Final Fantasy XIII.

[gorthon616]

Just finished the game a few hours ago, and I have to say for the most part I really enjoyed it. Was kind of iffy about only being able to control one character in combat but I was glad to see how much control I still had over them through the paradigm shift. It seems like a lot of people don't like Snow but I don't really see why. For me Snow along with Sazh were my two favorite characters. He is very optimistic, and while he does go around calling himself a hero every chance he got but it never felt to me like he was bragging or being arrogant. It seemed to me more like it was a show he put on to keep peoples moral up. I was also pleased to see that the characters I did have a problem with worked most of them out by the time they got to Gran Pulse. Hope grew a pair, I stopped noticing how awkward Vanille's accent was, and Lightning stopped being a total bitch. (Was I the only one who actually laughed out loud at the "this is the worst birthday ever?" line?)

While I didn't like Snow, I did find him surprisingly not as bad as I thought he was going to be. Contrariwise Lighting didn't come off as well as I expected. I thought they were both Okay. Sazh is awesome though.

[Shades0077]

Glad to know I'm not the only one who thought so but yeah, I agree. I think Square-Enix missed an opportunity for some good storytelling with that.

I thought the same thing. I remember Fang called Vanille her "partner" during one cutscene.

[Guest_1001]

I thought the same thing. I remember Fang called Vanille her "partner" during one cutscene.

She did? Huh, I didn't notice that. Or if I did, I probably didn't think anything of it at the time.

I bet Fang and Vanille really are in a relationship but Square-Enix just didn't want the hassle from oversensitive media sources or the publicity from people who raved about having a same-sex couple in a game (or possibly an unjust higher age rating). Although I'd accept it far more willingly than the Snow/Serah coupling, since Serah looks about 14 years old and that's just creepy ...

Fang started out as a male character, so I wonder if a relationship was considered between "him" and Vanille back then.

[Kage Kisaragi]

after beating this game the only thing i enjoyed was the leveling system, its like a mix of 12 and 10.. everyone eventually has access to the same grids but some people are better at it than others... the story was just eh to me, if not for the occassional distraction such as Lightnings sexy walk, i wouldn't even remember most scenes. speaking of walking, does anyone find her (lightnings) strut kind of out of place considering the situation shes in with her fellow comrades?

I mean im no women but if I were in immenant danger and potentially going to die strutting would be the last thing my movement would look like.

I guess thats just part of her charm though.

[Kage Kisaragi]

She did? Huh, I didn't notice that. Or if I did, I probably didn't think anything of it at the time.

I bet Fang and Vanille really are in a relationship but Square-Enix just didn't want the hassle from oversensitive media sources or the publicity from people who raved about having a same-sex couple in a game (or possibly an unjust higher age rating). Although I'd accept it far more willingly than the Snow/Serah coupling, since Serah looks about 14 years old and that's just creepy ...

Fang started out as a male character, so I wonder if a relationship was considered between "him" and Vanille back then.

Um you guys do realize they both come from the same tribe and even share the same last name. Fang calls Vanille her family, at one point. While none of this disproves some other type of relationship between them, im sure its not in the same western text of Lesbian lovers. The idea of relationships is a lot more broader in other cultures than what most westernized nations preceive.

relationships between sisters or fellow family members can sometimes be a lot closer than that we would preceive as being safe or comfortable. I wouldn't check my kid brothers body for tattoo's like Fang did and would probably urge some kind of proffessional to take a look at him but considering the tribal culture behind both characters it doesn't seem so odd for her to do that, especially since they are both girls.

if Fang was a guy it would require square to go into more exposition about just what is the relationship between Fang and Vanile. Also there is the whole thing about them being the last of their kind, (inhabitants of Grand Pulse) which makes them pretty much only familiar with each other and their customs.

Besides Vanille is fanboy bait, no way square would intentionally endanger her status and the chance that it might sell games or sour some players perception of the character. Last I heard Japan is still very much conservative, and open same sex affairs are still taboo.

[gorthon616]

Um you guys do realize they both come from the same tribe and even share the same last name. Fang calls Vanille her family, at one point. While none of this disproves some other type of relationship between them, im sure its not in the same western text of Lesbian lovers. The idea of relationships is a lot more broader in other cultures than what most westernized nations preceive.

relationships between sisters or fellow family members can sometimes be a lot closer than that we would preceive as being safe or comfortable. I wouldn't check my kid brothers body for tattoo's like Fang did and would probably urge some kind of proffessional to take a look at him but considering the tribal culture behind both characters it doesn't seem so odd for her to do that, especially since they are both girls.

if Fang was a guy it would require square to go into more exposition about just what is the relationship between Fang and Vanile. Also there is the whole thing about them being the last of their kind, (inhabitants of Grand Pulse) which makes them pretty much only familiar with each other and their customs.

Besides Vanille is fanboy bait, no way square would intentionally endanger her status and the chance that it might sell games or sour some players perception of the character. Last I heard Japan is still very much conservative, and open same sex affairs are still taboo.

The other game they released had a hermaphrodite. I guess that's a little bit different, but I don't think they wouldn't put a homosexual couple in the game.

[Guest_1001]

Um you guys do realize they both come from the same tribe and even share the same last name. Fang calls Vanille her family, at one point. While none of this disproves some other type of relationship between them, im sure its not in the same western text of Lesbian lovers. The idea of relationships is a lot more broader in other cultures than what most westernized nations preceive.

relationships between sisters or fellow family members can sometimes be a lot closer than that we would preceive as being safe or comfortable. I wouldn't check my kid brothers body for tattoo's like Fang did and would probably urge some kind of proffessional to take a look at him but considering the tribal culture behind both characters it doesn't seem so odd for her to do that, especially since they are both girls.

if Fang was a guy it would require square to go into more exposition about just what is the relationship between Fang and Vanile. Also there is the whole thing about them being the last of their kind, (inhabitants of Grand Pulse) which makes them pretty much only familiar with each other and their customs.

Besides Vanille is fanboy bait, no way square would intentionally endanger her status and the chance that it might sell games or sour some players perception of the character. Last I heard Japan is still very much conservative, and open same sex affairs are still taboo.

Hmm, you make some good points. Enough for me to be a little more doubtful but I feel another playthrough is in order to check. Or it would be if I could be bothered to start over.

But there are a few points against it; about their names -- Oerba Dia Vanille and Oerba Yun Fang, if I remember rightly -- their last names (or first names, in this case) are the same because they're from the same place. Everyone in Oerba would have the same last name and some of them were more likely to be in relationships than none of them; if not, each of them would have to have a partner from another village and that would make the names trickier. It's unlikely that nobody in Oerba was in a relationship with each other. So I think "Dia" and "Yun" are more comparable to surnames, although that's just a guess, but I think it's possible.

On the subject of same-sex relationships in Japan ... well, I don't know enough about that to comment but there was a Nintendo DS game made by Square-Enix called The World Ends With You that featured a male character called Joshua, who was fairly openly gay. In the "Another Day" bonus mode, that is, with far worse dialogue and characterisations than the main game ... but the point still stands.

[Kage Kisaragi]

Figures this game would be on the DS, i wonder if there is a connection between this open gay game and the DS. I'm just saying... All joking aside, im just not big on Fang and Vanille being a couple, also no one seems to question it in game.. Also Fang is to kick ass a character to be done that to.

I do agree on one point though, I don't care enough to play this game all over.

[Guest_1001]

All joking aside, im just not big on Fang and Vanille being a couple, also no one seems to question it in game.. Also Fang is to kick ass a character to be done that to.

I do agree on one point though, I don't care enough to play this game all over.

It's not that I don't care enough but it's just very linear for a very long time. I wouldn't mind if it was shorter or if I at least had the same freedom with the Crystarium that I did with the Sphere Grid but I don't. And I don't actually mind FFXIII being linear ... once. Just not for another playthrough.

The thing is though, there's no reason why any characters would question Fang and Vanille being a couple. If they weren't meant to be, then the characters would just take it at face value, and if they were, who's to say what the opinion on same-sex couples is on Cocoon/Gran Pulse? It's probably as accepted as it is here, if not more so. It would make sense, if the game's writers didn't want to deal with issues of in-universe homophobia.

And Fang being too kickass to be a lesbian? I don't see how you came to that conclusion.

[zodiark_the_dark_one]

well Fang and vanille are the really main chracter not lightning, beside if fang stayed as a male fang would eventually fall for vanille they only share the tribes name their not related

[Kage Kisaragi]

well Fang and vanille are the really main chracter not lightning, beside if fang stayed as a male fang would eventually fall for vanille they only share the tribes name their not related

Except Fang saying she made a promise to protect her family.

[Guest_1001]

Except Fang saying she made a promise to protect her family.

Two points about that though; one is that she was also talking about the other characters -- their "new family" -- and the other is that your romantic partner can also be part of your family. Obviously I don't mean your sister or something like that (ew!) but if you're romantic with someone who you feel close to -- I would say "wife" but we don't know how it works with same-sex couples on Gran Pulse -- then they're part of your family.

Anyway, I don't want this to hijack the thread, so I'm happy if people want to discuss anything else concerning FFXIII.

[gorthon616]

well Fang and vanille are the really main chracter not lightning, beside if fang stayed as a male fang would eventually fall for vanille they only share the tribes name their not related

I don't really think you can say there is a main character in the story.

[zodiark_the_dark_one]

well its an opinion if u looked at it vanille as a tragic heroe who ran away from fate, in doing so got people caught in a web, but finally owned up to her mistake in doing so she faced her fear by changing fate with fang instead of destroying cocoon she saved it with the help of the souls of gran pulse that i think,

[Tazirai]

after beating this game the only thing i enjoyed was the leveling system, its like a mix of 12 and 10.. everyone eventually has access to the same grids but some people are better at it than others... the story was just eh to me, if not for the occassional distraction such as Lightnings sexy walk, i wouldn't even remember most scenes. speaking of walking, does anyone find her (lightnings) strut kind of out of place considering the situation shes in with her fellow comrades?

I mean im no women but if I were in immenant danger and potentially going to die strutting would be the last thing my movement would look like.

I guess thats just part of her charm though.

I LOVE the battle and leveling system. The storyline was okay, not the best. Sazh is still my favorite, I even like Vanille. But I'm so glad they didnt make a FF7 clone. So sick of the comparisons of ALL post FF7 games to it.
The thing Square Enix needs to do is remove Tetsuya Nomura from the Final Fantasy series. Get some new Blood and go from there. I like Nomura but his style needs to go. He's influenced waay to many Final fantasy games. Hell Kingdom Hearts is his baby, he's good.

[Alex]

I LOVE the battle and leveling system. The storyline was okay, not the best. Sazh is still my favorite, I even like Vanille. But I'm so glad they didnt make a FF7 clone. So sick of the comparisons of ALL post FF7 games to it.
The thing Square Enix needs to do is remove Tetsuya Nomura from the Final Fantasy series. Get some new Blood and go from there. I like Nomura but his style needs to go. He's influenced waay to many Final fantasy games. Hell Kingdom Hearts is his baby, he's good.

But what will we do without belts and zippers all over our characters?!?!?!?!?


SquareEnix didn't come out and describe a homosexual relationship in FF13 because that would have been slighty original for a videogame, and Square is clearly no longer interested in being original.
Or developing interesting characters.
Or telling a story properly.
I'm still trying to figure out why the vast majority of exposition is delivered through fricken data files i have to open a menu to read when the first 20 hours of the game crawl by at a friggen snails pace. I truly beleive that a game this linear cannot defend the horrible way in which it's story is told.
If you introduce a concept and don't tell people what it means, you don't tell them they can read about it somewhere else.
The entire game was lazy, and they had plenty of time to work out a way to fit their exposition in.
And staggered flashbacks only work if you put them into the story in a way that relates somewhat to what is currently going on!!!!!

They broke almost every single rule of how to tell a compelling narative in this game, even if you like the characters.

[Guest_1001]

I LOVE the battle and leveling system. The storyline was okay, not the best. Sazh is still my favorite, I even like Vanille.

I'm glad to hear that because I actually really like Vanille too. I like her far more than the other characters of her type, like Rikku, Yuffie and Penelo (although I probably liked Selphie a little better).


But what will we do without belts and zippers all over our characters?!?!?!?!?

Lol, would the character designs change if Nomura took a step back? I don't really know a lot about key figures in Japanese game development.


SquareEnix didn't come out and describe a homosexual relationship in FF13 because that would have been slighty original for a videogame, and Square is clearly no longer interested in being original.
Or developing interesting characters.
Or telling a story properly.

Huh, I'd say that's true to an extent. But to another extent, I'd say that the story is all they care about. They focus too much on making Lightning do silly "badass" moves and coming up with annoying in-universe terms that nobody can make head nor tail of (l'Cie, Pulse Fal'Cie, Sanctum Fal'Cie, Cie'th, Focus, PSICOM, Cavalry, Guardian Corps, Sanctum, Cocoon, Pulse, etc).

However, I can't quite come to admit that Square are no longer interested in making original videogames. I mentioned a DS game made by Square in this thread a few posts back called The World Ends With You, which was far better than I ever thought it would be and, if there was one thing it was, it was original. Weird, sure, and a story that started out simple enough descended into gibberish later on but, in an age where gaming is focused endlessly on "casual gaming" and being geared more and more towards online play, I never thought such a devoted single-player game like that would exist, especially on the DS. And I have Square to thank for that.

[gorthon616]

well its an opinion if u looked at it vanille as a tragic heroe who ran away from fate, in doing so got people caught in a web, but finally owned up to her mistake in doing so she faced her fear by changing fate with fang instead of destroying cocoon she saved it with the help of the souls of gran pulse that i think,

well, i'm speaking structurally. the story really doesn't give you much of a main protagonist. certainly, you can focus on your preferred characters if you want, but that's different than saying "FFXIII is this story about a girl named Vanille...." the story really isn't about any of them, they are all more supporting characters.

[gorthon616]

But what will we do without belts and zippers all over our characters?!?!?!?!?


SquareEnix didn't come out and describe a homosexual relationship in FF13 because that would have been slighty original for a videogame, and Square is clearly no longer interested in being original.
Or developing interesting characters.
Or telling a story properly.
I'm still trying to figure out why the vast majority of exposition is delivered through fricken data files i have to open a menu to read when the first 20 hours of the game crawl by at a friggen snails pace. I truly beleive that a game this linear cannot defend the horrible way in which it's story is told.
If you introduce a concept and don't tell people what it means, you don't tell them they can read about it somewhere else.
The entire game was lazy, and they had plenty of time to work out a way to fit their exposition in.
And staggered flashbacks only work if you put them into the story in a way that relates somewhat to what is currently going on!!!!!

They broke almost every single rule of how to tell a compelling narative in this game, even if you like the characters.

I disagree on "homosexual relationship = good story" though I know many people feel that way.

But aside from that, I agree. The storytelling was horrible.

[Vivica Kang]

Fang/ Lighting were my favorite...Fang reminded me of Lulu just a bit with her bold personality and Lighting had my attention during the game. She kept thinking she was nothing. just trying to save her sister...And it yet she had the team work together to get them out of sticky situations!

[whiteshark]

Did anybody finish all the missions for the "statues" in Gran Pulse.
I am doing that in the game,but is taking quite a while to do so,there are over sixty missions and the last ones equalls being the toughest boss`s of the game.

Just the giant cactuar is nearly impossible to beat,i tried it a couple of times and did not last longer that a minute or two.

[Guest_1001]

Did anybody finish all the missions for the "statues" in Gran Pulse.
I am doing that in the game,but is taking quite a while to do so,there are over sixty missions and the last ones equalls being the toughest boss`s of the game.

Just the giant cactuar is nearly impossible to beat,i tried it a couple of times and did not last longer that a minute or two.

I haven't beat them all yet but I'm building up to it. I find it odd that I can beat the final Undying -- the one with 9,000,000 health -- but can't beat an Adamantoise. Or the Jumbo Cactuar. I haven't completed the Crystarium yet, y'see. Just so I don't feel like a total loser (or do end up feeling like a total badass) did anyone else do something similar?

EDIT: I realise I've got the names of those marks wrong. FFVIII gamer here, so I tend to stick to those names.

[whiteshark]

I haven't beat them all yet but I'm building up to it. I find it odd that I can beat the final Undying -- the one with 9,000,000 health -- but can't beat an Adamantoise. Or the Jumbo Cactuar. I haven't completed the Crystarium yet, y'see. Just so I don't feel like a total loser (or do end up feeling like a total badass) did anyone else do something similar?

EDIT: I realise I've got the names of those marks wrong. FFVIII gamer here, so I tend to stick to those names.

I have not beat any adamantoise either.
Those and the Jumbo Cactuar are imposible to my characters to beat,i`d say i just have to grind up the characters a lot more before actually being able to beat up the jumbo cactuar or the adamantoise`s.

Anyways i had no idea that the gran pulse area had so much to do,just the missions for the statues are over 60.

[Vivica Kang]

I'm reading this awesome fanfiction about Lighting and the gang and it makes me appriate Fangs character more than I already have.

She didn't get my attention at first..But now. I love her!

[End of Time]

stand by what I've said earlier.

This game just isn't very good.

It's mindnumbingly linear.

Even when you get to Gran Pulse it's linear as hell. It looks like it's an open playing field, but it really isn't. The side quests are there to make grinding look a bit less like grinding, but it still is. They all follow the same path. You approach a stone, activate it, go hunt a creature, you kill it, and you can go to the next stone, activate it, find the creature, kill the creature, and so on and so on.

Not only that but I lost track of the whole story while running around on Pulse doing the various side quests.

There are no characters to talk to, you never interact with anyone, you just run around killing creatures. Your actions have no consequences to the story, it rolls on, despite the things you've done in earlier levels and chapters. It doesn't matter how you're upgrading your characters, because you're always going to end up upgrading the three roles you've been assigned at the start of the game, and you are always going to max those out, because you've got too much crystarium not to max everything out. Not only that, but you can't make a choice with your stats, you're following the set path and you can't make any sort of radical choice in the various roles. You're a commando, and if you've got a level five commando, it's going to look the same as my level five commando.

Only the weapons are different per game, and even then it's sort of pricey to upgrade the weapons you're not using, so you don't upgrade them, and since they don't have a radical impact on the way your play the game, they're a wasted extra.

The story isn't there, sure, you've got cut-scenes left and right, and they look amazing, but to get the actual story you have to plow through the backlog like a whipped bitch. The cut-scenes are enough to make you look forward to the next one, but they're lacking in that you're wondering what the hell is actually going on inbetween those cut-scenes.

You have no influence over those cut-scenes, they're placed at set points, and nothing you do actually has an impact on which cut-scenes you get to see.

With the fact that you're just running around in a tube killing creatures, it really doesn't get me involved in the story, in fact, I think I'd love this game if the actual game bits were replaced with more CGI, CGI that actually explains stuff to me and show the characters interacting with other characters, making real choices, and then moving forward.

You know... like a movie.

For instance, you went to Gran Pulse, but in terms of story, what did you actually do there?

[Guest_1001]

End Of Time, I think you make some good points but certainly have to disagree. The thing is, I don't think the game being linear necessarily makes it a bad game. It's certainly not what you expect from a Final Fantasy game, sure, and combined with the length, it certainly made sure it was a game I only wanted to play through once. But it was also a very good game and I would kill for most games to be that long, even if they were as linear.

The thing is, it probably won't rank alongside great Final Fantasies, simply because of the linearity, but it deserves to be seen as a good game.


Even when you get to Gran Pulse it's linear as hell. It looks like it's an open playing field, but it really isn't. The side quests are there to make grinding look a bit less like grinding, but it still is. They all follow the same path. You approach a stone, activate it, go hunt a creature, you kill it, and you can go to the next stone, activate it, find the creature, kill the creature, and so on and so on.

True but you don't have to. And you can choose which ones you want. Yeah, I know that sounds really petty and I know it's not the most freedom you'll ever get but it still isn't linear in the true sense of the word.


Not only that but I lost track of the whole story while running around on Pulse doing the various side quests ...

... The story isn't there, sure, you've got cut-scenes left and right, and they look amazing, but to get the actual story you have to plow through the backlog like a whipped bitch. The cut-scenes are enough to make you look forward to the next one, but they're lacking in that you're wondering what the hell is actually going on inbetween those cut-scenes.

You have no influence over those cut-scenes, they're placed at set points, and nothing you do actually has an impact on which cut-scenes you get to see.

With the fact that you're just running around in a tube killing creatures, it really doesn't get me involved in the story, in fact, I think I'd love this game if the actual game bits were replaced with more CGI, CGI that actually explains stuff to me and show the characters interacting with other characters, making real choices, and then moving forward.

You know... like a movie.

For instance, you went to Gran Pulse, but in terms of story, what did you actually do there?

... Good, frankly. I make it no secret that I dislike the story in FF games and I don't think anybody should be playing games for the story. However, contrary to what other people were saying, it was actually the only FF story I've liked (except for the ending, although most FF games spiralled into nonsense much quicker). I didn't have to put up with garbage like Squall being made "Commander" of Balamb Garden in spite of there being far more experienced and approachable people for a leadership position. Or Tidus being an infallible pretty boy whose arse would be licked by everyone if he asked them to.

Bleh, sorry to vent. All I'm saying is that no real FF story is up to much in my opinion. It doesn't matter though. I play games for games, rather than stories or -- that great, stupid idea that people seem to love so much these days -- achievements. And the thing is, no FF game lets you dictate the way the story goes, really, unless you count little things like different characters riding the snowmobile with Tidus. Besides, there are some smaller cutscenes that you don't have to see, like Hope and Vanille talking at the Yaschas Massif.


There are no characters to talk to, you never interact with anyone, you just run around killing creatures. Your actions have no consequences to the story, it rolls on, despite the things you've done in earlier levels and chapters. It doesn't matter how you're upgrading your characters, because you're always going to end up upgrading the three roles you've been assigned at the start of the game, and you are always going to max those out, because you've got too much crystarium not to max everything out. Not only that, but you can't make a choice with your stats, you're following the set path and you can't make any sort of radical choice in the various roles. You're a commando, and if you've got a level five commando, it's going to look the same as my level five commando.

I agree with you on most of this. It really is a poor man's sphere grid.


Only the weapons are different per game, and even then it's sort of pricey to upgrade the weapons you're not using, so you don't upgrade them, and since they don't have a radical impact on the way your play the game, they're a wasted extra.

Well yeah but you could say that about Blitzball or Triple Triad or whatever the FF9 card game was called (especially since you couldn't even trade those cards in for items). If anything, I'd say that it's the weapon upgrading that keeps me doing all those Cie'th Stone missions.

[Zero Hunter]

I have to agree with EOT here. The game just gets boring. I have had the thing since it came out and still have not made it past chapter 9 simply because I get so bored I start playing something else. For the last 4 games (IX, X, X2, and XII) I have not stopped once I started playing them until I finished them, but this one I can take out and not touch for weeks at a time. My biggest grip besides some of the character being just mindnumbingly annoying is the weapons upgrade system. So far it has just been such a waste of time. Maybe it gets better as you go on but so far it is jsut a complete joke.

This has defiently been my least favorite of the FF games I have played so far.