So, how much does gordon know, exactly?

[blaXXer]

I was just re-reading blackest Night: Batman, and I noticed that, when Damian was getting Gordon and Babs to safety we see Alfred in the background helping them...
So how much does Gordon actually know about who are the current and past Bat-Men?

Looking back to NML, when Bruce wanted to unmask in Gordon's backyard and he turned away, not wanting to know who as under the cowl...what changed his mind?

[RonnieThunderbolts]

I was just re-reading blackest Night: Batman, and I noticed that, when Damian was getting Gordon and Babs to safety we see Alfred in the background helping them...
So how much does Gordon actually know about who are the current and past Bat-Men?

Looking back to NML, when Bruce wanted to unmask in Gordon's backyard and he turned away, not wanting to know who as under the cowl...what changed his mind?

Good question. As near as I can tell, nothing has changed his mind. In that No Man's Land scene you reference Gordon even says, how do you know he doesn't already know who is under the mask, that he preferred to continue "not knowing," implying heavily that he is aware of Batman's true identity, but that he is in denial, probably for both emotional (Barbara's involvement) and legal (his responsibilities are sometimes in conflict with Batman's methods) benefit. Personally, I don't think having Alfred in some of the same the scenes in Blackest Night doesn't necessarily change anything, and it certainly doesn't confirm either way whether or not he is now acknowledging whatever it is that he knows.

[blaXXer]

Oh but in these scenes, with Gordon being in the Bat-Bunker, and Alfred working for Batman and Robin, actually talking to Gordon by then, surely he has to know. Yes, sure he can still pretend to be ignorant but he is not THAT dumb ;)

By now, he surely has to know that Bruce Wayne is *somehow* involved in all of this, not to mention Grayson, Drake and Damian.

/edit: that's the panel I was referring to:

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e182/blaXXer/gordon_batbunker.jpg

[RonnieThunderbolts]

Oh but in these scenes, with Gordon being in the Bat-Bunker, and Alfred working for Batman and Robin, actually talking to Gordon by then, surely he has to know. Yes, sure he can still pretend to be ignorant but he is not THAT dumb ;)

By now, he surely has to know that Bruce Wayne is *somehow* involved in all of this, not to mention Grayson, Drake and Damian.

As I said though, in the No Man's Land quote he intimated he was already aware of Batman's double life. He is totally just playing dumb.

[blaXXer]

Sure, I got that, I may have worded my response wrongly, tho: Can he still play dumb when it's made so obvious? Should he?

I think it was time it was adressed in the comics, at least somehow.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

I don't think it is necessary to talk about it, at least, for Gordon to talk about it. I think he has his reasons for his denial. But, I wouldn't be annoyed if Bruce, after coming back, filled in Damian that Gordon knows way more than he lets on, or, that he has his reasons for not acknowledging what he knows, or something to that effect, as I'd presume Alfred, Dick and Tim are aware (in addition to Bruce and Barbara) that Jim is aware of their identities, but it isn't spoken of. For one thing, in addition to Gordon's personal reasons, not really talking about it is probably good for their anonymity, less chance of being overheard if it is never spoken outloud.

[thwhtGuardian]

I've always thought the reason he plays dumb isn't that he doesn't want the bat family to know that he's in on the secret but rather it's so the public of Gotham City doesn't think that he knows.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

I've always thought the reason he plays dumb isn't that he doesn't want the bat family to know that he's in on the secret but rather it's so the public of Gotham City doesn't think that he knows.

Absolutely.

[FHIZ]

Also in NML he lives it very open ended when he says that for all Batman knows that he could have figured it out already. I think he chooses not to acknowledge who is under the cowl due to his duty as a cop. Batman isn't really the most legal public figure in Gotham. He'd probably have a "duty" to arrest him, but doesn't because he knows how much Gotham needs Batman.

Also, he's pretty astute to the going ons within the Batfam. Like during Battle for the Cowl he obviously knows something happened to Batman when he asks Nightwing "Are you okay son?" and if I'm correct in one of the recent series he takes notice that it isn't the same Batman.

[Jorriss]

I've always taken NML's as a strike against him knowing.

Why would he have been mad at Batman for leaving if he knew Bruce Wayne left to try and get federal funding?

[elbobbo]

I think it really depends on who's writing as to how aware Gordon is of the truth.
Also I believe that in one of the early B&R there is a scene where he comments that he knows it is not the same Batman and that "the new Robin seems familiar"

[Kate Fatale]

I've always thought that deep down Gordon knows, but, for reasons others have stated already, can't and/or won't acknowledge it. He's a sharp guy.

I always loved those scenes in BTAS when Bruce did something particularly Batman-y in front of Gordon, then tried to fake stupidity or cowardice to explain what he'd just done. I wanted Gordon to put a hand on his shoulder and tell him to just stop it.

I think it really depends on who's writing as to how aware Gordon is of the truth.
Also I believe that in one of the early B&R there is a scene where he comments that he knows it is not the same Batman and that "the new Robin seems familiar"
Yeah, Talia should have thought that through a bit, considering she's the one who tells him that this is Batman's son, then Hush calls Damian Bruce's son on TV and so forth.

On a similar subject, is it still ambiguous as to whether or not Gordon knows about Babs? Sometimes in the past he's known, but I'm not sure if that's still continuity or not.

[Darthhobbit]

I think Gordon knows, I believe in Dark Knight Returns the reason Gordon knows is because when Bruce "retires" Gordon says he always knew. Plus I agree, Gordon is no idiot and he must have noticed Oracle doing weird things(she is his daughter after all, there is a connection) and Alfred helping Batman/Robin must have backed up his deductions. I just think Gordon knows and chooses to doubt so he doesnt feel obliged to say anything.

[Choppa]

Obviously in the new continuity free stories it depends on who is writing the book that will determine if Gordon should act if he should know or not.

That scene in NML reminded me how little continuity matters anymore. In it Gordon was pretty upset that Bruce didn't let him know when he had JPV and Dick being Batman, but now he notices something different about (Dick) Batman but doesn't seem to care. There's not even a mention of that scene having taken place.

[Lester C.]

Don't forget when Babs confessed he said he already knew but didn't know about her being Oracle. So I think he knows some of it but not all.

[BillCarson]

Doesn't he pretty much figure it out in Year One and use not having his glasses as plausible deniability?

[Chad]

Doesn't he pretty much figure it out in Year One and use not having his glasses as plausible deniability?

It's a possibility that his "I'm practically blind without my glasses" was a ruse but it's not like he then tells Batman he's got something stuck in his teeth. If it were a lie, I think the world's greatest detective would've caught on by now in which case, Batman would have no doubt that Gordon knows. Since Batman doesn't seem to be certain one way or the other (or seems to assume Gordon doesn't know) I don't think the Commissioner knew that early on. This does raise an interesting question: if Gordon knows, when did he learn the truth?

I personally would prefer that Gordon not know, but at the same time, I couldn't really argue with a revelation that he does. However, I wouldn't find it credible to learn that Gordon found out any time prior to the death of Jason Todd. There were just too many instances in which Gordon seems oblivious to the fact that Robin was killed despite his having attended Jason's funeral. In Batman 431, he asks Batman if Robin's with him that night and doesn't seem to understand why Batman hesitates before telling him no. When he meets the third Robin in Batman 465 during Tim Drake's first night out, he approaches him as if he's speaking to the previous Robin.

I think elbobbo has the best answer - that it depends upon who's writing the story. Blind Justice (Tec 598-600) pretty blatantly had Gordon approach Bruce Wayne and tell him he knows, but NML as Joriss pointed out seems to contradict that.

[BillCarson]

It's a possibility that his "I'm practically blind without my glasses" was a ruse but it's not like he then tells Batman he's got something stuck in his teeth. If it were a lie, I think the world's greatest detective would've caught on by now in which case, Batman would have no doubt that Gordon knows. Since Batman doesn't seem to be certain one way or the other (or seems to assume Gordon doesn't know) I don't think the Commissioner knew that early on. This does raise an interesting question: if Gordon knows, when did he learn the truth?


I'm not so sure about that. He's looking Bruce right in the eyes when he says it. I'm not sure if it meant that he knew he was Batman but it certainly was meant to be taken more than literally or it wouldn't have been drawn that way.

[hurk]

We might get a firmer answer in Grant Morrison's current run. From an interview with IGN:

IGN Comics: I've had a fun time watching Gordon's reaction to the new duo and seeing him voice suspicions about their possible identities. Are we going to see Gordon continue to wonder just who he's dealing with?

Morrison: Oh yeah. There's a big scene with Gordon in the Bat Bunker coming up soon that addresses just how much Gordon knows or suspects.

I doubt we'll get a clear-cut answer--more likely a "Oh, heck, you're that Nightwing fellow, aren't you" --but we'll see. You can read the article here (http://comics.ign.com/articles/106/1063765p2.html).

[Lorendiac]

Don't forget when Babs confessed he said he already knew but didn't know about her being Oracle. So I think he knows some of it but not all.

That scene in BoP came as a shock to me -- because in my Batman-related comics from the late 70s and early 1980s, it was repeatedly made clear that Commissioner Gordon knew his daughter was Batgirl, and she knew he knew, and so forth! For instance, when she got lured into an ambush and shot in the arm by an assassin working for General Scar, back around 1980, she didn't try to invent some cock-and-bull story for her daddy about how the shooting had happened -- she just told him the real story!

I apparently hadn't noticed that the honesty within the Gordon family on these matters got retconned away into oblivion sometime after COIE, so I was as surprised at Jim Gordon saying, "Yes, I knew you were the original Batgirl" as I would be if, in another story set "here and now, in modern continuity," we suddenly had Alfred Pennyworth saying to Tim Drake, "By the way, I never mentioned it before, but I always knew you were the third Robin! You didn't think you were really fooling me, did you?" :smile:

[dumbstruck]

Gordon wouldn't be much of a detective if he hadn't figured basically figured things out. He maintains deniability to protect Bruce, Barbara, himself, et al.