Question: Has it ever been explained why Norman is hijacking hero names?

[The Cool Thatguy]

In series/comic, I mean. Thus far, Norman's gone through rebranding half the MU, getting his 'own' Wolverine, Spider-Man, X-Men, etc.

Has it been explained, in an actual series, why he's doing this? In addition, has it been explained why those 'replaced', are letting him?

[Kieran_Frost]

In series/comic, I mean. Thus far, Norman's gone through rebranding half the MU, getting his 'own' Wolverine, Spider-Man, X-Men, etc.

Has it been explained, in an actual series, why he's doing this? In addition, has it been explained why those 'replaced', are letting him?
He's doing it to give America visions of heroes they understand/aren't afraid of. Basically... it's really good/easy PR.

The others haven't "stopped him" because it's not like that is illegal (how many Hulks do we have?) and currently some of them have STILL not registered; so the are still wanted criminals.
:smile:

[StoneGold]

Also, because he's a jerk!


That, and it gives him more of a sense of legitimacy if Hawkeye is following his orders, as opposed to Bullseye.

[Iron Maiden]

Not really. The only one that seemed to go public and complain about it was Clint. Then Norman did an interview that pretty much called him the nutjob. I don't know why that would stop anyone else. Then again the general public in Marvel seems to have the IQ of Jerry Springer guests.

[Talkie Toaster]

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/8688/osbc.jpg

[The Cool Thatguy]

He's doing it to give America visions of heroes they understand/aren't afraid of. Basically... it's really good/easy PR.

The others haven't "stopped him" because it's not like that is illegal (how many Hulks do we have?) and currently some of them have STILL not registered; so the are still wanted criminals.
:smile:

Except that he's hunting the same names that he's stealing. So how is that good PR?

[CaptainOtter]

Except that he's hunting the same names that he's stealing. So how is that good PR?

The same reason why it's good PR to name his team the Avengers. His team and his heroes are the "real" versions. Everyone else has an illegitimate claim to those titles from this standpoint, and thus no claim to fight crime. They're stealing that credibility and making their opponents look like fakes. It's not that they're hunting down Ms. Marvel the hero. They're hunting down a fake Ms. Marvel by using the "real" one.

[Michael P]

The same reason why it's good PR to name his team the Avengers. His team and his heroes are the "real" versions. Everyone else has an illegitimate claim to those titles from this standpoint, and thus no claim to fight crime. They're stealing that credibility and making their opponents look like fakes. It's not that they're hunting down Ms. Marvel the hero. They're hunting down a fake Ms. Marvel by using the "real" one.

Exactly. He's reframing the argument in terms more favorable to himself. He's a humongous asshole for doing so, but it's the first rule of spin doctoring for a reason.

Also, keep in mind that John Q. Public doesn't know the "real" Hawkeye, Wolverine, etc. from Adam.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Exactly. He's reframing the argument in terms more favorable to himself. He's a humongous asshole for doing so, but it's the first rule of spin doctoring for a reason.

Also, keep in mind that John Q. Public doesn't know the "real" Hawkeye, Wolverine, etc. from Adam.

Hawkeye has a public ID, as does Carol.

And it still doesn't explain why they don't out the villains, even if it wouldn't stop Norman immediately. At least people would be on guard.

[Push You Down]

they tried that. Clint went on national television and outed them... and it failed miserably.
It wasn't written half as well as it could have been but they did it.

[Chachi]

Marvels running out of ideas

[DKR]

He's doing it to give America visions of heroes they understand/aren't afraid of. Basically... it's really good/easy PR.


And that's why the public of the Marvel Universe are idiots. They've abandoned the heroes that saved them multiple times and have now put there trust in villains. I mean, is this the look of a hero to them:
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/455687-venom_swordsman_mike_deodato01_super.jpg

God Siege better make things right again.

[Kieran_Frost]

Hawkeye has a public ID, as does Carol.

And it still doesn't explain why they don't out the villains, even if it wouldn't stop Norman immediately. At least people would be on guard.
Clint did that and it failed. But what would it achieve? The public know it's Norman. Karla and Mac were both public Thunderbolts. Ares and Sentry were both on Tony's team. Noh-var isn't a villain. Daken has never been arrested (far as I know, and either way, his kill count still doesn't come close to Logan's). Really Bullseye is the only "mystery" that could harm their image, and that's assuming most of the public are aware who Bullseye is, what's he's done AND that he isn't turning over a new leaf.

Are you actually asking this question, or just grumbling about the status quo of things? Because Siege #1 is out tomorrow. It's ending soon; so why not just hold it in for three more months, and you'll be done.
:smile:

[SomeBodyAtCBR]

I really want to express my anger at how many of you understand the obvious concept behind Dark Reign, but I'll just bury it deep inside myself and explain it as well as I can.

1) Norman Osborn was put in charge of America's Superhuman division. Whether that division is HAMMER, the Department of Defense, whatever, he's in charge of superhuman activity. He is not the President. He is not the leader of anything higher than HAMMER. He is not the omnipotent King of the Marvel Universe. He is just a public official.

But how could they hire a known serial killer?

Easy skip. First of all consider this. Osborn did his crimes in New York, or rather Goblin did. While a Green Goblin killing people may seem like national news, in the Marvel Universe masked crime happens all the time. By the time he was incarcerated and his identity revealed, the general public OUTSIDE of New York probably didn't care or get the knowledge. Add the fact that he has been declared insane because of the Goblin Serum, then declared sane and treated and also has Starktech on his nuts if he ever does something bad (as far as the gov't knows) it isn't that far of a stretch. In fact, that is why Clint's accusations haven't done much. He has shown no sign of doing any bad under his free will. Only when not medicated, which NO ONE KNOWS he isn't following.

2) How can he use other heroes names?

They are registered trademarks of the government (I assume). When superhumans follow the registration act, I'm guessing the government retains the rights to the names. The name is a title, not the definition of the person who wears it. That's why Osborn can have his Hawkeye and his X-Men and his Avengers. The public also doesn't know who the people are behind the masks for the most part, making it even easier. Long story short, with the Reg. Act, the Goverment owns the names to the superhumans. It only makes sense.


Hawkeye has a public ID, as does Carol.

And it still doesn't explain why they don't out the villains, even if it wouldn't stop Norman immediately. At least people would be on guard.

How would they out the villains? Or isn't that what they've been trying to do this whole time?


Marvels running out of ideas

Are you kidding me? How?

[SomeBodyAtCBR]

And that's why the public of the Marvel Universe are idiots. They've abandoned the heroes that saved them multiple times and have now put there trust in villains. I mean, is this the look of a hero to them:
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/455687-venom_swordsman_mike_deodato01_super.jpg

God Siege better make things right again.

You do know he's on meds that make him Spider-Man sized for public appearances right? I mean, shit, are you just looking for things to complain about? Because if you've spent one issue reading Dark Reign you'd know he's not supposed to step out looking like Venom.

[DKR]

You do know he's on meds that make him Spider-Man sized for public appearances right? I mean, shit, are you just looking for things to complain about? Because if you've spent one issue reading Dark Reign you'd know he's not supposed to step out looking like Venom.

I know that. But it's not like he stays that way all the time. He does Venom-up at sometimes.

Dude, do you have some problem with me? This is the 2nd time you've attacked me for no real reason.:mad:

[The Cool Thatguy]

Clint did that and it failed. But what would it achieve? The public know it's Norman. Karla and Mac were both public Thunderbolts. Ares and Sentry were both on Tony's team. Noh-var isn't a villain. Daken has never been arrested (far as I know, and either way, his kill count still doesn't come close to Logan's). Really Bullseye is the only "mystery" that could harm their image, and that's assuming most of the public are aware who Bullseye is, what's he's done AND that he isn't turning over a new leaf.

Are you actually asking this question, or just grumbling about the status quo of things? Because Siege #1 is out tomorrow. It's ending soon; so why not just hold it in for three more months, and you'll be done.
:smile:

Clint didn't name any names, though. He didn't say 'Norman's Hawkeye is Bullseye, his Spider-Man is really Venom', etc. Instead he made some vague speech about defending America, Norman sucks and left.

Karla was the only public Thunderbolt. As far as the public knew, Venom was a federal cop using the suit. They did *not* know that it was Gargan under there. AS for Bullseye, even when he was on the Thunderbolts, Norman knew the public would never tolerate him, hence he was kept secret.

As for what it would achieve, it'd tip off every reporter in the country, it'd make the public look harder at Norman and generally make it harder for Norman to operate. It's an entirely logical thing to do, yet it's never been addressed.

[SomeBodyAtCBR]

I know that. But it's not like he stays that way all the time. He does Venom-up at sometimes.

Dude, do you have some problem with me? This is the 2nd time you've attacked me for no real reason.:mad:

It's just a coincidence. I don't really pay attention to the names behind the posts. If it happens to be the second time I attacked you I apologize.

It just seems like one of those things that happens when someone doesn't properly research what they're bashing. I think DC is flat-out RETARDED but I haven't been able to keep interest in anything other than Watchmen and Sandman but I don't do go on the DC boards at all and bitch about how awful DC is considering I won't give it a chance. Your statement seemed like that. Like you saw one panel of him Venomed and you just assume it's stupid and thus your post.

There's so many reasons that he Venomizes in the stories, but even if it happens in front of people it's not supposed to mean to. Why do they do it? They need people to fill out the scenes. I'm sure the artists take liberties in drawing Venom because it seems like a fun character to draw, and it also illustrates the point that A) this isn't Peter Parker in his black suit again working for Osborn and B) that a villain is masquerading as a good guy and that's wrong.

You need to think outside of the fallacies within the universe. They don't exist because the writers are lazy. The universe isn't stupid. But by doing something such as what I explained above, you clearly illustrate your plot. If you saw everything the Marvel U did, you wouldn't feel Osborn was doing a bad job. You wouldn't have the inside knowledge that Spider-Man is actually Venom.

Don't feel singled out, it's not you, that's directed in general. You just gave me an opening to say what needed to be said.

[Sighphi]

Yeah i want to know why does he have a Wolverine.
A crazy psycho little animal man that goes on crazy rages and cuts people up.
What idea is he trying to portray with that?

[Sighphi]

You do know he's on meds that make him Spider-Man sized for public appearances right? I mean, shit, are you just looking for things to complain about? Because if you've spent one issue reading Dark Reign you'd know he's not supposed to step out looking like Venom.

He knows that's a horrible story element because the Symbiote can turn into anything normally.

[DKR]

It's just a coincidence. I don't really pay attention to the names behind the posts. If it happens to be the second time I attacked you I apologize.

It just seems like one of those things that happens when someone doesn't properly research what they're bashing. I think DC is flat-out RETARDED but I haven't been able to keep interest in anything other than Watchmen and Sandman but I don't do go on the DC boards at all and bitch about how awful DC is considering I won't give it a chance. Your statement seemed like that. Like you saw one panel of him Venomed and you just assume it's stupid and thus your post.

There's so many reasons that he Venomizes in the stories, but even if it happens in front of people it's not supposed to mean to. Why do they do it? They need people to fill out the scenes. I'm sure the artists take liberties in drawing Venom because it seems like a fun character to draw, and it also illustrates the point that A) this isn't Peter Parker in his black suit again working for Osborn and B) that a villain is masquerading as a good guy and that's wrong.

You need to think outside of the fallacies within the universe. They don't exist because the writers are lazy. The universe isn't stupid. But by doing something such as what I explained above, you clearly illustrate your plot. If you saw everything the Marvel U did, you wouldn't feel Osborn was doing a bad job. You wouldn't have the inside knowledge that Spider-Man is actually Venom.

Don't feel singled out, it's not you, that's directed in general. You just gave me an opening to say what needed to be said.

Well okay then. All is forgiven.

My point though is that the public has placed their trust in villains. I used Venom as an example because when I think of hero, large sharp teeth aren't the first thing to come to mind. Maybe I should've used Osborn as an example, since his past as the Goblin is indeed public knowledge and they still trust him. And I'm not saying the universe is stupid, I mean the idea is interesting, but from a reader standpoint, seeing the public cheer for the villains pretending to be heroes instead of the real ones, it feels wrong.

[matthewaos]

It does not deel at all wrong. How many times have real people cheer on criminals? Maybe not with the definition of a fictional universe, but how many times people have cheered on wars for profi? Really does anyone belive that every war that the US has started, or took part was for the good of the public and not for profit? What I like in DR is that it is a true story set in a fictional world.

[The Black Guardian]

It does not deel at all wrong. How many times have real people cheer on criminals? Maybe not with the definition of a fictional universe, but how many times people have cheered on wars for profi? Really does anyone belive that every war that the US has started, or took part was for the good of the public and not for profit? What I like in DR is that it is a true story set in a fictional world.
I've never, ever seen the masses accept any criminal, let alone cheer them on. Especially a bunch of serial killers (which is what Karla, Mac, Lester, and Norman are).

[infernohara]

The public doesn't know who is behind the masks. Spiderman was recently shown fighting the Ironpatriot in which IP said that Spidey was a vigilante. The public went out of their way to throw stuff and insult Spiderman. He had to change just to escape.

Venom never "bulks up" in public so that image was not needed. Matter of fact hes deemed kinda useless at the moment and is temporarily of his meds.

Norman also had a plan for the initiative to put other villain types as Avengers. I have no doubt that Osborn would have had Thunderball become Cage. I even heard something like Batroc the leaper as Iron fist through some interview.

As to answer the question of the Op: Avengers make the world feel a little safer which is why Norman isn't using the thunderbolts as the names instead. Go with what people are more comfortable with. It also provides the bonus of pissing the real Avengers off. And with Avengers like Sentry and Ares around as backup (since they were true Avengers).....what does the public have to worry about?

[SomeBodyAtCBR]

Well okay then. All is forgiven.

My point though is that the public has placed their trust in villains. I used Venom as an example because when I think of hero, large sharp teeth aren't the first thing to come to mind. Maybe I should've used Osborn as an example, since his past as the Goblin is indeed public knowledge and they still trust him. And I'm not saying the universe is stupid, I mean the idea is interesting, but from a reader standpoint, seeing the public cheer for the villains pretending to be heroes instead of the real ones, it feels wrong.

I think it's supposed to feel wrong. That's my understanding of it. You the reader is supposed to know it's wrong, but for a normal Marvel U citizen it's the right thing to do. I think the magic of using someone like Norman Osborn is that he's done enough industry-wise to play with the high-roller politics and was low-key enough as Green Goblin that many people wouldn't know his past. Plus he's on drugs for it now. I mean, yeah, you have to suspend logic quite a bit for the story to work, but on paper it was awesome. In execution, Bendis fucked up, but that's for another thread.

You also have to remember that Osborn had his chance to redeem himself. He ran the nation-loved Thunderbolts, and even saved the president from the Green Goblin. The insane alter ego he's supposed to be, so maybe he didn't do everything that the Green Goblin did. Maybe someone else did. That's why he's so accepted by the public. It's not like they didn't build this up. In the eye of the public Osborn has been a true and blue patriot since the Civil War.


I've never, ever seen the masses accept any criminal, let alone cheer them on. Especially a bunch of serial killers (which is what Karla, Mac, Lester, and Norman are).

Do you read the comics? Do you know that no one knows who the Avengers identities are? See, DKR, it's posts like these full of such ignorance that make me think that people just post them to start shit, or bitch about something they don't like even though they don't have the research or understanding to back it up.

"I don't like Norman Osborn so I'm going to bitch online about the fallacies of the story that I would understand if I took the time to think about the plot" <-- That's how I see the above post. No offense to the poster.

[Blue Blazes]

I've never, ever seen the masses accept any criminal, let alone cheer them on. Especially a bunch of serial killers (which is what Karla, Mac, Lester, and Norman are).

read the sinister spider-man mini, or the Ms. Marvel title with Karla or any issue which Norman is on TV talking to the public. lots of it there...

[Ryan W]

I just assumed that he was doing it to be a dick.

[CyberCoyote]

read the sinister spider-man mini, or the Ms. Marvel title with Karla or any issue which Norman is on TV talking to the public. lots of it there...

I think he meant in the REAL world. We forget that in the MU the average citizen only has the logic capacity bequeathed upon them by the writer of said comic book. I whole heartedly disagree with the OP who said the world wouldn't be aware of Norman's history as a convicted psychotic murderer. Tiger Woods can't have a girlfriend and some guy in New Jersey can't get away with ripping off old ladies without the media exploiting it all. There's been a TON of evidence compiled against Osborn and his group but the writers just ignore it to keep the story up. The thing that confuses me is WHY they bother writing stories where the evidence is exposed when they are just going to pretend it's not 'out there'. :confused:

As far as using the IDs of the established heroes (or hated folks, why do they cheer Venom Spidey but yell obscene things at Parker Spidey if they think he's the same guy?), they should play that out at the end of this charade as never being able to trust ANYONE as being who they're dressed up to be. But that won't happen because we'd never get a 'heroic' age.

[The Black Guardian]

Do you read the comics? Do you know that no one knows who the Avengers identities are? See, DKR, it's posts like these full of such ignorance that make me think that people just post them to start shit, or bitch about something they don't like even though they don't have the research or understanding to back it up.

"I don't like Norman Osborn so I'm going to bitch online about the fallacies of the story that I would understand if I took the time to think about the plot" <-- That's how I see the above post. No offense to the poster.
Yes, I read the comics. I was talking about the real world, since I was responding to a post that mentioned "real people."

[SomeBodyAtCBR]

I think he meant in the REAL world. We forget that in the MU the average citizen only has the logic capacity bequeathed upon them by the writer of said comic book. I whole heartedly disagree with the OP who said the world wouldn't be aware of Norman's history as a convicted psychotic murderer. Tiger Woods can't have a girlfriend and some guy in New Jersey can't get away with ripping off old ladies without the media exploiting it all. There's been a TON of evidence compiled against Osborn and his group but the writers just ignore it to keep the story up. The thing that confuses me is WHY they bother writing stories where the evidence is exposed when they are just going to pretend it's not 'out there'. :confused:

As far as using the IDs of the established heroes (or hated folks, why do they cheer Venom Spidey but yell obscene things at Parker Spidey if they think he's the same guy?), they should play that out at the end of this charade as never being able to trust ANYONE as being who they're dressed up to be. But that won't happen because we'd never get a 'heroic' age.

There's also tons of evidenced compiled FOR Osborn, but people ignore it. Osborn HAS been in the public eye since he's been rehabilitated. They gave him a chance and he ran with it, got good press and redeemed himself. One main theme in comic books is redemption. While in real life we aren't so much for believing redeemed people, the Marvel U is because they see bad guys switch sides all the time. By your logic, Hawkeye should never have gotten to be an Avenger because the media would have been all over him.

You also have to understand that the media has changed since Osborn was the Goblin. Back then, CNN didn't run stories about celebs. It's not the same thing, but the ubiquity of knowledge wasn't so prevalent as it is now in the Internet age. Since the Internet age, the paparazzi age, the blog age, Osborn has only done good.

It isn't as far out of a stretch as you guys want to make it be. And besides, if we didn't have Osborn in charge now, what would be your suggestion for a storyline? I think it's superlative. It was a great premise that (should have) flipped the universe around. Osborn was so well built up as a messiah for America and I'm so disappointed they dropped the ball and he didn't really do anything with it. They should have furthered his PR image within Dark Avengers, but Bendis decided against it. Missing propaganda and unregistered hero hunting stories from DR is one of the biggest crimes of this event.


Yes, I read the comics. I was talking about the real world, since I was responding to a post that mentioned "real people."

You can't make these kinds of judgments about the real world. Has there ever been a superhuman in the real world? Do we offer redemption in the real world?

Besides, there are plenty of criminals in office. Maybe not so cut and dry as a murderer, but it's not a stretch at all. Watch "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington". That's the earliest example of a corrupt American government I can give you that was published by the mass media. It's not a hip new trend. It's that the Internet has made rebelling a whole lot easier and spread it out a lot further.

You couldn't have used a lesser supervillian though. Not only was Osborn built up for this since Civil War, but it's supposed to drive home the fact that the bad guys are in charge. You can't have a manipulative, shades of grey kind of guy in the role and get the same message across. Yes, Osborn is evil. That's the point. It isn't supposed to be realistic, it's supposed to be obvious.

[Blue Blazes]

Yes, I read the comics. I was talking about the real world, since I was responding to a post that mentioned "real people."

my bad. it has been bouncing back and forth between real and MU, so i misunderstood context.

people have rallied around criminals...Charles Manson, and several other serial killers have there "fans" (deranged, sick fans that write letters and such). Im originally from the Philadelphia area and a big controversy is Mumia Abu-Jamal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumia_Abu-Jamal) who killed a cop, but people feel he was mistreated and doesnt deserve the death penalty and use him as a rally point.

Though honoring or praising criminals is not too common it does happen. Hopefully this is more in context of what you were thinking...

[Mundungus]

Yeah i want to know why does he have a Wolverine.
A crazy psycho little animal man that goes on crazy rages and cuts people up.
What idea is he trying to portray with that?

Wolverine was a member of the Avenger when they were legitimate. Osborn can write it off that Logan signed up with the U.S. government. Also, I imagine that Logan's illegitimate practices (killing, maiming, etc) are not public record and very few people comparatively actually know about them.

In the first arc of Wolverine: Weapon X the reporter woman did not know anything about Wolverine other than he is a member of the X-Men. That tells you something.

It's easier for us to forget that because we have access to a character's entire history the comic book fans within the Marvel Universe know very little.

[Kieran_Frost]

Though honoring or praising criminals is not too common it does happen. Hopefully this is more in context of what you were thinking...

Look at some rappers, and how they glorify guns and degrading women! Look at Paris Hilton or Lindsey Lohan or other sad, drug using, sex-tape making criminals. They get pulled over for drink driving, mowing people down, driving without a licence, avoiding jail, they WENT to jail! They still get attention. They still have fans. Look at celebrities get arrested for drug usage (look at Robert Downey Jr and his CONSTANT drug usage; until recently). And yet people are massive "fans" of these people still. Charlie Sheen has repeated cases of domestic violence (one just at Christmas) but people will still love and watch Two and a Half Men.

Look at Michael Jackson! How many people still loved him after the umpteenth abuse case. Or anyone who is glorified as a suicide bomber? George Michael got caught committing public indecency (which is a crime) and his career kicked started again. Chris Brown hits his girlfriend, sad wannabie celebrities commit sex acts on Big Brother and other ghastly reality shows, Tiger Woods' 10,000 affairs, George Bush Jr was a former alchoholic and drug user. And people elected him President! What about Jordan or Jade Goody? Waste of space talentless people who constantly have fans because every other week they reveal "some dark secret" about their lives; to sad gossip mags, read by even sadder people!

Is it such a stretch to think the Marvel universe would accept Osborn (a reformed criminal - at least to them) as a figure head in the superhero community? Is that really the furthest stretch?

[The Black Guardian]

Look at some rappers, and how they glorify guns and degrading women! Look at Paris Hilton or Lindsey Lohan or other sad, drug using, sex-tape making criminals. They get pulled over for drink driving, mowing people down, driving without a licence, avoiding jail, they WENT to jail! They still get attention. They still have fans. Look at celebrities get arrested for drug usage (look at Robert Downey Jr and his CONSTANT drug usage; until recently). And yet people are massive "fans" of these people still. Charlie Sheen has repeated cases of domestic violence (one just at Christmas) but people will still love and watch Two and a Half Men.

Look at Michael Jackson! How many people still loved him after the umpteenth abuse case. Or anyone who is glorified as a suicide bomber? George Michael got caught committing public indecency (which is a crime) and his career kicked started again. Chris Brown hits his girlfriend, sad wannabie celebrities commit sex acts on Big Brother and other ghastly reality shows, Tiger Woods' 10,000 affairs, George Bush Jr was a former alchoholic and drug user. And people elected him President! What about Jordan or Jade Goody? Waste of space talentless people who constantly have fans because every other week they reveal "some dark secret" about their lives; to sad gossip mags, read by even sadder people!

Is it such a stretch to think the Marvel universe would accept Osborn (a reformed criminal - at least to them) as a figure head in the superhero community? Is that really the furthest stretch?
Rules are very different for celebs, and a lot of what you just wrote barely qualify as crimes (most being misdemeanors that barely get slaps on the wrists), and some flat-out aren't even close to being crimes. The criminals of the Dark Avengers are not celebs, but convicted and notorious mass murderers. It would be a huge stretch for these people to even be allowed to visit the Pentagon much less be where they are.

[SomeBodyAtCBR]

Rules are very different for celebs, and a lot of what you just wrote barely qualify as crimes (most being misdemeanors that barely get slaps on the wrists), and some flat-out aren't even close to being crimes. The criminals of the Dark Avengers are not celebs, but convicted and notorious mass murderers. It would be a huge stretch for these people to even be allowed to visit the Pentagon much less be where they are.

1) It's written a lot more black and white, if in fact it's meant to illustrate parallels to real life. Of course convicted criminals aren't allowed in the Pentagon, but Dick Cheney shot a guy in the face with a shotgun and nothing happened to him! And that was national-freaking-news. When you're writing something in parallel to expose the way something in society works, if that is indeed the case with Dark Reign, you need to make it blatantly obvious so that the reader gets it right away. They aren't supposed to be thinking about why a mass-murderer is in charge. They are supposed to come into the book getting that as a premise of the story and then try to find parallels to real life, if in fact that is the purpose.

2) Again, it needs to be illustrated clearly that the bad guys are in charge. Not every comic reader would be smart enough (or old enough) for them to put a guy who is just evil enough to get into office. It would also greatly affect the premise of the story (which is a great idea in and of itself, even if you feel it's overkill with the underground heroes thing, if they did it in a different time period it still would have been an awesome idea). Also, it would be boring to read a guy who's barely evil be in office. What are his grand schemes? You'd have to build him up over months as getting more and more evil with his power, then have Dark Reign start. Which would be pretty boring and drag on even longer.

3) Once more, the government doesn't know who the criminals are. SHIELD did. And Osborn got in charge of SHIELD's files when he took over, so the government are none the wiser. The ones he took from the government appointed Thunderbolts were already reformed criminals with shock collars. And again, since Civil War, Norman Osborn has been shown to be sane, a good leader, and a patriot. It's not like he went from throwing Gwen Stacy off a bridge to leader of HAMMER the next day.

4) Aren't superhumans celebs in this world? I'm sure the rules are different for them too.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Look at some rappers, and how they glorify guns and degrading women! Look at Paris Hilton or Lindsey Lohan or other sad, drug using, sex-tape making criminals. They get pulled over for drink driving, mowing people down, driving without a licence, avoiding jail, they WENT to jail! They still get attention. They still have fans. Look at celebrities get arrested for drug usage (look at Robert Downey Jr and his CONSTANT drug usage; until recently). And yet people are massive "fans" of these people still. Charlie Sheen has repeated cases of domestic violence (one just at Christmas) but people will still love and watch Two and a Half Men.

Look at Michael Jackson! How many people still loved him after the umpteenth abuse case. Or anyone who is glorified as a suicide bomber? George Michael got caught committing public indecency (which is a crime) and his career kicked started again. Chris Brown hits his girlfriend, sad wannabie celebrities commit sex acts on Big Brother and other ghastly reality shows, Tiger Woods' 10,000 affairs, George Bush Jr was a former alchoholic and drug user. And people elected him President! What about Jordan or Jade Goody? Waste of space talentless people who constantly have fans because every other week they reveal "some dark secret" about their lives; to sad gossip mags, read by even sadder people!

Is it such a stretch to think the Marvel universe would accept Osborn (a reformed criminal - at least to them) as a figure head in the superhero community? Is that really the furthest stretch?

Given that the entire pre-existing superhero community would speak out against him? That they'd forgive murder and general ineffectiveness for the sake of a single lucky shot?

Yeah, pretty much. The entire premise of Dark Reign only works if the heroes act as absolute idiots with no sense of community (ironic, given that Bendis was amongst the first to depict them as an actual community) or intelligence. There really is no good reason why they haven't outted Norman's team to the public, to put them on edge if nothing else.

[Sighphi]

Wolverine was a member of the Avenger when they were legitimate. Osborn can write it off that Logan signed up with the U.S. government. Also, I imagine that Logan's illegitimate practices (killing, maiming, etc) are not public record and very few people comparatively actually know about them.

In the first arc of Wolverine: Weapon X the reporter woman did not know anything about Wolverine other than he is a member of the X-Men. That tells you something.

It's easier for us to forget that because we have access to a character's entire history the comic book fans within the Marvel Universe know very little.

Wolverine gets into bar fights all over the US everyone knows what he does.
And he has been in the Avengers for, like, two minutes, and most of that time the NA were working with a whole mess of other people including the mutants so how do people know he is a full time member?

[Vic Vega]

To date nobody credible to the populace of MU America has denounced this.

Osborne made Clint look like a psycho when he spoke out. The same thing happened to Simon Williams(which I have a harder time buying since he's a higher profile guy than Clint Barton). Based on this, Osborne could have probably spun any public objections from Carol Danvers and Jen Walters the same way.

Steve Rogers was discredited then got dead. Tony Stark was discredited. Thor wasn't giving statements to the public. I'm not sure why Sam Wilson and Hank Pym are keeping quiet.

The real question is why is Reed Richards and the Fantastic Four letting this happen? They have the public cred that Carol Danvers ,Steve Rogers, Tony Stark and Thor all apparantly lack.

[Corey W]

I have absolutely no problem believing that large parts of the public would accept Osborn. As many have pointed out:

1.) Supervillains redeem themselves all the time in the M.U.--particularly on the Avengers (Swordsman, Wonderman, Vision, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Black Widow, Sandman, Namor, Ares).

2.) The public probably does not know most of Norman's bad deeds.

3.) To the extent that they do know Norman's bad deeds, they probably think he was crazy and is now over it.

4.) He was Spider-man's enemy. To Joe Q. Marvel Citizen does that make him a criminal or a hero?

5.) He had the visible support of a popular and newly elected President.

6.) Prior to that, he appeared to have the support of Tony Stark who used him in the Thunderbolts.

7.) The public has seen him on T.V. doing heroic things.

What is not to buy? They don't know that some of the other DAs are fakes. Sentry and Ares look real enough and the others wear masks.

And we live in a world that supports criminals all the time. The number of politicians elected AFTER they are publicly outed as criminals is sometimes staggering. Maybe they are not super-villains, but we don't have any super-villains.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I have absolutely no problem believing that large parts of the public would accept Osborn. As many have pointed out:

1.) Supervillains redeem themselves all the time in the M.U.--particularly on the Avengers (Swordsman, Wonderman, Vision, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Black Widow, Sandman, Namor, Ares).

2.) The public probably does not know most of Norman's bad deeds.

3.) To the extent that they do know Norman's bad deeds, they probably think he was crazy and is now over it.

4.) He was Spider-man's enemy. To Joe Q. Marvel Citizen does that make him a criminal or a hero?

5.) He had the visible support of a popular and newly elected President.

6.) Prior to that, he appeared to have the support of Tony Stark who used him in the Thunderbolts.

7.) The public has seen him on T.V. doing heroic things.

What is not to buy? They don't know that some of the other DAs are fakes. Sentry and Ares look real enough and the others wear masks.

And we live in a world that supports criminals all the time. The number of politicians elected AFTER they are publicly outed as criminals is sometimes staggering. Maybe they are not super-villains, but we don't have any super-villains.

Actually, they do know about most of his crimes. He went bat shit crazy right outside of a packed court house, where he was being charged for the murders of various employees and for the death of a Daily Bugle employee. JJJ then promised expose after expose on Norman.

Norman could, in theory, still get away with it, were it not for the fact that *every* single hero would speak out against him, and out his Avengers team for the criminals they know them to be. I find it hard to believe that Wonder Man and Clint are the only ones who'd stand up to him publically.

[Zembo]

Actually, they do know about most of his crimes. He went bat shit crazy right outside of a packed court house, where he was being charged for the murders of various employees and for the death of a Daily Bugle employee. JJJ then promised expose after expose on Norman.

Norman could, in theory, still get away with it, were it not for the fact that *every* single hero would speak out against him, and out his Avengers team for the criminals they know them to be. I find it hard to believe that Wonder Man and Clint are the only ones who'd stand up to him publically.

Most of them are on the run from Norman. Hard to arrange a telecast if you're hiding out. Not to mention Norman has a lot better PR than they do. The Skrull Queen was an Avenger on Tony Stark's watch? The Raft got zapped and gangs of bad guys are wrecking NYC? Villains are everywhere? Who you gonna call-vigilanties who are on the run? Or the Avengers, who WILL show up and stop them (if more violently than in the past).

And five seconds after you give that telecast, for which you have no evidence, here comes the Sentry. And the American people love a good "redemption" story. Look at the Bakers. Why does any cheating politician give a "I have hurt my family" speech?

That's the point-nobody knows that the guys with Norman aren't the real ones. Some guy in a mask saying he's Hawkeye won't convince anyone. Proof is needed, and Norman is very persuasive.

[SomeBodyAtCBR]

Most of them are on the run from Norman. Hard to arrange a telecast if you're hiding out. Not to mention Norman has a lot better PR than they do. The Skrull Queen was an Avenger on Tony Stark's watch? The Raft got zapped and gangs of bad guys are wrecking NYC? Villains are everywhere? Who you gonna call-vigilanties who are on the run? Or the Avengers, who WILL show up and stop them (if more violently than in the past).

And five seconds after you give that telecast, for which you have no evidence, here comes the Sentry. And the American people love a good "redemption" story. Look at the Bakers. Why does any cheating politician give a "I have hurt my family" speech?

That's the point-nobody knows that the guys with Norman aren't the real ones. Some guy in a mask saying he's Hawkeye won't convince anyone. Proof is needed, and Norman is very persuasive.

Well said, but you're going to get backlash because Clint was public with his ID. The retort: Norman has his own Hawkeye. A registered Hawkeye. There's no legal rights to superhero names that we know of, and I think Matt is a bit too busy to serve a copyright infringement case against the United States for using the Hawkeye name, if in fact, Clint trademarked it.

Like I said before, it probably became property of the government with the Avengers franchise, so they are free to use them. Also, it's a fucking comic book, and it's cool as hell to see these bad-guys try to play their good counterparts. How can you not like the idea? I think it's the best idea since Civil War. I just wish they had a direct Dark Reign series, or Dark Avengers didn't suck so hard and was closer to an event then just a change.

How can I collect Dark Reign's epicenter? There really was none aside from Dark Avengers, which doesn't even scratch the surface of the event. Most of the cool, fun stuff to explore was left off-panel, which isn't fair. Maybe they'll go back and do more with it, but man what a let down considering the premise was so bad-ass.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Most of them are on the run from Norman. Hard to arrange a telecast if you're hiding out. Not to mention Norman has a lot better PR than they do. The Skrull Queen was an Avenger on Tony Stark's watch? The Raft got zapped and gangs of bad guys are wrecking NYC? Villains are everywhere? Who you gonna call-vigilanties who are on the run? Or the Avengers, who WILL show up and stop them (if more violently than in the past).

And five seconds after you give that telecast, for which you have no evidence, here comes the Sentry. And the American people love a good "redemption" story. Look at the Bakers. Why does any cheating politician give a "I have hurt my family" speech?

That's the point-nobody knows that the guys with Norman aren't the real ones. Some guy in a mask saying he's Hawkeye won't convince anyone. Proof is needed, and Norman is very persuasive.

Hard to do a telecast? Freakin' Bin Laden can do one in Afganistan while half the United States army is in his backyard! Any one of the Avengers tech guys should be able to jimmy up an untraceable signal.

This love of a good redemption story doesn't exactly fly, when most politicians usually resign after being outted, and none stand accused of throwing high explosives into a crowd. And if *everyone* from both parties denounced a politician, do you really think he'd be forgiven so easily?

[SomeBodyAtCBR]

Hard to do a telecast? Freakin' Bin Laden can do one in Afganistan while half the United States army is in his backyard! Any one of the Avengers tech guys should be able to jimmy up an untraceable signal.

This love of a good redemption story doesn't exactly fly, when most politicians usually resign after being outted, and none stand accused of throwing high explosives into a crowd. And if *everyone* from both parties denounced a politician, do you really think he'd be forgiven so easily?


It's written a lot more black and white, if in fact it's meant to illustrate parallels to real life. ... When you're writing something in parallel to expose the way something in society works, if that is indeed the case with Dark Reign, you need to make it blatantly obvious so that the reader gets it right away. ... They are supposed to come into the book getting that as a premise of the story and then try to find parallels to real life, if in fact that is the purpose.

It's written that way so that it's OBVIOUS to see that there is corruption in our government and that something like an evil person can rise to power with our political system. It's supposed to make you think and re-evaluate American politics. It's not supposed to make you obsess over why they chose Norman Osborn.

Once and for all, they needed someone who is clearly, visibly evil from the first 3 words you use to describe the guy, or else the focus gets shifted from how he effects the Marvel Universe into a story about how he got to where he was. I believe that Marvel decided that the story of Norman Osborn and the bad-guys being the good guys and flipping the Marvel Universe upside-down would be a much better story than a corrupt politick making his way into a high position of power.

[The Cool Thatguy]

It's written that way so that it's OBVIOUS to see that there is corruption in our government and that something like an evil person can rise to power with our political system. It's supposed to make you think and re-evaluate American politics. It's not supposed to make you obsess over why they chose Norman Osborn.

Once and for all, they needed someone who is clearly, visibly evil from the first 3 words you use to describe the guy, or else the focus gets shifted from how he effects the Marvel Universe into a story about how he got to where he was. I believe that Marvel decided that the story of Norman Osborn and the bad-guys being the good guys and flipping the Marvel Universe upside-down would be a much better story than a corrupt politick making his way into a high position of power.

That hardly works when you break credability coming outta the gate, and start your war on terror metaphors at least three years too late.

Bush bashing and 'villains have won!' don't work side by side. It's one or the other, not both.

[desanth]

It probably should have been written that lots of the heroes don't know that Osborn is a bad guy. After-all, they only have Spiderman's word on it and Spidey magicked away his identity, something I'm still not completely sure on if people know that his identity secretly vanished or not.
Basically you have 3 or 4 teams(NA,MA,A:TI, XMEN) that know Osborn is bad and NA and Initiative Avengers are the only ones proactively fighting against him. The rest just think he's a sneaky slimy guy, but thats no reason for a hero to bash a leader of a SHIELD-esque organization and yet another variation of Avengers. Plus Nick Fury was not a cuddly guy, but he did what he thought was in the best interest of the world, even though it was sometimes in the heroes dis-favour. Even Stark with the SHRA when he was running SHIELD had half the heroes pissed off at him.
So even if heroes talked bad of Osborn, they probably did the same about Stark when SHRA came about. I don't blame the public for supporting Osborn who with a single action stopped the corrupt alien invasion that snuck in during the Nick Fury era and unfolded during the Stark era.

[SomeBodyAtCBR]

That hardly works when you break credability coming outta the gate, and start your war on terror metaphors at least three years too late.

Bush bashing and 'villains have won!' don't work side by side. It's one or the other, not both.

Mr. Smith Goes to Washington. It's not a new premise to think that you're government is seedy. And we're not even sure that's the intention of this story. But I can justify it anyway it can be spun.

If you don't like it that's fine. But these arguments are getting to the point where I can keep quoting myself to all of your new posts. It's just getting tired, and I keep coming back with the same points that you gloss over. I think there was enough discussion here to explain everything that was mentioned.

[Kasper Cole]

To date nobody credible to the populace of MU America has denounced this.

Osborne made Clint look like a psycho when he spoke out. The same thing happened to Simon Williams(which I have a harder time buying since he's a higher profile guy than Clint Barton). Based on this, Osborne could have probably spun any public objections from Carol Danvers and Jen Walters the same way.

Steve Rogers was discredited then got dead. Tony Stark was discredited. Thor wasn't giving statements to the public. I'm not sure why Sam Wilson and Hank Pym are keeping quiet.

The real question is why is Reed Richards and the Fantastic Four letting this happen? They have the public cred that Carol Danvers ,Steve Rogers, Tony Stark and Thor all apparantly lack.

Sam Wilson would easily be discredited as a former pimp.

Hank Pym has so many skeletons in his closet it's not even funny, plus there's the whole thing of the skrull that was impersonating him.

As for the Fantastic Four, they simply don't give a damn about anybody but themeselves. They're the ultimate fair weather friends of the Marvel universe.

[SomeBodyAtCBR]

Hank did do something against him. He created his Avengers, the worldwide known Avengers, to one up Norman.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Mr. Smith Goes to Washington. It's not a new premise to think that you're government is seedy. And we're not even sure that's the intention of this story. But I can justify it anyway it can be spun.

If you don't like it that's fine. But these arguments are getting to the point where I can keep quoting myself to all of your new posts. It's just getting tired, and I keep coming back with the same points that you gloss over. I think there was enough discussion here to explain everything that was mentioned.

Uhh, Mr. Smith had no sociopaths as their main character and frankly, I don't recall argueing the premise of a corrupt government is unrealistic/wrong/shouldn't be done. As it stands, you're the one glossing over my points, which pertain to execution.

A single sniper shot, which contributed nothing to the overall battle, isn't to win the United States and all it's law enforcement branches over. There's no good reason why real heroes haven't outted his Avengers, or stood together to denounce him.

Bendis took short cuts to the stories he wanted to tell, and it shows.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Sam Wilson would easily be discredited as a former pimp.
Hank Pym has so many skeletons in his closet it's not even funny, plus there's the whole thing of the skrull that was impersonating him.

As for the Fantastic Four, they simply don't give a damn about anybody but themeselves. They're the ultimate fair weather friends of the Marvel universe.

Former pimp, long time hero and social worker vs. long time villain, wacko and short time hero.

Hard public relations battle, that :wink:

[Kasper Cole]

Former pimp, long time hero and social worker vs. long time villain, wacko and short time hero.

Hard public relations battle, that :wink:

Yeah, it is considering the resources Osborn has at his finger tips.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Yeah, it is considering the resources Osborn has at his finger tips.

And since when did the FF go broke?

PR battles aren't about who has the most money, especially in this day and age. There are dozens of ways to reach people nationally. If kids in Iran can get around censors, I'm sure heroes can find a way to be heard.

[Kasper Cole]

And since when did the FF go broke?

PR battles aren't about who has the most money, especially in this day and age. There are dozens of ways to reach people nationally. If kids in Iran can get around censors, I'm sure heroes can find a way to be heard.

When have the Fantastic Four consistently given a damn about anybody but themselves during times like this? They know Spidey and the X-Men are heroes but you don't see them breaking their necks to help their public images.

Also by resources I didn't mean just money, but his government and H.A.M.M.E.R. resources. It's not as if Osbron just shot the Skrull Queen did a T.V. appearance then became the nations Top cop. Osbron has been killing people off, doctoring video footage, buying people off, and setting people up. During his sitdown with the President he managed to clear himself of ever becoming the green goblin again, gain more trust from the Pres, and discredit Doc Samson.

[Aziz Abbasi]

To piss the real heroes up
And to look legitimate

Case Closed

[SomeBodyAtCBR]

Uhh, Mr. Smith had no sociopaths as their main character and frankly, I don't recall argueing the premise of a corrupt government is unrealistic/wrong/shouldn't be done. As it stands, you're the one glossing over my points, which pertain to execution.

A single sniper shot, which contributed nothing to the overall battle, isn't to win the United States and all it's law enforcement branches over. There's no good reason why real heroes haven't outted his Avengers, or stood together to denounce him.

Bendis took short cuts to the stories he wanted to tell, and it shows.

You said: That hardly works when you break credability coming outta the gate, and start your war on terror metaphors at least three years too late.

I don't see this is a war on terror metaphor. It's a metaphor to a corrupt government, if anything. It's probably just a cool ass premise for a comic book.

You keep glossing over the fact that the reason that a sociopath is in this position is so that they can cut the bullshit that would need to be built up to put him into the position he was in the beginning of Dark Reign. If he wasn't a sociopath, he wouldn't have hired villains. He would slowly manipulate the good guys into doing bad things, and it doesn't sound half as interesting as the Universe getting turned upside-down, and was probably done ad-infinum.

There's no defending Osborn as a killer. BUT THAT'S THE POINT! That's what makes you look at this situation and say "man, that's fucked up". It's what's supposed to draw you in. Osborn is the new political media darling. In this CURRENT (post-Goblin) age of all news reports being more akin to TMZ than news, Osborn is their pariah. Also, read Siege: Embedded #1. It puts an excellent spin as to why people cheer for Osborn. Although I'm sure that you'd just rather dismiss it as a FOX News parody.

And I hate Bendis as a writer. I think he's weak, and that he has too much pride to have a co-writer, and it really affects the 234567 titles he's on a month. But it wasn't him who made Osborn into a political media darling. After Civil War, in which THE GOOD GUYS killed innocents, he came out patriotic in Ellis's (I believe) Thunderbolts and got amazing press there. I keep remembering the "commercial" that plays in one of the issues with the Thunderbolt toys capturing the Captain America.

[daviddonne]

In series/comic, I mean. Thus far, Norman's gone through rebranding half the MU, getting his 'own' Wolverine, Spider-Man, X-Men, etc.

Has it been explained, in an actual series, why he's doing this? In addition, has it been explained why those 'replaced', are letting him?

Stupid question, I'm sorry. Apart from being completely obvious, it has been explicitly explained in all of these stories. Have you actually read any books under Dark Reign? Work these things out for yourself.