52 & Countdown question [Archive] - Comic Book Resources Forums

joegeek

12-19-2009, 02:15 PM

I have been trying to compile my buy list after being out of comics for 5 years and had a couple questions.

I did not really plan on getting 52 & Countdown but I found a deal that is to hard to pass. So I have read debates all over the net about whether the Countdown tie ins are needed to understand the story, I have found they are not so will not buy those.

I did read though that Death of the New Gods was essential and made the story all that much better. Is this true?

So here is my timeline and what I am buying, as far as big stories from the past 5 years, is it correct?

Idenitiy Crisis
Infinite Crisis
52
Countdown
Final Crisis

I already have, or plan on buying all Batman, GL, Superman, Flash & JLA books so I will have the JLA books for Idenitity.

CYOTI

12-19-2009, 02:31 PM

Death of the New Gods and Countdown are not essential. In fact they make Final Crisis more confusing. It's recommended that you read absolutely nothing related to Countdown. In fact 52 and Morrison's Seven Soldiers project probably are more relevent to Final Crisis than Countdown.

So it's really Identity Crisis -----> Infinite Crisis ---> 52 ---------> Final Crisis.

joegeek

12-19-2009, 03:06 PM

Desaad

12-19-2009, 03:08 PM

I totally agree with that. Death of the New Gods contradicts Countdown, and both of them contradict Final Crisis. If you really want to read Countdown, feel free, but I wouldn't read it as part of the event sequence (being truthful, I wouldn't read it at all).

To best understand everything, I would read....

Identity Crisis --> Countdown to Infinite Crisis/Villains United/OMAC Project/Day of Vengeance/Rann/Thanagar War --> Infinite Crisis --> Seven Soldiers of Victory --> 52 --> Final Crisis/Superman Beyond/Revelations/Rogues Revenge/Resist/Submit (with the exception of Superman Beyond, the Final Crisis tie ins are not necessary, but they are really really good)

carabas

12-19-2009, 03:12 PM

OK, so just scrap anything that has "Countdown" on it and get 52. I mean I can get all 52 books for about 40 cents each, I might as well.

I plan on buying FC 1-7 + all the other's from Legion of 3 Worlds, Rogues Rvenge, etc, is that best?
It goes like this, according to Grant Morrison:
Final Crisis #1-3
Superman Beyond #1-2
Submit
Final Crisis #4–5
Batman #682–683
Final Crisis #6–7

that's it, the complete story. Everything else has negligible or no connection to Final Crisis, no matter what it says on the cover.

CYOTI

12-19-2009, 03:46 PM

Also for Infinite Crisis, it probably also helps to read OMAC Project (including the Sacrifice four parter and Countdown to Infinite Crisis) and also Crisis of Conscience (which happens right before Infinite Crisis) since they directly spring from the issues relating to Identity Crisis. I personally wouldn't recommend Days of Vengeance or Rann Thanagar War though Villains United I think is a must since the formation of the Society is one of the issues that spring from Identity Crisis.

Thok

12-19-2009, 03:48 PM

While it's true that Rogue's Revenge, Legion of Three Worlds, and Rage of the Red Lanterns really have nothing to do with Final Crisis, they are worth getting if you are interested in some insight into the current Flash status quo, the upcoming Superman event, and Blackest Night respectively.

Beacon

12-19-2009, 04:22 PM

Identity Crisis is garbage but its important garbage.

Infinite Crisis is huge for the Trinity but it’s arguable that the lead-in minis (Villains United, OMAC Project, ect) did more to set up the future for the overall DCU.

The Trinity mostly sat out 52 but it’s a generally good (if somewhat uneven) story that fills in a lot of the gaps between Infinite Crisis and One Year Later.

Despite the marketing Countdown to Final Crisis has very little to do with Final Crisis. It also failed to have much of an impact despite countless tie-ins.

I liked Final Crisis (you get more out of it by reading Seven Soldiers than Countdown) but a lot of people don’t. Considering that the story has mostly been ignored or reversed, many of those people seem to be on DC’s editorial staff. Still, It’s a must-read for Batman and Flash fans.

carabas

12-19-2009, 05:15 PM

Thok

12-19-2009, 06:24 PM

What exactly does the upcoming Superman event have to do with L3W? I haven't really heard much about it.

The common theme of March's Superman solicits is "Brainiac and the Legion of Superheroes".

joegeek

12-20-2009, 03:44 AM

Infinite Crisis is huge for the Trinity but it’s arguable that the lead-in minis (Villains United, OMAC Project, ect) did more to set up the future for the overall DCU.

Despite the marketing Countdown to Final Crisis has very little to do with Final Crisis. It also failed to have much of an impact despite countless tie-ins.

Does Villians United have to do with the Rogues? If so, I might as well pick these up.

I would hate to read Identiy, Infinite, 52 and a bunch of tie ins and just leave Countdown. Are Batman, Sup's, GL or Flash in Countdown at all?

carabas

12-20-2009, 04:11 AM

Does Villians United have to do with the Rogues? If so, I might as well pick these up.If you mean the Flash Rogues, not really.

It is the story of The Society Luthor, Black Adam, Deathstroke and the rst set up in response to Identity Crisis.

It's main importance is that it really is Secret Six vol. 0.

joegeek

12-20-2009, 05:45 AM

Oh, well then if it will have no effect on my main titles (Batman, Superman, Falsh, GL) then is there any point in buying it?

carabas

12-20-2009, 06:38 AM

Yes. It is a very good story.

And it is fairly essential to Infinite Crisis.

CYOTI

12-20-2009, 09:19 AM

Oh, well then if it will have no effect on my main titles (Batman, Superman, Falsh, GL) then is there any point in buying it?

It sets up the villains for Infinite Crisis.

Beacon

12-20-2009, 12:02 PM

Does Villians United have to do with the Rogues? If so, I might as well pick these up.

The Flash Rogues mostly managed to avoid being recruited by the Secret Society. However pretty much everyone else’s villains ended up in either the Society or the Secret Six.

You might want to at least skim the first issue if you’re a fan of Silver Age Flash villains.

I would hate to read Identiy, Infinite, 52 and a bunch of tie ins and just leave Countdown. Are Batman, Sup's, GL or Flash in Countdown at all?

They’re all in Countdown (well, Bart is the Flash in Countdown and I don’t recall the GLs having much of a role aside from Kyle) but the story is more about Jimmy Olsen and Jason Todd than Superman and Batman.

Peter Svensson

12-20-2009, 01:09 PM

Villains United is really just the origin story of the new Secret Six, who currently have their own ongoing title. It does set up some elements of Infinite Crisis, but for the most part you can skip it. "All the villains have teamed up" is the gist of what you'd need to know.

Munkiman

12-20-2009, 01:23 PM

But don't read Countdown. If you want to see things with Superman, Batman, Flash and GL, read a good story with them, like one of the old JLAs.

joegeek

12-20-2009, 01:42 PM

Got, thanks for all the help.

Now I have one issue I need to solve. I need to find a list of all story arcs with crossovers for Superman, Flash & GL from late 05 to current.

I already have the Batman list, and I have the 4 part Sacrafice Superman.

I think GL only has Sinestro War and BN, which I know about. Any others you know fo 4 Sup's, GL and Flash?

carabas

12-20-2009, 03:19 PM

"All the villains have teamed up" is the gist of what you'd need to know.I am of the controverial opinion that stories need to be enjoyed because they are very good, and not because they have some importance to larger but much less good story.

Beacon

12-20-2009, 03:26 PM

I am of the controverial opinion that stories need to be enjoyed because they are very good, and not because they have some importance to larger but much less good story.

... and VU was the best IC lead-in by a rather large margin anyway.

Besides, the VU one-shot that followed this mini has a HUGE impact on IC.

Peter Svensson

12-20-2009, 03:59 PM

I am of the controverial opinion that stories need to be enjoyed because they are very good, and not because they have some importance to larger but much less good story.

Yes, but he's not asking for good stories, but ones he needs to understand a crossover event. Villains United was a great comic, and one I highly recommend reading, but if you're just trying to get the gist of Infinite Crisis it's the least important.

carabas

12-20-2009, 05:21 PM

If you're just trying to get the gist of it, you're better of with Wikipedia.

Meanwhile, after The OMAC Project, Villains United was the most important Countdown to Infinite Crisis mini in trems of how relevant story was to the main book.

Choppa

12-20-2009, 05:31 PM

To be clear, 52 does not fill in any of the gap between IC and OYL. There's maybe one issue that concerns Batman, but it's more about the others than Wonder Woman and Superman.

Also, Infinite Crisis really has no point either. All of the people who die end up coming back later on and most of the big reveals don't even happen in the main story. The only thing it really does is re-introduce Superboy Prime in a new role, but the IC Secret Files does a much better job of describing it than IC itself.

CYOTI

12-20-2009, 05:45 PM

To be clear, 52 does not fill in any of the gap between IC and OYL. There's maybe one issue that concerns Batman, but it's more about the others than Wonder Woman and Superman. Actually the stuff with Batman is pretty important especially since it was written by Grant Morrison himself and tells how Batman gets from the state in IC where he is almost all, but broken to OYL where he has put himself back together..

Also, Infinite Crisis really has no point either. All of the people who die end up coming back later on and most of the big reveals don't even happen in the main story. IC is what precipitates the return of the multiverse, it also sets up 52 with Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman taking a break from their duties. It's also where the original Superman and Lois die.

Choppa

12-20-2009, 07:58 PM

Actually the stuff with Batman is pretty important especially since it was written by Grant Morrison himself and tells how Batman gets from the state in IC where he is almost all, but broken to OYL where he has put himself back together..

The Batman issue does more to setup Morrison's run more than it does to explain why or how Batman learned that he needs to trust others. And instead of undoing the Bat-god persona it instead follows into a story about how Batman is the most prepared person in history (literally).

IC is what precipitates the return of the multiverse, it also sets up 52 with Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman taking a break from their duties. It's also where the original Superman and Lois die.

The MV is restored in a single panel and then actually revealed to have happened in 52, so it's hardly a setup. As for Lois and E2 Supes, their stories begin and end in IC, so they really don't have any kind of impact on any of the other stories, especially since nothing really changes with Superman. And the absence of Batman, WW, and Superman has pretty much no impact on the events of 52. We really don't see the affect of them missing at all, except for in Metropolis.

joegeek

12-21-2009, 05:20 AM

I guess, besides beyong wrapped up in Supes, Batman, Gl & Flash and their continuity, what I want is to know what is going on as a whole in the multiverse.

I thoguht that could be accomplished by just buying the main part of the "big story" each year DC pumps out, and decide on tie ins and such on preview basis. So this way besides the characters I like, I would have a knowledge about the universe as a whole.

I bought all of the following complete runs last night off my buddy, it seems to be a good deal. If 52 or anything blow, that is ok, the price was right. $120 for this entire lot.

IC TPB
IC 80 pg giant preview
IC Sceret Files
52 complete run
World War 1-4 run
Countdown complete run
Omac run
Omac project run
Villians United run
Countdown Arena run (it looks cool so I bought it)

These should fill the gaps for me between Crisis on Infinite Earth and Final Crisis.

The buy I bought this lot from has Final Crisis 1-7 and all the other FC books for a good price so I might just grab those also.

CYOTI

12-21-2009, 05:36 AM

The Batman issue does more to setup Morrison's run more than it does to explain why or how Batman learned that he needs to trust others. Ahemm, did you even read Infinite Crisis? He had more pressing issues such as the fact that he was close to a mental breakdown because of the multitude of troubles he had faced. The two issues in 52 addressed that and set up Morrison's run.

As for Lois and E2 Supes, their stories begin and end in IC
E2 Superman was the original S&S Superman, his death is pretty important in the greater scheme of the DCU.

And the absence of Batman, WW, and Superman has pretty much no impact on the events of 52. World War 3? Intergang in Gotham? Luthor and the shit he pulled? No impact whatsoever, riiiiight.

CYOTI

12-21-2009, 05:39 AM

I guess, besides beyong wrapped up in Supes, Batman, Gl & Flash and their continuity, what I want is to know what is going on as a whole in the multiverse.
52, Sinestro Corps War, Final Crisis, Final Crisis Superman Beyond are probably your best bets on stuff on the Multiversity. Grant Morrison also has an upcoming mini called Multiversity dealing with some of the new worlds.

joegeek

12-21-2009, 05:42 AM

E2 Superman was the original S&S Superman, his death is pretty important in the greater scheme of the DCU.

What would I have to pick up to full understand his death?

Also, is jumping from the first Crisis to Infinite seems like a big jump. Besides The Death of Superman, are there any other DCU grand scheme stories to read?

CYOTI

12-21-2009, 05:54 AM

What would I have to pick up to full understand his death? Crisis on Infinite Earths, since Infinite Crisis is pretty much its sequel.

Also, is jumping from the first Crisis to Infinite seems like a big jump.
Yes there is a gap of 20+ years between the publication of CoiE and Infinite Crisis.

Besides The Death of Superman, are there any other DCU grand scheme stories to read? For overall reading enjoyment or just to better understand the current crop of events?

joegeek

12-21-2009, 06:11 AM

Just for understanding, maybe some enjoyment. I have already read every Batman from '86+ and will be reading all Superman, Flash & GL starting from '04 or so.

So i guess if there are any huge DCu events between COIE and IC I would like to read that and is GL, Flash and Superman had any big event, I might enjoy those and it might mekes current books more fun.

BTW, thank you for all the help.

carabas

12-21-2009, 06:42 AM

Here's a really good tip: you'll get far more enjoyment out of your comics once you learn to just ignore all of these crisises. None of them are even remotely relevant to what is happening now.

Just read what you enjoy reading.

joegeek

12-21-2009, 06:56 AM

Got it. I do want to read 52 & Countdown though and a few of the tie ins, lead ups.

Is there a TPB that covers Supes death, return?

Off topic but how much do the current Adventure comics tie into Bn & the Superman Story line?

CYOTI

12-21-2009, 08:06 AM

Death of Superman
World Without a Superman
Return of Superman

CYOTI

12-21-2009, 08:12 AM

Off topic but how much do the current Adventure comics tie into Bn & the Superman Story line? Currently not much aside from brief appearance of Luthor and Brainiac and the current BN tie-in which is about Superboy Prime and Alex Luthor.

But in #7, we are suppose to get a more direct tie-in and then #8 to #11 will have the Legion involved in the current Superman story along with a backup story about the Human Defense Corps, an army unit that fights alien and demonic threats.

Michael P

12-21-2009, 08:45 AM

Skip Countdown, because Countdown blows, and as far as Final Crisis goes, just stick to the hardcover. Nothing else matters but Morrison's story, and that's where it is.

joegeek

12-21-2009, 09:00 AM

Alright, so Adventure can be skipped until they have a direct Superman x over.

So being only a Bat, Sup, GL & Flash collector, I can just get FC 1-7 and skip the rest?

Gabe De Los Muertos

12-21-2009, 09:02 AM

Alright, so Adventure can be skipped until they have a direct Superman x over.

So being only a Bat, Sup, GL & Flash collector, I can just get FC 1-7 and skip the rest?

Yes. R.I.P. helps out with Batman's role in FC, though.

The Chief5425

12-21-2009, 09:03 AM

Ye Gods, man, how much money do you have to spend on back issues?!? Can I be adopted?!?!? :smile:

As somebody said, most of the Crises have virtually no relevance in understanding the story going forward--just about everybody who was dead is alive again (or most likely will be after "Blackest Night"), many of the changes from Infinite Crisis (the return of the pre-Zero Hour Legion, the return of Wonder Woman's history with the JLA, the return of Joe Chill) were actually just backsteps to pre-Crisis on Infinite Earths continuity. I'd read "Identity Crisis" because I thought it was a helluva read and I'd skip "Final Crisis" because I thought it was complete shit, but you'll find plenty of people who will disagree on both counts (and plenty who will agree, for that matter). Hit the Wiki to get the broad outline, if it sounds like your cuppa tea go forth and stimulate the economy at your LCS.

CYOTI

12-21-2009, 09:04 AM

Alright, so Adventure can be skipped until they have a direct Superman x over.

So being only a Bat, Sup, GL & Flash collector, I can just get FC 1-7 and skip the rest?
Except for Final Crisis Superman Beyond, the rest I think are skippable.

Gabe De Los Muertos

12-21-2009, 09:05 AM

Except for Final Crisis Superman Beyond, the rest I think are skippable.

Well Superman Beyond is included in the HC.

Maestro

12-21-2009, 09:09 AM

Identity Crisis is the only good crisis. the rest are too confusing (especially COIE and Final Crisis). and having read most of the buildup to Infinite Crisis, I think that story's a waste of time too. the Multiverse just doesn't seem like a good concept that has lead to great stories. quite the opposite I think. Marvel has better "events", IMO...

Gabe De Los Muertos

12-21-2009, 09:11 AM

Choppa

12-21-2009, 09:14 AM

Ahemm, did you even read Infinite Crisis? He had more pressing issues such as the fact that he was close to a mental breakdown because of the multitude of troubles he had faced. The two issues in 52 addressed that and set up Morrison's run.

I must have missed something there, because from what I remember, his issues in 52 just showed him going through that Thongul ritual. It never addressed any of the things that happened prior to IC such as the OMAC stuff or any of the other stories that happened and supposedly caused him to have his break down.

In fact, IIRC, it just opened up his mind to the Zur-en-Arh personality which turned him back into Super-bat.

E2 Superman was the original S&S Superman, his death is pretty important in the greater scheme of the DCU.

Okay, If you say so...

World War 3? Intergang in Gotham? Luthor and the shit he pulled? No impact whatsoever, riiiiight.

Why and how did Gordon and Bullock come back to the GCPD? What happened to Jason? What was Harvey doing in Gotham while Batman was gone? How did the people feel about Batman being gone? All we saw was stuff from Batwoman's (a new character) point of view. What about the characters and story threads that were already established and then forgotten?

CYOTI

12-21-2009, 09:18 AM

I must have missed something there, because from what I remember, his issues in 52 just showed him going through that Thongul ritual. It never addressed any of the things that happened prior to IC such as the OMAC stuff or any of the other stories that happened and supposedly caused him to have his break down The issue where he had the ten eyed man cut out his demons. And also the Thogal ritual which he only underwent after that didn't work.