What is a "mature" storyline involving superheroes (big 2 specifically)

[AllisterH]

You know, people always argue whether or not a storyline is mature or if it is just going for the sh(l)ock value so what are everybody's favourite example of a mature storyline involving superhero characters from Marvel or DC?

[KevinTBrown]

DC:

Batman: The Dark Knight Returns.

Marvel:

X-Men: God Loves, Man Kills.

[Charles RB]

Busiek and Ross' Marvels.

[Free-Man]

Alias at Marvel
Starman (the 90's series, NOT the 80's) at DC

[Sijo]

Shouldn't we define "mature" first? (I think we can all agree that "blatant sexuality" and "graphic violence" are not deciding factors here.)

[Lester C.]

The classic example would be Watchmen.

[the4thpip]

The classic example would be Watchmen.

Kids today!
The classic example is Hard Traveling Heroes!

[Corrina]

Longbow Hunters.

Starman has already been mentioned.

I'd add Brubaker's Catwoman series as well. As violent as it go, as sexy as it go, I would still rather my teenagers read this book that deals with those issues in a mature, well-written way, than to provide them with the adolescent dreck that is Identity Crisis.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Longbow Hunters.

Starman has already been mentioned.

I'd add Brubaker's Catwoman series as well. As violent as it go, as sexy as it go, I would still rather my teenagers read this book that deals with those issues in a mature, well-written way, than to provide them with the adolescent dreck that is Identity Crisis.

Identity Crisis was such a shock value, overly hyped hack-fest, IMO.

The true shame was that it overshadowed a much superior mini that came outta DC, The New Frontier.

Truly criminal, that. :mad:

[LewisH]

thought provoking stories aimed towards more mature readers long before 1985 rolled around and mature became a code word for gratuitous death and deconstructionism.

GA/GL Hard Traveling Heroes has been mentioned. Around the same time Marvel was having Spiderman storylines that didn't shy away from controversial topics of the day. Just about anything that Steranko had anything to do with fits the bill as well.

[Brack360]

Gotham Central
Brian Azzarello's Joker

[Linkara]

I'd say Kingdom Come, actually.

Yeah, Identity Crisis isn't what I'd call "mature."

[Vakanai]

For DC, I'd have to say, judging from the move alone, Superman Batman: Public Enemies.

:biggrin: :tongue:

[Gryphon]

I'd say Kingdom Come, actually.

i agree completely

[TCJohnson]

Grant Morrison's Animal Man.

[The Beast Of Yucca Flats]

New Frontier
Batman Adventures: Mad Love
Hitman (had it's instances of immaturity, the difference being that when they happened, there weren't any bones about what they were)
Starman
The Brubaker years of Catwoman
BOP: the Gail period

[Spackling Compound]

Is that even germaine today? Mature? What...guys in tights who rape, mindwipe and kill one another and then WHOOOAHHH they are back from the dead? Mature?

I just read two novels for teens (Libba Bray's "Going Bovine" and one called "The Perks of Being a Wallflower"). These are marketed to kids and had a healthy helping of suicidal thoughts, drug use, sexual intercourse (some straight sex as well) and themes of life, death, family, adultery and other things. This is for teens.

So I'd say if a kid is over 11..nothing is too mature these days in comics.

[JamesRitcheyIII]

Mature superhero comics is an oxymoron. It's like saying 'Mature Wish Fulfillment'. Even the most sophisticated material in our flavor of comics relies heavily on catharsis. Of two of the finest examples mentioned, Batman breaks the Joker's neck, or Rorschach puts a cigarette out in a bully's eye. It's not the 48 year old who's well-read in the classics, and from Conrad to Joyce and Hesse to Kerouac--who yells 'Wicked!' when Bats kicks Supes' ass--it's the ten year old. There is a sense of child-like wonder in both Kingdom Come and Marvels, as well. The best we have are smart adventure stories.

There is only intelligently and passionately done, or stupidly and soullessly done.

[Red Jack]

Grant Morrison's Animal Man.

Animal Man (Morrisson)

Invisibles (Morrisson) - I count them because they displayed paranormal abillities.

Swamp Thing (Moore)

Watchmen

Astro City

The entire MILESTONE line. Its failure was due entirely to the fact that the majority of comics fans weren't mature enough to handle the basic concept.

Sandman (Several superheroes were present and there'd be no Daniel without superheroes)

I can't think of a single Marvel comic that has ever been remotely challenging to the mind which, to me, is what you need if you're sticking MATURE READERS on the book. Which isn't a knock against Marvel. The closest they've ever come to deserving a FOR MATURE READERS tag is the current ABNETT/LANNING cosmic stuff which, as much as I love it, only makes me wish these were indy books so the pair could REALLY get loose.

EDIT:

JMS's Bullet Points. Excellent "MATURE" Marvel comic. Priest's BLACK PANTHER.

[Charles RB]

Even the most sophisticated material in our flavor of comics relies heavily on catharsis. Of two of the finest examples mentioned, Batman breaks the Joker's neck, or Rorschach puts a cigarette out in a bully's eye

I really doubt the mentally disturbed character blinding an older child and attacking the other with his teeth was meant to be carthartic.

[Alex L]

I can't think of a single Marvel comic that has ever been remotely challenging to the mind which, to me, is what you need if you're sticking MATURE READERS on the book. Which isn't a knock against Marvel. The closest they've ever come to deserving a FOR MATURE READERS tag is the current ABNETT/LANNING cosmic stuff which, as much as I love it, only makes me wish these were indy books so the pair could REALLY get loose.

Possibly Ennis' Punisher MAX (which I haven't read in a long, long time).

[AllisterH]

Kingdom Come is a mature storyline?

It's interesting to see what people consider mature storylines since many of the ones listed I personally don't agree with.

For example, KC I always found to be pretty simplistic (and the HUGE ass plot hole at the very beginning annoyed me and soured me on the whole comic)

My example I would use would be Gruenwald's 12 issue Squadron Supreme.

And even that doesn't qualify really as a Big two comic since it involved an alternate orld that didn't use the mainstream marvel heroes.

re: Definition of mature

For me, a mature storyline is one where there's an issue and both the pros and cons are given equally weight as opposed to say something like Civil War or Kingdom Come in how it was presented.

[JamesRitcheyIII]

I really doubt the mentally disturbed character blinding an older child and attacking the other with his teeth was meant to be cathartic.

Intensity isn't Maturity, either. The best adventure stories are almost always the most realistic, to my mind. Overcoming shitty things in a shit world leads to the greatest elation for a reader. The catharsis lies in what Rorschach does to that Pedo bastard in the aftermath. Hopefully, we identified with R. rather than the Pedo...

In fact, Rorschach is completely 'The Id Gone Wild'--and it's a credit to Moore that we likely identify with him as much anyone in the story--considering how vile he is. He is gleeful abandon of consensus--personified.

[Charles RB]

The catharsis lies in what Rorschach does to that Pedo bastard in the aftermath.

Rorschach having a nervous breakdown that renders him completely incapable of human interaction and thought, burning someone to death, and then calmly traumatising a man with a philosophy of hideous bleakness - that's carthartic in the sense that it's trying to create a strong emotional change in the reader, but the emotion isn't meant to be elation.

[Corrina]

Mature superhero comics is an oxymoron. It's like saying 'Mature Wish Fulfillment'.


There is only intelligently and passionately done, or stupidly and soullessly done.

Sandman Mystery Theatre.

Definitely mature/adult in subject material and not something I'd even let my teenagers near. Over 18 stuff, definitely.

But also wonderfully done.

[Charles RB]

How'd I forget Mystery Theatre? (Screw Batman, Wesley Dodds is the REAL Greatest Detective!)

[JamesRitcheyIII]

Sandman Mystery Theatre.

Definitely mature/adult in subject material and not something I'd even let my teenagers near. Over 18 stuff, definitely.

But also wonderfully done.

Preaching to the choir about how GREAT Matt Wagner is--he's one of a dozen comics people I consider squarely an influence. But can't you see how calling what is essentially pulp adventure 'mature' has a level of irony?

My point is...there's mature, and there's for mature audiences. I just loathe that the word has been purloined to become a rating in the popular mind, while the highest meaning of maturity flounders--WISDOM--something to strive for. A journey that only begins when someone realizes exactly how immature they are. Western Man is loaded with hubris in that regard. Violent and grim is the polar opposite of mature, but can be creatively magnificent if someone puts their soul and their brain into it--and just because something is cathartic, it doesn't make it bad; any more than Henry Miller drinking and whoring makes his writing any less deep. It might seem semantics to some, but 'mature' means more than you can legally buy beer--and there are more precise words for the attribution folks are trying to convey.

Besides (Charles)--the original meaning of Catharsis is purification or clarification--not 'getting one's rocks off'. Catharsis is a useful thing--and the main reason anyone ever does Art.

[dupont2005]

Shouldn't we define "mature" first? (I think we can all agree that "blatant sexuality" and "graphic violence" are not deciding factors here.)

something that isn't stuffed with adverts for toys and cartoons.

[Corrina]

Ah, I see where you were parsing the definition James.

Totally understand what you meant now. I agree, there's a difference between "mature work" and "for mature audiences."

[Charles RB]

Besides (Charles)--the original meaning of Catharsis is purification or clarification--not 'getting one's rocks off'.

Now yes, I was wrong before, carthartic has a wider meaning that I first thought, but in this case you said:


Overcoming shitty things in a shit world leads to the greatest elation for a reader. The catharsis lies in what Rorschach does to that Pedo bastard in the aftermath.

Since you went straight from talking about elation to talking about Rorchach doing something to "that Pedo bastard", it looked like you were saying the reader is meant to feel elation in that scene.

[Iangould]

I agree with James.

"A student murders an old lady for kicks but then goes crazy from guilt."

"A man is haunted by his dead father who wants him to avenge his murder."

"A man is sent into the Congo jungle to murder a government agent gone rogue."

How could this sort of lurid crap ever be taken seriously?

[DHacker615]

Shouldn't we define "mature" first? (I think we can all agree that "blatant sexuality" and "graphic violence" are not deciding factors here.)

To me, it is a creative team that manages to use literary techniques, cinematic techniques and techniques unique to comics to say something personal. WATCHMEN is obviously the big one, but KINGDOM COME, SANDMAN and STARMAN were pretty good examples as well. NEW FRONTIER, FABLES and ALL-STAR SUPERMAN are the best recent examples from DC.

[bringthenoise]

I agree with James.

"A student murders an old lady for kicks but then goes crazy from guilt."

"A man is haunted by his dead father who wants him to avenge his murder."

"A man is sent into the Congo jungle to murder a government agent gone rogue."

How could this sort of lurid crap ever be taken seriously?

Alright, number two is Hamlet, and number three is Heart Of Darkness, but what's the first one?

[Tobias March]

Alright, number two is Hamlet, and number three is Heart Of Darkness, but what's the first one?

Crime and Punishment.

[Spackling Compound]

I agree with James.

"A student murders an old lady for kicks but then goes crazy from guilt."

"A man is haunted by his dead father who wants him to avenge his murder."

"A man is sent into the Congo jungle to murder a government agent gone rogue."

How could this sort of lurid crap ever be taken seriously?

Good points.

Coming from Catholic school background, by the second grade we'd heard the lurid details of the Stations of the Cross, the martyrdom of several saints and read Bible stories that included fratricide.

Come to think of it, a lot of that was kindergarten.

I suppose "mature" is when the literature stops being didactic or formational and is just a work where, as someone said earlier, all things are held equal.

In comics its a bit strange because most people don't consider Superman capable of rape or murderous. They won't consider Batman as one who would endanger children. Spider-man won't eat eyeballs. But with the current crop of writers, these things can happen and do.
So instead of the fifties when a kid could drink his milk and be strong like Superman, we now have a context where comics are saying, "C'mon, grow up, kid. Even Superman isn't 'super'."