Superman as I know him is dead.

[jolietjonathon]

Superman isn't my favorite character. Never has been. He isn't even in the top three. But, Superman is the character that i get the most emotional about. The first film I ever saw was Superman: The Movie, and one of the first comic books that i ever owned was Superman: The Man of Steel #1. I have a very distinct feeling in my head as to who I believe that Superman is, and it bothers me when I see him portrayed in a way that i feel is detrimental to the character.
For one thing, Hollywood's attempt over the last twenty something years to bring Superman back to the movies has been an exercise in futility. From Superman in a black suit with a razor S shield to Lex Luther having a jive talking robot, and finally to a bland Superman having a baby with an even blander Lois Lane, Hollywood just doesn't seem to get it. It's almost like they are ashamed of Superman and do not believe that the pure essence of the character can hold up a movie anymore. They seem to forget that Richard Donner made two fantastic movies about Superman by staying true to the character. I feel that we will probably never see another Superman movie in our generation because Brian Singer was given the opportunity to do something special and completely dropped the ball and has possibly destroyed Superman's film career for a long time.
On the other side of the spectrum, in my opinion the Superman comics haven't been good since the late 80's, back when they were in the hands of John Byrne and Marv Wolfman. I will admit that I am not a big John Byrne fan, but I did very much enjoy his Superman. The Superman comics stopped being fun for me the moment that Clark Kent told Lois Lane that he was Superman and proposed to her. In my opinion, this small act did more harm to the book then anything else they could have come up with. This act made Superman boring and de-clawed Lois Lane. Now, I am not against superheroes getting married. I never saw the problem with Peter Parker and Mary Jane being married and, much like the majority of comicdom, I believe that One More Day was the single worst comic story published in the decade, maybe ever. But, frankly, Superman isn't Spider-man. Spider-man is every man. He's you and he's me. We can relate to Spider-man. So, its not out of character for Spider-man to get married and then divorced, as this is what the majority of his readers will go through in their lives. But, we can't really relate to Superman. He is an alien. The lone survivor of the planet Krypton. He has powers and abilities that we can't even fathom. But the one the one thing that we could relate to with Superman was his loneliness, and in my opinion this is what made Superman appealing. He is all alone on this planet and he can only be himself around three people, his adopted parents and Lana Lang. He secretly pines for Lois Lane but knows that he can't have her. lest he put her life in danger. We can all relate to those feelings. But now that this is gone, he is just alien.
Of course, DC comics have also ruined other aspects of Superman. They brought back a krypton born Supergirl and have recently brought in thousands of kryptonian's to the planet earth in the "New Krypton" story line. What effect has all of this had on Superman?
He isn't special anymore.
That's why Superman as I know him is dead.

Thanks for reading my long diatribe. This is all just my opinion and if you differ with anything, please feel free to debate it in the response's. Thank you.

[dumbstruck]

I agree, but not for the same reasons. The Superman Homepage is running a series of podcasts covering all the Superman comics between Crisis on Infinite Earths and Infinite Crisis. This is also my definitive era of Superman. Since IC, too many Pre-Crisis and Silver Age elements have been reincorporated into the Superman mythos for my liking. This isn't to say I don't still generally enjoy the current Superman books, but it's not my preferred era. As happens in the industry, things changed. Not necessarily for the better, IMO, but changed nonetheless.

[jolietjonathon]

yeah i agree about too much silver age influence. like i said the first superman comic i read was byrnes man of steel so i have no nostalgia for the silver age what so ever.

[ShaunN]

Thanks for your opinions. I respectfully disagree with a lot of what you said, but I appreciate the sentiment and emotion behind your words. I am not a big fan of Superman, so I don't feel as strongly about these questions as you probably do.

A lot of my disagreement is in matters of taste. I thought that the first two Superman movies, while better than everything that has come since, were also kind of silly and far too campy. Lex Luthor was ludicrous. I appreciate what Singer tried to do, even if he may have failed - but it was a noble failure.

Though you don't mention it specifically, I will say that I think that "Smallville" is an utter disaster.

I agree that Byrne did a good job of revamping the character, but I'm not convinced that what has come since is any less good. And where I do strongly disagree with you is in the decision to marry Lois and Clark. I believe that the characters have to grow and after so many decades of having Lois so stupid that she could not figure out Clark was Superman, the issue was finally resolved. It is true that this has closed out certain avenues, but it has also opened up a great deal. Mature characters get older and change. The decision to marry Lois to Clark was an example of that, just as the decision to destroy Peter's marriage to Mary Jane was a step back to immaturity.

Thanks again for the comments.

[jolietjonathon]

thanks for the comment ShaunN. I also feel that smallville is ridiculous but forgot to mention it.

[dumbstruck]

And where I do strongly disagree with you is in the decision to marry Lois and Clark. I believe that the characters have to grow and after so many decades of having Lois so stupid that she could not figure out Clark was Superman, the issue was finally resolved. It is true that this has closed out certain avenues, but it has also opened up a great deal. Mature characters get older and change. The decision to marry Lois to Clark was an example of that, just as the decision to destroy Peter's marriage to Mary Jane was a step back to immaturity.

I'm with you on this. Marrying Clark and Lois was one of the best ideas ever in the Superman mythos. After all, how long would Lois, a top investigative reporter, not be able to figure it out. To carry this ridiculousness on forever is just painful. It also lessened the need for Clark to constantly come up with lame excuses for his disappearances and absences. It also opened up story possibilities for character growth for Lois and Clark.

[Munkiman]

Of course Superman is still special. New Krypton only serves to emphasize that. Superman isn't special because he's the last son of Krypton. He's special because he is not only gifted with incredible power, but chooses to use that power solely for the benefit of others. New Krypton shows that you can have 100,000 people with all the power of Superman, but he's still unique just for his sheer goodness.

And if you want to read about Lois not knowing Clark is Superman, well, go back and read any one of decades of stories from before he revealed his identity. :P

[Flash's Lightning]

The Superman Homepage is running a series of podcasts covering all the Superman comics between Crisis on Infinite Earths and Infinite Crisis.

I don't have access to broadband, only dial-up...what are the pod casts about? Just reminiscing or do they do interviews, etc? I hope when they get to the '93 - '94 era they interview the creators of the time like Louise Simonson, for one. Great talent back then. Not that talent is that bad now either..


This is also my definitive era of Superman. Since IC, too many Pre-Crisis and Silver Age elements have been reincorporated into the Superman mythos for my liking. This isn't to say I don't still generally enjoy the current Superman books, but it's not my preferred era. As happens in the industry, things changed. Not necessarily for the better, IMO, but changed nonetheless.

Yeah, life is evolution. I think a good idea for DC would be to have one of the 52 earths a 90's style world. 90's Starman, Fate, Mullet Superman (LMAO), Superboy with a jacket, Young Justice. Classic case of having cake and eating it too.

Tell me people wouldn't buy that. :wink:

[Munkiman]

I think Grant Morrion's 90's legacy Earth in Multiversity is going to be something like that.

[Apathetic-piggy]

And where I do strongly disagree with you is in the decision to marry Lois and Clark. I believe that the characters have to grow and after so many decades of having Lois so stupid that she could not figure out Clark was Superman, the issue was finally resolved.

If she was really that stupid, she would have given up that effort. She kept trying because she knew Clark was Superman, but being a journalist, she needed concrete evidence to prove it. She probably wouldn't tell anyone, but that's how she operates. She needs to stick it. That's why she never stopped hounding him about the ordeal. Lois knew, Clark was just one step ahead of her in covering his tracks.

She's a Pulitzer prize winner and has been shown as quite capable in her own right, so it's pretty clear she's not stupid over the glasses. At least not when written correctly. I'm a rather big fan of Lois Lane, so accept this with a shaker of biased salt.


And a lot of the previous points brought up are valid. It's not the powers or isolation that make him Superman, it's the moral compass and his character that do that. The powers are what allow him to use said traits to make a difference for the betterment of mankind. If anything, it's the drive to protect that makes him the beloved hero of Metropolis. The idea that there's someone out there, more powerful than one can imagine, who watches out for and keeps us from harm. He doesn't ask for praise or anything, he does it because it's right.

So long as you keep that spirit in the character, Superman will live. If he can juggle a planet by himself or with his cousin is dressing on the cake. There are different eras, and you're welcome to pick a favorite, but I don't feel DC has betrayed the character's ultimate purpose. New Krypton and the War of Superman is still going, so the jury's out, but so it goes.


Cheers.

[dumbstruck]

I don't have access to broadband, only dial-up...what are the pod casts about? Just reminiscing or do they do interviews, etc? I hope when they get to the '93 - '94 era they interview the creators of the time like Louise Simonson, for one. Great talent back then. Not that talent is that bad now either..

Each episode focuses on a months worth of Superman comics in sequence. They provide a synopsis of the issue, talk about the writing, the art, what they liked, what they didn't like, what is foreshadowing, what hearkens back to story points in previous issues.

Not so much for interviews. They did do one with Marv Wolfman, but that's it.

[JulyDarth]

Different times for different people

Everything is about Wolverine and Batman now


Defendants' film industry expert witness, Mr. [John] Gumpert, termed Superman as "damaged goods," a character so "uncool" as to be considered passe, an opinion echoed by Warner Bros. business affairs executive, Steven Spira... Indeed, Mr. [Alan] Horn [Warner Bros. President] admitted...

[Gabe De Los Muertos]

Doomsday again?

[Dick/babs]

Thanks for your opinions. I respectfully disagree with a lot of what you said, but I appreciate the sentiment and emotion behind your words. I am not a big fan of Superman, so I don't feel as strongly about these questions as you probably do.

in the decision to marry Lois and Clark. I believe that the characters have to grow and after so many decades of having Lois so stupid that she could not figure out Clark was Superman, the issue was finally resolved. It is true that this has closed out certain avenues, but it has also opened up a great deal. Mature characters get older and change. The decision to marry Lois to Clark was an example of that, just as the decision to destroy Peter's marriage to Mary Jane was a step back to immaturity.

Thanks again for the comments.


Seriously tell me one story line the authors used Lois and Clark Marriage for At least Peter and mj marriage opend many potential Story lines

[Retro315]

yeah i agree about too much silver age influence. like i said the first superman comic i read was byrnes man of steel so i have no nostalgia for the silver age what so ever.

Nostalgia is a diamond mine.

Every writer wants to take a stab at going down deep and coming up with an amazing gemstone of an idea, but 99% of the time what you get is just more rocks and dirt.

And sometimes a mine caves in and takes a writer with it.

I think the Super-books have been treading the line pretty well, and in fact, some new stuff is pure diamond. Last Son was one. Brainiac was one. The problem is, they were so epic, the stuff following it has been dredging up whatever it can add to it. And two diamonds with a pile of random stuff on top of them don't stand out much. They've thrown in everything. The original Outsiders. Atlas (granted, I find him to be a worthy addition). Magic worlds that may or may not tie in to the Legion ... Captain Atom (glad he's being used, and love the art, but it's still more on top of the Superman pile). The Creature Commandos. Every single Superman villain in history, from Metropolis to the Phantom Zone, and now to the Kryptonian deities.

This is not a pure critical thing for me. Generally, I really like what's going on with New Krypton. "Krypton is back", and it's having the kind of massive ramifications bringing back an entire culture would have. Some of the new angles are awesome. Some pretty interesting, even if they could be better. All of them have had strong chapters, then dragged, then had another strong chapter, then dragged.

So it's nice that the two diamonds that originally sparked this New Krypton Renaissance - Zod and Brainiac - still stand up and steal the show whenever they show up.

But there's no denying that nostalgia only goes so far - all the back-referencing is too much continuity and not enough story. That's why I like Johns' approach to it - continuity happens, everyone has their history, but he only tends to reference the "major events" - the life-changing stuff, then he gets on with telling the stories he wants to tell.

[dupersuper]

And if you want to read about Lois not knowing Clark is Superman, well, go back and read any one of decades of stories from before he revealed his identity. :P

Or Superman Adventures, or Superfriends, or All-Star Superman, or watch the Reeve movies...the Fleischer cartoons...Kirk Allen serials...Reeves show... Filmation cartoons...Superfriends...Ruby Spears cartoon...Superboy...the 1st couple Lois&Clark seasons...Timmverse cartoons... Smallville...Legion of Superheroes...Krypto...guest spots on The Batman...New Frontier...most of Superman/Doomsday...



And a lot of the previous points brought up are valid. It's not the powers or isolation that make him Superman, it's the moral compass and his character that do that. The powers are what allow him to use said traits to make a difference for the betterment of mankind. If anything, it's the drive to protect that makes him the beloved hero of Metropolis. The idea that there's someone out there, more powerful than one can imagine, who watches out for and keeps us from harm. He doesn't ask for praise or anything, he does it because it's right.

There are different eras, and you're welcome to pick a favorite, but I don't feel DC has betrayed the character's ultimate purpose.

qft


Seriously tell me one story line the authors used Lois and Clark Marriage for At least Peter and mj marriage opend many potential Story lines

huge parts of Simones run, Busieks run, Loebs run, Kellys run...Jurgens, Stern, Azerello, Kessel, Simonson, Carey...:confused:



suffer a mental breakdown after killing the three Kryptonians and develop a separate personality as Crimebuster. Yeah, that was truly a highwater mark for Superman. The book took off when they left and Rodger Stern and company came on board.

Gangbuster...and it was Stern and company that actually wrote that breakdown...



And then there's the irony of loving Bryne's reboot and missing the point of it: he humanized Superman. He made him Clark first and Superman second. That was why the Kents got to live, to ground him and his marriage to Lois was merely an extrapolation of that. Superman saw himself as being "normal" as a result of Bryne, not the "lonely alien" you love so much and normal people marry the women they love.

qft



Finally, Richard Donner made 1/2 a great movie. It ends the moment he takes Lois' hand to go flying and that godawful monologue begins. From that point on it's "Superman vs A Real Estate Scam." And the second film has been overrated crap for almost thirty years. What people see that mess is beyond me. The crappy, campy Richard Lester version and the Richard Donner cut are both awful.

The real estate scam and several Lester bits were silly, but the 1st 2 movies are still great IMHO...heck, even the 3rd has the saving grace of the junkyard fight.


I'm with you on this. Marrying Clark and Lois was one of the best ideas ever in the Superman mythos. After all, how long would Lois, a top investigative reporter, not be able to figure it out. To carry this ridiculousness on forever is just painful. It also lessened the need for Clark to constantly come up with lame excuses for his disappearances and absences. It also opened up story possibilities for character growth for Lois and Clark.

Agreed. I've been a huge Superman fan since I was a kid (I'm 32 now), and the marriage works for me. As for the silver age stuff; I wouldn't mind if they would introduce it into the modern framework, but the many retcons are annoying (I'm a Man of Steel fan as well).

[fanofcomics]

there's a lot to reply to in this thread. Superman has evolved to try to keep an on-going character relevant...sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I could go on about story structure, compelling characterization and so on, but the bottom line is that Superman has always been somewhat mediocre and it reflects in movie adaptations because there will never be a studio that is willing to spend the kind of money it would take to tell a epic Superman story.

Some comments have really slammed Donner's 1st Superman movie and hates on the sequel. Other than the scene Lois flies with Superman, the movie is a classic. It may not measure up to today's standards, but no one can take away it's cinematic relevance. And, come on, part 2 had one of the best lines...

Zod to the President - "Kneel before Zod."
President kneels - "Oh, God."
Zod corrects him - "Zod."

[Apathetic-piggy]

there's a lot to reply to in this thread. Superman has evolved to try to keep an on-going character relevant...sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I could go on about story structure, compelling characterization and so on, but the bottom line is that Superman has always been somewhat mediocre and it reflects in movie adaptations because there will never be a studio that is willing to spend the kind of money it would take to tell a epic Superman story.

Some comments have really slammed Donner's 1st Superman movie and hates on the sequel. Other than the scene Lois flies with Superman, the movie is a classic. It may not measure up to today's standards, but no one can take away it's cinematic relevance. And, come on, part 2 had one of the best lines...

Zod to the President - "Kneel before Zod."
President kneels - "Oh, God."
Zod corrects him - "Zod."

No matter how great or horrible a film is, there is someone who will like or dislike it. Opinions will vary.

[witchboy]

I loved the Byrne reboot, but I think that the silver age influences being returned have been fun, and I'm sure things will change over time and some of those things, like New Krypton, will be gone in time.
Supergirl is a good character in her own right and I don't feel her presence weakens Superman, but gives him a chance to show a different facet to the character. Still miss Linda Danvers to pieces though.
I love the way the Lois and Clark relationship grew and developed. The identity reveal and marriage were perfectly natural imo, and have made Superman more human that he has meaningful relationships and love. Regressing him the way Spider-Man has would be a real mistake imo.

[dupersuper]

the bottom line is that Superman has always been somewhat mediocre

Bite your tongue sir!



come on, part 2 had one of the best lines...
Zod to the President - "Kneel before Zod."
President kneels - "Oh, God."
Zod corrects him - "Zod."

Heh...never mind, you don't have to bite you tongue.