What Do Doyle Purists Think of the Sherlock Holmes Film?

[Free-Man]

I know it's not out yet, but I'm interested in what the hardcore Holmes fans think.

[Shisho]

I'm torn. Part of me wants to not like it, part of me can't wait to see it.

I'm going to watch it and turn off my purist self because Robert Downey Jr. always makes for a good time.

[Stressfactor]

Rather hating that they felt the need to include explosions and sex up the character of Irene Adler.

[Vakanai]

I believe it's going to be a bad Sherlock Holmes film, but a good non-Sherlock Holmes film. So it's going to depend probably on whether you can just let it go as a Holmes in name only kind of thing and enjoy it on its own merits, unrelated to Doyle's work.

[Shisho]

Rather hating that they felt the need to include explosions and sex up the character of Irene Adler.

I was torn on that too. I wasn't sure if that was Adler or not, but I think it's neat they brought her into it as she's such a cool character.

On a side note, I'm glad they are turning the tradition of Watson as a bumbling dodo on its head.

[Free-Man]

I was torn on that too. I wasn't sure if that was Adler or not, but I think it's neat they brought her into it as she's such a cool character.

On a side note, I'm glad they are turning the tradition of Watson as a bumbling dodo on its head.

It's also interesting to see them avoiding the deer hunter cap.

[ScottyQuick]

I'm not really a purist because I've only read a couple of stories, but man, WTF is up with the way Irene Adler is in the film?

[FeminineMystique]

I'm torn. Part of me wants to not like it, part of me can't wait to see it.

I'm going to watch it and turn off my purist self because Robert Downey Jr. always makes for a good time.

If Downey can do for Holmes what he did for Iron Man I get the feeling it'll be a fun film to watch, at the least

[Shisho]

It's also interesting to see them avoiding the deer hunter cap.

Truth to tell, I was picking apart the brief clips I've been able to catch on TV to see if they'll completely mess it up, and I haven't found much that would lead me to think it strays too far away from the books. I mean, Watson was a war veteran, it would lead one to think he might have actually been a badass.

I'm curious to see if they make a mention of Holmes being a coke-head, given Downey's history. :biggrin:

[DubipR]

He looks more like a chimney sweeper than an educated man; although this could be Holmes after a 10 day bender of cocaine, as he was prone to indulge in.

And it has the Guy Ritchie stigma of it too. I was hoping for a less MTV look and a simple Victorian directed feel of it, like how Steven Soderbrough made Kafka. A well light drama

[Vakanai]

It's also interesting to see them avoiding the deer hunter cap.

I'm going to be honest, I miss it.

[Corrina]

I know it's not out yet, but I'm interested in what the hardcore Holmes fans think.

Kinda hard to tell without seeing the movie. :)

I love Downey Jr., and he looks like he's having fun. I could probably enjoy it as a Robert Downey Jr. movie, rather than a Holmes movie. Though, you know, Holmes boxed and he knew martial arts. So that's not completely out of bounds. I suspect it will be a big 'ol mess, though.

Looks like they made Watson competent. So that's one in the plus column.

[Free-Man]

Truth to tell, I was picking apart the brief clips I've been able to catch on TV to see if they'll completely mess it up, and I haven't found much that would lead me to think it strays too far away from the books. I mean, Watson was a war veteran, it would lead one to think he might have actually been a badass.

I'm curious to see if they make a mention of Holmes being a coke-head, given Downey's history. :biggrin:

It's also interesting to note that they left out Moriarty.

[Corrina]

Moriarty only appears in one story. He was created as a way to get rid of Holmes because Doyle was quite sick of the character.

Retroactively, Moriarty was inserted as the mastermind in the Valley of Fear--(a story written after The Final Problem but take place in canon before it) though he never appears on-screen, he's simply referenced. He's also referenced in the Adventure of the Empty House as quite dead.

I actually think the villain in Sign of the Four is a lot more interesting. He and his henchmen with the poison darks get killed off, though. There are explosions in the climax of that story.

[Cam63]

I heard they replaced his standard curved tobacco pipe with a bong.










...Probably a silly rumour.

[Free-Man]

Moriarty only appears in one story. He was created as a way to get rid of Holmes because Doyle was quite sick of the character.

I'm aware of that, but he seems to be the Holmes villain that gets adapted most often in other mediums.

[Perry Holley]

It's also interesting to see them avoiding the deer hunter cap.I'd have to ask my wife to make certain, as she's the hardcore Sherlockian of our house (her maiden name was Moriarity, so it's not like she really had a choice), but I think that the deerstalker cap, while common in the illustrations of the time, wasn't really mentioned much if at all in the actual stories.

[Vakanai]

I'd have to ask my wife to make certain, as she's the hardcore Sherlockian of our house (her maiden name was Moriarity, so it's not like she really had a choice), but I think that the deerstalker cap, while common in the illustrations of the time, wasn't really mentioned much if at all in the actual stories.

True.
But I'm still going to miss it.

[Free-Man]

I'd have to ask my wife to make certain, as she's the hardcore Sherlockian of our house (her maiden name was Moriarity, so it's not like she really had a choice), but I think that the deerstalker cap, while common in the illustrations of the time, wasn't really mentioned much if at all in the actual stories.

Interesting. I don't seem to remember it ever being mentioned at all.

And it does seem like they're making Holmes' apartment a mess. I believe that was something established in the books.

[Pól Rua]

I'd have to ask my wife to make certain, as she's the hardcore Sherlockian of our house (her maiden name was Moriarity, so it's not like she really had a choice), but I think that the deerstalker cap, while common in the illustrations of the time, wasn't really mentioned much if at all in the actual stories.

I haven't read it in ages, but I think he may have been depicted wearing it in 'The Hound of the Baskervilles' because the deerstalker and coat are designed as wet weather gear and he was traipsing about the moors.
It may not even have been in Conan Doyle's original text, but rather in illustrations in The Strand Magazine.

I think this'll be a fun adventure movie, and a terrible Sherlock Holmes movie.
If you want to see a proper Sherlock Holmes, I recommend the TV series from the 1980's with Jeremy Brett. I believe the whole thing is readily available on DVD.
http://blog.cleveland.com/pdextra/2007/10/medium_holmes7.jpg

[Vakanai]

I think this'll be a fun adventure movie, and a terrible Sherlock Holmes movie.
If you want to see a proper Sherlock Holmes, I recommend the TV series from the 1980's with Jeremy Brett. I believe the whole thing is readily available on DVD.
http://blog.cleveland.com/pdextra/2007/10/medium_holmes7.jpg

It is, and agreed!
Some of the best Sherlock Holmes stuff ever. Thing was a work of art.

[scandalsavage]

I am really looking forward to it and will go with an open mind. Even if it stinks I'll still get to look at Jude Law and Robert Downey, Jr. for a couple of hours.

[Corrina]

True.
But I'm still going to miss it.

I think Holmes might have worn it once or twice in a story.

But the curved pipe is definitely not Canon. That was used by actor Wiliam Gillette in his stage play of Sherlock Holmes that became a sensation. Gillette liked the curved pipe because it allowed him to speak his lines better than a straight pipe and also was a more visible prop.

*Incidentally, Gillette's Castle in CT is a lot of fun to visit.

[Vakanai]

I think Holmes might have worn it once or twice in a story.

But the curved pipe is definitely not Canon. That was used by actor Wiliam Gillette in his stage play of Sherlock Holmes that became a sensation. Gillette liked the curved pipe because it allowed him to speak his lines better than a straight pipe and also was a more visible prop.

*Incidentally, Gillette's Castle in CT is a lot of fun to visit.

Interesting.
And yes, the curved pipe is more visually striking than a straight pipe.

[shanejayell]

As a long time fan, I'm rather dreading it. On the other hand, it DOES have Downey so it may at least be a good romp....

[Charles RB]

Moriarty only appears in one story. He was created as a way to get rid of Holmes because Doyle was quite sick of the character.


One of the Doctor Who comic writers made a point that the only reason we think of Moriarty as important is because "he's been in a million Holmes films - and how many of them were any good?".

(He then had the Master beat up Moriarty.)

[JamesRitcheyIII]

I'd read everything--even Arnold Drake's excellent 'non-canon' magazine--by the time I was 15. Oddly, there's a scene straight out of the Drake thing in the trailer--the boxing ring. I pretty much just assume Holmes movie adaptations are gonna stink--that way I'm never disappointed. Since both Nicholas Meyer and Billy Wilder have established a precedent of quality 'non-canon' versions, I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.

[Pól Rua]

I'd read everything--even Arnold Drake's excellent 'non-canon' magazine--by the time I was 15. Oddly, there's a scene straight out of the Drake thing in the trailer--the boxing ring. I pretty much just assume Holmes movie adaptations are gonna stink--that way I'm never disappointed. Since both Nicholas Meyer and Billy Wilder have established a precedent of quality 'non-canon' versions, I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.

I liked Meyer's Holmes, but I thought Billy Wilder had Holmes as too much of an addle-headed know-nothing, wandering around in a daze and being led about by the nose by his brother, Mycroft, played by a horribly miscast Christopher Lee.

[dupont2005]

now that monk is done i have an urge to watch that old sherlock holmes show. i am excited about the movie too. i also am a robert downey jr. fan and am not hung up on being faithful to the property as long as the movie is fun.

[Nick Soapdish]

One of the Doctor Who comic writers made a point that the only reason we think of Moriarty as important is because "he's been in a million Holmes films - and how many of them were any good?".

(He then had the Master beat up Moriarty.)

Without a Clue was good.

I think that I'm with the rest in being kinda interested in the movie, but it doesn't look like a Sherlock Holmes movie.

[NickThompson]

I'm no Holmes expert, but the impression I got was that it less strays from the source and more emphasises a part of the source that isn't played up much?

[Gail Simone]

It looks godawful.

I have been watching every Jeremy Brett episode and it's killing me to think this portrayal might become the one most people are aware of (Robert Downey, Jr.).

[lonewolf23k]

I'm no Holmes expert, but the impression I got was that it less strays from the source and more emphasises a part of the source that isn't played up much?

That's the impression I'm getting. We're so used to the sanitized, nearly cartoonish version of Sherlock Holmes, that we've all forgotten that in the original stories, Holmes wasn't just an intellectual detective, he was also a formidable martial artist who is strong enough to bend an iron poker with his bare hands — and unbend it again afterwards, the harder task.

[rick]

I'm no Holmes expert, but the impression I got was that it less strays from the source and more emphasises a part of the source that isn't played up much?

That impression would be incorrect.

Granted it's the impression the film makers want you to have, but it just isn't the case.

[Gail Simone]

That's the impression I'm getting. We're so used to the sanitized, nearly cartoonish version of Sherlock Holmes, that we've all forgotten that in the original stories, Holmes wasn't just an intellectual detective, he was also a formidable martial artist who is strong enough to bend an iron poker with his bare hands — and unbend it again afterwards, the harder task.

He just unbent it, someone else bent it in the first place. ;)

Holmes was an extremely good boxer, an excellent shot, very good at stick fighting, and was trained in (if memory serves) "baritsu" which seems to be a misspelling of the actual art, "Bartitsu." That's how he defeated Moriarty at the Falls.

But he was also fastidious about his personal appearance and hygiene, so him running about sweaty and filthy looks a little weird.

[Major Comma]

Gail ,
aside from his fight with Moriarty at the Falls, wasnt his use of martial arts or his boxing skills in the original stories RARE?
The producers of this film are saying that they can make this an action film, because Holmes had all these physical skills that were in the stories .
But he primarily used his intellect and his deductive skills as his main weapon didnt he?

[Vakanai]

Gail ,
aside from his fight with Moriarty at the Falls, wasnt his use of martial arts or his boxing skills in the original stories RARE?
The producers of this film are saying that they can make this an action film, because Holmes had all these physical skills that were in the stories .
But he primarily used his intellect and his deductive skills as his main weapon didnt he?

To be fair, there probably is going to be a lot of deduction and use of intellect in the film.
But that doesn't make for a real exciting preview, does it?

[KevinTBrown]

Based strictly on the previews: Looks like a fair, at best, action flick with loads of explosions, sexed up femme fatales, and naked male booty. But it ain't Holmes. No way, no how. Uh-uh.

And Gail nailed the character about him being "fastidious about his personal appearance and hygiene". Naked and tied up to a bed? No. Sweating it up in a boxing ring? Not unles he was undercover for some reason. Unshaven and dissheveled? Not even close.

The movie may be titled "Sherlock Holmes", but it could also be named "Fred Holmes" and it would be just as accurate.....

[Stressfactor]

Based strictly on the previews: Looks like a fair, at best, action flick with loads of explosions, sexed up femme fatales, and naked male booty. But it ain't Holmes. No way, no how. Uh-uh.

And Gail nailed the character about him being "fastidious about his personal appearance and hygiene". Naked and tied up to a bed? No. Sweating it up in a boxing ring? Not unles he was undercover for some reason. Unshaven and dissheveled? Not even close.

The movie may be titled "Sherlock Holmes", but it could also be named "Fred Holmes" and it would be just as accurate.....Bingo.

I mean, there are a few stories where Holmes operates in a disguse as a rough person and at least one story ("Hound of the Baskervilles") where he is camping out and therefore cannot live to his normal standards but Doyle was always careful to say that, as soon as possible, Holmes restored his usual, neat appearance.

Also, while Doyle's Watson always SAYS that Holmes could fight readers rarely ever SEE him in a fight. Indeed, he and Watson both carry guns from time to time but it is usually WATSON who ends up holding someone at gunpoint while Holmes explains the situation.

And it was also clear that Holmes was pretty much asexual. He had no interest in most women since he considered most of them intellectually his inferior. The one exception was Irene Adler and it was her MIND that he was impressed with. She beat him AT HIS OWN GAME -- discerining who he was, why he was there, and then even disguising herself and following him undetected -- THAT was what Holmes admired.

The other thing was that Adler herself was portrayed as a rather honorable woman -- and by that I mean she was portrayed as having the same sense of honor that Doyle attributed to the nobler classes -- the idea that her word was her bond and could be trusted as much as that of any well-born man. For the Victorian period that was some high praise! So the idea of her being portrayed in this movie as a sexual tease -- is really distilling the character down to a crude form.

[Spackling Compound]

I am waiting for the tshirts that say "Team Holmes", "Team Watson".....

[Cam63]

Holmes was an extremely good boxer, an excellent shot, very good at stick fighting, and was trained in (if memory serves) "baritsu" which seems to be a misspelling of the actual art, "Bartitsu." That's how he defeated Moriarty at the Falls.

...and here's a photo taken shortly before the event:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_ZP1S6Myct3U/Sc2vqkwOnKI/AAAAAAAAA4U/vcMIwy58JDk/3stooges[2].jpg

The guy in the middle apparently was an innocent bystander.

[Spiffy]

I choke on a lot of uneccesary "updates" to old culture, but for some reason this one intrigues me. I agree that a few things, like Holmes' hygiene, strike a weird chord, but others seem fine. The hat is just a prop, and I suppose we're likely to see it briefly (perhaps some joke about it being ridiculous and being set aside). The sexing up? Well, to be honest, I think Holmes kind of falls into one of those places in history, the Victorian Age, where its... possible. Honestly, it depends entirely on HOW its presented to us, and I don't think we know for sure how that's going to be.

Victorian times are known as a time when people, following the example of their ruler, got very uptight about such things, but at the same time there was a groundswell of naughtiness going on in the culture concurrent with that. It was all about public face and private indulgence. If the sexing up of Holmes and Adler follows that pattern, it would be fine. If it doesn't? Then it might seem ridiculous.

Watson being snarky is fine with me. I can't really see a down-side to it, unless it badly done.

[PatrickG]

Adler?

Darnit. Somehow, I thought McAdams was playing Watson's future wife, going with the Star Trek vibe where it's the "second in command" who's the romantic leading man. I think that formula works very well every time I've seen it because it allows the action lead to act as the juvenile wish fulfillment character. Also because extraordinary people are often alone and lack certain kinds of character depth as a byproduct of their excellence, whereas the more ordinary or restrained comrade of the action lead if often a wealth of depth.

[Corrina]

It seemed clear enough from the previews that it's Irene Adler, which would point to Holmes as a romantic interest.

Gail, I have to disagree on one point. There's no evidence that Holmes was a good shot. In fact, a number of times he tells Watson to bring *his* weapon, leading many Holmesians to speculate that Holmes wasn't a particularly good shot. That, combined with his habit of asking Watson to read his mail, led to more speculation that he was a bit near-sighted. Of course, you can also say that Holmes had Watson read the letters to gauge Watson's reaction. That's part of the fun of the Game.

I don't think Holmes ever boxed on screen. He did get into at least one fight when the villain of the short story sent some thugs after him--but that fight was off-screen. That might have been the Adventure of the Illustrious Client.

Mostly, Downey looks like he's having a bit too much fun. Holmes could enjoy himself and smile and laugh, and he pursued his profession with a great deal of intensity. But it was a Victorian/repressed kind of fun, far closer to Jeremy Brett's Holmes.

[Lester C.]

I haven't read Holmes since I was a kid so I'm looking forward to this film as it was the only trailer I liked when I saw Ninja Assassins. Then again I'm the kind of guy who proudly admits to seeing and loving Ninja Assassins so I'm not sure how much weight my opinion holds here.

[Charles RB]

Even if you snip Holmes out, the movie looks pretty naff. It looks one of the films that goes "this is brainless FUN, it's FUN, okay we've got flaws but FUN FUN FUN", and then turns out not to be any fun.

[Lester C.]

Even if you snip Holmes out, the movie looks pretty naff.

I'm afraid a further translation is needed for us Yanks. I can't tell if you are looking forward to it or not based on the last word of your sentence.

[Charles RB]

I'm afraid a further translation is needed for us Yanks.

"Crap".

.

[Cam63]

I'm afraid a further translation is needed for us Yanks. I can't tell if you are looking forward to it or not based on the last word of your sentence.

Something naff means it's poor quality, poorly thought out or fucked up.

...or crap.

[Lester C.]

Something naff means it's poor quality, poorly thought out or fucked up.

...or crap.

You could have just said my posting history then.:mad:

[KevinTBrown]

You could have just said my posting history then.:mad:

Way too easy.

[Libaax]

I have always liked RDJ atleast when he was working. But making an adventure,action hero of Holmes is as pointless,stupid as making Adrian Monk into an action hero that likes to box.

I have always enjoyed Holmes because he was a thinking man sort of detective, the way he works,his theories etc

Like C. Augustine Dupin you read for how he works. Not because he can box,shoot.


Plus he is Icon that doesnt need to be treated like this. He is the most filmed character, he doesnt need tricks this to be a popular film.

Plus remakes,films like this are getting tiring. No need to look of that fact and see it because its simple brainless fun. There are other movies for that.

[Matthew E]

I like Conan Doyle's original stories as much as anyone, but I don't mind if this movie goes in a different direction. If there's an unbreakable character in our culture, it's Holmes. We can afford to have the movie change stuff around a bit; could be good anyway.

By the way, for those who like Conan Doyle's takes on Holmes and Irene Adler, let me recommend the Irene Adler novels by Carole Nelson Douglas. (There are eight of them at the moment; the first one is Good Night, Mr. Holmes. Take particular note of the fifth and sixth, Chapel Noir and Castle Rouge, which contain Douglas's take on the Jack the Ripper mystery. She comes up with a fascinating idea for who the killer might have been. As the identity of the killer started to become revealed, over the course of the two books, I went through three stages: 1) "I don't get what's going on." 2) "That's who did it? That's not interesting at all!" 3) "That's an awesome idea!") There are parts of Douglas's writing style that grate on me a little bit after a while, but she has the characters nailed perfectly.

[Corrina]

Oh, it could be fun. Just not really Holmes.

Take the preview scene of Holmes tied to the bed. Now, I can stretch my imagination to say 'sure, there could be a reason why he got tied up to the bed.' But if someone walked in on Holmes that way, he wouldn't make a joke.

He'd merely say. "Ma'am, come over here and untie me at once, I have places to be." He'd just not even deign to acknowledge that the scene was awkward at all. He can be charming but, mostly, he doesn't bother and the arrogance bleeds through.

[AndrewCrossett]

I like Robert Downey, and this looks like it might have been a good action adventure movie, if only they hadn't tried to call it a Sherlock Holmes film.

It would have been better if they'd simply acknowledged the influence of Holmes on the movie, but just made it their own story with their own characters and gone from there.

As it is, it's the equivalent of putting out a Tomb Raider movie and calling it "Raiders of the Lost Ark: Kinda Like the Original, But With Big Boobs. Because People Love Raiders and They Love Big Boobs. Seriously, Come See Our Movie. Please?"

[KevinTBrown]

Acutally, if you look at the preview again (if you can bear to do so), it seems as if Jude Law is acting more "Holmes-like" while Downey is acting more "Watson-like".

[Night Swordsman]

I'm torn. Part of me wants to not like it, part of me can't wait to see it.

I'm going to watch it and turn off my purist self because Robert Downey Jr. always makes for a good time.

I am in the same boat. Holmes purist here as well, but i can enjoy what if's (i always had a soft spot for Young Sherlock Holmes, despite the errors).

I want to like it.

[Night Swordsman]

Oh, it could be fun. Just not really Holmes.

Take the preview scene of Holmes tied to the bed. Now, I can stretch my imagination to say 'sure, there could be a reason why he got tied up to the bed.' But if someone walked in on Holmes that way, he wouldn't make a joke.

He'd merely say. "Ma'am, come over here and untie me at once, I have places to be." He'd just not even deign to acknowledge that the scene was awkward at all. He can be charming but, mostly, he doesn't bother and the arrogance bleeds through.

<applauds> Perfectly well said. :smile:

[CutterMike]

Acutally, if you look at the preview again (if you can bear to do so), it seems as if Jude Law is acting more "Holmes-like" while Downey is acting more "Watson-like".

So, maybe they're playing it as "Watson is the real genius investigator who writes the stories puffing up Holmes so as to keep himself out of the cross-hairs."

I mean, we really only have HIS word for how the cases actually went down.

It could work...

I'm expecting to go see it with the same attitude as I went to see last summer's Star Trek: "It's not the Real Thing™, but it could be fun."

BTW -- Has anyone else read Quinn Fawcett's mysteries featuring Mycroft Holmes? As with the SH stories, they're written by his assistant -- who in this case is his secretary and does most of his legwork, although Mycroft DOES get out more than his brother ever suspected, apparently. I found them quite enjoyable.

[KevinTBrown]

I am in the same boat. Holmes purist here as well, but i can enjoy what if's (i always had a soft spot for Young Sherlock Holmes, despite the errors).

I want to like it.

I agree with you about Young Sherlock Holmes, including the errors.

[JamesRitcheyIII]

It seemed clear enough from the previews that it's Irene Adler, which would point to Holmes as a romantic interest.

Gail, I have to disagree on one point. There's no evidence that Holmes was a good shot. In fact, a number of times he tells Watson to bring *his* weapon, leading many Holmesians to speculate that Holmes wasn't a particularly good shot.


Inference would dictate that of the two, Watson would be the most accustomed to the use of firearms. Watson was a soldier, as well as a doctor--who was wounded in the leg in Afghanistan--and had lingering problems with it. Hence, the first words ever spoken to Watson by Holmes in A Study In Scarlet: "You've been in Afghanistan, I perceive.".


As far as the whole question of Irene Adler goes: While Holmes was a 'Monk' to logic, 'Brain-Work' was his sex. It was never 'cut and dry' in the few short stories that she's mentioned as to whether 'THE Woman' represented romantic/sexual interest or intellectual, because of how blended the behaviors were in Holmes' mind. Conan Doyle was a subtle and extremely underrated writer, and Holmes was based on a real person named Dr. Joseph Bell, so there's a great deal of Abnormal Psychology applied to him. Robert Louis Stevenson even commented in a letter to Conan Doyle about the similarity to Bell, whom he knew. His relationship with Adler was deliberately fuzzy, and led to all sorts of conjecture later on.

I'll give the movie a shot. I see nothing wrong with it being a deconstruction as long as the core of the character remains intact--and I don't judge films by two minutes of a trailer where they show the most extreme parts of it.

[EDIT] After the travesty of Young Sherlock Holmes regarding the canon, nothing could ever be worse.

[NickThompson]

Something naff means it's poor quality, poorly thought out or fucked up.

...or crap.

I think naff means more uncool than crap.

[Corrina]

Of course, Watson later claims to have a shoulder wound as well.

Leading to quite possibly one of the earliest cases of fanwanking among Holmesians as to Watson's wandering wound. I don't remember all the theories but one was that the bullet entered his shoulder and then his leg. Other ideas included Watson being injured at another time, particularly in an adventure with Holmes.

And then speculation moves on to how many wives Watson had. Possibly three, probably two.

*Yes, I do own a copy of Baring-Gould Annotated Sherlock Holmes, plus the new, very nice, Annotated version that came out a few years ago.

I bought the Baring-Gould two-volume set when I was twelve. Yes, my geekiness goes way back.

I have a couple of Mycroft adventures in my library though I can't remember the name of them. One of them included a hot-air balloon, I think. The only Holmes story that I loathe is one which concludes that he was Jack the Ripper. The others range from awful to pretty damn good. Carole Nelson Douglas' Irene Adler stories are good though I like the later ones in NYC the best, maybe for the unique setting.

Laurie King's Mary Russell stories are excellent, too, though sometimes she falls more in love with setting than plot. And you have to get past Sherlock Holmes becoming involved with a much younger woman.

And I have a special spot for Manly Wade Wellman's mix of Holmes and the War of the Worlds. Even if I don't like the affair with Mrs. Hudson.

[CutterMike]

(...)
And I have a special spot for Manly Wade Wellman's mix of Holmes and the War of the Worlds. Even if I don't like the affair with Mrs. Hudson.

I'm not familiar with that, and I'm a Wellman fan. What's the title?

[Corrina]

I'm not familiar with that, and I'm a Wellman fan. What's the title?

I wish I could remember. Damn. The book itself is hiding somewhere in storage.

Wait. Google to the rescue:

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/w/manly-wade-wellman/sherlock-holmes-war-of-worlds.htm

[CutterMike]

I wish I could remember. Damn. The book itself is hiding somewhere in storage.

Wait. Google to the rescue:

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/w/manly-wade-wellman/sherlock-holmes-war-of-worlds.htm

Cool! Thanks! I shall have to dig up a copy.

[DocAbsurd]

Sherlock Holmes' War of the Worlds was just reissued, along with a good batch of other non-canon books. Plenty of anthologies, interactive books, even a new puzzle book for the younger set. Plus a series of the Baker Street Irregulars and Enola Holmes, Sherlock and Mycroft's younger sister.

That being said, I'm cringing at the movie. I wouldn't mind if they had thrown Sherlock in a more steampunk setting, but they're going right against his strengths: his logic and his cunning.

Thing 2 is disgusted over Irene's portrayal, and Thing1 proclaimed loudly, 'Watson would NEVER pull a sword on Sherlock!'

[PatrickG]

Anybody read "Sherlock Holmes in Orbit"? I enjoy the Moriarty story without Moriarty, Holmes being contracted by St. Peter to find Jack the Ripper in Heaven, Holmes being hired by the time traveler to determine why the Titanic didn't sink...

But the one that stands out in my mind is, I believe, by Tribble creator David Gerrold. And it postulates that Holmes' deductions are all falsified. He's a man of VERY average intelligence. He's a California native who stole a time machine from UCLA. He solves crimes with the machine and then throws together wild stories of his deductions. Oh, and he basically forced Watson to write his memoirs under threat of death and then killed him anyway.

I remember actually being impressed with whatever the rationale was for why a murderous sociopath would pose as a Victorian detective but I seem to recall it being along the lines that no one from his own time would come looking for him under a cover like that, he could succeed at anything he wanted and then violently coerce people into constructing a (false) account of his life to throw off any time police or the actual scientists who developed the machine. Hiding in plain sight or whatever.

[Nick Soapdish]

So, maybe they're playing it as "Watson is the real genius investigator who writes the stories puffing up Holmes so as to keep himself out of the cross-hairs."

I mean, we really only have HIS word for how the cases actually went down.

It could work...

It worked pretty well in Without a Clue. But that was a straight comedy.

[Sally Sensational]

I think it looks like fun. But then, I adore Downey in a period piece, Restoration (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114272/)will always be one of my favorite movies although it was so horribly miscast that I couldn't begin to tell you why. Something about the earnest effort all those "wrong" actors put into trying to play their parts. The secondaries are great: McKellan as the butler, Thewlis as the Quaker friend.

Anyway, I ramble. I'd like to see this new Holmes.

Doyle was known for his subtlety, yes. But, like most in his era, he had to exercise a great deal of restraint with regard to certain subjects. Oddly, Holmes's drug issues did not have to be glossed over. But anything to do with sex did. Knowing what I do about both the Victorian period AND people who abuse drugs, I think it's completely possible that a man who craved cocaine, music, and intellectual stimulation as much as Holmes did would also have a deep "animal passion". He certainly had the wit and charm to talk the object of his desire into doing his bidding. Adler, on the other hand, also had the wit to turn the tables on HIM.

In short, I don't think Doyle's portrayal of Holmes casts him as asexual; I think it's just a proper Victorian series of stories written for a wide-audience serial format.

As to Watson, I'm glad to see him get a little more credit. I don't think Holmes would have kept him around if he had been the bumbler that so many portray him as. Sure, Holmes had a prodigious ego, and prodigious egos are known for keeping someone around to stroke them, but Holmes was also clearly capable of feeding his own conceit without help. Watson has to have been a useful second set of eyes attached to a useful, if not necessarily brilliant, mind.

In an ODD tidbit, the IMDB page for Restoration says that Anne Rice believes Downey would make a great Vampire Lestat . . .

[Stressfactor]

I just don't care for how the previews distill Adler down to JUST sex. I know, I know, it's just a preview and her portrayal in the movie could be more nuanced but the fact that the studio chooses THIS scene for her merely emphasizes that sterotype that sex and seduction are 'women's tools' -- as if they were women's ONLY tools -- when Adler was far MORE than that. She was no one's 'hootchie mama' and yet, when I see the trailer, THAT'S what she strikes me as.

Re: Watson -- in one of the stories (I forget which one at the moment), Holmes pretends to be dying of some esoteric disease. In reality he is faking but he needs to convince Watson so that Watson will spread the word and lure the man who tried to murder him into a confession. After all was said and done Watson asks Holmes why he had made him (Watson) stand across the room from him when he was faking and Holmes replies something to the effect of: "Do you think I have such little appreciation for your skills as a doctor that I knew you would be able to spot the fact that I wasn't really sick?" It was understated but very clear that Holmes DID have a lot of respect for Watson's skills in medicine and also a clear indication that Holmes thought Watson was a good doctor.

At other times he praised Watson's nerve in dangerous situtations. He counted on, and KNEW that Watson wouldn't loose his head.

[Corrina]

Doyle was known for his subtlety, yes. But, like most in his era, he had to exercise a great deal of restraint with regard to certain subjects. Oddly, Holmes's drug issues did not have to be glossed over. But anything to do with sex did.

This is not quite true.

Waston romanced a woman in Sign of the Four. There are several cases of women being in bad situations because of their lousy taste in men. The Adventures of Charles Augustus Milverton, and again, the Adventure of the Illustrious Client. The unsavory situations are right out in the open and, in the case of Watson's romance, kinda sweet.

Holmes makes many statements about how he simply doesn't understand woman, how he has no interest in them whatsoever beyond if they're involved in his cases, and as someone said earlier, it's not even clear if his interest in Adler was sexual. It seems to have been appreciation for her mental gifts more than anything else.

So, yes, I think Doyle deliberately made Holmes asexual, just as he did Mycroft, as part of his eccentricity, especially compared to the more normal attractions to the fair sex of Watson and several others in the stories that are on the page.

[Libaax]

Who is Mycroft ? I know Doyle for Holmes,his historical stories only so far.

[Corrina]

Who is Mycroft ? I know Doyle for Holmes,his historical stories only so far.

Mycroft is Holmes' brother. He's referenced quite frequently in later SF stories, most famously as the name of the computer in Heinlein's "The Moon is Harsh Mistress."

[Jbenn]

I just don't care for how the previews distill Adler down to JUST sex. I know, I know, it's just a preview and her portrayal in the movie could be more nuanced but the fact that the studio chooses THIS scene for her merely emphasizes that sterotype that sex and seduction are 'women's tools' -- as if they were women's ONLY tools -- when Adler was far MORE than that. She was no one's 'hootchie mama' and yet, when I see the trailer, THAT'S what she strikes me as.

The biggest problem I'm going to have is the idea of sexed-up Holmes and Adler. As many have pointed out already, it was Irene Adler's mind that impressed Holmes because she outsmarted him not her personal sexiness. And there is ZERO hint at all she was ever interested in him in any way (the one story she appears in has her getting married and saying that man was worth more than any one like her former lover the King of Bohemia...or something like that). Holmes was asexual to the extreme. Even when women seemed interested in him and Watson tried to play matchmaker (like Violet Hunter in "The Adventure of the Copper Beaches") Holmes either ignored or didn't pay attention.

As for Watson, its sad that the Nigel Bruce portrayal of him as a bumbling fool still is the predominant one (even for people who never saw the Rathbone/Bruce films) in the minds of many who are probably going to go see the Downey/Law film (I only wish the Jeremy Brett series could wash those movies away). In the C-D stories, Watson was a war veteran, a writer of some renown (remember he made Holmes "famous" through his stories - a nice piece of meta-fiction), he was a good shot (and usually carried a gun), an educated doctor, and a good-looking ladies man (he was the one who usually provided the "sex" in the canon stories - he even married the leading lady of "The Sign of Four").

To me this movie looks like a period action piece with the name of Sherlock Holmes slapped to it. Holmes was a man of action, a man of disguise, but most of all he was a man of observation. He watched and noticed things and then at the end he would put it all together (for Watson and the reader). Most of the short stories (and Valley of Fear, as well) have very little action. The basic reason Holmes said he took his "solution" of cocaine was because he was bored/inactivity.

[Vakanai]

It's a two minute preview showing all the extreme scenes to catch the masses. There's nothing to indicate that Holmes won't be using his deduction, or that he's acting more Watson-like. We're delving that into a movie that hasn't even come out yet trying to find out the flaws before hand.

I'm just going to take a wait and see attitude.

[Pól Rua]

There's no evidence that Holmes was a good shot.
He did pick out 'V-R' in bulletholes on the wall of his flat.


By the way, for those who like Conan Doyle's takes on Holmes and Irene Adler, let me recommend the Irene Adler novels by Carole Nelson Douglas. (There are eight of them at the moment; the first one is Good Night, Mr. Holmes. Take particular note of the fifth and sixth, Chapel Noir and Castle Rouge, which contain Douglas's take on the Jack the Ripper mystery. She comes up with a fascinating idea for who the killer might have been. As the identity of the killer started to become revealed, over the course of the two books, I went through three stages: 1) "I don't get what's going on." 2) "That's who did it? That's not interesting at all!" 3) "That's an awesome idea!") There are parts of Douglas's writing style that grate on me a little bit after a while, but she has the characters nailed perfectly.
This appears relevant to my interests.


So, maybe they're playing it as "Watson is the real genius investigator who writes the stories puffing up Holmes so as to keep himself out of the cross-hairs."
I mean, we really only have HIS word for how the cases actually went down.
It could work...
And it did. But it's been done.


And I have a special spot for Manly Wade Wellman's mix of Holmes and the War of the Worlds. Even if I don't like the affair with Mrs. Hudson.
Sherlock Holmes, War of the Worlds, Manly Wade Wellman?
These are a few of my favourite things...


Who is Mycroft ? I know Doyle for Holmes,his historical stories only so far.
Mycroft is Holmes' brother. Older, and with a sharper deductive mind, he is restricted in being morbidly obese, while suffering to a greater extent Holmes' malaise with the world being 'intinteresting' and 'too easy', and as a result, being terribly unmotivated to do anything really.

[rick]

*Yes, I do own a copy of Baring-Gould Annotated Sherlock Holmes, plus the new, very nice, Annotated version that came out a few years ago.

I bought the Baring-Gould two-volume set when I was twelve. Yes, my geekiness goes way back.



Me too, me too and me too.

I also have that same Baring-Gold two volume oversized set, I got mine when I was 13 and yep, our geekiness is well rooted.


Still though, while I expect this film to have pretty much nothing to do at all with "my" Holmes, I'm still looking forward to it.

I doubt it will be as good as "Murder by Decree", but it will have to be a hell of a lot better than, "Without a Clue".

[rick]

Who is Mycroft ? I know Doyle for Holmes,his historical stories only so far.


In the original stories, Mycroft plays a large part in "The Adventure of the Greek Interpeter" and is mentioned in three or four other stories.

[Corrina]

Me too, me too and me too.

I also have that same Baring-Gold two volume oversized set, I got mine when I was 13 and yep, our geekiness is well rooted.


Still though, while I expect this film to have pretty much nothing to do at all with "my" Holmes, I'm still looking forward to it.

I doubt it will be as good as "Murder by Decree", but it will have to be a hell of a lot better than, "Without a Clue".

My B-G set is sitting on the shelf above me. :)

Christopher Plummer is a very underrated Holmes and the movie was good, though the movie could have been better. Or maybe I'm misremembering, it's been years. I do remember being disappointed in James Mason's Watson.

I liked Without a Clue. I didn't take it seriously and I love Michael Caine. :)

As I said, I like Downey. And I don't expect this version to be authentic. But it might be a good movie anyway.

[Corrina]

In the original stories, Mycroft plays a large part in "The Adventure of the Greek Interpeter" and is mentioned in three or four other stories.

"Occasionally, he is the British Government."

So there's speculation (well-founded) that Mycroft was basically the chief of Intelligence or spy master for England.

[fireSTRIKE!]

for anyone into Basil Rathbone's Holmes, with the exception of The Woman In Green, TCM will be doing a Holmes marathon in release order on Christmas day and the day after, along with a few other Holmes films portrayed by others...

can't imagine why TWIG is being neglected... it can't be because it's a case involving victim's fingers being cut off... a mutilation thing that TCM finds objectionable, possibly?...

[Vakanai]

for anyone into Basil Rathbone's Holmes, with the exception of The Woman In Green, TCM will be doing a Holmes marathon in release order on Christmas day and the day after, along with a few other Holmes films portrayed by others...

can't imagine why TWIG is being neglected... it can't be because it's a case involving victim's fingers being cut off... a mutilation thing that TCM finds objectionable, possibly?...

I actually have quite a few of those one DVD, The Woman in Green included.
I've heard the the Rathbone Holmes gets some flack these days, but I've thoroughly enjoyed them. Well, there were a couple of lame ones, but most seemed good.

[fireSTRIKE!]

I actually have quite a few of those one DVD, The Woman in Green included.
I've heard the the Rathbone Holmes gets some flack these days, but I've thoroughly enjoyed them. Well, there were a couple of lame ones, but most seemed good.

Rathbone was accepted and good for his time as is Jeremy Brett for the 90's... both stand the test of time... I likes 'em both... Holmes for the Hollywood-like feel and Brett for the authentic feel...

[Vakanai]

Rathbone was accepted and good for his time as is Jeremy Brett for the 90's... both stand the test of time... I likes 'em both... Holmes for the Hollywood-like feel and Brett for the authentic feel...

True. Though Brett did his Holmes work in the 80's.

Also, I think he may have been the oldest actor to play Holmes to date, but don't quote me on that.

I've only managed to see the Brett stuff this year. The work is good. Possibly the best Holmes adaptation to date!

But I still have a soft spot for this fellow:
http://asg.animatedheroes.com/albums/basil/Basil_in_style.sized.jpg

[fireSTRIKE!]

True. Though Brett did his Holmes work in the 80's.

Also, I think he may have been the oldest actor to play Holmes to date, but don't quote me on that.

I've only managed to see the Brett stuff this year. The work is good. Possibly the best Holmes adaptation to date!

But I still have a soft spot for this fellow:
http://asg.animatedheroes.com/albums/basil/Basil_in_style.sized.jpg

I doubt if Brett's work and portrayal will EVER be surpassed and besides, the volume of Holmes adaptations that he did in his lifetime was impressive...

[Vakanai]

I doubt if Brett's work and portrayal will EVER be surpassed and besides, the volume of Holmes adaptations that he did in his lifetime was impressive...

I'd like to think all things can be surpassed, and that we'll see better and better work as time goes by.

But yes, the sheer amount of appearances he did as Holmes is most impressive!

[JCAll]

I fully expect a giant robot spider to make an appearance at some point, ala Wild Wild West.

[FeminineMystique]

Moriarty only appears in one story. He was created as a way to get rid of Holmes because Doyle was quite sick of the character.

Retroactively, Moriarty was inserted as the mastermind in the Valley of Fear--(a story written after The Final Problem but take place in canon before it) though he never appears on-screen, he's simply referenced. He's also referenced in the Adventure of the Empty House as quite dead.

I actually think the villain in Sign of the Four is a lot more interesting. He and his henchmen with the poison darks get killed off, though. There are explosions in the climax of that story.

It's funny how Moriarty has gained a reputation as Holmes' arch nemesis yet he really didn't do much to earn it.

[Stressfactor]

I think people latched onto Moriarty because they liked the symetry of it.

As Lex Luthor said in the first episode of "Smallville": "Every hero needs a good foil" (one of the best jokes of the series, EVER as far as I'm concerned)

But when you have a hero who seems, ultimately,, unfallible; a hero who is far about average humanity in some way (or multiple ways) then, eventually, people believe to think that there is no one who can really give said hero a run for his/her money and it takes some of the spice out of things.

What Moriarty provided on paper was someone who was Holmes' equal... and scarily possibly even his superior. The way Doyle conveyed this to the readers was to place into the story the fact that Holmes was a bit intimidated by Moriarty. If a hero like Holmes can be intimidated by this guy then he MUST be badass!

People bought into it and embraced Moriarty as a criminal genius simply because 'every hero needs a good foil' and Doyle managed to convice readers that Moriarty was someone who really could go head-to-head with Holmes and win! Also, years passed between Holmes' 'death' and the character's resurrection and so people got used to the idea that Moriarty had seriously been badass enough that Holmes didn't actually BEAT him without the cost of his own life.

[Vakanai]

I fully expect a giant robot spider to make an appearance at some point, ala Wild Wild West.

Now now, we know that just because there's more action in this than what you would expect, or that the chances are decently high this will be Holmes in name only (although it remains to be seen, and may still be relatively close to the spirit of the character come release), doesn't mean they're going to scifi it up. I fully expect it will not have a stupid robot spider, or anything else of the sort. We're just trying to make it fail now.