Silver Age LSH Question

[strathcona]

I consider myself pretty well versed in LSH history. I know all the major (and most of the minor) characters, and all the major (and again, some of the minor) stories that come up along the way. I didn't start reading them until the 5 Year Gap, and have had to fill in my knowledge since then. I have found the Showcase Presents TPBs great for this. I just finished reading vol 3, and I am surprised at how campy and akward the stories still are. By the end of volume 3, we are into book soriginally published in '68, well after Stan and co. rewrote the book on how comic books should read. So, my question is... when do the LSH stories start to get more complex and developed?

I don't want anyone to think I am not pleased with the Silver Age LSH though, I am enjoying these storied for what they are, and for setting up what comes later. I just can't help but wonder when they start to become less campy.

[Peter Svensson]

It starts with Jim Shooter, but doesn't take full effect until the team of Cary Bates and Dave Cockrum start their run in the early 70s.

[Action Ace]

Level 1: up to Adventure #345
Level 2: Shooter/ Swan up to 1970
Level 3: 1970s, new costumes
Level 4: Levitz/ Giffen starts at LSH #287

5 Year Gap is the most complex and developed of any Legion Era. You might find a few parts of level 3 to your liking, but level 4 would be a bare minimum for the complexity you seem to be looking for.

[strathcona]

Cool, so by the next volume of Showcase Presents, or maybe volume 5, we should be getting a higher quality of writing. That's good to hear. I do have to say that Shooter's writing in Volume 5 was not completely simplistic though, there were some very good issues, but then there were others like the Super-Pets one that were just lame.

[Captain Jim]

In general, the quality of writing at DC started changing in the late 1960's, but was more uniform once the 1970's began. And yes, it was due to the influence from Marvel. The reason the writing seems to to improve is that in the 1960's, while Stan Lee was writing material "he'd like to read", which was being picked up by a lot of college students, DC was essentially still writing for children. In a sense, the writing changed because the audience was changing.

[Paul Newell]

I do have to say that Shooter's writing in Volume 5 was not completely simplistic though, there were some very good issues, but then there were others like the Super-Pets one that were just lame.
I'd have to put that down to the editorial influence. Mort Weisinger was very hands on throughout his reign on the Superman titles and he would suggest the general theme of each story, which is why, every few years, you would get something like a Super-Pet story. Sometimes it would lead to something great, such as when he suggested doing a "Dirty Dozen" take, (Which became the first Fatal Five story), other times it would lead to the Legionnaires as infants.
After Mort retired was when the Legion disappeared from the Action Comics back ups and 6 months later, thanks to fan outcry, they reappeared as back ups in Superboy and Cary Bates and Dave Cockrum's stories guaranteed the Legion taking over that title entirely.

[Aaron Kashtan]

It starts with Jim Shooter, but doesn't take full effect until the team of Cary Bates and Dave Cockrum start their run in the early 70s.

I think Shooter's stories were actually more "complex" and "developed" than Bates's stories, at least in terms of characterization.

[Gothos]

I'd have to put that down to the editorial influence. Mort Weisinger was very hands on throughout his reign on the Superman titles and he would suggest the general theme of each story, which is why, every few years, you would get something like a Super-Pet story. Sometimes it would lead to something great, such as when he suggested doing a "Dirty Dozen" take, (Which became the first Fatal Five story), other times it would lead to the Legionnaires as infants.
After Mort retired was when the Legion disappeared from the Action Comics back ups and 6 months later, thanks to fan outcry, they reappeared as back ups in Superboy and Cary Bates and Dave Cockrum's stories guaranteed the Legion taking over that title entirely.

I started to point out that FATAL FIVE (Jan 67) appeared before the film DIRTY DOZEN (Jun 67), but it turns out that the film's based on a '65 book.

Shooter's story might've been prompted by advance buzz about a film version of the book, rather than being indebted to the book directly.

Also, LEGION used to appear in ADVENTURE, not ACTION COMICS.

[Gothos]

I think Shooter's stories were actually more "complex" and "developed" than Bates's stories, at least in terms of characterization.

I agree. In those early days Shooter's strategy was a lot like Stan Lee's, in that he crossbred the old Legion stories with familiar motifs from other genres (the "most dangerous game" manhunt, for example).

The early LEGION stories have their moments, but I'd have to say that they don't succeed overall as well as Uncle Mort's supervision of the Superman mythos.

[Bouncing Boy]

I think Shooter's stories were actually more "complex" and "developed" than Bates's stories, at least in terms of characterization.
Totally agree here. Especially where Bouncing Boy is concerned. Shooter really developed BB as a character, giving him a self-effacing sense of humor, and putting in some really sweet scenes where BB was just starting to woo Duo Damsel. Under Bates, BB suddenly became a bit of a jerk, and at times he didn't treat Duo Damsel well at all.


Also, LEGION used to appear in ADVENTURE, not ACTION COMICS.
Actually, after Supergirl took over ADVENTURE, the Legion became a back up in ACTION COMICS.

[Gothos]

Totally agree here. Especially where Bouncing Boy is concerned. Shooter really developed BB as a character, giving him a self-effacing sense of humor, and putting in some really sweet scenes where BB was just starting to woo Duo Damsel. Under Bates, BB suddenly became a bit of a jerk, and at times he didn't treat Duo Damsel well at all.

Actually, after Supergirl took over ADVENTURE, the Legion became a back up in ACTION COMICS.

You're right; Paul Newell even specified "back ups."