Switzerland Ban Minarets From Mosques

[king mob]

In a rather shocking vote which reeks of Islamophobia, the Swiss have voted in a referendum to ban the building of minarets in mosques across the country. This is obviously causing many across Europe to be rightfully disgusted by the vote.


Religious leaders across the world have criticised Switzerland's referendum vote to ban the building of minarets.

The Vatican joined Muslim figureheads from Indonesia and Egypt, as well as Switzerland, in denouncing the vote as a blow to religious freedom.

France's FM Bernard Kouchner expressed shock at the ban which, he said, showed "intolerance" and should be reversed.

But European right-wing groups welcomed the result, calling for other countries to take similar measures.

More than 57.5% of Swiss voters and 22 out of 26 cantons - or provinces - voted in favour of the ban on Sunday.

The proposal had been put forward by the Swiss People's Party (SVP), the largest party in parliament, which said minarets were a sign of Islamisation.

'Expression of intolerance'

The Vatican on Monday endorsed a statement by the conference of Swiss Bishops criticising the vote for heightening "the problems of cohabitation between religions and cultures".

Egypt's Grand Mufti Ali Gomaa described the ban as an insult to the feelings of the Muslim community in Switzerland and elsewhere.

unday's surprise result also prompted dismay from secular leaders in Europe.

"I am a bit shocked by this decision," Mr Kouchner told France's RTL radio on Monday. "It is an expression of intolerance and I detest intolerance.

"I hope the Swiss will reverse this decision quickly."

But Marine Le Pen, the deputy-leader of France's far-right National Front, praised the outcome, and said France should now hold a wider referendum on multiculturalism.

"The elites should stop denying the hopes and fears of European peoples who, without opposing religious freedom, reject ostentatious symbols forced on them by politico-religious Muslim groups, often verging on provocation," she was quoted as saying by Agence France Presse.

In Belgium, Italy and the Netherlands, anti-immigrant movements called on their own governments to debate similar measures.

"What can be done in Switzerland, can be done here," said Geert Wilders, the head of the Freedom Party in the Netherlands.

Meanwhile Roberto Calderoli, a member of Italy's Northern League, which is part of the country's ruling coalition, said: "Switzerland is sending us a clear signal: yes to bell towers, no to minarets."

In recent years, countries across Europe have been debating how best to integrate Muslim populations.

France focused on the headscarf, while in Germany there was controversy over plans to build one of Europe's largest mosques.

Government ignored

The vote is very bad news for the Swiss government which fears unrest among the Muslim community, says the BBC's Imogen Foulkes in Bern.

The Swiss government had opposed the ban, saying it would harm Switzerland's image, particularly in the Muslim world.

Voters worried about rising immigration - and with it the rise of Islam - had ignored the government's advice, our correspondent adds.

The government said it accepted the decision, and that the construction of new minarets would no longer be permitted.

Justice Minister Eveline Widmer-Schlumpf said: "Concerns [about Islamic fundamentalism] have to be taken seriously.

"However, a ban on the construction of new minarets is not a feasible means of countering extremist tendencies."

She sought to reassure Swiss Muslims, saying the decision was "not a rejection of the Muslim community, religion or culture".

'Major problems'

Switzerland is home to some 400,000 Muslims and has just four minarets.

After Christianity, Islam is the most widespread religion in Switzerland, but it remains relatively hidden.

There are unofficial Muslim prayer rooms, and planning applications for new minarets are almost always refused.

Supporters of a ban claimed that allowing minarets would represent the growth of an ideology and a legal system - Sharia law - which are incompatible with Swiss democracy.

But others say the referendum campaign incited hatred. On Thursday the Geneva mosque was vandalised for the third time during the campaign, according to local media.

Amnesty International said the vote violated freedom of religion and would probably be overturned by the Swiss supreme court or the European Court of Human Rights.

The president of Zurich's Association of Muslim Organisations, Tamir Hadjipolu, told the BBC: "This will cause major problems because during this campaign mosques were attacked, which we never experienced in 40 years in Switzerland.

"Islamaphobia has increased intensively."

Sunday's referendum was held after the SVP collected 100,000 signatures from voters within 18 months calling for a vote.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8385893.stm

Sadly this has given hope to many far-right parties across Europe, however those working within EU countries can't force such a ban due to EU law, but they can carry on making people's lives misery.

[FeminineMystique]

:frown: I'd heard about this a little while ago, that they wanted to try this. Sad to hear it went ahead. What harm does it do anyone if a building has a Minaret? Who does it offend? *Sighs*

[the4thpip]

Either they have no "equal protection" clause in their constitution, or churches should not be allowed to be built with steeples, either.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Yeah, that's way over the line. That's functionally giving muslims the middle finger, culturally. I cannot think of a single pragmatic reason to outlaw them. Switzerland is just having trouble growing the hell up, seeing their cultural makeup change.

[K-DoG7p7]

And here is the cover to a (usless and boring) norwegian newspaper today

http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/928/928718/9287187/jpg/active/320x.jpg

hihihihihihi

[The Cool Thatguy]

And here is the cover to a (usless and boring) norwegian newspaper today

http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/928/928718/9287187/jpg/active/320x.jpg

hihihihihihi

Uhh...what? Please to explain.

[K-DoG7p7]

its the swiss flag... with a bit of a nazi twist :P

[Jbenn]

I deplore this vote and think it's a lousy idea that'll eventually be overturned (I dislike the French trying to ban headscarves thing - a supposedly proudly secular state should keep out of it) however this quote got me...
Egypt's Grand Mufti Ali Gomaa described the ban as an insult to the feelings of the Muslim community in Switzerland and elsewhere.

I really think some leaders from certain Muslim countries should not be commenting on this. Particularly countries like Egypt, which tend to think of as moderate, but where minority Coptic Christians - who have been there for two thousand years - are almost always treated as second class citizens, constantly threatened with violence (several dozen have been killed in the last several years), have young Coptic women kidnapped and forced to marry Muslims and convert (and of course any child must be raised a Muslim), have to petition the government if a Muslim wants to become a Christian (the opposite is not true) and sometimes have their lives threatened if they convert, and of course there's the law (still never repealed as far as I know) where Christians have to get express written consent from the President of Egypt to open any kind of new church building (the law does not apply to new mosques). All these things are happening while the Grand Mufti complains about the rights of Muslims in Switzerland to build minarets. Hypocrisy, much?

[mikekerr3]

Yeah, that's way over the line. That's functionally giving muslims the middle finger, culturally. I cannot think of a single pragmatic reason to outlaw them. Switzerland is just having trouble growing the hell up, seeing their cultural makeup change.

Maybe they don't want their culture to change, or at least in that way.

Its a dumb law though.

[Spike-X]

:frown: I'd heard about this a little while ago, that they wanted to try this. Sad to hear it went ahead. What harm does it do anyone if a building has a Minaret? Who does it offend? *Sighs*
Anyone who is "offended" by the sight of a particular architectural feature (of all things to be getting butthurt about) deserves to be.

[Spike-X]

All these things are happening while the Grand Mufti complains about the rights of Muslims in Switzerland to build minarets. Hypocrisy, much?

With this, I also agree.

[FeminineMystique]

its the swiss flag... with a bit of a nazi twist :P

Godwins Law holds no sway here:tongue:


Anyone who is "offended" by the sight of a particular architectural feature (of all things to be getting butthurt about) deserves to be.

Absolutely. Banning minarets because they offend people who can't deal with people having a different faith is like bringing back segregation, so that racists don't have to be "Offended"

[Charles RB]

What the hell was the point of having a referandum on the tops of fucking buildings? When there were only four of the damn things in Switzerland already, so we're hardly talking about a pandemic?

[spoon_jenkins]

Yup. This is shameful, inexcusable bigotry. And like typical bigots, they offer lame rationalizations. If they wanted to fight sexism from Shariah, then they'd simply tailor the law to that goal. Instead, they passed a referendum that's basically aimed at all Muslims no matter how enlightened.

Every aspect of this story reeks of BS. I read one Swiss person claim that since minarets aren't mentioned in Quran (I don't know if that's true), Muslims don't have any grounds to complain. By that logic, Swiss Christians should allow people who are hostile to Christians to veto church designs.

I think the real issue is that a minaret is a prominent, noticeable symbol of a Muslim presence. It's not the type of thing that people who want a minority to remain silent and servile, rather than proud, like to see.


(I dislike the French trying to ban headscarves thing - a supposedly proudly secular state should keep out of it)
I think that probably was an example of mixed motives. I don't doubt that people might view keeping religious symbols out of schools as a way to promote secularism (although as you say, a secular state should really stay out of it), in practice religions have apparently been treated unequally. Headscarves get banned but large crosses are determined to be unobtrusive enough to be immune from the ban.

[Forseti]

That's what happens when you have referendums.

I don't think the architecture of a minaret is what they voted against, the issue is probably what they're used for. I've lived very near a mosque for a while a few years ago, and the call to prayer did really annoy me at times. Almost as much as church bells.

[Adam C]

That's what happens when you have referendums.

I don't think the architecture of a minaret is what they voted against, the issue is probably what they're used for. I've lived very near a mosque for a while a few years ago, and the call to prayer did really annoy me at times. Almost as much as church bells.

If that's the case I wouldn't notice based on the reasons that proponents of the ban have given.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/search/Result.html?siteSect=882&ty=st&sid=7777264


People's Party parliamentarian Ulrich Schlüer, who is co-president of the campaign committee, argues that the construction of minarets will create problems in communities and threaten the peace. [...]

"The minaret has nothing to do with religion: it is not mentioned in the Koran or other important Islamic texts. It just symbolises a place where Islamic law is established," Schlüer told swissinfo.

A quick look at the posters put up by supporters of the initiative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minaret_controversy_in_Switzerland#Poster_campaign ) also reinforces the xenophobic attitudes that motivated this as do further statements by supporters of this initiative (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8381274.stm). It's pure xenophobia.


Either they have no "equal protection" clause in their constitution, or churches should not be allowed to be built with steeples, either.

Apparently popular initiatives that amend the constitution are not subject to judicial review.

[Sabrinaset]

Well, if the Swiss are going to take the minarets down from the tops of these mosques, let's at least be functional and throw Roman Polanski on top of them! :redface:

[Weetomuncher]

I get annoyed that Muslims are constantly complaining about unfair treatment and discrimination when many Islamic countries have tight ristrictions on religion, where religious practice and promotion are tightly controlled to the extent that practicing other religions can lead to severe punishments, especially for former Muslims who have converted to Christianity or another religion.

I don't see why Christian nations have to pander to religions that don't respect the beliefs of others and while I don't mind moderate Muslims practicing their beliefs, I don't want them to feel that they have a status that allows them to dictate the beliefs and practices of Christians in Christian countries.

Minarets aren't a problem on their own but Swiss Muslims should be happy that they don't face the dangers of Christians in the Islamic world.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I get annoyed that Muslims are constantly complaining about unfair treatment and discrimination when many Islamic countries have tight ristrictions on religion, where religious practice and promotion are tightly controlled to the extent that practicing other religions can lead to severe punishments, especially for former Muslims who have converted to Christianity or another religion.

I don't see why Christian nations have to pander to religions that don't respect the beliefs of others and while I don't mind moderate Muslims practicing their beliefs, I don't want them to feel that they have a status that allows them to dictate the beliefs and practices of Christians in Christian countries.

Minarets aren't a problem on their own but Swiss Muslims should be happy that they don't face the dangers of Christians in the Islamic world.

Discrimination somewhere doesn't justify the same elsewhere.

Hell, most muslims who are not living in those countries have no influence in said countries, usually for a reason.

I really get tired of people thinking that muslims are like Catholics, IE they have one religion with a top down command structure. That's now how they roll, and never has been.

[Charles RB]

I think the real issue is that a minaret is a prominent, noticeable symbol of a Muslim presence. It's not the type of thing that people who want a minority to remain silent and servile, rather than proud, like to see.

That sounds about right. (Probably part of the reason for the headscarf bans in France - and in Turkey, for that matter.


I get annoyed that Muslims are constantly complaining about unfair treatment and discrimination

Which this is, and was unfair treatment and discrimination voted for by their fellow Swiss. And over tops of buildings - not about Muslims "dictating the beliefs and practices of Christians", this is over a piece of architecture on the top of Muslim buildings.

So I don't know what the point of your post was.

[Forseti]

Maybe I'm being cynical about this, but I firmly believe identical referenda would yield identical results in practically every western european country.

[Venom Melendez]

I get annoyed that Muslims are constantly complaining about unfair treatment and discrimination when many Islamic countries have tight ristrictions on religion, where religious practice and promotion are tightly controlled to the extent that practicing other religions can lead to severe punishments, especially for former Muslims who have converted to Christianity or another religion.

I don't see why Christian nations have to pander to religions that don't respect the beliefs of others and while I don't mind moderate Muslims practicing their beliefs, I don't want them to feel that they have a status that allows them to dictate the beliefs and practices of Christians in Christian countries.

Minarets aren't a problem on their own but Swiss Muslims should be happy that they don't face the dangers of Christians in the Islamic world.


But it is unfair treatment and discrimination.

Also, christians aren't exactly innocent when it comes to discriminating against others.

[Adam C]

I get annoyed that Muslims are constantly complaining about unfair treatment and discrimination when many Islamic countries have tight ristrictions on religion, where religious practice and promotion are tightly controlled to the extent that practicing other religions can lead to severe punishments, especially for former Muslims who have converted to Christianity or another religion.

So Swiss Muslims' shouldn't complain about having their religious rights trampled on because authoritarian states as well as local prejudices in the Middle East trample on other religious groups' rights?


I don't see why Christian nations have to pander to religions that don't respect the beliefs of others and while I don't mind moderate Muslims practicing their beliefs, I don't want them to feel that they have a status that allows them to dictate the beliefs and practices of Christians in Christian countries.

What does any of that have to do with the Minaret ban?

[mikekerr3]

Apparently popular initiatives that amend the constitution are not subject to judicial review.

Amendments to the US Constitution are not subject to judicial review either.

[mikekerr3]

That sounds about right. (Probably part of the reason for the headscarf bans in France - and in Turkey, for that matter.
France maybe, or eeven probably, but Turkey no, The Turks tend to be rigously secualr in public matters because they believe their survival as a nation depends on it.

Ataturk wanted it that way , that's a good enough reason for most Turks.:wink:


.

[Weetomuncher]

I sounded harsher than I meant to on my earlier post as I don't have any problem with the practice of moderate Islam and I what I tend to dislike is not Islam itself but the mixture of secularism and hardline Islamic thought which tends to be presented as an Islamic view.

Local authorities in the UK have called off or secularised some Christmas related festivities in recent years and the blame for this tends to be thrown towards local Muslims when the culprits are normally secularists within local authorities.

I don't mind minarets on Mosques as the Central Mosque in Glasgow is one
of Scotland's most striking landmarks and is beautiful.

I know Muslim and Sikh people who love the Christmas period because of the good nature and goodwill of Christmas throughout the community.

I do have a mild fear of Islam but it is only the hardliners who worry me and not the peaceful people attending moderate Mosques.

I'm sorry if I sounded too hardline in my first post as I was only suggesting that hardliners and secular people often disrespect Christian traditions.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Ya know, a small ethno-centric part of my brain sees Europe as culturally stagnate, unwilling to adapt to the changes that naturally come with time. Sees them as clinging to the past because it is the past and is unwilling to accept the new cultures that naturally come with being an open society. Most days, I can dismiss that part of my brain.

Got alot harder today, I'll admit.

[lonewolf23k]

I really get tired of people thinking that muslims are like Catholics, IE they have one religion with a top down command structure. That's now how they roll, and never has been.

Well, to a certain extent, they do. It's just that their "Top Down" structure starts with the Qu'ran at the top, and the Shar'ia law specifically.

And personally, I have to ask..

Does a Mosque really need a Minaret? ...Or a Church a Steeple, for that matter?

[Gail Simone]

Terrible idea.

This will never work.

[Adam C]

Well from now on I have good reason (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article6938161.ece) to be suspicious of the Times Online from now on:


Switzerland’s referendum vote to ban minarets is needlessly xenophobic but it does not infringe the religious liberty of Swiss Muslims. Minarets remain emblematic of mosques in the Muslim heartlands but there is no theological reason why houses of worship in the West have to incorporate such towers.

There's no theological reason no, but how is this not an infringement on religious liberty? It is in effect forbidding a religious group from practicing their preferred architectural traditions not because any practical matters like building safety or zoning laws, but because a bunch of people a terrified that minarets somehow represent encroaching extremism. Oddly enough the guy who wrote this is chairman of the Muslim Educational Centre of Oxford. He makes valid enough points about European Muslims confronting radicalism, etc. and some rather nebulous, pointless statements not "mindlessly mimicking Eastern design," as though that has any bearing on issues of extremism.

It's also doubly stupid since arguably Christian scripture does not require the use of church bells and clappers to summon the faithful to mass, nor that churches be of a certain height. But it's still damn obvious that regulations like these in Egypt still constitute infringement on the religious rights of Christians.

Of course his more general points about confronting extremism among Muslims aren't very applicable to Switzerland (http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/1201/p08s01-comv.html):


Not that tensions don't exist. But unlike Spain and Britain, Switzerland hasn't been bombed by Islamic terrorists. Unlike France, it hasn't watched disadvantaged immigrant neighborhoods, home to many Muslims, explode in violent riots. Unlike Denmark, it hasn't sparked global protests over "Muhammad cartoons" published in a newspaper or, as with the Netherlands, lost a famous and outspoken filmmaker to a gruesome murder carried out by a Muslim extremist.

Switzerland has had a relatively peaceful coexistence with its roughly 400,000 Muslims – many of them Bosnians, Kosovo Albanians, and Turks. They worship almost invisibly in about 200 mosques, only four of which have minarets. Burqas are rarely seen on the streets. No one has seriously moved to set up sharia law.

And yet what started as a local concern about a mosque and minaret was whipped into a national campaign by right-wing and ultraconservative parties. Following the script of fear-mongering hyperbole, they warned against the Islamization of Switzerland (Muslims make up about 4 percent of the population), against burqas and sharia, and against Islamic power and extremism

The worst part is that nonsense like this plays right into the hands of extremists since it's the kind of stuff they can use for propaganda purposes in portraying Islam and the "decadent West" as being at war.

[Gryphon]

this will likely end badly

[The Cool Thatguy]

Well, to a certain extent, they do. It's just that their "Top Down" structure starts with the Qu'ran at the top, and the Shar'ia law specifically.

And personally, I have to ask..

Does a Mosque really need a Minaret? ...Or a Church a Steeple, for that matter?

Except that they can alter the Qu'ran with a council of learned men (or somethin' like that) and they all have different takes on the verses/teachings/etc. If anything, they;'re more like Protestiants than anything else.

[Adam C]

Well, to a certain extent, they do. It's just that their "Top Down" structure starts with the Qu'ran at the top, and the Shar'ia law specifically.

Though it that regard it would make only slightly different than Protestant Christianity in that respect and probably not at all different than Judaism.


Does a Mosque really need a Minaret? ...Or a Church a Steeple, for that matter?

No. They were established as an usual vantage point from which to issue out the call to prayer though that's largely done through a modern speaker system. Similarly, steeples have mainly served as bell towers to signal prayer (and other meetings) at the church, but didn't show up until 600 AD. They were adapted from military watchtowers and originally were separate structures from the church. I saw a lot of Evangelical churches in Guatemala that didn't resemble traditional churches in the least.


Except that they can alter the Qu'ran with a council of learned men (or somethin' like that) and they all have different takes on the verses/teachings/etc. If anything, they;'re more like Protestiants than anything else.

Altering of the Qur'an? Are you sure you're not thinking of "interpreting the Qu'ran"? Altering it sounds like almost the exact opposite of what I know the basic attitude towards the text in Islam, where even translating it from the original Arabic is a contentious issue.

[Weetomuncher]

I don't believe in having a totally secular society but I don't like religious literalism pushed down my throat either.

Give people a choice in their faith but also respect prominant faiths and their importance in local culture.

I didn't know about the high proportion of European Muslims in Switzerland apart from the Turkish minority which I did know about.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Altering of the Qur'an? Are you sure you're not thinking of "interpreting the Qu'ran"? Altering it sounds like almost the exact opposite of what I know the basic attitude towards the text in Islam, where even translating it from the original Arabic is a contentious issue.

No, I'm fairly certain that a commitee of cleric can issue new rules, change old ones and whatnot so long as they come to an agreement.

I think, anyways. I only took a short class on the subject. But in my defense, I aced the test!

[jerrymcl89]

I understand reciprocity, and Islamic countries tend to be among the least accepting of others, but I think that while there might be places for European countries to draw a line, this isn't it.

[Spike-X]

I don't believe in having a totally secular society but I don't like religious literalism pushed down my throat either.

Give people a choice in their faith but also respect prominant faiths and their importance in local culture.


What is your point, exactly? Assuming you have one.

[Adam C]

No, I'm fairly certain that a commitee of cleric can issue new rules, change old ones and whatnot so long as they come to an agreement.

I think, anyways. I only took a short class on the subject. But in my defense, I aced the test!

Are you sure you're not confusing Sharia law with the Qur'an itself? I know that clerics can issue new laws and change old ones, but those laws are not so much the text of the Qur'an as they are it is derived from the Qur'an (http://www.religioustolerance.org/islsharia.htm) as well as a set of customs of and practices known as the Sunnah which are mainly based on the examples and sayings of Mohammed that are recorded outside of Qu'ran.

[Corrina]

Amendments to the US Constitution are not subject to judicial review either.

Which is why it's damn near impossible to get one passed.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Are you sure you're not confusing Sharia law with the Qur'an itself? I know that clerics can issue new laws and change old ones, but those laws are not so much the text of the Qur'an as they are it is derived from the Qur'an (http://www.religioustolerance.org/islsharia.htm) as well as a set of customs of and practices known as the Sunnah which are mainly based on the examples and sayings of Mohammed that are recorded outside of Qu'ran.

Maybe, it's been a while.

Regardless, the point stands. Muslims are like Christians, with different sects, views, beliefs, etc. They are not one uniform relgion that all believe in the same thing.

Yet too many people act and speak as if they are. It's annoyingly ignorant.

[Adam C]

Maybe, it's been a while.

Well for what it's worth I'm partly going by what I've picked up from scattered sources and statements others more thoroughly examining the religion have made so we're probably in the same boat on this one.


Regardless, the point stands. Muslims are like Christians, with different sects, views, beliefs, etc. They are not one uniform relgion that all believe in the same thing.

WHAT? You mean that Robert Spencer has been lying to me this whole time!? :eek:

[Alexander the immortal]

Nothing wrong with a small dose of Islamophobia in a country. I approve the actions of the Swiss. (So long that they don't overdo it).

[Spiffy]

So what did the Muslims ever do to the Swiss? Ban chocolate or something?

[Alexander the immortal]

So what did the Muslims ever do to the Swiss? Ban chocolate or something?

See danish cartoon incident. Probably created Islamophobic reactions. (Which are a good thing on a minimum and a bad thing if they get past that point.)

[Adam C]

Nothing wrong with a small dose of Islamophobia in a country. I approve the actions of the Swiss. (So long that they don't overdo it).

You approve of them banning an innocuous piece architecture on nothing more than groundless fears? I'd say that's the definition overdoing it.


See danish cartoon incident. Probably created Islamophobic reactions. (Which are a good thing on a minimum and a bad thing if they get past that point.)

I'm not sure what the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy has to do with Switzerland since all of the boycotts (which were childish) were directed against Denmark.

[spoon_jenkins]

I don't think the architecture of a minaret is what they voted against, the issue is probably what they're used for. I've lived very near a mosque for a while a few years ago, and the call to prayer did really annoy me at times. Almost as much as church bells.
No, I don't believe that's the issue. As noted, ideological reasons were explicitly given so we don't have to speculate that there's a more mundane reason. Furthermore, if it's a noise problem, the common sense thing is to have local zoning boards/ordinances handle the issue. Folks don't just normally making something like this a national referendum topic on purely noise/nuisance. Otherwise, we'd see stuff like house pets, parking lots, and restaurant locations ending up on national ballots as well. And yeah, church bells aren't under attack.

[mikekerr3]

No, I'm fairly certain that a commitee of cleric can issue new rules, change old ones and whatnot so long as they come to an agreement.

I think, anyways. I only took a short class on the subject. But in my defense, I aced the test!


Most of the Rules in Islamic Society, like headscarve and such don't come from the Koran, those things can be changed, but the Koran itself can't be.

[mikekerr3]

I don't believe in having a totally secular society but I don't like religious literalism pushed down my throat either.

Give people a choice in their faith but also respect prominant faiths and their importance in local culture.

I didn't know about the high proportion of European Muslims in Switzerland apart from the Turkish minority which I did know about.

I respect peoples right to have the faith that they chose

I think that the prominence of their faith is completely irrelevant, One or a billion worshipers have th same right to respect.

But I do belive that society should be secular, and I have exactly the same respect for all organized religions: none

[mikekerr3]

Which is why it's damn near impossible to get one passed.

And as a recent administration proved, that is a very good thing:wink:

[Adam C]

Most of the Rules in Islamic Society, like headscarve and such don't come from the Koran, those things can be changed, but the Koran itself can't be.

I've heard that the practice has variously been originally attributed to ancient Persia and ancient Greece, which the Arabs picked up through its conquests of the Sassanid and Byzantine Empires respectively.

[spoon_jenkins]

Nothing wrong with a small dose of Islamophobia in a country. I approve the actions of the Swiss. (So long that they don't overdo it).

You approve of them banning an innocuous piece architecture on nothing more than groundless fears? I'd say that's the definition overdoing it.
Yeah, it's really odd to think that you can tamp down hysteria (like all the violence and threats of violence regarding the Jyllands-Posten cartoons) by responding with illogical and capricious conduct of your own.

If Christian Europeans attack Islamic symbols and culture that's not extremist, they just mainstream Muslims that they shouldn't trust them. Banning minarets doesn't stem extremism; it inflames. Banning minarets to fight Islamic extremism is lacking banning all rank and file Catholics from receiving Communion to combat clergy sex abuse. It's ridiculous.


Well, to a certain extent, they do. It's just that their "Top Down" structure starts with the Qu'ran at the top, and the Shar'ia law specifically.
Nope, not really like Catholicism. There's no one central authority as far as I know. I was reading about Shia and Iran a few months back. There a lot of history in Shiism in choosing to follow the teachings of different clerics. It's a big contrast to Catholicism's centralized structure, because one person might be inclined to follow the guidance of one ayatollah, but another person might take guidance from an ayatollah who interprets things differently.

[Charles RB]

but Turkey no, The Turks tend to be rigously secualr in public matters because they believe their survival as a nation depends on it.

Only true of some Turks, a lot of others would like to be a bit more religious. Remember all that furor where the courts, army, and opposition party were declaring the ruling party to be dangerously fundamentalist? (It was doing horrible stuff like allowing religious garb in Universities, IIRC - scary...)




Local authorities in the UK have called off or secularised some Christmas related festivities in recent years

Has there ever been a true case of this, not just tabloids lying?



Of course his more general points about confronting extremism among Muslims aren't very applicable to Switzerland (http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/1201/p08s01-comv.html):

So there weren't any significant local problems until... now. Lovle.y

[Iangould]

Nothing wrong with a small dose of Islamophobia in a country. I approve the actions of the Swiss. (So long that they don't overdo it).

Somehow I doubt you'd have the nerve to write "Nothing wrong with a small dose of antisemitism in a country."

But, of course, that's completely different.

[Iangould]

I get annoyed that Muslims are constantly complaining about unfair treatment and discrimination when many Islamic countries have tight ristrictions on religion, where religious practice and promotion are tightly controlled to the extent that practicing other religions can lead to severe punishments, especially for former Muslims who have converted to Christianity or another religion.

I don't see why Christian nations have to pander to religions that don't respect the beliefs of others and while I don't mind moderate Muslims practicing their beliefs, I don't want them to feel that they have a status that allows them to dictate the beliefs and practices of Christians in Christian countries.

Minarets aren't a problem on their own but Swiss Muslims should be happy that they don't face the dangers of Christians in the Islamic world.

Actually if you take the time to talk to some Muslims living in the west you'll find a lot of them came here precisely because they disapprove of the governments back in their homelands.

So really what you're complaining about is people who've voluntarily chosen to live in a liberal society asking that society to live up to its own proclaimed standards.

[Iangould]

There are four hundreds mosques in Switzerland.

A total of four of them have minarets.

Those four don't actually use the Minarets to broadcast the call for prayer.

There are no applications to build more minarets.

This is not dealing with a real problem - it's to remind the Muslims that they're second class citizens and not to get ideas above their stations.

[king mob]

I get annoyed that Muslims are constantly complaining about unfair treatment and discrimination when many Islamic countries have tight ristrictions on religion, where religious practice and promotion are tightly controlled to the extent that practicing other religions can lead to severe punishments, especially for former Muslims who have converted to Christianity or another religion.

I don't see why Christian nations have to pander to religions that don't respect the beliefs of others and while I don't mind moderate Muslims practicing their beliefs, I don't want them to feel that they have a status that allows them to dictate the beliefs and practices of Christians in Christian countries.

Minarets aren't a problem on their own but Swiss Muslims should be happy that they don't face the dangers of Christians in the Islamic world.

You do realise that the majority of Muslims in Switzerland come from the Balkan countries and Turkey so your point is nonsense isn't it.

[king mob]

Maybe I'm being cynical about this, but I firmly believe identical referenda would yield identical results in practically every western european country.

Possibly, but thankfully the EU has laws protecting us against this type of vote.

[king mob]

Nothing wrong with a small dose of Islamophobia in a country. I approve the actions of the Swiss. (So long that they don't overdo it).

The Swiss Jewish community have been standing with the Muslim community to try to stop the ban because they obviously know this type of discrimination. 'Small' doses of Islamophobia like this damages not just the Muslim community as it's now legal to discriminate against them, but you're giving racists and the far-right a toehold to gain bigger discriminations.

Plus as said, you'd not have the bollocks to write 'antisemitism' which shows just how acceptable many people think Islamophobia is.

[king mob]

Has there ever been a true case of this, not just tabloids lying?


The stories come from local councils having winter festivals that include Christmas, as well as everything else, but on the whole it's scaremongering from the redtops.

[Iangould]

You do realise that the majority of Muslims in Switzerland come from the Balkan countries and Turkey so your point is nonsense isn't it.

Next you'll be talking about the only country in occupied Europe to end World War II with a larger Jewish population than at the start of the war. (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,356717,00.html)

[Forseti]

Somehow I doubt you'd have the nerve to write "Nothing wrong with a small dose of antisemitism in a country."

But, of course, that's completely different.
Actually, I think it is completely different. Hating someone, however much misguided, for what he does, is not the same as hating someone for what he is.

[Iangould]

Actually, I think it is completely different. Hating someone, however much misguided, for what he does, is not the same as hating someone for what he is.

So what exactly have Swiss Muslims been doing that warrants hating them?

[Spike-X]

So what exactly have Swiss Muslims been doing that warrants hating them?
Building buildings with pointy bits on top, apparently.

[Spiffy]

So what exactly have Swiss Muslims been doing that warrants hating them?
Maybe they only eat Imported Cheese? :tongue:

[Forseti]

So what exactly have Swiss Muslims been doing that warrants hating them?

I have no idea. I'm only arguing a technicality.

I just believe that generally speaking, hating someone for a chosen lifestyle is not the same as hating someone for being of a certain descent.

[Iangould]

I have no idea. I'm only arguing a technicality.

I just believe that generally speaking, hating someone for a chosen lifestyle is not the same as hating someone for being of a certain descent.

Actually, being Jewish is both "a chosen lifestyle" and "being of a certain descent".

And while there are plenty of antisemites who hate Jews just for being Jews, there are also plenty who claim to hate Jews for their alleged crimes.

There are also plenty of instances from America and Europe of people being discriminated against or even assaulted because they look Muslim.

Remember the Greek Orthodox priest who stopped to ask for directions a few weeks back who stopped for directions and ended up being beaten with a tyre iron because some loon thoguht he was a Muslim?

[the4thpip]

That's what happens when you have referendums.


Except that Switzerland is a "direct democracy" where pretty much everything gets decided by referendum. And none of the referendums brought on by their fringe rightwing party ever passed, before this one. It came as a surprise.

[Libaax]

As a muslim i laughed at this because its pointless except showing fear,predjuidice.

Muslims dont need minarets to pray.

As a professor in Swedish Tv called the Swiss the European Saudi Arabia since its only those countries who ban religious buildings like this in the world. There are many churches in all the big Islamic countries except the extremely islamic Saudis who has laws that ban church building.

Most of all i get quesy seeing the german speaking leader of Swiss saying we ban this because we dont want muslims that do this and that do our country. It was like watching a black white clip of Nazi blaming everything in Germany for the jews.

Not the same thing historicly yet but its shocking how little people learn of recent history.

[Libaax]

Actually if you take the time to talk to some Muslims living in the west you'll find a lot of them came here precisely because they disapprove of the governments back in their homelands.

So really what you're complaining about is people who've voluntarily chosen to live in a liberal society asking that society to live up to its own proclaimed standards.


If more people was understanding as you the Muslims in the west wouldn't fear for the situation today like they do.

I come from a country you cant go back to since Extremist version of Islam rule it. Then in Denmark,Swiss extreme right rule and accuse you of being like the extremist people that have ruined your homeland,religion.


Its a no win situation. I just hope more European countries dont go the same way.

Hopefully people will get over the ignorance,prejudice against Muslims in today's post 9/11 world in near future.

[Adam C]

The Swiss Jewish community have been standing with the Muslim community to try to stop the ban because they obviously know this type of discrimination. 'Small' doses of Islamophobia like this damages not just the Muslim community as it's now legal to discriminate against them, but you're giving racists and the far-right a toehold to gain bigger discriminations.

Speaking of which... (http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/holy-post/archive/2009/11/30/swiss-vote-to-ban-minarets-a-warning-to-europe-s-muslims.aspx)


Last year, a Pew Forum poll found 52% of Spanish and 50% of German respondents rated Muslims unfavorably, compared with 38% in France. The poll did not look at Switzerland.

It also found rising prejudice against Jews was tied to rising prejudice against Muslims.

The funny part is seeing the National Post report this when it has largely flogged Islamophobic tropes like "The Muslims will outbreed us!" in the past.

Speaking of which...


Building buildings with pointy bits on top, apparently.

So what you're saying is that people voted for this ban because they are afraid of Muslims erecting their pointy bits? It all makes sense now...


I have no idea. I'm only arguing a technicality.

You're arguing for a technicality when you have no idea what it's based on?


I just believe that generally speaking, hating someone for a chosen lifestyle is not the same as hating someone for being of a certain descent.

That strikes me as a rather misguided interpretation of the matter. After all following that simple logic one could say, "Hating someone for being gay is not the same as hating someone for being an Arab."

[spoon_jenkins]

I have no idea. I'm only arguing a technicality.

I just believe that generally speaking, hating someone for a chosen lifestyle is not the same as hating someone for being of a certain descent.
Wow, those Swiss must be awesome minglers! They've met every Muslim in their country, so they can fairly judge the "lifestyle" of each and every one of them. Of course, aside from the ridiculous of regulating (not just hating) someone based on vague BS like "lifestyle", we know that they are making individual judgments. The Swiss electorate essentially said, "We don't give a damn who you are as individuals. You belong to this religion, so we'll treat you as inferior." And that's what they're doing, because they're not treating all towers the same or all noises the same.

[Forseti]

You're arguing for a technicality when you have no idea what it's based on?
I just believe, in general terms, that hating someone for holding a certain conviction is not the same as hating someone for an accident of birth. We need to make that distinction because the former concept isn't morally deplorable for every instance of it, while the latter is.

I'm not claiming that one is better than the other in most circumstances (like islamofobia vs. antisemitism in this particular case), but two things being just as horribly misguided doesn't make them the same.

[AllisterH]

Only true of some Turks, a lot of others would like to be a bit more religious. Remember all that furor where the courts, army, and opposition party were declaring the ruling party to be dangerously fundamentalist? (It was doing horrible stuff like allowing religious garb in Universities, IIRC - scary...)





Given the founder of modern Turkey's view on religion, the religious moslem in turkey are already starting to make the military nervous.

Not a wise thing to do given their adoration of Ataturk.

[bringthenoise]

I just believe, in general terms, that hating someone for holding a certain conviction is not the same as hating someone for an accident of birth. We need to make that distinction because the former concept isn't morally deplorable for every instance of it, while the latter is.

So you'd be OK with an antisemite who only targeted observant Jews?

[Adam C]

As a professor in Swedish Tv called the Swiss the European Saudi Arabia since its only those countries who ban religious buildings like this in the world. There are many churches in all the big Islamic countries except the extremely islamic Saudis who has laws that ban church building.

Well strictly speaking they haven't banned a religious building so much as a particular structure associated with it.

Which means this is ban is somewhat more similar to Egypt who have a bunch of arbitrary restrictions surrounding the construction of churches like having to obtain the permission of local Muslim communities before they can proceed with one, can't be above a certain height, no bells or clappers, etc.


I just believe, in general terms, that hating someone for holding a certain conviction is not the same as hating someone for an accident of birth. We need to make that distinction because the former concept isn't morally deplorable for every instance of it, while the latter is.

In general terms, yes, though in this case it's a virtually meaningless distinction to make. For one thing the ban is not directed against militant adherents of the Wahhabi sect who preach violence, but all Muslims in the country. While less extreme, the logic of this ban recalls the logic behind the discrimination against Coptic Christians (or Christians in general) in Egypt or the way anyone seen as just slightly to the left to the ruling regime was considered a "Communist" in many Latin American dictatorships, whether or not they were one. Basically the logic of the ban is not based what the group actually believes but how said group is perceived as a threatening "other" without any rational distinctions. So it is akin to racism anyways.

Plus as a Kos pointed out earlier, "Islamophobia" is often simply racism dressed up in fear of religious group as with the case of the Greek Orthodox priest who was beaten (http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/nov/10/102259/tampa-police-marine-reservist-attacks-visiting-gre/) with a tire iron simply for having a beard and being swarthy enough to look like he was from middle east. Sikhs have also been singled out for discrimination (http://www.sikhspectrum.com/112006/denise.htm) post 9/11 simply for looking like they could be from the Middle East (even though they are usually from East India).

[Adam C]

Given the founder of modern Turkey's view on religion, the religious moslem in turkey are already starting to make the military nervous.

In what way? I'm not very familiar with the situation in Turkey (though somewhat on Ataturk's views on Islam) so I'm curious.

[king mob]

After seeing the poster the Swiss People's Party used in their campaign, any wee lingering doubt that anyone has that this is racism at it's worst should be swept away.

http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/storage/SVP%20anti-minaret%20poster.jpg

[The Cool Thatguy]

After seeing the poster the Swiss People's Party used in their campaign, any wee lingering doubt that anyone has that this is racism at it's worst should be swept away.

http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/storage/SVP%20anti-minaret%20poster.jpg

...classy.

[Charles RB]

Nothing wrong with a small dose of Islamophobia in a country.

You what?


So what did the Muslims ever do to the Swiss?

Visibly exist. The bastards.




Most of all i get quesy seeing the german speaking leader of Swiss saying we ban this because we dont want muslims that do this and that do our country. It was like watching a black white clip of Nazi blaming everything in Germany for the jews.

How do you think Germany felt?

[Forseti]

So you'd be OK with an antisemite who only targeted observant Jews?
No, and if you read the part of my post that you didn't quote for some reason, you could have drawn that conclusion yourself.

[mikekerr3]

If more people was understanding as you the Muslims in the west wouldn't fear for the situation today like they do.

I come from a country you cant go back to since Extremist version of Islam rule it. Then in Denmark,Swiss extreme right rule and accuse you of being like the extremist people that have ruined your homeland,religion.


Its a no win situation. I just hope more European countries dont go the same way.

Hopefully people will get over the ignorance,prejudice against Muslims in today's post 9/11 world in near future.


In denmark the reaction seems to be casued primarily the actions of Muslims murdering a film director, and the psycotic and violent reactions to a few cartoons. The hate goes both ways on this one.

The Swiss vore is bigotry in action, but the fears are not completely baseless, a small minority is scaring people, and people are panicking


The Grand Mufti speaking against intolerance is pure comedy though, much like KKK or the BNP complaining about racism.

[mikekerr3]

Given the founder of modern Turkey's view on religion, the religious moslem in turkey are already starting to make the military nervous.

Not a wise thing to do given their adoration of Ataturk.

The Turks left the 7th century behind, and the Army will not allow a return to it. Given a choice between politicians and Ataturk the politicians will lose every damned time.

[mikekerr3]

In what way? I'm not very familiar with the situation in Turkey (though somewhat on Ataturk's views on Islam) so I'm curious.

Think of George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, MLK and Moses wrapped together and that will give you some idea how the Turkish military thinks of Ataturk, at least the few dozen members of that military I have spoken to about it.

[Charles RB]

a small minority is scaring people, and people are panicking


Except as Adam pointed out, that small minority does not exist in Switzerland.


The Turks left the 7th century behind, and the Army will not allow a return to it..

The army also threaten to back the removal of democratic governments if said government allows minor public expressions of Islamic belief. That's not protecting your country, that's being a threat to your own country.

[Bakasama]

Think of George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, MLK and Moses wrapped together and that will give you some idea how the Turkish military thinks of Ataturk, at least the few dozen members of that military I have spoken to about it.

I think should also add that Ataturk had very low opinion of Islam and founded Turkey as secular state.

[Venom Melendez]

I just believe, in general terms, that hating someone for holding a certain conviction is not the same as hating someone for an accident of birth. We need to make that distinction because the former concept isn't morally deplorable for every instance of it, while the latter is.

I'm not claiming that one is better than the other in most circumstances (like islamofobia vs. antisemitism in this particular case), but two things being just as horribly misguided doesn't make them the same.

Except it is the same. It's all xenophobia.

[KiplingKat]

Except it is the same. It's all xenophobia.

I have to agree to a certain extent. We are not just talking about a rational choice one makes to be a religion, but the culture in which these people were raised in which religion has a much greater influence on their everyday lives than most people in the U.S. can understand.

I took a cultural understanding video conferencing class and we spent weeks talking with college students from Morocco, Pakistan, and India. Morocco was probably the most secularized because it has been a cultural melting pot for 3000 years, but in Pakistan and India, religion/spirituality is much more integrated into their culture than it is in most Western nations, their daily lives, the way they think. India especially.

So an act like this, especially where it is not targeting church bells as well, is a from of discrimination.

[mikekerr3]

The army also threaten to back the removal of democratic governments if said government allows minor public expressions of Islamic belief. That's not protecting your country, that's being a threat to your own country.

It's an utter dedication to keeping Turkey out of the hands of people who would destroy what Ataturk built and take Turkey out of the 21st century. They are loyal to a set op principles they think more important than thier lives much less politicians wishes.

Head scarves are not in the Koran, they are a cultural symbol of repression and they think that allowing that oppression is a dangerous idea.What may seem to you or I as a small step,can seem to people worried about the bottomless pit they are living beside as a very dangerous thing.

[king mob]

Head scarves are not in the Koran, they are a cultural symbol of repression and they think that allowing that oppression is a dangerous idea.What may seem to you or I as a small step,can seem to people worried about the bottomless pit they are living beside as a very dangerous thing.

That's blatently bollocks though isn't it? To use the old arguement; there's much in the Bible that sets out to opress women (and has been used to do just that) but doesn't generate the same level of concern. Yes, the burka is oppresive, but your ordinary headscarf isn't and is for many Muslims is just a symbol of their religion as wearing a crucifix.

All this stuff about 'bottomless pits' is scaremongering as most European countries have happily existed with a Muslim community of some shape or form for years. This is as much about demonising Middle Eastern Muslims (who form a tiny part of the Swiss community anyhow) as it is Muslims generally.

[Alexander the immortal]

It's an utter dedication to keeping Turkey out of the hands of people who would destroy what Ataturk built and take Turkey out of the 21st century. They are loyal to a set op principles they think more important than thier lives much less politicians wishes.

Head scarves are not in the Koran, they are a cultural symbol of repression and they think that allowing that oppression is a dangerous idea.What may seem to you or I as a small step,can seem to people worried about the bottomless pit they are living beside as a very dangerous thing.

Turkey is not in the 21st century. Both the fanatics -islamists and the Hitleris ... eh sorry Kemalists have nothing to do with the 21th century for that matter. As for Turkey , Turkey is Nazi Germany before Nazi Germany , that survived.

[FeminineMystique]

That's blatently bollocks though isn't it? To use the old arguement; there's much in the Bible that sets out to opress women (and has been used to do just that) but doesn't generate the same level of concern. Yes, the burka is oppresive, but your ordinary headscarf isn't and is for many Muslims is just a symbol of their religion as wearing a crucifix.

All this stuff about 'bottomless pits' is scaremongering as most European countries have happily existed with a Muslim community of some shape or form for years. This is as much about demonising Middle Eastern Muslims (who form a tiny part of the Swiss community anyhow) as it is Muslims generally.

Precisely. Funny how it's only now that they pull a stunt like this, when it's so very easy to demonise anyone who's of the muslim faith. In a "Not funny at all" kind of way

[Libaax]

In denmark the reaction seems to be casued primarily the actions of Muslims murdering a film director, and the psycotic and violent reactions to a few cartoons. The hate goes both ways on this one.

The Swiss vore is bigotry in action, but the fears are not completely baseless, a small minority is scaring people, and people are panicking


The Grand Mufti speaking against intolerance is pure comedy though, much like KKK or the BNP complaining about racism.

Albani,Turk muslims has nothing to do with problems in Swiss. Its not about the religion itself but wanting people with different cultures to be put down.

Their leader talk about like their muslims are arabic, backward culture the Saudis. They are european those muslims.


The hate goes both way ? If Jesus was mocked i bet the really religious Christians would react violently. What is violently ? Burning Danish flags ? Who did that kill ?

Single muslims,christians kill people for other reasons everyday......

[Charles RB]

It's an utter dedication to keeping Turkey out of the hands of people who would destroy what Ataturk built and take Turkey out of the 21st century.

Except the government wasn't going to destroy what Ataturk built or take Turkey out the 21st century. Attempting a coup on the ruling government, one that IIRC is a modernising party (relatively), that would be a great way to drag a democracy out of the 21st century - there was one just last year (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7225889.stm), with 86 people charged including members of the army. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7504900.stm)

This is why you have the "deep state" legend (see first link):


It is a term widely used to describe renegade members of the security forces said to act outside the law in what they judge to be Turkey's best interests.

The phenomenon, much-discussed but never proven, is said to stretch back to Cold War times, when illicit paramilitary gangs were supposedly set up in collaboration with Western intelligence agencies to prevent the spread of communism.

"When the Cold War ended those structures went out of business, but they still existed," claims newspaper columnist Cengiz Candar, who has no doubt a "deep state" exists.

"Then the threat changed. The target became Kurdish insurgents or Asala," an Armenian militant organisation that targeted Turkish diplomats, he says.

For ultra-nationalists today the threats to Turkey include EU accession, Armenian genocide allegations and any talk of a peace deal to end the 24-year-old Kurdish insurgency.

In 1996, many Turks' suspicions of a "deep state" were confirmed when a car crashed in the town of Susurluk. Inside were a senior police chief, a prominent politician and a wanted assassin.

"Susurluk revealed weird connections between state officials and those who operate outside the limits of the law. It happened at a time when we had a lot of extra-judicial killings in Turkey," Mr Candar explains.

"But the investigation stopped just as there was speculation it was reaching very sensitive spots, even the military establishment. That only confirmed the existence of these networks in the public consciousness."

It doesn't sound like the Turks are comfortable with the army's claims of defending values.


Head scarves are not in the Koran, they are a cultural symbol of repression

Legally banning people from wearing what they want on campus grounds, that is a symbol of oppression; that's saying "you're not welcome here". It's the same thing as the Swiss wanting to ban minarets. It also, so the AK Party argued, was holding back religious women from getting a university education. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7441227.stm)

[Adam C]

Head scarves are not in the Koran, they are a cultural symbol of repression and they think that allowing that oppression is a dangerous idea.What may seem to you or I as a small step,can seem to people worried about the bottomless pit they are living beside as a very dangerous thing.

Only if women must wear them against their will.

But Joe Sacco, while he was down in Palestine doing interviews for his groundbreaking piece of comics journalism, he interviewed some Palestinian Muslim women in the West Bank and he found that surprisingly, the women there did not necessarily think of them in those terms. They actually positively identified with the hijab as a symbol of their identity and virtue, and were quite outspoken in their opinions.

[Libaax]

Only if women must wear them against their will.

But Joe Sacco, while he was down in Palestine doing interviews for his groundbreaking piece of comics journalism, he interviewed some Palestinian Muslim women in the West Bank and he found that surprisingly, the women there did not necessarily think of them in those terms. They actually positively identified with the hijab as a symbol of their identity and virtue, and were quite outspoken in their opinions.

Thats true if you ask most muslim women but some guy lik mike3r wont ask the muslims what they feel.

He will tell what's wrong,opression etc

[king mob]

The hate goes both way ? If Jesus was mocked i bet the really religious Christians would react violently.

The problem with this story is how many people actually support it and how many of those who do support it don't get the point that the Muslims are just the start for the far-right. Once they've been demonised and marginalised, then it's the Jews, the gays, blacks, Asians or anyone else they decide to turn their focus on. Right now, Musilms are sadly the bottom of the pile.

[Charles RB]

Yeah, this isn't "First they came for the X, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't an X" - this is "first they came for the X, and I helped them do it".

[Libaax]

Which isnt fun if you are black and muslim :P

First you read reports that blacks in this country was at the bottom discrimination wise but now its muslims.


Jokes a sides thats exactly why this ban worry me. If these extreme right parties rule in Swiss,Denmark grow around europe,take over more countries. Many more people than muslims will be in danger.

[king mob]

EU legislation does protect EU countries and Muslims right to freedom of religion, however what it has done is given far-right groups a boost, not just across Europe but across the world.

[BladeOfTheMortal]

It's really shocking and sad at how racist this is and yet it got voted through ...from the country famous for being neutral :mad:

Maybe they'll change their minds if the islamist extremists started bringing their gold in too

[Bakasama]

The hate goes both way ? If Jesus was mocked i bet the really religious Christians would react violently. What is violently ? Burning Danish flags ? Who did that kill ?

Single muslims,christians kill people for other reasons everyday......

If you're thinking about Muslims mocking Jesus, that's unthinkable since, Jesus is the second most important prophet after Muhammad. The muslims might join in with the religious Christians.

[Adam C]

The hate goes both way ? If Jesus was mocked i bet the really religious Christians would react violently. What is violently ? Burning Danish flags ? Who did that kill ?

He might be referring to riots over the cartoons in the Middle East, though that doesn't explain why Muslim protests in Europe and North America were peaceful (and mostly in Indonesia except for some vandalism by fringe groups).


In denmark the reaction seems to be casued primarily the actions of Muslims murdering a film director, and the psycotic and violent reactions to a few cartoons. The hate goes both ways on this one.


Are you referring to the same the riots that did not occur in Europe, but occurred in the Middle East where antipathy towards 'the West' due to colonial history and the current Iraq was at all-time high. The same region where authoritarian governments have long used anti-western sentiment as a safety valve against domestic frustrations. (Or why would the Iranian police allow protesters to burn a Danish embassy when they cracked down hard during the elections?)

[Spike-X]

Maybe they'll change their minds if the islamist extremists started bringing their gold in too

Ooh, nice one.

[Iangould]

The hate goes both way ? If Jesus was mocked i bet the really religious Christians would react violently. What is violently ? Burning Danish flags ? Who did that kill ?



How about the Nigerian Christians who have burned mosques and massacred Muslims?

How about the hundreds of people (many of them children) murdered as witches across Africa every year at the urging of "Christian" clergy?

How about the hundreds (literally) of Rwandan Catholic clergy who led and took part in the Genocide and specifically justified their actions as defending the One True church from the "atheist" "Marxist" Hutu?

What about the Lord's Resistance Army that's murdered tens of thousands of Ugandans in their campaign to establish a Christian theocracy?

What's that you say - you can't judge all Christians by the example of a few extremists?

[Iangould]

As for the Hijab, personally I feel it's a shocking infringement of their basic human rights that observant Orthodox Jewish men are forced, forced ! I say, to wear yarmulke and prayerlocks.

I say we need a law banning these hideous marks of oppression immediately.

In the name of freedom, tolerance and equality, of course.

Then we can move on to Sikhs and their turbans and Mormons and their "magic underwear".

[Charles RB]

As for the Hijab, personally I feel it's a shocking infringement of their basic human rights that observant Orthodox Jewish men are forced, forced ! I say, to wear yarmulke and prayerlocks.

I say we need a law banning these hideous marks of oppression immediately.


I hear that radical Jews and Muslims keep giving their children foreign names - how are they meant to assimilate with names like that?! Clearly, there needs to be a law.


How about ...

Before Ian Gould left the board, he made this great post:


Amongst her statements:

"The Jews have come from the tragedy (of the Holocaust), and forced the world to respect them, with their knowledge, not with their terror, with their work, not their crying and yelling. Humanity owes most of the discoveries and science of the 19th and 20th centuries to Jewish scientists. 15 million people, scattered throughout the world, united and won their rights through work and knowledge. We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people."

Yeah, except for that guy who killed a bunch of people at the dome of the rock. And the guy who shot up a bus full of arabs a few months back...and the guys who murdered Folk Bernadotte...and the Israeli soldiers few years back who smeared shit all over a Koran while occupying a mosque...and the Israeli army officers who authorised the air attack on worhsippers leaving a mosque in order to kill sheikh Yasin...and...

"The Muslims have turned three Buddha statues into rubble. We have not seen a single Buddhist burn down a Mosque, kill a Muslim, or burn down an embassy."

Yeah all those Muslims in the southern provinces of Thailand who "die in custody" are obviously beating themsleves to death to make their Buddhist neighbours look bad.

Same for the several hundred Muslism who died in anti-muslim riots in Burma last year.

and the muslim victims of the Gujarati riots

and the muslims killed by Christian Dayaks and Ambonese in Indonesia

and the hundred or so muslims killed in southern Nigeria in the last couple of weeks

and the thousands of muslims killed by the "Christian" Lord's Resistance Army.

I guess the muslims in Srebrenica all shot themselves to make the Christians look bad too.

[Spike-X]

Not to mention those poor, opressed women who wear those horrible ankle-length skirts.

Let's get those hemlines up, ladies! It's for your own good!

[Spike-X]

Damn, I miss Ian.

[Charles RB]

Not to mention those poor, opressed women who wear those horrible ankle-length skirts.

I hear that the Catholic Church forces women to live completely apart from men and live a feudal lifestyle. We should illegalise nunneries for their own good!

And then there's these radical Welsh... you know, they've got signs up in a foreign language all over the place? I dunno, all the English have done for them and they still refuse to integrate. We need to crack down on this.


Damn, I miss Ian.

So do I.

[mikekerr3]

The hate goes both way ? If Jesus was mocked i bet the really religious Christians would react violently. What is violently ? Burning Danish flags ? Who did that kill ? .

Jesus is mocked on a regular basis with no threats of violence, No crowds of psychopaths with signs saying that people should be murdered, where does stuff like that happen, not in Europe or North America?

What would be the Christian equivalent of Salmaan Rushdie or the threats that followed the cartoons?

[/QUOTE]

[Libaax]

Didnt an american sicko kill a doctor in a Church that was helping pregnant women to abort.

Thats a fundenmatalist act.

That dont get world wide tv news status because Islamis fundamentalist is easier to sell.....

[mikekerr3]

Thats true if you ask most muslim women but some guy lik mike3r wont ask the muslims what they feel.

I have worked alongside Muslim women, both those who wear and don't wear head coverings, and a couple who were beaten for refusing to do so after coming to the US.

Please remove your head from where it is jammed before you try to tell someone what I will and will not do, you don't have a clue.




He will tell what's wrong,opression etc Are you now claiming to be able to read my mind?

[bringthenoise]

Jesus is mocked on a regular basis with no threats of violence, No crowds of psychopaths with signs saying that people should be murdered, where does stuff like that happen, not in Europe or North America?

And as noted, there was no violence over the cartoons in Europe or North America either. North America DOES have some Christians using the Bible to call for the death (and depending on how you interpret it, murder) of Obama though.

But as has been said, you can't judge the whole group by looking at the extremists.

[Iangould]

Uganda proposes to execute homosexuals.

Christians applaud. (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?p=10112160#post10112160)

It's not any specific religion - people are just no fucking good.

[Charles RB]

Uganda proposes to execute homosexuals.


Shit. I'd heard they were illegalising it, but I didn't know to this extent.

[Libaax]

I have worked alongside Muslim women, both those who wear and don't wear head coverings, and a couple who were beaten for refusing to do so after coming to the US.

Please remove your head from where it is jammed before you try to tell someone what I will and will not do, you don't have a clue.


Are you now claiming to be able to read my mind?


You know a few muslim women ? I know 100s of friends,family who wear and dont wear hijab as their choice.

A man beats his wife ? Thats true for all billion of us Muslims ? Thats a big crime in any country.

Thats biggest crime here in Sweden and not even 10 % of the swedes follow any religion.....

A few extremist doesnt make all people of a religion extreme. You talk like it does.

Like bringthenoise i dont judge all christians in the world because of a few bible nuts that want to kill Obama.

[bringthenoise]

Shit. I'd heard they were illegalising it, but I didn't know to this extent.


Actually, they never took the anti-gay laws off the books from the British colonial days, but this is horrifying. I'll be e-mailing my MP, MEP, the Foreign Secretary and Gordon Brown as soon as I get home from work. This cannot be allowed to stand. I suggest that every other YABSter does the same (or the equivalent in their home country). This is a goverment expressing "joy" (direct quote from the Ugandan MP who introduced the bill) at starting a Holocaust.

[Iangould]

Oh and in case my last post was unclear, plenty of atheists are cunts too.

[Adam C]

Jesus is mocked on a regular basis with no threats of violence, No crowds of psychopaths with signs saying that people should be murdered, where does stuff like that happen, not in Europe or North America?


Yeah it happens in countries whose political culture has been screwed up by authoritarianism (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=10107607&postcount=102) as I pointed out earlier, but not Muslims in general.

[king mob]

Jesus is mocked on a regular basis with no threats of violence, No crowds of psychopaths with signs saying that people should be murdered, where does stuff like that happen, not in Europe or North America?

It'd never happen would it. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Springer:_The_Opera)


What would be the Christian equivalent of Salmaan Rushdie or the threats that followed the cartoons?



I dunno, maybe it happens and you just don't bother noticing it because it's easier to piss off Muslims than criticise Christians or Sikhs (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/4109315.stm).

[BBally]

I really think some leaders from certain Muslim countries should not be commenting on this. Particularly countries like Egypt, which tend to think of as moderate, but where minority Coptic Christians - who have been there for two thousand years - are almost always treated as second class citizens, constantly threatened with violence (several dozen have been killed in the last several years), have young Coptic women kidnapped and forced to marry Muslims and convert (and of course any child must be raised a Muslim), have to petition the government if a Muslim wants to become a Christian (the opposite is not true) and sometimes have their lives threatened if they convert, and of course there's the law (still never repealed as far as I know) where Christians have to get express written consent from the President of Egypt to open any kind of new church building (the law does not apply to new mosques). All these things are happening while the Grand Mufti complains about the rights of Muslims in Switzerland to build minarets. Hypocrisy, much?

I used to live in Egypt for more than 17 years and from what I remember Christians were treated as.... Egyptians. In fact the citizenship id removed religious identification which was promoted as supporting that all Egyptians are equal and believe me. I've known many Christians and I've seen no discrimination against them first hand, also there's the biggest Coptic ceremony that airs on commercial/mainstream Egyptian television every year.

Many sacred Coptic/Christian areas in the country are protected by law in Egypt.

Also many of the country's most successful businessmen are Christians and the country's richest man and respected businessman Naguib Sawiris is a Coptic. Also Pope Shenouda III of Alexandria has been a respected figure among most Egyptians for many years.

When it happens it mostly happens in the lower working class areas and at the hands of extremists and it hasn't happened that much until as of late as I recall but most Christians in Egypt are still proud Egyptians and didn't hold it against their fellow Egyptians who are muslims.

Also Grand Mufti Ali Gomaa has every right to speak on the subject, the man made a career out of publicly criticizing extremists and radical Islamic beliefs everywhere, on television, Q&A's you name it, he also made a career out of debunking fatwas like the Music is Haram fatwa. So he has more credentials than many so-called sheiks and clerics you find on television and speaking at mosques.

[FeminineMystique]

Uganda proposes to execute homosexuals.

Christians applaud. (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?p=10112160#post10112160)

It's not any specific religion - people are just no fucking good.

Of course. I've known we're sick, as a species, from about the age of fifteen onwards. Stuff like this just proves it.