Whats up with Ultimate Thor?

[wishpig]

I freakin loved the Ultimates... ya know... till Loeb got a hold of them.

Reading that Miller is now writing Ultimate Avengers I kinda wanna get back in... but when I looked it up on wikipedia I noticed NO MENTION OF THOR!?

So whats up with him? Is he dead or somethin?

[DKR]

Well in Ultimatum he sacrificed himself to save both Cap and Valkyire from Hela in the land of the dead. So he's either dead or still alive and just remains in the land of the dead. Didn't really matter though since Valkyrie was killed by Magneto anyway.

[VRaptorX]

Actually I think valkyrie is listed amongst the living.

However.....I will state this once again. How the heck is there a land of the dead? think about it. We want everyone to feel bad that people died....but we know Thor will come back from it. How do you make it seem believable that no one else will come back? I mean they all have to be there right? So what, the rest of all the dead will just sit around on lawn chairs and say, "yeah I don't feel like going back to Earth right now"

[spacepatate15]

About thor,they is the russian incarnate of thor from ultimates 2 who will appear in the third arc,the arc where the avengers fight dracula.


Well in Ultimatum he sacrificed himself to save both Cap and Valkyire from Hela in the land of the dead. So he's either dead or still alive and just remains in the land of the dead. Didn't really matter though since Valkyrie was killed by Magneto anyway.

You are correct for one part,and wrong for the second part.

Even if barbara got murdered apparently by magneto,new ultimates feature a thor chick who is barbara,so as a result she is still alive and now serve on the public ultimates team.

And thor is coming back as well,but for the ultimates only.The asgard storyline from new ultimates feature loki and thor do something to escape hell,so he will probably join the fight alongside the ultimates.

[Gabe De Los Muertos]

I think Loeb is going to bring Thor back when he starts his next run. In the meantime I heard Millar was going to use the fake Thor.

[giovedi]

Actually I think valkyrie is listed amongst the living.

However.....I will state this once again. How the heck is there a land of the dead? think about it. We want everyone to feel bad that people died....but we know Thor will come back from it. How do you make it seem believable that no one else will come back? I mean they all have to be there right? So what, the rest of all the dead will just sit around on lawn chairs and say, "yeah I don't feel like going back to Earth right now"

I think the creators tried to make a "dead means dead" scenario.

Not sure about Valkryie, honestly... Didn't Magneto collapse a ceiling on her? She could just be unconscious, too, I guess.

[Don Yoyo]

Nah, Magneto slit her throat with her own blade. A metal blade against a master of magnetism. I can understand why Tony had to go with his armor and why Cyclops would forget about his visors (that I always thought were plastic), but a metal sword? Come on!

[VRaptorX]

I think the creators tried to make a "dead means dead" scenario.


If you know exactly where people go when they die, and you have a way to get em out, how do you expect anyone to take that dead means dead seriously? Logically you could bring back every single dead person from the entire history of man. I mean I can't seriously expect the other dead heroes wouldn't want back in or that the living heroes wouldn't want them back. And same with villains.

[Prodigy55]

Nah, Magneto slit her throat with her own blade. A metal blade against a master of magnetism. I can understand why Tony had to go with his armor and why Cyclops would forget about his visors (that I always thought were plastic), but a metal sword? Come on!

Yeah but she still cut off his arm, lol.

[DrDoom616]

Nah, Magneto slit her throat with her own blade.

erm... no... he 'nicked' her with the blade, there was no slitting of the throat at all and she is very much alive.

[CapnCaveman]

I freakin loved the Ultimates... ya know... till Loeb got a hold of them.

Reading that Miller is now writing Ultimate Avengers I kinda wanna get back in... but when I looked it up on wikipedia I noticed NO MENTION OF THOR!?

So whats up with him? Is he dead or somethin?

What's up with Umtimate Thor? Well Loeb completely ruined him, then killed him. I hope that Loebimate Thor stays dead and Ultimate Thor returns.

[spacepatate15]

What's up with Umtimate Thor? Well Loeb completely ruined him, then killed him. I hope that Loebimate Thor stays dead and Ultimate Thor returns.That would be nice,but wont happen.

I know,loeb arrange himself to do tons of mess using the less-good roster and shitty caracterisations while breaking the rules,while millar respect the rule and use the opportunity to make some cool shits.

[Joe Franklin]

Frank Cho is drawing Ultimate Thor for loeb's New Ultimates run.

Here is one of Cho's New Ultimates covers.

http://apesandbabes.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/thor-frank-cho-b.gif

[missmeliss]

If you know exactly where people go when they die, and you have a way to get em out, how do you expect anyone to take that dead means dead seriously? Logically you could bring back every single dead person from the entire history of man. I mean I can't seriously expect the other dead heroes wouldn't want back in or that the living heroes wouldn't want them back. And same with villains.

in addition to that Thor is a "God" and if anyone here knows anything about Norse Mythology they would obviously know that Valhalla is the Norse/Germanic Underworld. If you're going to use the logic that Marvel uses than ofcourse Thor would go to his own Underworld. And because Thor's a "God" he can basically bend the rules of death and all that good stuff.

the weird thing is how Cap ended up there and why just him. Norse ancestory? Loeb's crazies? who knows. well, prob Millar but so far nothing outta him.

[VRaptorX]

Which begs the question, is there a separate afterlife for each religion in the Ultimate U?

[missmeliss]

I would say yes. Look at Mephisto's realm. I doubt it has anything to do with Norse mythology. Plus if Marvel does that it keeps itself from being limited or choosing what 'religion' is true and what is false.

Other examples might be able to be found in Doc. Strange storylines. I've never read them nor do I totally understand what's up with Doc. Strange but it seems like a good place to look around. ya know?

[hypkin]

what happend to the cool axe-like mjolnir?

[Gabe De Los Muertos]

what happend to the cool axe-like mjolnir?

Stupid Loeb decided that he wanted to write 616 Thor.

[NickGuy]

what happend to the cool axe-like mjolnir?

i was happy to see brick on a stick mjolnir myself =\

[Taiso]

Stupid Loeb decided that he wanted to write 616 Thor.

I hope this never actually happens.

And not because I want to hate on Loeb. I'm not about dogpiling.

But Loeb's Ultimate Thor is a travesty.

I already have 616 Thor if I want an honest to goodness, thunder and lightning wielding Norse god.

Maybe 616 Thor didn't have his own title at the time (I really dont' recall the release schedules), but Loeb didn't need to convert UU Thor into MU Thor. Ultimate Thor worked fine when Millar was writing him.

I'm also dispapointed that MU Mjolnir became his hammer of choice and that Thor has a 'weapons closet' to choose from.

I like MU Mjolnir just fine...for MU Thor.

UU Thor was this cool eco-hippie that seemed different from anybody else, sort of 'above it all', without having to cop a medieval attitude. It made him different, special and unique from MU Thor, who I am a VERY big fan of...in the MU.

All I can do is hope it's good. And if it's not, I won't be buying it beyond the first issue.

And as to my original point of Loeb writing 616 Thor....Loeb already proved he doesn't have a handle on the 616 or how to properly respect the characters. Until he learns some subtlety, I'd rather he unceremoniously fumble in the less important UU for now.

[Punchdrunk]

My understanding - and I can't locate the source for this - is that Loeb wanted to write this Thor in Hel storyline with 616 Thor.
JMS had the character locked up at the time with Siege on the horizon so there was no way Loeb was going to get a crack at him for some time.
So he asked to do his 616 storyline in the UU and - voila.

[Taiso]

My understanding - and I can't locate the source for this - is that Loeb wanted to write this Thor in Hel storyline with 616 Thor.
JMS had the character locked up at the time with Siege on the horizon so there was no way Loeb was going to get a crack at him for some time.
So he asked to do his 616 storyline in the UU and - voila.

Then shame on Marvel for catering to a writer's whims over preserving the continuity.

As an independent comic book about some iteration of Thor, I'd have no problem with this portrayal.

But Marvel and DC are bigger than the people that work for them. There is a mythology and a tapestry that needs to be honored. Some writers know how to tell the story they want to tell without having to put their characters through badly. hastily executed metamorphoses (metamorphii?).

[Punchdrunk]

Right there- you summed up most of the trouble being hashed out around Sentry, Red Hulk, the Ultimate Universe and a litany of other woes.

Continuity vs Writer freedom - tough balancing act.

Check out my New Really New Ultimate Valkyrie Theory thread on my fix for the Ulty Thor situation.

[Joe Franklin]

Then shame on Marvel for catering to a writer's whims over preserving the continuity.


How old are you, and how long have you been collecting comic books hard core?

I'm 37 myself, and didn't start collecting comics books hard core until 1988. Let me assure you, the continuity in the last 20 years in both Marvel and DC has changed multiple times over in the last 20 years since I have been collecting comic books. I can't speak for the years before 1988 as far as continuity goes, but in the last 20 years, it's been a clusterfock for both Marvel and DC. This is hardly anything new.

[Punchdrunk]

Yeah, I'm 45 and took a break but came back during Ultimates 2.

There have been major contradictions even since then.

All the tpb and back issue stuff I got confirms your point of view

[Taiso]

How old are you, and how long have you been collecting comic books hard core?

I'm 37 myself, and didn't start collecting comics books hard core until 1988. Let me assure you, the continuity in the last 20 years in both Marvel and DC has changed multiple times over in the last 20 years since I have been collecting comic books. I can't speak for the years before 1988 as far as continuity goes, but in the last 20 years, it's been a clusterfock for both Marvel and DC. This is hardly anything new.

I'm 39 and have been reading since I was 6, so for 33 years. I fell out of superheroes for about a ten year stretch in the 90s, except for the odd title, here and there. I mostly walked away because afer the Spider-clone nonsense, I just couldn't take it anymore. The early-mid 90s were just AWFUL for superhero books.

I know that creative freedom versus editorial control has always been a problem. I'm well aware of that fact.

But the onus is on both the editors and the creators to be people that respect the mythology of those universes, to understand those trappings and craft stories that, even when innovating and 'taking chances', remain faithful to those entities and to what the fans expect and will tolerate.

These problems have been around a long time, as you say. 'Clusterfuck' is an apt term to describe it. And forums like this are places where we can take them to task for it.

Not to rail on them as people or to generalize them as 'bad writers/artists.' But to criticize the specific works with which we take issue.

I like Loeb as a writer. He just needs someone over him to tell him when the ideas he's hurling aren't sticking to the wall. That requires that authority person to care about the mythology as much, if not moreso, than the creator him/herself.