Two events. BN and WoNK, did DC get it backwards?

[edublz14]

It just occurred to me, I really think DC got it backwards on It's current two events, i think that the WoNK event should be the all encompassing DCU tie in event and that Blackest Night should be the more self contained (to parent title) story. blacket night seems like such a tighter story to me without all the DCU stuff being added on but i think the opposite is true with WoNK it seems that it's luster is fading abit with the editorial omission of the event taking place throughout the greater Universe.

Don't get me wrong, I have been thoroughly enjoying both series it's just a feeling thats been stuck in the back of my mind, that although great stories so far, it just seemed more natural the other way

[K-DoG7p7]

WoNK is building up to next years event ..

War of the Supermen!

#0 is coming out on Free Comicbook day

[The Cool Thatguy]

Why? Blackest Night enables every series that wants to be involved to join in. Emotional connections to a dead character is all one needs. And hell, virtually every book worth it's salt has that even before DC went kill crazy.

With War of the Supermen, you need either 1) A connection to Superman or 2) the ability to combat Superman level characters. Both are rather limited.

[hippie_hunter]

Why? Blackest Night enables every series that wants to be involved to join in. Emotional connections to a dead character is all one needs. And hell, virtually every book worth it's salt has that even before DC went kill crazy.

With War of the Supermen, you need either 1) A connection to Superman or 2) the ability to combat Superman level characters. Both are rather limited.

I dunno, I think New Krypton at war with Earth would require most of DC's superheroes to hold them at bay since they all have the powers of Superman.

[WorstThingUS]

Why? Blackest Night enables every series that wants to be involved to join in. Emotional connections to a dead character is all one needs. And hell, virtually every book worth it's salt has that even before DC went kill crazy.

With War of the Supermen, you need either 1) A connection to Superman or 2) the ability to combat Superman level characters. Both are rather limited.

QFT. Amen and whatever to meet the necessary length.

[Will.S]

I dunno, I think New Krypton at war with Earth would require most of DC's superheroes to hold them at bay since they all have the powers of Superman.
Well the thing is that after seeing how huge of a threat the Black Lanterns are throughout the Blackest Night mini series and all the tie ins, a bunch of Supermen will feel like a step down in threat level in some ways.

[d newton]

Well, the thing is that after seeing how huge of a threat the Black Lanterns are throughout the Blackest Night mini series and all the tie ins, a bunch of Supermen will feel like a step down in threat level.
How is a group of zombies which can rip your hearts out a bigger threat than
100, 000 people with heat vision and other powers?

[Will.S]

How is a group of zombies which can rip your hearts out a bigger threat than
100, 000 people with heat vision and other powers?
Black Lanterns can't really be beaten (even by Kryptonians) unless it was via a plot device or a mix of lantern rings. In fact they galvanized both hero and villains alike.

[Super Buddies Forever]

Yeah, you'd think a planet on the opposite side of the sun populated by thousands of Supermen would have a bit more of an impact on the DCU. Then again, you'd think the same thing about Darkseid essentially ruining the Earth and forcing humanity to live a hellish existence for a month, and yet that barely gets mentioned.

[Doc Goblin]

I have trouble seeing how Blackest Night really could be self-contained. It's very premise is pretty damn all-encompassing. The dead rise. How uninteresting would it be for the Black Lantern Corps to be made up of just the countless dead background Green Lanterns? Half the fun is seeing all the dead heroes and villains from the DCU rise.

War of the Supermen... I can see that being relatively self-contained, even with a lot of details still unclear. Unlike dead loved ones coming back to harvest your heart, I don't see any inherent reason a lot of DC heroes would be involved. They could be involved, but they don't really need to be. It'd make sense for the Justice League to be though. But it would take some creative contriving to give the Batman family a reason to be in the fight. Same with the Flash family and others.

Not that it wouldn't be cool to see various heroes and teams taking down Kryptonians in interesting ways.

[d newton]

Black Lanterns can't really be beaten.
Try telling that to heroes who can use light as weapons.

[Will.S]

Try telling that to heroes who can use light as weapons.
Yeah I think I mentioned that :wink:

[Forseti]

Since I don't read Superman but do read the GL books, I'm fine with how these things are run. :tongue:

[superchick]

I hope the WOTS is more focused on the super-characters. I know if I were a green lantern fan I'd be so annoyed that Barry, Mera and Ray are getting more of a spotlight than Guy, Alan, Kyle and John.

[d newton]

Yeah, I think I mentioned that.
Where? All I read was:

Well, the thing is that after seeing how huge of a threat the Black Lanterns are throughout the Blackest Night mini series and all the tie ins, a bunch of Supermen will feel like a step down in threat level in power.
&

Black Lanterns can't really be beaten (even by Kryptonians) unless it was via a plot device or a mix of lantern rings. In fact they galvanized both hero and villain.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I dunno, I think New Krypton at war with Earth would require most of DC's superheroes to hold them at bay since they all have the powers of Superman.

Most would be slaughtered or beaten within a matter of minutes. A splash page or two is all they could contribute to the story.

In contrast, the zombies are easily a greater threat because they won't stop, they continue to grow in size and are easier to write because while stopping them is extremely difficult, they can be fought without major issue.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Where? All I read was:

&

Black Lanterns can't really be beaten (even by Kryptonians) unless it was via a plot device or a mix of lantern rings. In fact they galvanized both hero and villain.

You really should pay better attention in discussions, hmm?

[IvCNuB4]

How is a group of zombies which can rip your hearts out a bigger threat than
100, 000 people with heat vision and other powers?

Apparently you didn't read "Blackest Night: Superman". New Krypton was forced to seal itself off inside a force-field because they realized that they couldn't defeat the BLs.

[Will.S]

Black Lanterns can't really be beaten (even by Kryptonians) unless it was via a plot device or a mix of lantern rings. In fact they galvanized both hero and villain.

You really should pay better attention in discussions, hmm?
Thank you sir.

[Uxas]

Not everything is as simple as X>Y>Z. 100,000 kryptonians wouldn't be able to kill 10 BL's, but that doesn't mean that 10 BL's would be more of a threat to the JLA than 100,000 kryptonians.

If the JSA, JLA and Titans got together, they'd hold off the BL's for far longer then they would hold an army of Superman-level beings.

[Will.S]

Not everything is as simple as X>Y>Z. 100,000 kryptonians wouldn't be able to kill 10 BL's, but that doesn't mean that 10 BL's would be more of a threat to the JLA than 100,000 kryptonians.

If the JSA, JLA and Totans got together, they'd hold off the BL's for far longer then they would hold an army of Superman-level beings.
Kryptonians are still a big threat, no doubt.

In fact I think their deadliest power is their super speed, but generally Green Lanterns tend to operate on a higher and more cosmic level (higher than Kryptonians) which is why they had to boost the Black Lanterns threat level so high. That's why I say that in comparison to Nekron and the Black Lanterns the Kyptonians will feel like a step down in threat level/epic scope but I'm not saying that the Kryptonians are nothing to sneeze at either.

[Sean Walsh]

How is a group of zombies which can rip your hearts out a bigger threat than
100, 000 people with heat vision and other powers?

Which sounds worse: 100K grumpy Superpeople who punch and yell and can be killed (Death of Superman, anyone?), or undead super zombies powered by an evil being with energy connections to the Anti-Monitor and the very universe itself? :wink:

[The Cool Thatguy]

Not everything is as simple as X>Y>Z. 100,000 kryptonians wouldn't be able to kill 10 BL's, but that doesn't mean that 10 BL's would be more of a threat to the JLA than 100,000 kryptonians.

If the JSA, JLA and Titans got together, they'd hold off the BL's for far longer then they would hold an army of Superman-level beings.

Hold off? Sure. Stop? Much less likely...

The threat of the Black Lanterns has many layers

1) Sheer numbers: They number in the billions, and for earth heroes there have got to be dozens.

2) Relentless: Tear them apart, and they just reform, and keep coming. Oh, and if they used powers or weapons in a previous life, they have them now.

3) Emotional connection: Who wants to fight dead friends? Who wants the memories of their loved ones tarnished in such a horrible way?

Fighting a bunch of Supermen just doesn't have the same potential.

[Uxas]

Fighting a bunch of Supermen just doesn't have the same potential.

Not to argue your point or anything, but in terms of power, Superman is the guy everyone's compared to.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Not to argue your point or anything, but in terms of power, Superman is the guy everyone's compared to.

Different potential :wink:

Supermen don't serve as a foil half as well as undead zombies with personality duplicates. Undead zombies are also easier for writers to manage in combat as well as easier to bring down with some creativity.

[Sean Walsh]

Not to argue your point or anything, but in terms of power, Superman is the guy everyone's compared to.

Thing is, these are Kryptonians........not Supermen.

Kal-El has more experience with his powers than pretty much every single Kryptonian alive currently. Sure, leading them is probably helping them a bit, but if it comes to war with Earth, you think the most powerful (basically) of them will let the Earth be harmed by newbs?

If he's on their side, though.....yeah, Earth is boned.

[titanfan]

Really, the right answer is "what will sales support?" If you can get an overall sales bump out of both of them, then make 'em both universe-wide.

[Will.S]

Well I just hope they get a really good creative team on the main mini series.

If it's mainly Robinson and some other non-exciting artist along with bland coloring then that'll really kill it. Although I wouldn't mind if the Robinson/Rucka/Pete Woods WoNK team was the creative team with Dave McCaig or Brad Anderson's colors.

[the4thpip]

WoNK is building up to next years event ..

War of the Supermen!

#0 is coming out on Free Comicbook day

That's like, what, a two year buildup to an 8 month event?

[d newton]

Black Lanterns can't really be beaten (even by Kryptonians) unless it was via a plot device or a mix of lantern rings. In fact they galvanized both hero and villain.
*rolleyes* How does a group of people using light powers to defeat zombies = plot device?

[Will.S]

*rolleyes* How does a group of people using light powers to defeat zombies = plot device?
I'm not talking about the Green Lanterns specifically, I'm talking about stuff like the Superman Blackest Night book where they needed Psycho Pirate's mask to defeat the Black Lanterns and to a lessor extent Dove during the Blackest Night Titans mini series when she saved their fats.

[d newton]

That's your defintion of 'plot device'? Really?

[KevinTBrown]

That's like, what, a two year buildup to an 8 month event?

You assume it'll come out on time..... While to date Blackest Night has been on time, BN is the "exception to the rule" unfortunately.


But DC has also been building a LOT of things for years with very little pay off. BN is the only one that has come close to a pay off.

[noh-varr]

I'd rather have them both be self contained personally. But I just don't think a crossover event has ever helped or made for a solid story. Sometimes the main event has been decent or good, and sometimes the normal issues that get forcefully interrupted for the event have been decent or good, but it never really matters. It's just a ploy to make more money. I'd appreciate only having to buy one book for a big story. Have all of Blackest Night happen in the mini series, it can involve more then just the Green Lanterns if it has to, fine. But it would be a stronger story if told in one central place. And then when it was over you could see effects of the story if they actually altered the titles. And if some creators heard about the event and had a good idea then they could supplement it with stuff from their book, but blanket forced crossover titles are just irritating to me. I don't need to see every DC hero fight an undead former friend/lover/ally/enemy, have an emotional reaction for a page or two, overcome it, and then spend the rest of the story trying to kill it somehow. It's been the SAME story in nearly every cross over issue for Blackest Night and it's BORING! What's worse is the main story forces you to read Green Lantern to understand aspects of the story and other crossovers for little bits and pieces. It's bad storytelling imo. And it's not just Blackest Night (I'd be happy if it were just this crossover) it's ever last damn crossover we get. I really wait for the day where the majority of comic fans stop reading these damn things, and demand for stories to be good and in a single book. But as that will never happen, guess I will just keep waiting.

[Uxas]

It's too much to ask for I guess, but I'd like it if the Big 2 would approach events as stories first, money making machines later. I'd be all up for continuity changing events, even quite drastic ones, and I like the very idea of an event, but it's pretty sad how so many events aren't anything special. I know I'll get flak for this, but Final Crisis was the only events IMO that's even come close to a proper story.

As for tie-ins, I find it kind of funny how people made fun of FC's approach to them and how there weren't enough tie-ins or something and now Blackest Night is accused of being bloated. Never happy, eh? Imo, FC: Revelations was an example of a great tie-in; it tied into the main series in setting and style, but the story was separate.

[Shellhead]

I don't need to see every DC hero fight an undead former friend/lover/ally/enemy, have an emotional reaction for a page or two, overcome it, and then spend the rest of the story trying to kill it somehow. It's been the SAME story in nearly every cross over issue for Blackest Night and it's BORING!

In JSA: Blackest Night, this happened on nearly every single page, sometimes more than once per page. There was almost zero story. I was bored after the first few pages. The only (and very limited) entertainment value came from studying the modified costumes of the undead heroes.

[Jolly Mon]

It's too much to ask for I guess, but I'd like it if the Big 2 would approach events as stories first, money making machines later. I'd be all up for continuity changing events, even quite drastic ones, and I like the very idea of an event, but it's pretty sad how so many events aren't anything special. I know I'll get flak for this, but Final Crisis was the only events IMO that's even come close to a proper story.

As for tie-ins, I find it kind of funny how people made fun of FC's approach to them and how there weren't enough tie-ins or something and now Blackest Night is accused of being bloated. Never happy, eh? Imo, FC: Revelations was an example of a great tie-in; it tied into the main series in setting and style, but the story was separate.

My New Year's resolution is to no longer argue with people who continue to sing the praises of Final Crisis. My hope is that they will do the same and stop bringing it up in unrelated threads.

[Uxas]

My New Year's resolution is to no longer argue with people who continue to sing the praises of Final Crisis. My hope is that they will do the same and stop bringing it up in unrelated threads.
I was actually responding to noh-varrs post about how events are never self-contained and how you're required to read various tie-ins to understand the story and how events exist to 'change everything forever'. If you'd read his post you would've understood why I broght this up. FC really only had 2 tie-in issues that needed to be read in order to understand the main plot and thus was exceptionally self-contained in event standards. The amount of tie-in issues in general was considerably smaller when compared to most major events. Also, while IC, for example, was about bringing the multiverse back first and foremost, FC, IMO, was a story before anything else. While I do enjoy BN, the amount of tie-ins is just ridiculous. Good thing that the most important ones happen to be GL and GLC, both of which I was reading before BN started anyway,

I'd rather have the upcoming War of the Supermen and other events follow FC's than BN's style in how it affects other titles. etc. If that somehow upsets you, well, that's your problem.

[Thok]

I really wait for the day where the majority of comic fans stop reading these damn things, and demand for stories to be good and in a single book. But as that will never happen, guess I will just keep waiting.

Have you ever had the experience of going to wikipedia or tvtropes, starting at one page and just randomly following the influx of information and jumping from one page to another via hyperlink, sometimes backtracking, sometimes looking at outside references for comparison?

A comic book crossover is one of the few forms of entertainment that can really follow that model. There are obviously less connections and less backtracking, and doing the equivalent of clicking on a hyperlink costs 2.99-3.99 the first time you do it, but it's something of a unique entertainment experience.

[Jolly Mon]

I was actually responding to noh-varrs post about how events are never self-contained and how you're required to read various tie-ins to understand the story and how events exist to 'change everything forever'. If you'd read his post you would've understood why I broght this up. FC really only had 2 tie-in issues that needed to be read in order to understand the main plot and thus was exceptionally self-contained in event standards. The amount of tie-in issues in general was considerably smaller when compared to most major events. Also, while IC, for example, was about bringing the multiverse back first and foremost, FC, IMO, was a story before anything else. While I do enjoy BN, the amount of tie-ins is just ridiculous. Good thing that the most important ones happen to be GL and GLC, both of which I was reading before BN started anyway,

I'd rather have the upcoming War of the Supermen and other events follow FC's than BN's style in how it affects other titles. etc. If that somehow upsets you, well, that's your problem.

I read his post, he never mentions Final Crisis, you brought that up. I'm not upset, but, by the confrontational tone, it appears you are.

[M. Bushbug]

That's your defintion of 'plot device'? Really?That would be the standard definition of plot device.

[Uxas]

I read his post, he never mentions Final Crisis, you brought that up. I'm not upset, but, by the confrontational tone, it appears you are.


My New Year's resolution is to no longer argue with people who continue to sing the praises of Final Crisis. My hope is that they will do the same and stop bringing it up in unrelated threads.

Sigh.

He was talking about events in general, how they're all over the place with their tie-ins and how they're always lacking in actual plot. I agree with him and I brought up FC because IMO it's the only exception. And I hope that events will be handled similary in the future.

So I had a pefectly good reason to bring FC up in this thread. And I'll hope that you'll avoid posting snarky replies to posts that dare to contain the words 'final' and 'crisis' in them.

That's all.

[Bevbos]

I must say, after Blackest Night, it's going to rough to convince me, personally, that a bunch of Kryptonians are a bigger threat.

[Jolly Mon]

I must say, after Blackest Night, it's going to rough to convince me, personally, that a bunch of Kryptonians are a bigger threat.

And thanks for returning us to the two events that this thread is actually about. While 100,000 Superman level beings are certainly a big enough threat, the sheer creepiness of the Black Lanterns wins out for me.

[sociald1077]

I think the thing that makes me think that DC is doing the right thing is that the impetus behind Blackest night is "The Dead Shall Rise!" Not just the dead from earth, or from krypton or just dead lanterns, its all dead across the whole of the DC uninverse. To try and confine that to just the GL books or a mini makes it feel far less reaching than what it really is. By having it reach out with tie-ins and references it really gives the feeling that this is something that is affecting the whole DCU.

With WoNK and the upcoming WoS, its not really affecting the whole DCU. Sure earth is the primary target, but this is a fight between humans and krytonians, not the whole DCU. And more over, I highly doubt that it will be all 100,000 taking up arms aginst earth. It feels like it should be held in the confines of the super books and a mini (maybe) due limited nature of the conflict.

[Uxas]

With WoNK and the upcoming WoS, its not really affecting the whole DCU. Sure earth is the primary target, but this is a fight between humans and krytonians, not the whole DCU. And more over, I highly doubt that it will be all 100,000 taking up arms aginst earth. It feels like it should be held in the confines of the super books and a mini (maybe) due limited nature of the conflict.

DC will be giving out WoS #0 during FCBD, so I'd imagine there's a seperate mini. And you're right, WoS should be as contained as possible.... BN is already too big for my taste and I don't think the fans would be ready to commit to an another huge event so soon after BN anyways. Keep it in a mini and the super books. If tie-ins have to be done, they should be as self-contained as possible. Just like the tie-ins of a certain DCU event of the not so ancient past.

[Tazirai]

Since I don't read Superman but do read the GL books, I'm fine with how these things are run. :tongue:

Same here.. ALTHOUGH, I'm enjoying the HELL outta WoNK.

[Will.S]

That's your defintion of 'plot device'? Really?
Yes........

[d newton]

Yes........
I thought that plot device = deus ex machina which is what the DC characters with light powers aren't.

[Will.S]

I thought that plot device = deus ex machina which is what the DC characters with light powers aren't.
You know what?

Forget it.

[M. Bushbug]

I thought that plot device = deus ex machina which is what the DC characters with light powers aren't.I didn't realize that having light based power equaled taking out the undead in the DCU. When was this first established?

[dupersuper]

That's like, what, a two year buildup to an 8 month event?

Worked for Blackest Night...

[cosmoboy]

I dunno, I think New Krypton at war with Earth would require most of DC's superheroes to hold them at bay since they all have the powers of Superman.
It couldn't possibly take that long for that many Kryptonians to get through the heroes of the DCU.

[Uxas]

100, 000 kryptonians (should) would tear down the planet in half in an hour.

[tommo123]

not with magic folk around. how tough is shazam / black adam anyways?

if the spectre got the nod to fight em, they wouldn't stand a chance