and saved everyone asses it wouldn't go over well.

Not that I wouldn't love it.

Well, it's already happened, and I'm sure everyone enjoyed it, since those issues sold a lot better than the current ones.

[wolvie616]

Glad to help in anyway I can.
MARVELL! I haven't seen you in ages, man!

I have a feeling that if Cyclops took out an entire X-Team, bitchslapped Wolverine, and saved everyone asses it wouldn't go over well.

Not that I wouldn't love it.
yeah, I still have trouble buying that issue myself. I just think that wolverine and kurt both were very out of character in that fight

[The Lucky One]

The Dark Knight Strikes Back was, by and large, not great, but there's one line in it that says everything that needs to be said about this situation:

Barry Allen: You changed my costume.
Carrie Kelly: Yeah. The old one was really, um... old.
Barry: Kids these days. Can't tell the difference between just plain old, and classic.


I've made my feelings about Archangel known elsewhere, but I don't mind as much if it's a specific storyline K-Y/Fraction are telling and they have a definite endpoint in mind for how/when they're going to fix him. The problem with the original metal wings was that it was cool for a couple of years and then they just stopped being referenced altogether- he might as well have had feathered wings, which are a better visual anyway. But like so many other '90s plot points (Legacy Virus, Summers/Grey DNA, etc.), it was a potentially interesting story that stopped being interesting when it became clear they had no plan to resolve it.

So, yeah. If there's a set ending planned for the new metal wings storyline that K-Y and/or Fraction are going to get to at some point in the near future, cool. If it's just the new status quo, that's lame. I'd even go so far as to say hella lame, but then I'd be showing my age.

-D

[Electric Version]

yeah, I still have trouble buying that issue myself. I just think that wolverine and kurt both were very out of character in that fight

No, Cyclops just used to be written as an incredibly capable and confident strategist and hero.

[darknessatnoon]

Good question. Claremont's established standard sucks for Polaris and many other characters, and generally a lot of people consider Claremont=classic. I have to go with cool.

I love Claremont's Polaris but then again I find weak women interesting. She's the Anita Hill of the X-Men.

[Quinnhop]

HEY! girls can be cool!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v392/Quinn1mh/2pys0vr.png

[Goshin]

Uncanny X-Men 175 Cyclops was the best ever. And the Wolverine bitch-slap is my favorite. And funny that was brought up because #104 is the oldest back issue in my collection. I found it in a flea market in 2005 near mint for $7!!

[FiddleFaddle]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v392/Quinn1mh/2pys0vr.png

You are so bad.

[darknessatnoon]

You are so bad.

They need a 'hide' function on CBR like they do on facebook. Even with 'ignore,' I'd still know you posted irrelevant nonsense in my thread.

[Electric Version]

Uncanny X-Men 175 Cyclops was the best ever. And the Wolverine bitch-slap is my favorite. And funny that was brought up because #104 is the oldest back issue in my collection. I found it in a flea market in 2005 near mint for $7!!

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/39480/808295-cyclops_pimps_wolvie_super.jpg

[Havok83]

Right. It's a story point that the others didn't know. Beast didn't know he could become Archangel after Secret Invasion. It was only when absolutely necessary that Warren showed him what he could do, and even then he refused to discuss it with Beast. It's one of the reasons he left. Beast knew "bad" things were being kept from him.

EDIT: Anyway, in Utopia he didn't transform until after he had removed Bullseye from the main battle. And later, when back with the rest of the team he had turned back into Angel.
When I mentioned Utopia I wasnt talking about the Dark Avengers crossover, bc I rememebred that scene as well I was referring to Necrosha. Warren changed into his metallic wing form on the island and that definetly was no artist mistake

[Polaris]

I love Claremont's Polaris but then again I find weak women interesting. She's the Anita Hill of the X-Men.
Love? Really? And who is the Clarence Thomas of the X-Men?

[darknessatnoon]

When I mentioned Utopia I wasnt talking about the Dark Avengers crossover, bc I rememebred that scene as well I was referring to Necrosha. Warren changed into his metallic wing form on the island and that definetly was no artist mistake

That was life or death and Psylocke, Colossus and Nightcrawler were all on Muir anyway. We know that Angel will switch forms during emergencies, like he did in 500 when he got the Sentinel away from the rest of the X-Men. Obviously, it was a big clue for the rest of them that a bird defeated a Sentinel but the X-Men have a long history of being stupid. In any case, it's not clear to me why you are arguing this point. He's got a secret to keep (even if he is doing it badly) and he won't turn into Archangel whenever it's unecessary, especially since the cost is that he gets a bloodlust. Now drop it.


Love? Really? And who is the Clarence Thomas of the X-Men?

No idea. All I know is that Polaris is weak, timid, can be forced to fight, but doesn't want to and is ragingly insane.

[Zero Hunter]

Angel should have never gotten his original wings back anyway. They were chopped off for gods sakes. That would be like Nightcralwer regrowing his tail if it got cut off.

[Electric Version]

Angel should have never gotten his original wings back anyway. They were chopped off for gods sakes. That would be like Nightcralwer regrowing his tail if it got cut off.

Oh, like you've never grown YOUR wings back.

[fortyseven]

Angel should have never gotten his original wings back anyway. They were chopped off for gods sakes. That would be like Nightcralwer regrowing his tail if it got cut off.

Doesn't Anole do sh!t like that?

[Polaris]

No idea. All I know is that Polaris is weak, timid, can be forced to fight, but doesn't want to and is ragingly insane.

That is classic Claremont Polaris except the ragingly insane part. You've convinced me I made the right decision with my vote.

[Havok83]

That was life or death and Psylocke, Colossus and Nightcrawler were all on Muir anyway. We know that Angel will switch forms during emergencies, like he did in 500 when he got the Sentinel away from the rest of the X-Men. Obviously, it was a big clue for the rest of them that a bird defeated a Sentinel but the X-Men have a long history of being stupid. In any case, it's not clear to me why you are arguing this point. He's got a secret to keep (even if he is doing it badly) and he won't turn into Archangel whenever it's unecessary, especially since the cost is that he gets a bloodlust. Now drop it.
Colossus, Kurt and Psylocke werent on Muir Island yet as Colossus was in Xforce 22. Not that it matters bc even if those 3 werent around, there were other X-men still on the island. Dazzler even asked him about his wings when she saw him. He didnt explain and that was the end of it

[darknessatnoon]

Colossus, Kurt and Psylocke werent on Muir Island yet as Colossus was in Xforce 22. Not that it matters bc even if those 3 werent around, there were other X-men still on the island. Dazzler even asked him about his wings when she saw him. He didnt explain and that was the end of it

I guess it doesn't matter since those characters didn't see it, Second Coming takes place right after and the cat's out of the bag. Also, I'm sure Cyclops told Dazzler II to keep her trap shut and she obeyed. There. Do I get a No-Prize? Now stop being pedantic. We get that you think he should use the wings all the time if he has them, although that would be idiotic since he can't control himself when he uses them and he becomes a brutal murderer. Nice suggestion anyway.

[The Lucky One]

Angel should have never gotten his original wings back anyway. They were chopped off for gods sakes. That would be like Nightcralwer regrowing his tail if it got cut off.

Totally. Sure, I can buy that a 3000-year-old blue shapeshifter replaced a natural mutation with living metal that responds to your thoughts and fires paralyzing flechettes, but that feathered wings grew back underneath? Get fucking serious.

-D

[Havok83]

I guess it doesn't matter since those characters didn't see it, Second Coming takes place right after and the cat's out of the bag. Also, I'm sure Cyclops told Dazzler II to keep her trap shut and she obeyed. There. Do I get a No-Prize? Now stop being pedantic. We get that you think he should use the wings all the time if he has them, although that would be idiotic since he can't control himself when he uses them and he becomes a brutal murderer. Nice suggestion anyway.I never said I wanted him to use the metallic wings all the time....I never wanted him to get them back to begin with

[AdamYJ]

Honestly, my favorite version of Warren was under Austen, of all people. When he was a team-leading, sword-wielding warrior Archangel. No blue skin or razor wings required.

Honestly, my biggest problem with Warren has always been the name. "Angel" sounds like a girl's name.

[Polaris]

Honestly, my favorite version of Warren was under Austen, of all people. When he was a team-leading, sword-wielding warrior Archangel. No blue skin or razor wings required.

Honestly, my biggest problem with Warren has always been the name. "Angel" sounds like a girl's name.

But he is a beautiful man. Someone post those X-Factor scans of his sweet buns.

[Electric Version]

Honestly, my favorite version of Warren was under Austen, of all people. When he was a team-leading, sword-wielding warrior Archangel. No blue skin or razor wings required.

Honestly, my biggest problem with Warren has always been the name. "Angel" sounds like a girl's name.

Buffy will punch you in the face.

[AdamYJ]

Buffy will punch you in the face.

I remember the pilot to that show. When Angel tells her his name, you know what she says?

"Pretty."

I'm thinking she essentially agrees with me there.

[Havok83]

Honestly, my favorite version of Warren was under Austen, of all people. When he was a team-leading, sword-wielding warrior Archangel. No blue skin or razor wings required.

Honestly, my biggest problem with Warren has always been the name. "Angel" sounds like a girl's name.
I loved him under Austen as well. He rocked as a leader

[machinarex]

uncool Cyclops

http://i44.tinypic.com/4sen43.jpg



I hate that Marvel realized Havok showing his (rather firm) booty off all the time was uncool, and started making him wear pants.

I think the cool vs uncool thing has to be taken on a case-by-case basis. Sometimes, an updating is a good thing...and sometimes not. Depends on the reason, how it's followed through with...and, well, just what's been to make a character "cool."

[AdamYJ]

The most important thing is probably to find what was cool about the character in the first place and then try not to lose sight of it.

[Electric Version]

I remember the pilot to that show. When Angel tells her his name, you know what she says?

"Pretty."

I'm thinking she essentially agrees with me there.

Too shay. :tongue:

[Electric Version]

I hate that Marvel realized Havok showing his (rather firm) booty off all the time was uncool, and started making him wear pants.




Seriously, THAT'S the way to get out of Scott's shadow.

And crying in front of Dazzler, how embarrassing. She's just gonna write a song about it.

[marvell2100]

Classic Coke is the best ever!

[peopleofpaper]

everything original seems so much better than all the changed things. the only thing i like is emma frost turning diamond. it suits her.

[AstonishingXMan]

When Warren joined X-Force and became Archangel, I cared about his character, something I hadn't done since the early 1990's or so. He is completely useless as just Angel.

[creaky]

Classic Coke is the best ever!

You don't like your Coke cool?

[witness]

I always preferred geeky Cyclops, Since he's been "cool" he just gets on my nerves.

[kk1]

I want the characters to stay in character, so the next writer that comes along can give me a cool story about that character. I hate when a writer changes a character so they fit what how they think the character would be cooler, instead of accepting the character is already cool enough the way they are. It's just lazy damn writing when you have to change an established character to fit a story instead of the other way around.
I'm not against changing a character for a story but make it temporary, Psylocke, like everyone else who went through the Seige Perilous was supposed to revert back, not stay a completely different character. Why not just create a whole new character? I don't get it.

[marvell2100]

You don't like your Coke cool?

Cold my dear and shaken, not stirred.

[Quinnhop]

Cold my dear and shaken, not stirred.

Sounds like a mess waiting to happen.

[MarvelMaster616]

I like this thread. It brings up a valid point. The need to be 'cool' in comics seems to have superseded so much of what actually makes a story and the characters good. It's like there's been a widespread 'Wolveriniezation' of every character to make them edgy and cool. The problem is, that comes at a price.

Cyclops has been discussed a lot here and he has gone through many transitions. There are those who say his pre-Morrison Cyclops was better and his Post-Morrison Cyclops was better. I'm of the mind that there are no such distinctions. He's the same Cyclops. People don't change and neither do characters. Only their influences change. Right now Cyclops does not have the influences of Jean Grey and Professor Xavier. This has been both good and bad because it has led him into this position of being a militant mutant leader. I would argue that's probably appropriate given the situation mutants have found themselves in after M-Day. I would also argue that he's going down a dark path, leaving himself open to doing things that will come back to haunt him. If he was still with Jean Grey I doubt he would have sanctioned X-Force and if he gave Professor Xavier more influence I doubt the Utopia situation would have left mutants so isolated. If he keeps going down this path there's a greater chance the writers will go form merely influencing Scott Summers to all out rectconning him. And retcons rarely if ever benefit a character.

Emma Frost is another that has been seriously undermined in this same respect. Her influences haven't changed as much as she's been retconned. During the Morrison and Whedon runs, Emma was still her snarky self that she had been since her Hellfire days. That was part of her appeal and it made for great chemistry between the other characters. Since Fraction took over Emma Frost has become this tragic figure who was never all that bad and is just defined by her love for Cyclops, which ironically was founded on lies. That's not Emma Frost. That's a outright retcon of her character. I can tell Matt Fraction loves her, but it's often the characters we love most that we also happen to most undermine.

In terms of 'classic' characters I'm of the mind that the whole nostalgia play so many people make is a total joke. Nothing is ever as good as we remember it. That's why nostalgia is an impossible pipe dream. Comics are an unfolding story. There is and never has been a point where they've been 'classic.' They've just been at different points in the story. Writers try hard to make the books relevant, but often they try too hard to make them cool. It's not so much an issue of cool vs. classic as it is an issue of cool vs. being in-character. Right now there are a number of characters that the X-books have mishandled and it doesn't appear they're going to fix it anytime soon.

[marvell2100]

Sounds like a mess waiting to happen.

Which one, Coke or Second Coming?

[Foon4000]

Scott ought to be like Jack from Lost- an annoying emotional mess who ends up in charge by default and who has many resentful underlings who are nevertheless happy to have him make the crappy decisions. Scott should not be cool.

[Goshin]

Any character can be cool when you put them in certain situations or stories without changing their personality. Unfortunately, writers these days feel they have to change their personality to make them cool.