Moscow subway bomber is 17 years old

[40footwolf]

Well, one of them is anyway. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100402/ap_on_re_eu/eu_russia_bombings)

Jeeeesus. Some of my best friends are that age, or just barely older. I'M barely older than that.

Awful to think of what could drive someone to do that at that age. Any age, really, but 17...not even an adult. Heartbreaking.

[DungeonmasterJim]

I'm not surprised unfortunately. I think it's in Africa the rebels in some civil wars there grab kids and make them fight for them. And I'm talking like 10 to 12 year olds.

DM Jim

[Cam63]

Evil has no age limit.

[K-DoG7p7]

Evil has no age limit.

more like grief and revenge has no age limit
People forget that Russian has a Civil war going on and instantly jump to "ISLAMIC EXTREMISTS!"

[Charles RB]

I think it's in Africa the rebels in some civil wars there grab kids and make them fight for them. And I'm talking like 10 to 12 year olds.


Sometimes they're younger.

[Cam63]

more like grief and revenge has no age limit
People forget that Russian has a Civil war going on and instantly jump to "ISLAMIC EXTREMISTS!"

Are you saying the people who convinced these kids to strap on explosives and blow themselves along with civilians up aren't evil ?

[40footwolf]

Are you saying the people who convinced these kids to strap on explosives and blow themselves along with civilians up aren't evil ?

I don't think they were suicide bombers.

I will agree with you that evil is less of a genetic disorder and more of an infection.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Are you saying the people who convinced these kids to strap on explosives and blow themselves along with civilians up aren't evil ?

I think that when you use more bombs on one country than the amount used in World War 2, you're going to create legions of people who will do anything for revenge.

[CYOTI]

I think that when you use more bombs on one country than the amount used in World War 2, you're going to create legions of people who will do anything for revenge.

Such as with America in the Middle East. The situation with the Russians in the Caucasus is the same.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Such as with America in the Middle East. The situation with the Russians in the Caucasus is the same.

Not hardly. What the United States is doing in the Middle Easty doesn't begin to compare to what Russia's done to Chechnya

[CYOTI]

Edit Deleted

[Ship]

Such as with America in the Middle East. The situation with the Russians in the Caucasus is the same.

I don't think it's fair to compare the two. While it's certainly true that there have been some unpleasant episodes involving US and allied forces in Afghanistan and Iraq, for the most part the allies reign themselves in very hard and even add to the risk faced by their troops in order to avoid civilian casualties.

By contrast, Russia's behaviour in Chechnya over the last sixteen years or so has been nothing but state-sponsored murder and torture.

[K-DoG7p7]

Are you saying the people who convinced these kids to strap on explosives and blow themselves along with civilians up aren't evil ?

no one is convincing the black widows to do anything.. no one needs to they have allready lost everything.

[Cam63]

I guess they know what they're doing then.

Carry on, crazy sheilas.

[shrike]

Evil has no age limit.

Neither does stupidity.

Nothing says 'I'm an idiot' like holding up a gun while giving 'duckface'.

[Cam63]

Is that the same thing as pissing off a Maori bouncer ?

[Lester C.]

Are you saying the people who convinced these kids to strap on explosives and blow themselves along with civilians up aren't evil ?

I don't know anymore. This was evil, that part I do know. But I think of things like the Bombing of Dresden and ask myself if anyone can claim to be good when they have done, or if you are just an average citizen, benefited from so much bad. I'm drinking coffee right now bought from Walmart and that decision has resulted in me funding a lot of evil shit around the globe. !@#$ me, I see why people drink now.

[Electric i]

What is "evil" exactly? Is it evil for the a government to overthrow democracies and/or set up puppet dictatorships like the US did in Chile, Guatemala, Iran, Greece, South Korea, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq?

When China does it in Tibet, it is an unconscionable violation of culture and human rights.

When Russia does it in Chechnya, it is state-sponsored murder and rape.

When the US does it in the Philipines and Indonesia, it is "preserving our interests."

What is "evil" exactly?

[Ship]

What is "evil" exactly? Is it evil for the a government to overthrow democracies and/or set up puppet dictatorships like the US did in Chile, Guatemala, Iran, Greece, South Korea, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq?

When China does it in Tibet, it is an unconscionable violation of culture and human rights.

When Russia does it in Chechnya, it is state-sponsored murder and rape.

When the US does it in the Philipines and Indonesia, it is "preserving our interests."

What is "evil" exactly?

LOL None of those countries have ever been "democracies".

Also, the US didn't overthrow anyone in Greece. The Greek Army did it for them and against a right-wing government. Not the left-wingers the US was normally inclined to let die.

South Korea has only been a democracy for the last 15 years or so. Before the US ever became involved in Korea it was a Japanes colony. There was no democracy to overthrow.

Indonesia? Dutch colony, occupied by Japan, wins independence against the Dutch after the war, spends the next 50 years as a dictatorship with little help from anyone. Also spent some time going around invading nearby colonies of NATO allies. Not likely to get much support from the US.

[Charles RB]

LOL None of those countries have ever been "democracies".

Iran brought in a constitution with electoral powers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Constitution_of_1906) in 1906, and had an elected parliament. A fully democractic government came in later, but was overthrown in 1953 by the CIA and MI6. Even then, the parliament remained and voting rights were extended to women in 1963.

(And they still have elections following the Islamic Revolution; the 2008 election was fixed, but the mass unrest that caused - and the assumption by other Iranians that the protestors are just whining that their party lost - isn't the sort of thing you'd get if everyone expected elections to be fixed)


the US didn't overthrow anyone in Greece. The Greek Army did it for them and against a right-wing government.

Correct, the US didn't assist the junta in taking over. It did, however, back them after they'd taken over (as they were a NATO ally; same with Portugal).

They didn't rebel against a right wing government though. They rebelled against a centrist government which was likely to form an alliance with a left-wing party, and their justification was that they were protecting against Communist subversion.

[40footwolf]

What is "evil" exactly? Is it evil for the a government to overthrow democracies and/or set up puppet dictatorships like the US did in Chile, Guatemala, Iran, Greece, South Korea, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq?

When China does it in Tibet, it is an unconscionable violation of culture and human rights.

When Russia does it in Chechnya, it is state-sponsored murder and rape.

When the US does it in the Philipines and Indonesia, it is "preserving our interests."

What is "evil" exactly?

What IS evil is murdering a whole lot of people who have nothing to do with you and have done you no harm.

[Ship]

Iran brought in a constitution with electoral powers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Constitution_of_1906) in 1906, and had an elected parliament. A fully democractic government came in later, but was overthrown in 1953 by the CIA and MI6. Even then, the parliament remained and voting rights were extended to women in 1963.

(And they still have elections following the Islamic Revolution; the 2008 election was fixed, but the mass unrest that caused - and the assumption by other Iranians that the protestors are just whining that their party lost - isn't the sort of thing you'd get if everyone expected elections to be fixed)


You are right of course. I was thinking of Islamic Iran and the preceeding rule of the Shah. I had forgotten about that.

You are also right about elections in Iran. However, even if those elections were completely free and honest, I don't think that alone would qualify Iran (or anyone else) as a democracy.

You also need some amount of freedom of the press, assembly, speech and religion amongst other things and all of these are severely lacking in Iran.

[Charles RB]

However, even if those elections were completely free and honest, I don't think that alone would qualify Iran (or anyone else) as a democracy.

It would need more civil rights and freedoms to count as a modern democracy, true.

[Iangould]

Indonesia? Dutch colony, occupied by Japan, wins independence against the Dutch after the war, spends the next 50 years as a dictatorship with little help from anyone.

You left out the free elections and democratic government of the 1950's and 1960's.

[/QUOTE]Also spent some time going around invading nearby colonies of NATO allies. [/QUOTE]

Presumably you're referring to Malaya (where you ave half a point) and to Papua - which had been an integral part of the Dutch East Indies for the better part of a century up until the late 40's when the Dutch suddenly made it (and various other bits of the KNI) separate colonies to avoid giving them their independence as part of Indonesia when the Dutch got their arses kicked out of the Sundas.

[Iangould]

What IS evil is murdering a whole lot of people who have nothing to do with you and have done you no harm.

So we're agreed that the Russian invasion of Chechnya was evil?

[Ship]

You left out the free elections and democratic government of the 1950's and 1960's.

Except that it was Sukarno himself (Indonesia's first president) who turned the country into a dictatorship.

[/QUOTE]Presumably you're referring to Malaya (where you ave half a point) and to Papua - which had been an integral part of the Dutch East Indies for the better part of a century up until the late 40's when the Dutch suddenly made it (and various other bits of the KNI) separate colonies to avoid giving them their independence as part of Indonesia when the Dutch got their arses kicked out of the Sundas.[/QUOTE]

Actually I was referring to East Timor which was a Portugese colony until invaded by Indonesia in 1975


So we're agreed that the Russian invasion of Chechnya was evil?

Russia's behaviour in Chechnya certainly is evil. As I said in an earlier post, it's little more than state-sponsored murder and torture.

However, Chechnya has been a part of Russia since the 18th century. I believe that Russia has a right to defend it's territorial integrity from seperatists as much as any other country would.

Also, Russia's behaviour does not excuse blowing up a bunch of people who are just trying to get to work and have nothing to do with what's happening in Chechnya.

[Electric i]

So we're agreed that the Russian invasion of Chechnya was evil?

No, Russia was just "protecting it's interests" in the Caucasus region and while "there were a few bad apples" in the military, on the whole they conducted themselves with surprising restraint.

[Libaax]

This is just another sad case of people doing horrible things because of other horrible things has done to them. Its a vicious cycle.

People are forgiving nations killing "to protect their interest" but when there is consequences of someone desperate fighting back using a bomb on civilians its suddenly evil...

What about the civilians in Chechya,Iraq,Agfanistan that got killed...

The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic.

[Mark_Parnell]

So we're agreed that the Russian invasion of Chechnya was evil?

I don't think its that simple to be honest. Were evil deeds comitted by both sides (rape and pillage), yes but one country's right to defend and another country's right to protect its interests does not make them evil. It terms of innocent's being killed much like what just occurred in Moscow, it is more of a cowardly act then pure evil. Systematically targeting a specific race and or culture to eliminate is evil. War is hell, gone are the days where Generals would lead their troops into battle's on fields far from the public eye. It's total now and no one is safe and it's horrible and cowardly.

[Charles RB]

Actually I was referring to East Timor which was a Portugese colony until invaded by Indonesia in 1975

It had stopped being a Portuguese colony when the Indonesians invaded - they made sure to go in before anyone important got round to recognising East Timor as an independent state.


I don't think its that simple to be honest.

The deliberate murder of civilians is pretty evil.

[40footwolf]

So we're agreed that the Russian invasion of Chechnya was evil?

From what it sounds like, yeah, although I'm really not educated enough on the subject to say.