"Death of Bruce Wayne" question...

[Angelo2113]

I read R.I.P., Last Rites, Final Crisis and Batman and Robin back-to-back recently and wonder something...

Has Grant Morrison ever mentioned that Bruce Wayne was "killed" by Darkseid in any of the books after Final Crisis?

I've read Batman and Robin 1 - 6 and I'm not sure if I've missed something. I know that it's supposed to be implied, but the only time I remember Dick Grayson finding out about this was in Batman #687 when Superman gave Dick the cowl that Bruce was wearing at the end of Final Crisis #6.

[carabas]

I read R.I.P., Last Rites, Final Crisis and Batman and Robin back-to-back recently and wonder something...

Has Grant Morrison ever mentioned that Bruce Wayne was "killed" by Darkseid in any of the books after Final Crisis?

I've read Batman and Robin 1 - 6 and I'm not sure if I've missed something. I know that it's supposed to be implied, but the only time I remember Dick Grayson finding out about this was in Batman #687 when Superman gave Dick the cowl that Bruce was wearing at the end of Final Crisis #6.Nope. Grant Morrison has mentioned several times in interviews that he wasn't going to kill Bruce, long before R.I.P. and Final Crisis came along, but send him on some other kind of time-out.

But Dick Grayson has not read Final Crisis, and does not know any of this. All he has is a Bat-corpse. No reason to believe Bruce is anything else than very dead.

[Angelo2113]

Nope. Grant Morrison has mentioned several times in interviews that he wasn't going to kill Bruce, long before R.I.P. and Final Crisis came along, but send him on some other kind of time-out.

But Dick Grayson has not read Final Crisis, and does not know any of this. All he has is a Bat-corpse. No reason to believe Bruce is anything else than very dead.

I guess I'm just confused where Dick Grayson was during Final Crisis, and how long after Final Crisis does Batman and Robin take place.

[FHIZ]

I guess I'm just confused where Dick Grayson was during Final Crisis, and how long after Final Crisis does Batman and Robin take place.

Its hard to say. I have the personal opinion that at least Blackest Night happens before Batman and Robin. This being that it has been confirmed in Blackest Night: Batman, that the skull Black Hand took was Bruce's, or so says Dick. So in BN:B1 they take the remnants of his corpse back to the Batbunker. In the end of Batman and Robin #6 after Jason Todd yells to dick about the lazurus pits, we see a beat down Dick returning to the bunker and saying "zur en ahhr" which opens up a secret chamber that looks to have Bruce's body in a regeneration chamber or something. So I would have to think, however Blackest Night ends, Dick gets Bruce's skull back and puts it in that chamber with the rest of his body. Then they might try something with the Lazarus pit if we look at the cover of B&R 8. Oh and... Damian isn't deling with being shot in the spine during Blackest Night, so once again that helps my theory that Blackest Night happens before B&R.

So, to answer your question. Blackest Night takes place I believe a few weeks after Final Crisis, and if it is actually just one night like a lot of people think, B&R can't be far behind if my theory is correct.

[JohnShil]

Batman and Robin #7-9 deal with Bruce Wayne's skull, so Blackest Night / BN: Batman would be in and around #1-3, with #4-6 happening afterward, leading into the #7-9 story.

[Angelo2113]

Its hard to say. I have the personal opinion that at least Blackest Night happens before Batman and Robin. This being that it has been confirmed in Blackest Night: Batman, that the skull Black Hand took was Bruce's, or so says Dick. So in BN:B1 they take the remnants of his corpse back to the Batbunker. In the end of Batman and Robin #6 after Jason Todd yells to dick about the lazurus pits, we see a beat down Dick returning to the bunker and saying "zur en ahhr" which opens up a secret chamber that looks to have Bruce's body in a regeneration chamber or something. So I would have to think, however Blackest Night ends, Dick gets Bruce's skull back and puts it in that chamber with the rest of his body. Then they might try something with the Lazarus pit if we look at the cover of B&R 8. Oh and... Damian isn't deling with being shot in the spine during Blackest Night, so once again that helps my theory that Blackest Night happens before B&R.

So, to answer your question. Blackest Night takes place I believe a few weeks after Final Crisis, and if it is actually just one night like a lot of people think, B&R can't be far behind if my theory is correct.

Your theory does seem correct. To me it feels that Batman and Robin 1-3 and 4-6 are back-to-back with not much time spent between them. So that being after Blackest Night does seem correct. What also interests me was Red Robin being under the Anti-Life Equation. Tim became Red Robin after Battle for the Cowl, which questions where that story is in the timeline. It seems like the timeline is kind of messy, which isn't really uncommon.

Mainly, as I'm starting to break this down with the previous Q&A's that has been in this thread, I'm wondering if Dick Grayson ever knew that Bruce came back to get his cowl in Last Rites?

[Angelo2113]

Batman and Robin #7-9 deal with Bruce Wayne's skull, so Blackest Night / BN: Batman would be in and around #1-3, with #4-6 happening afterward, leading into the #7-9 story.

Well I remember Geoff Johns explaining that Dick Grayson takes Bruce's skull from Blackest Night and then that's where we see the body at the end of #6.

[FHIZ]

as for your Red Robin timing, I believe issues 1-4 are before Blackest Night. Maybe 5 too. Because in either 5 or 6, Tim starts talking how he needs to focus after seeing his parents as Black Lanterns in Gotham. So when he did come back to Gotham the first time during Blackest Night, he knew (and had proof) Bruce was alive but didn't say anything.

[Angelo2113]

as for your Red Robin timing, I believe issues 1-4 are before Blackest Night. Maybe 5 too. Because in either 5 or 6, Tim starts talking how he needs to focus after seeing his parents as Black Lanterns in Gotham. So when he did come back to Gotham the first time during Blackest Night, he knew (and had proof) Bruce was alive but didn't say anything.

That's right, I do remember Tim saying, maybe two/three times, about facing his parents back in Gotham. So Red Robin would have started before Batman and Robin, possibly.

Red Robin #4 has Dick and Damian Wayne and the same batmobile from Batman and Robin. So that could imply that the conclusion of Red Robin:The Grail is at the beginning of Batman and Robin series.

[Mr_Wayne]

I wish DC would put "these events take place before/after ____" it sure would help us in keeping up with the events that transpire.

[Angelo2113]

I wish DC would put "these events take place before/after ____" it sure would help us in keeping up with the events that transpire.

100% agreed. Yet, it seems DC is having fun making us put the pieces together in the threads. At least in Green Lantern #48 they said "Takes place before Blackest Night #6"...even though it was supposed to be #5, but that's not the point. At least they tried.

[kevink31593]

Blackest Night takes place I believe a few weeks after Final Crisis, and if it is actually just one night like a lot of people think, B&R can't be far behind if my theory is correct.


Your theory does seem correct. To me it feels that Batman and Robin 1-3 and 4-6 are back-to-back with not much time spent between them. So that being after Blackest Night does seem correct.

Here is an exact quote from Blackest Night #6 (Hal Jordan narration): "When Barry returned a few weeks ago, I started to think death and resurrection were only part of the job." I bolded the part of this quote that applies to the timeline. I guess you could argue that "when Barry returned" could either be referring to Final Crisis or Flash: Rebirth.

Also, we know R.I.P. takes place one week before Final Crisis. Also, the "six months later" scene at the beginning of #676 and at the end of #681 actually happened already in Batman and Robin #3.

So according to this evidence, the timeline is like this:

R.I.P.
Final Crisis (one week after R.I.P)
Battle for the Cowl (after Final Crisis)
Flash: Rebirth (between Final Crisis and Blackest Night)
Blackest Night (a few weeks after Barry returned)
Batman and Robin (six months after R.I.P.)

Another question is when all of the other Bat-books take place in relation to Blackest Night, and also in relation to Batman and Robin. The only thing we know for sure is that the Blackest Night: Batman mini takes place between Red Robin #5 and 6. From Red Robin #6 (Tim Drake narration): "Hard to focus...keep seeing them. My parents, Black Lanterns...nightmares come to life. As tense as things have been between me and Dick, I'm glad he was there. So why didn't I tell him what I found in Iraq? Why didn't I tell him that I have evidence Bruce is alive?"

The rest of the Bat books (Batman, Streets of Gotham, Gotham City Sirens, Detective Comics, Batgirl, Azrael, etc.) could be taking place any time after Battle for the Cowl, before or after Blackest Night, and before Batman and Robin. Based on the above timeline, there does seem to be a pretty big gap between Blackest Night and Batman and Robin.

[MikeCr]

I wish DC would put "these events take place before/after ____" it sure would help us in keeping up with the events that transpire.
...and reward people's pedantry while getting in the way of letting writers tell the stories THEY want to. Leave the chronology stuff to the fans who care about it; as soon as editorial gets involved you end up with nonsense like "spine of the DC Universe" Countdown crap which tends to be more or less unreadable.

[Mr_Wayne]

100% agreed. Yet, it seems DC is having fun making us put the pieces together in the threads. At least in Green Lantern #48 they said "Takes place before Blackest Night #6"...even though it was supposed to be #5, but that's not the point. At least they tried.

Exactly. Like the GL w/ John Stewart didn't have to be read 1st. It would've been nice to have known that it took place before BN#6. No big deal though.




So according to this evidence, the timeline is like this:

R.I.P.
Final Crisis (one week after R.I.P)
Battle for the Cowl (after Final Crisis)
Flash: Rebirth (between Final Crisis and Blackest Night)
Blackest Night (a few weeks after Barry returned)
Batman and Robin (six months after R.I.P.)

From Red Robin #6 (Tim Drake narration): "Hard to focus...keep seeing them. My parents, Black Lanterns...nightmares come to life. As tense as things have been between me and Dick, I'm glad he was there. So why didn't I tell him what I found in Iraq? Why didn't I tell him that I have evidence Bruce is alive?"

Thanks! I appreciate the time-line. I kept that Drake quote because it sums up the absurdity of the entire series for me. Tim just wakes up one day and says "Bruce can't be dead, even though I see a dead body." and goes off in search of him. Dan Didio couldn't find a better reason to put Tim in the Red Robin suit? I've heard of "keeping hope alive" but the premise for the Red Robin series is ridiculous.

Am I missing something here or is there evidence that shows why Tim went out on the initial search for Bruce Wayne? Not the evidence he's found while searching, but what triggered his search besides editorial not knowing what to do w/ him?

[Angelo2113]

Here is an exact quote from Blackest Night #6 (Hal Jordan narration): "When Barry returned a few weeks ago, I started to think death and resurrection were only part of the job." I bolded the part of this quote that applies to the timeline. I guess you could argue that "when Barry returned" could either be referring to Final Crisis or Flash: Rebirth.

Also, we know R.I.P. takes place one week before Final Crisis. Also, the "six months later" scene at the beginning of #676 and at the end of #681 actually happened already in Batman and Robin #3.

So according to this evidence, the timeline is like this:

R.I.P.
Final Crisis (one week after R.I.P)
Battle for the Cowl (after Final Crisis)
Flash: Rebirth (between Final Crisis and Blackest Night)
Blackest Night (a few weeks after Barry returned)
Batman and Robin (six months after R.I.P.)

Another question is when all of the other Bat-books take place in relation to Blackest Night, and also in relation to Batman and Robin. The only thing we know for sure is that the Blackest Night: Batman mini takes place between Red Robin #5 and 6. From Red Robin #6 (Tim Drake narration): "Hard to focus...keep seeing them. My parents, Black Lanterns...nightmares come to life. As tense as things have been between me and Dick, I'm glad he was there. So why didn't I tell him what I found in Iraq? Why didn't I tell him that I have evidence Bruce is alive?"

The rest of the Bat books (Batman, Streets of Gotham, Gotham City Sirens, Detective Comics, Batgirl, Azrael, etc.) could be taking place any time after Battle for the Cowl, before or after Blackest Night, and before Batman and Robin. Based on the above timeline, there does seem to be a pretty big gap between Blackest Night and Batman and Robin.

Amazing, great timeline Batman Fan 31593! I completely forgot about the "six months later" on the first page of R.I.P.

And yes, it seems like Red Robin: The Grail is first after Battle for the Cowl, then it goes into Blackest Night: Batman, then Blackest Night and then finally into Red Robin: Council of Spiders.

[Angelo2113]

Am I missing something here or is there evidence that shows why Tim went out on the initial search for Bruce Wayne? Not the evidence he's found while searching, but what triggered his search besides editorial not knowing what to do w/ him?

There is evidence...

After Battle for the Cowl, Dick decided to make Damian the new Robin so he can help him, and Tim felt insulted and betrayed by this. Although, Dick told Tim that they were more equals rather than one lower than the other. And since Damian is new, he still needs to learn how to become part of the Batman family other than being blood. And I believe Tim punches Damian because he called him "Drake," so Tim punched him stating that his name is "Tim Wayne" and walks out of the Batcave. And that is when he becomes Red Robin.

I'll find the issue for when this happens later today.

[carabas]

Am I missing something here or is there evidence that shows why Tim went out on the initial search for Bruce Wayne? Not the evidence he's found while searching, but what triggered his search besides editorial not knowing what to do w/ him?There is no such evidence. Nothing at all. Not even a shred. He's just plain bonkers when he starts out in Red Robin #1. Completely delusional.

[Angelo2113]

There is no such evidence. Nothing at all. Not even a shred. He's just plain bonkers when he starts out in Red Robin #1. Completely delusional.

My mistake, carabas is correct. I read the quote wrong.

[Sn4tcH]

The only thing we know for sure is that the Blackest Night: Batman mini takes place between Red Robin #5 and 6.

So... why wouldn't Tim take Tam back to Gotham?

[carabas]

My mistake, carabas is correct. I read the quote wrong.Now, what I wonder is if it was the writer's intent to portray him as, to put it mildly, irrational, or if they were just being lazy and hoped nobody would notice that the plot didn't really make sense.

[jackdoe]

Now, what I wonder is if it was the writer's intent to portray him as, to put it mildly, irrational, or if they were just being lazy and hoped nobody would notice that the plot didn't really make sense.

Well, Tim has been known to have extreme trouble letting go (Superboy clone). So that idea is taken to an extreme in Red Robin. Tim has lost his place in a familiar world to a punk kid and in his desperate attempts to reclaim his past life, he holds onto the fool notion that Batman is still alive.

[Mr_Wayne]

There is no such evidence. Nothing at all. Not even a shred. He's just plain bonkers when he starts out in Red Robin #1. Completely delusional.


Now, what I wonder is if it was the writer's intent to portray him as, to put it mildly, irrational, or if they were just being lazy and hoped nobody would notice that the plot didn't really make sense.

I thought so. I started reading Red Robin 1-3 (and thought maybe I missed something) when I realized how ridiculous it seemed for anyone to just assume someone is alive because of a "gut feeling". On top of that, the path that led him to actually finding evidence of Bruce possibly being alive is even more ridiculous. W/ that premise I don't even see why anybody would read the series, no matter how much proof or evidence Drake compiled about Bruce's where abouts. Further more if they did have a reason (like someone contacting Drake and telling him that they knew Bruce is in fact alive, which is still silly) then wouldn't they tell, oh let's say... BATMAN(Grayson) before they talk to a "Robin" of any kind?! :confused: I love both Tim and Cass. DC needs to stop putting them in ridiculous situations. This isn't the 60's or the 80's. Fans aren't as forgiving and naive as they were in those days. :mad:

OK OK... Venting mode: off :cool:


Well, Tim has been known to have extreme trouble letting go (Superboy clone). So that idea is taken to an extreme in Red Robin. Tim has lost his place in a familiar world to a punk kid and in his desperate attempts to reclaim his past life, he holds onto the fool notion that Batman is still alive.

Yeah but that still doesn't explain Tim trekking through different parts of the world in search of evidence that he doesn't even know is out there, and then stumbling upon a cave w/ markings. I hope ur not wasting ur money on this? I'm a firm believer that if you don't pick up $#!+, eventually grass will grow around it and it'll go away. Unless you like the series that is...

[Green-lantern-king]

I think Tim drake is gonna be the first one to prove that Bruce is lost in time. An i dont think hes never gonna stop looking for Bruce.

[stewart48]

There is no such evidence. Nothing at all. Not even a shred. He's just plain bonkers when he starts out in Red Robin #1. Completely delusional.

I think the writer's are going to rectify that in the May issue of Red Robin. I believe the solicits metions find out why Tim thinks Bruce is alive.

[Retro315]

I guess I'm just confused where Dick Grayson was during Final Crisis, and how long after Final Crisis does Batman and Robin take place.

The going response would be "six months". I think somewhere or another something said "Six months later". It's shaky, though, because I believe it's intended to mean there are six months between R.I.P. and Batman Reborn. And so five months into that period, must come Battle for the Cowl. But immediately into the first month came Final Crisis, which itself had a "time/space compression" month tucked into it.

It's also strange to think, because Flash: Rebirth seems to take place only a few weeks after Final Crisis wraps up. And then Blackest Night seems to take place mere weeks after Flash: Rebirth, and by Blackest Night, Dick & Damian are Batman & Robin.

So even stretching breaks in storytelling, my personal thought on the matter is Bruce has been missing for "two or three months".