View Full Version : Should we arm merchant ships?
With piracy on the rise should we be arming ships or the crews of merchant ships?
What say you?
Lester C.
11-22-2009, 01:44 PM
On paper I think it's a good idea. But if companies, who have millions of dollars of assets on ships and choose NOT to arm them there has to be a good reason for it that business related as that is all they care about.
Spike-X
11-22-2009, 03:44 PM
With piracy on the rise should we be arming ships or the crews of merchant ships?
What say you?
I say, "Yes".
On paper I think it's a good idea. But if companies, who have millions of dollars of assets on ships and choose NOT to arm them there has to be a good reason for it that business related as that is all they care about.
Yes business is out to make money, and really isn't that what were all out to make? If a business didn't make money what incentive would it have to continue to operate?
Sure we look coldly on cost benefit analysis when it comes to people, but its easy for us to make those judgments when where not the ones signing the checks.
Furthermore I think aside from the financial concerns such as insurance and liability there's also two other things to consider.
First there's the diplomatic issue to deal with. Having guns on board in international waters is well and good, but not when you in the waters of a sovereign nation. Even if we are on friendly terms with another country, we still have rules and regulations about what is and isn't allowed into territorial waters. Japan, for example, is rather picky about the kind of ships they let into there borders, regardless of what flag that ship happens to be flying.
More importantly there's the issue of safety. Is having guns aboard really going to make the crew any safer?
Granted pirates in general prefer to take a boat with as little resistance as possible. But will a well armed and determined band of pirates be stopped if they are aware that there are armed security aboard the ship?
dupont2005
11-22-2009, 05:07 PM
have merchant ships been targeted? i thought it was mostly cruise ships. whatever keeps people safe. there could be problems though, when it comes time for the ship to dock in america or other countries that might not like people toting around the kind of firepower that would fight off modern pirates
Reverend Smooth
11-22-2009, 05:11 PM
Give them lazer-powered cannons.
Free-Man
11-22-2009, 05:13 PM
Give them lazer-powered cannons.
Plasma-turrets and proton torpedoes!!
NickThompson
11-22-2009, 05:13 PM
The pirates are armed, so the merchant ships retaliate by arming themselves, so the pirates retaliate by...
Bob Violence
11-22-2009, 06:01 PM
The pirates are armed, so the merchant ships retaliate by arming themselves, so the pirates retaliate by...
Killing merchants. If I were a merchant seaman, I think I'd prefer not to be armed. I'd rather not die for the company's boat.
Cam63
11-22-2009, 06:09 PM
If I was a crew member, I'd prefer to be armed.
Pirates aren't nice people.
Corrina
11-22-2009, 06:15 PM
Arming the crew members, possibly yes.
Arming the ship...I'm thinking if the pirates win, they've just taken a whole bunch more firepower than they had originally.
Toreador
11-22-2009, 06:19 PM
Better to hire bodyguards like diplomats and celebrities have done. In this case speedboats and gunships for escorts. It will deter most of the pirates and any gun battles will take place away from the merchant/cruise ships minimizing any damage the ship might otherwise take. Good start-up business for mercenaries tired of desert or jungle warfare.
If I was a crew member, I'd prefer to be armed.
Pirates aren't nice people.
No there not, and in the past some have actually slaughtered crews without provocation, so there's also a risk that they'll just kill everyone anyway rather then hold them for ransom.
Although most are going for the ransom angle these days. It gets you more cash, and less heat. Many countries aren't to keen on massacre and the pirates that do such things usually come to a bad end.
It's really a risk either way, they pirates end up killing to crew anyway, or fire fight breaks out and many of the crew are killed in the process.
Better to hire bodyguards like diplomats and celebrities have done. In this case speedboats and gunships for escorts. It will deter most of the pirates and any gun battles will take place away from the merchant/cruise ships minimizing any damage the ship might otherwise take. Good start-up business for mercenaries tired of desert or jungle warfare.
That's not a bad idea, it keeps the fighting off the ships and the merc ships can stay back out of territory waters thus prevent diplomatic snafu's.
The only problem I can see is hiring such companies that have access to gunships will be expensive, possibly more expensive then many companies can afford to do on a long term basis.
mikekerr3
11-22-2009, 08:19 PM
With piracy on the rise should we be arming ships or the crews of merchant ships?
What say you?
On the high seas they would have to have Navy people manning the weapons just like during the World Wars, It could also be problematic toenter some ports with what would then be considered a warship.
The problem of where to get the people to man those weapons would have to be solved also.
mikekerr3
11-22-2009, 08:27 PM
Granted pirates in general prefer to take a boat with as little resistance as possible. But will a well armed and determined band of pirates be stopped if they are aware that there are armed security aboard the ship?
If they are equipment with the appropriate weapons for that job they will be stopped, It doesn't matter how determined someone is if they and their boat is converted into small bits of flaming wreckage and fish bait floating on the sea. If the guards are equipped like cops, don't even bother.
I think that randomly putting military teams on a few vessels would be enough to make the pirates reconsider attacking any American vessel
mikekerr3
11-22-2009, 08:30 PM
have merchant ships been targeted? i thought it was mostly cruise ships. whatever keeps people safe. there could be problems though, when it comes time for the ship to dock in america or other countries that might not like people toting around the kind of firepower that would fight off modern pirates
It's mostly tnkers It has been for quite a while, they Steel the oil and ranson the crews ad the ship. the modern pirates are mostly equiped with nothing more than AK-47s and RPGs and are on small powerboats operating from an mother-boat that used to be a fishing boat.
Furthermore I think aside from the financial concerns such as insurance and liability there's also two other things to consider.
First there's the diplomatic issue to deal with. Having guns on board in international waters is well and good, but not when you in the waters of a sovereign nation. Even if we are on friendly terms with another country, we still have rules and regulations about what is and isn't allowed into territorial waters. Japan, for example, is rather picky about the kind of ships they let into there borders, regardless of what flag that ship happens to be flying.
More importantly there's the issue of safety. Is having guns aboard really going to make the crew any safer?
in addition, once a ship gets 'armed' it ceases becoming a merchant ship, I think.
If they are equipment with the appropriate weapons for that job they will be stopped, It doesn't matter how determined someone is if they and their boat is converted into small bits of flaming wreckage and fish bait floating on the sea. If the guards are equipped like cops, don't even bother.
I think that randomly putting military teams on a few vessels would be enough to make the pirates reconsider attacking any American vessel
Except for what mgs just pointed out.
in addition, once a ship gets 'armed' it ceases becoming a merchant ship, I think.
You have a point, I think there's some international laws that take precedent here.
Once you start arming ships then they can be technically classified as warships. And if a "warship" enters the waters of a sovereign nation without it's consent its paramount to war, or an act of piracy itself.
JCAll
11-22-2009, 11:06 PM
Yeah this is what we need. A bunch of untrained paranoids itching to blow away the first thing that looks at them funny. Surely there's a better way.
Charles RB
11-23-2009, 03:30 AM
At the moment, you're more likely to get hurt or killed by resisting pirates - so no, I wouldn't arm the crew. That puts them in greater danger, because the pirates will attack anyway and there's no real chance of back-up. Too risky.
Escort boats/copters would make more sense (armed defence/deterrent that isn't part of the crew) but that'd be a massive undertaking by the world's collective navies.
Cam63
11-23-2009, 05:22 AM
It's mostly tnkers It has been for quite a while, they Steel the oil and ranson the crews ad the ship. the modern pirates are mostly equiped with nothing more than AK-47s and RPGs and are on small powerboats operating from an mother-boat that used to be a fishing boat.
About 50-100 rounds from a Browning .50 usually sorts 'em out.
Free-Man
11-23-2009, 05:24 AM
About 50-100 rounds from a Browning .50 usually sorts 'em out.
Cam, when did you become the Australian Clint Eastwood?
And I'm in favor of arming the crew, but not the boat itself. Maybe send some soldiers along with the ship, as I'm not sure that it's safe to have random sailors use firearms.
Cam63
11-23-2009, 05:35 AM
Cam, when did you become the Australian Clint Eastwood?
1982..........
LewisH
11-23-2009, 08:13 AM
of course that life is so miserable for the so called pirates that they are more than willing to risk their lives for the payoffs.
Piracy ceases when the risk outways the profit. Since Somalia and the surrounding area aren't likely to be anything but unstable, poverty stricken lands of misery any time in the near future, its just going to keep going. You're only short term solution is to defend yourself.
One solution is to hire one group of pirates to hunt down another a la the Privateers. Not sure how popular that would be in this day and age but it did work to a certain degree in the time of Captain Kidd and Captain Morgan.
DeadXMan
11-23-2009, 08:20 AM
yes, they should. If not have the navy escort them like they do during times of war.
let see the bastards faces in their speed boats when a light destroyer fires at them:evilsmile:
mikekerr3
11-23-2009, 12:18 PM
yes, they should. If not have the navy escort them like they do during times of war.
let see the bastards faces in their speed boats when a light destroyer fires at them:evilsmile:
The navie has been continually shirking since Reagan left office, Our navy is not big enough, and do we want to spend that much effort and money for oil that is on foreign flagged ships for the most part and going to foreign countries.
Bob Violence
11-23-2009, 02:01 PM
The navie has been continually shirking since Reagan left office, Our navy is not big enough, and do we want to spend that much effort and money for oil that is on foreign flagged ships for the most part and going to foreign countries.
Shirking? Or shrinking?
M. Bushbug
11-23-2009, 02:02 PM
With piracy on the rise should we be arming ships or the crews of merchant ships?
What say you?No. The owners of those ships should be arming the ships or crew of those ships.
Charles RB
11-23-2009, 02:17 PM
One solution is to hire one group of pirates to hunt down another a la the Privateers.
As I recall, the privateers happily became pirates again when the opportunity arised. It wouldn't fix anything long-term.
Venom Melendez
11-23-2009, 02:21 PM
Killing merchants. If I were a merchant seaman, I think I'd prefer not to be armed. I'd rather not die for the company's boat.
They would kill a merchant regardless. If they're are they can at least defend themselves.
mikekerr3
11-23-2009, 03:28 PM
Shirking? Or shrinking?
shrinking :redface: .
mikekerr3
11-23-2009, 03:30 PM
They would kill a merchant regardless. If they're are they can at least defend themselves.
They have a very good record for not killing the sailor, they are not worth much dead but the shipping companies pay a lot to get them back. Killing sailors defeats much of the purpose of the piracy.
The guys who steal yachts in the Caribbean do kill as a matter of routine though
Lester C.
11-23-2009, 03:33 PM
I think this is like fighting. In a fight there are implict rules that both combatants generally abide by, like not kicking someone when they are down or trying to pluck out their eyes. I think there are also implict rules here. You hear about hijackings all the time, but very rarely about people being killed. If the sailors are given guns, then that changes the rules of the game and not in a good way.
Charles RB
11-23-2009, 03:50 PM
If the sailors are given guns, then that changes the rules of the game and not in a good way.
Yeah. I think arming sailors would just be a quick and easy solution, one that means states don't have to do much - and like most quick and easy things, wouldn't work.
At the moment, you're more likely to get hurt or killed by resisting pirates - so no, I wouldn't arm the crew. That puts them in greater danger, because the pirates will attack anyway and there's no real chance of back-up. Too risky.
Escort boats/copters would make more sense (armed defence/deterrent that isn't part of the crew) but that'd be a massive undertaking by the world's collective navies.
The problem with helicopters is they can't fly all day, you'd have to be expecting trouble before you can scramble one. Problem with that is it seems typical pirate tactics is to get in close, get in quickly and strike before anyone knows whats going on. At that point the pirates might be to close to the ship to risk opening up on them.
Furthermore they would need a platform to land on. Having them on the ship itself could be problematic when crossing into sovereign waters, having them on another ship would add to the expense.
The Cool Thatguy
11-23-2009, 05:49 PM
I think the best solution would be to randomly deploy military forces on commercial ships. They could easily hold out until help arrived, if not repel an attack and it'd make pirates think twice about attacking other ships.
Bob Violence
11-23-2009, 05:50 PM
They would kill a merchant regardless. If they're are they can at least defend themselves.
You'd fight it out to the death to defend the container ship for Maersk?
You're crazy, but you're hired!:biggrin:
Charles RB
11-23-2009, 05:51 PM
The problem with helicopters is they can't fly all day, you'd have to be expecting trouble before you can scramble one.
Hence the massive undertaking: you'd need ships constantly in the area, with choppers and other boats on standby for rapid reaction, on top of escort boats. And also naval intelligence would need to infiltrate/watch the various pirate gangs.
That's if you want to make a serious dent in piracy. Make a big enough one that you can eventually go home, you also need to address the root causes (poverty, exploitation etc).
It's a big job if we want to do it properly. I don't think we do though, "we" in the "nation-states of the world" sense anyway - everyone agrees piracy is a problem, but when it comes to taking major action...
Charles RB
11-23-2009, 05:53 PM
I think the best solution would be to randomly deploy military forces on commercial ships. They could easily hold out until help arrived, if not repel an attack and it'd make pirates think twice about attacking other ships.
That'd put the crew in danger: there'd always be the chance that they'd be caught in the crossfire, and the pirates would likely think twice about how to more quickly and brutally seize the boat.
You'd fight it out to the death to defend the container ship for Maersk?
You're crazy, but you're hired!:biggrin:
If he puts on red and black suit, complete with mask, I'll also hire him. :biggrin:
The Cool Thatguy
11-23-2009, 06:28 PM
That'd put the crew in danger: there'd always be the chance that they'd be caught in the crossfire, and the pirates would likely think twice about how to more quickly and brutally seize the boat.
Not really. Establish basic operating procedure for the crew (get asses down and stay there) and you won't have that problem. Escalation isn't automatic, after all.
mikekerr3
11-23-2009, 06:47 PM
That'd put the crew in danger: there'd always be the chance that they'd be caught in the crossfire, and the pirates would likely think twice about how to more quickly and brutally seize the boat.
If the teams on the boat waws a real miltary unit there would be no cross fire at all. The pirates would be dead seconds after the first hostile act.. Clowns like that are baby-ducks to the military .
DeadXMan
11-23-2009, 08:01 PM
The navie has been continually shirking since Reagan left office, Our navy is not big enough, and do we want to spend that much effort and money for oil that is on foreign flagged ships for the most part and going to foreign countries.
last time I check there also American merchant ships in that area and have been attacked.
isn't there a strong navy presence around that area? Like in the Persian gulf?
Sabrinaset
11-23-2009, 08:17 PM
Arm the ships with tactical nukes. Give each captain a Cosmic Cube!
FeminineMystique
11-23-2009, 08:27 PM
Arm the ships with tactical nukes. Give each captain a Cosmic Cube!
:biggrin: There's no kill like overkill after all!
Though the cosmic cube IS vulnerable to twinkies, so that might be a problem
DeadXMan
11-23-2009, 09:07 PM
:biggrin: There's no kill like overkill after all!
Though the cosmic cube IS vulnerable to twinkies, so that might be a problem
twinkies will be the back up if Nukes fail.
mikekerr3
11-23-2009, 09:22 PM
last time I check there also American merchant ships in that area and have been attacked.
isn't there a strong navy presence around that area? Like in the Persian gulf?
There are few US flag merchant ships anywhere, some but they are a minority of vessels owned by US coporations
There is a strong Nave presence in the general area bu they are pretty buzy with other things like fighting terrorism. Most Naval vessels are not really all that suitable foran Ant-pirate mission anyway. The other navies in the area stop the pirates, then turn them over to the SOMALIAN government for prosecution, that has the net result of giving the pirates a few good meals before they are back at work.
It's funny that with US shipping and US bound cargo's being a very small part of the sea traffic, people still expect the US to handle the problem. I say just bann US ships from those waters until they are safe and let the peoples countries who need those cargos handle it, Japan has a fine and modern navy let them handle it, Or some of the EU powers, they all have navies.
Toreador
11-23-2009, 09:43 PM
To ease the cost of having armed escorts start forming convoys again. Safety in numbers.
Charles RB
11-24-2009, 02:50 AM
If the teams on the boat waws a real miltary unit there would be no cross fire at all.
So if and when there is a crossfire or the pirates don't die within seconds, we can safely go "oh, they weren't a real military unit". That's convenient.
The other navies in the area stop the pirates, then turn them over to the SOMALIAN government for prosecution
The countries involved all have different laws about whether or not they can prosecute pirates on their own soil. EU ships, by the way, usually send them to Kenya due to a special agreement. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8059345.stm)
DeadXMan
11-24-2009, 03:10 AM
There are few US flag merchant ships anywhere, some but they are a minority of vessels owned by US coporations
There is a strong Nave presence in the general area bu they are pretty buzy with other things like fighting terrorism. Most Naval vessels are not really all that suitable foran Ant-pirate mission anyway. The other navies in the area stop the pirates, then turn them over to the SOMALIAN government for prosecution, that has the net result of giving the pirates a few good meals before they are back at work.
It's funny that with US shipping and US bound cargo's being a very small part of the sea traffic, people still expect the US to handle the problem. I say just bann US ships from those waters until they are safe and let the peoples countries who need those cargos handle it, Japan has a fine and modern navy let them handle it, Or some of the EU powers, they all have navies.
I think it cause were usually the first to respond to a crisis, the one gives the most aid. and that we have naval and military bases set up all over the world is the reason why we are always the go to when this stuff happen.
Now if only there was some kind of Corps. that were train to fight in this Marine environment. They had to be crazy SoB and thier necks would have to tough as leather and fight with the ferocity of devil dogs.
Iangould
11-24-2009, 03:19 AM
With piracy on the rise should we be arming ships or the crews of merchant ships?
What say you?
Who's "we"?
Companies already have the option to carry arms and have security personnel onboard.
Some do, some don't.
So who's this we who are going to be telling them what to do?
The Cool Thatguy
11-24-2009, 04:03 AM
So if and when there is a crossfire or the pirates don't die within seconds, we can safely go "oh, they weren't a real military unit". That's convenient.
Real military units are taught how to respond to attacks,a nd maintain self control. What makes you think that they'll be more likely to catch crew members in the crossfire than repel pirates?
DeadXMan
11-24-2009, 04:49 AM
Yeah a few well placed .50 cal machine guns posts the pirates woulden't even make it to the ship.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1RPm-aZqxs
Iangould
11-24-2009, 05:09 AM
Except seeing as this is reality and not an Xbox game the pirates would switch to other tactics liker putting a few RPGs into a merchant ship without prior warning as an example and then extorting protection money from the owners by threatening to do the same again.
Cam63
11-24-2009, 05:24 AM
Except seeing as this is reality and not an Xbox game the pirates would switch to other tactics liker putting a few RPGs into a merchant ship without prior warning as an example and then extorting protection money from the owners by threatening to do the same again.
With that argument you'd disarm police and security guards as well.
The Cool Thatguy
11-24-2009, 05:29 AM
With that argument you'd disarm police and security guards as well.
Seriously. Pirates are opnly in it for profit and have little in the way of training. Make it harder and most will give up.
Except seeing as this is reality and not an Xbox game the pirates would switch to other tactics liker putting a few RPGs into a merchant ship without prior warning as an example and then extorting protection money from the owners by threatening to do the same again.
Also our military isn't as infallible as people would like to think.
Cam63
11-24-2009, 05:32 AM
Also our military isn't as infallible as people would like to think.
Navy SEAL snipers proved that.
Lester C.
11-24-2009, 05:38 AM
With that argument you'd disarm police and security guards as well.
I can tell you from experience that most companies do not arm security guards for precisely the fear of escalation. That and it's also a liability issue because shooting someone unless they are about to shoot you is a big no no if you are a private citizen.
Time to tell my gun story. I found one in a duffel bag at work years ago and called the cops and everyone else. Turns out it belonged to an armed guard who was filling-in for one of our unarmed guards and my vigilance cost us the account and him his job. More might have happened to the guy, but if it did I don't know about it.
The Cool Thatguy
11-24-2009, 05:56 AM
I can tell you from experience that most companies do not arm security guards for precisely the fear of escalation. That and it's also a liability issue because shooting someone unless they are about to shoot you is a big no no if you are a private citizen.
Time to tell my gun story. I found one in a duffel bag at work years ago and called the cops and everyone else. Turns out it belonged to an armed guard who was filling-in for one of our unarmed guards and my vigilance cost us the account and him his job. More might have happened to the guy, but if it did I don't know about it.
I suspect that it's more fear of liability and lack of training than anything else. More importantly, most security guards are just deterrents. They're not at risk of say, being taken hostage and then killed as an object lesson.
Charles RB
11-24-2009, 06:07 AM
Real military units are taught how to respond to attacks,a nd maintain self control.
And real military units fuck up from time to time. Collatoral damage and friendly fire happens.
Except seeing as this is reality and not an Xbox game the pirates would switch to other tactics liker putting a few RPGs into a merchant ship without prior warning as an example and then extorting protection money from the owners by threatening to do the same again.
That's what I'd do if I was a pirate and I thought there were armed soldiers on boats.
The Cool Thatguy
11-24-2009, 06:12 AM
And real military units fuck up from time to time. Collatoral damage and friendly fire happens.
That's what I'd do if I was a pirate and I thought there were armed soldiers on boats.
Yeah, friendly fire and collatoral usually happen in the middle of a battle, when things can get a mite confusing.
And why would pirates fire RPGs at ships without the intent to capture? They risk killing the crew (thus no hostages), the ship (lesser hostage) for what, exactly?
Non violence isn't the solution to pirates isn't the solution here.
DeadXMan
11-24-2009, 06:22 AM
RPG-7 maxiam range 1,000 yrd
M2 Browning machine gun (the Secondary weapon for anti-boat defense on large naval vessels corvettes, frigates, destroyers, cruisers, etc) Maximam range 4.7 miles
Charles RB
11-24-2009, 06:28 AM
Yeah, friendly fire and collatoral usually happen in the middle of a battle, when things can get a mite confusing.[/quote
So it's inevitably going to happen if you put soldiers on boats, unless the pirates don't fit back.
[quote]And why would pirates fire RPGs at ships without the intent to capture?
Kosmopolit just pointed that out: "extorting protection money from the owners by threatening to do the same again". Might even be easier than seizing boats, since it takes less men to sail up and fire RPGs than to capture and hold a vessell (since those guys have to stay there indefinately).
Non violence isn't the solution to pirates
Except I never said that. I said arming sailors or putting soldiers on ships isn't the solution.
DeadXMan
11-24-2009, 06:43 AM
arming sailors against pirates has worked well since we invented the boat.
we not talking about just handing a gun to guy. We talking about properly trained personal and regulations on which to respond to such events.
Iangould
11-24-2009, 06:53 AM
RPG-7 maxiam range 1,000 yrd
M2 Browning machine gun (the Secondary weapon for anti-boat defense on large naval vessels corvettes, frigates, destroyers, cruisers, etc) Maximam range 4.7 miles
And assuming you put one of those - and the crew to man it - on every one of the hundreds of merchant ships that cross through the area regularly, what are you going to do with it?
Open fire on every single potential pirate vessel that comes within range?
Yeah, killing a couple of hundred innocent fishermen for every pirate killed is a sure way to solve the problem.
Iangould
11-24-2009, 06:54 AM
We talking about properly trained personal and regulations on which to respond to such events.
On the same ships, that use Pakistani, Nigerian and Filipino crews to save the last few cents per ton on staffing costs.
Charles RB
11-24-2009, 08:07 AM
Yeah, killing a couple of hundred innocent fishermen for every pirate killed is a sure way to solve the problem.
Remember the fuck-up where the Indian Navy announced they'd sunk a pirate mothership and it turned out to be a fishing vessel?
mikekerr3
11-24-2009, 01:07 PM
So if and when there is a crossfire or the pirates don't die within seconds, we can safely go "oh, they weren't a real military unit". That's convenient.
The pirates don't have enough firepower to threaten freighter or tankers unless they board the vessel first. An RPG is their heaviest weapon amd that poses very little threat to an ocean going ship
mikekerr3
11-24-2009, 01:19 PM
And assuming you put one of those - and the crew to man it - on every one of the hundreds of merchant ships that cross through the area regularly, what are you going to do with it?
Open fire on every single potential pirate vessel that comes within range?
Yeah, killing a couple of hundred innocent fishermen for every pirate killed is a sure way to solve the problem.
An innocent fishing boat is not going to be approaching a ship on the high seas, they are not fast enough to do so and doing so even for innocent reasons is a very dangerous maneuver for vessels capable of it.. The pirates are using fishing boats as bases to launch attacks with small fast boats that are useless for commercial fishing purposes.
The problem of warning off the ones that have not opened fire can be handle the same way that it has been handled for centuries a shot across the bow of the approaching vessel.
I don't think the proposed machine gun is the appropriate weapon though, an ATGM of some kind would be far more effective. Unless the operator is drunk missing a target like a speedboat would be nearly impossible unless you chose to do so, and a hit would end the fight instantly.
Vakanai
11-24-2009, 01:23 PM
With piracy on the rise should we be arming ships or the crews of merchant ships?
What say you?
I would have to say, yes.
Merchants and ship workers deserve the right to protect and defend themselves.
And sometimes, with pirates, just handing over what they ask for isn't going to always increase chances of survival.
RPG-7 maxiam range 1,000 yrd
M2 Browning machine gun (the Secondary weapon for anti-boat defense on large naval vessels corvettes, frigates, destroyers, cruisers, etc) Maximam range 4.7 miles
But then were back to the argument of arming the ship itself, in which case, as MGS pointed out, I think it ceases to be a merchant ship under international law, and becomes a military vessel. That is problematic for merchant ships, because military vessels have restrictions placed on them on where they can and cannot travel.
Puppetmaker Grae
11-24-2009, 02:38 PM
You don't fight pirates at sea, you fight pirates by destroying their bases on land. However there seems to be little political will from any country to commit to this course of action, especially as Somalia is already extremly unstable & ungovernable. Besides, the type of action required would probably involve an unacceptable level of civillian casualties.
As long as the pirates aren't massacring the crews of the ships they take, and the ship owners insurance companies are happy to pay up the ransoms, nothing will be done. In the grand scale of worldwide shipping, the number of ships that are taken are barely worth counting, and the ransoms, although millions of dollars, are almost literally a drop in the ocean compared to the profits made by the shipping companies.
Only if it starts to hurt financially will action be taken, sure there'll be a media flurry every now & then, like when that ship full of Russian tanks bound for Kenya was taken (not that the pirates would have been able to unload them), the international naval taskforce will catch a boatload of the unlucky or stupid, but this is going to drag on for as long as Somalia is a failed state.
Iangould
11-24-2009, 02:42 PM
Remember the fuck-up where the Indian Navy announced they'd sunk a pirate mothership and it turned out to be a fishing vessel?
Now that couldn't possibly happen - just ask Mikekerr.
Iangould
11-24-2009, 02:47 PM
You don't fight pirates at sea, you fight pirates by destroying their bases on land. However there seems to be little political will from any country to commit to this course of action, especially as Somalia is already extremly unstable & ungovernable. Besides, the type of action required would probably involve an unacceptable level of civillian casualties.
As long as the pirates aren't massacring the crews of the ships they take, and the ship owners insurance companies are happy to pay up the ransoms, nothing will be done. In the grand scale of worldwide shipping, the number of ships that are taken are barely worth counting, and the ransoms, although millions of dollars, are almost literally a drop in the ocean compared to the profits made by the shipping companies.
Only if it starts to hurt financially will action be taken, sure there'll be a media flurry every now & then, like when that ship full of Russian tanks bound for Kenya was taken (not that the pirates would have been able to unload them), the international naval taskforce will catch a boatload of the unlucky or stupid, but this is going to drag on for as long as Somalia is a failed state.
Precisely.
You could deter the pirates to some extent by hiding small military units on a few boats but it wouldn't solve the problem just reduce it.
Want a military solution to the Somali pirates?
Give the Somali government the money and weapons to establish control over the breakaway regions of Somaliland and Puntland and to effectively police those areas.
FeminineMystique
11-24-2009, 03:19 PM
You know the answer is obvious. The boats should be guarded by the pirates natural predator. NINJAS:biggrin:
Vakanai
11-24-2009, 03:26 PM
You know the answer is obvious. The boats should be guarded by the pirates natural predator. NINJAS:biggrin:
This is the most practical of measures.
As a ninja, I support this line of reasoning.
Charles RB
11-24-2009, 03:49 PM
You don't fight pirates at sea, you fight pirates by destroying their bases on land. However there seems to be little political will from any country to commit to this course of action, especially as Somalia is already extremly unstable & ungovernable. Besides, the type of action required would probably involve an unacceptable level of civillian casualties.
At the moment, I can only see land strikes making sense if the pirates start murdering their hostages often - and then only as a punitive gesture, "don't kill hostages or we'll do this".
FeminineMystique
11-24-2009, 03:58 PM
This is the most practical of measures.
As a ninja, I support this line of reasoning.
You and Kris could help train up this crack team of boat guarding ninjas!:biggrin:
Vakanai
11-24-2009, 04:09 PM
You and Kris could help train up this crack team of boat guarding ninjas!:biggrin:
Never.
Inverse ninja law. As good as a crack team of ninjas are, a solitary ninja is a machine of death and destruction. The pirates see a team, they might take a risk.
They see a solitary ninja, they may bleed from the eyes before the fighting even starts!
FeminineMystique
11-24-2009, 04:52 PM
Never.
Inverse ninja law. As good as a crack team of ninjas are, a solitary ninja is a machine of death and destruction. The pirates see a team, they might take a risk.
They see a solitary ninja, they may bleed from the eyes before the fighting even starts!
Ah, the famous conservation of ninjitsu rule!:biggrin:
Vakanai
11-24-2009, 04:54 PM
Ah, the famous conservation of ninjitsu rule!:biggrin:
I told you I'm a ninja.
I try to keep up on all the rules.:tongue:
mikekerr3
11-24-2009, 05:06 PM
I think it cause were usually the first to respond to a crisis, the one gives the most aid. and that we have naval and military bases set up all over the world is the reason why we are always the go to when this stuff happen.
Now if only there was some kind of Corps. that were train to fight in this Marine environment. They had to be crazy SoB and thier necks would have to tough as leather and fight with the ferocity of devil dogs.
Rotflmao: that was absolutely beautiful
mikekerr3
11-24-2009, 05:15 PM
Except seeing as this is reality and not an Xbox game the pirates would switch to other tactics liker putting a few RPGs into a merchant ship without prior warning as an example and then extorting protection money from the owners by threatening to do the same again.
And a few RPGs would scratch the paint of a merchant vessle, past a few hundred yards from a fast moving small boat at a moving ship they would be lucky to even do that much. Merchant ships are big and the nature of their environment means they are very tough. Once they opened fir they would be toast and pirates are not famous being being suicidal.
mikekerr3
11-24-2009, 05:17 PM
Who's "we"?
Companies already have the option to carry arms and have security personnel onboard.
Some do, some don't.
So who's this we who are going to be telling them what to do?
They don't have the option to carry the kind of arms necessary unless you think that rifles and hand-guns are suitable naval weapons
mikekerr3
11-24-2009, 05:18 PM
Also our military isn't as infallible as people would like to think.
They are not infallible, but this is not exactly an operation that requires great subtly and judgement.
mikekerr3
11-24-2009, 05:20 PM
And real military units fuck up from time to time. Collatoral damage and friendly fire happens.
That they doas do police, so we should not use either?
[QUOTE=Charles RB;10052941]
That's what I'd do if I was a pirate and I thought there were armed soldiers on boats.
That would solve the problem you would be dead and the ship would need a bit of paint
mikekerr3
11-24-2009, 05:30 PM
Precisely.
You could deter the pirates to some extent by hiding small military units on a few boats but it wouldn't solve the problem just reduce it.
Want a military solution to the Somali pirates?
Give the Somali government the money and weapons to establish control over the breakaway regions of Somaliland and Puntland and to effectively police those areas.
There is effectively no functioning Somalian government, jst whatever warlord is in power this week, And it seems the goverment might well be getting its cut from the piracy operations.
I don't think tat giving weapons and resources to Fundamentalist Muslim wackos is a suitable way to stop piracy,
Electric i
11-24-2009, 05:39 PM
Yes, let's arm the crews of these ships. These filthy pirates in their flyspeck villages refusing to earn a living the honest way!
If those silly bastards had had the foresight to be born into Western Europe, the US, Japan, or Australia they wouldn't be poor, now would they? And if they happen to be born poor, then that is ALSO their own fault! They should have had the foresight to be born wealthy then they could rob people at will simply by offering them credit and insane interest rates or selling houses to people who could never afford them.
Stupid, stupid pirates!
Ah, the famous conservation of ninjitsu rule! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConservationOfNinjutsu?from=Main.ConservationOfNin jitsu):biggrin:
linked fixed for everyone's reference. :smile:
Actually, if you think about it the rule makes some practical sense. The more ninja you have, the less stealthy they are, and the less effective they become.
Charles RB
11-24-2009, 05:58 PM
There is effectively no functioning Somalian government, jst whatever warlord is in power this week
The Transitional Federal Government has been around since 2004, in fact, and is internationally recognised (including by the US). Their control and power are flimsy, but they are there.
And it seems the goverment might well be getting its cut from the piracy operations.
Local authorities in the quasi-independent region of Puntland get a cut, because that's where the pirates are based. That's why Kosmopolit said "Give the Somali government the money and weapons to establish control over the breakaway regions of Somaliland and Puntland and to effectively police those areas".
Cam63
11-24-2009, 09:09 PM
You know the answer is obvious. The boats should be guarded by the pirates natural predator. NINJAS:biggrin:
...or Australians.
Pirates haven't bothered us since that Gilbert and Sullivan show.
The Cool Thatguy
11-25-2009, 04:38 AM
Yes, let's arm the crews of these ships. These filthy pirates in their flyspeck villages refusing to earn a living the honest way!
If those silly bastards had had the foresight to be born into Western Europe, the US, Japan, or Australia they wouldn't be poor, now would they? And if they happen to be born poor, then that is ALSO their own fault! They should have had the foresight to be born wealthy then they could rob people at will simply by offering them credit and insane interest rates or selling houses to people who could never afford them.
Stupid, stupid pirates!
Gosh, you're right! Clearly, they cannot be held to the same moral standards as everyone else! The poor are born morally flawed, the overwhelming majority who never turn to crime just don't know it yet!
Charles RB
11-25-2009, 04:53 AM
Poverty is lot more severe in Somalia than in the West. And if poverty got more severe in the West, people would turn to crime in large numbers - it's happened before (the black market in post-war France was fucking huge).
The Cool Thatguy
11-25-2009, 05:17 AM
Poverty is lot more severe in Somalia than in the West. And if poverty got more severe in the West, people would turn to crime in large numbers - it's happened before (the black market in post-war France was fucking huge).
I understand that, but while it makes their actions more understandable, it is not an excuse.
Especially in the context of this thread. "They're poor, so we should just offer up our throats and lives of the people working the boats!"
Iangould
11-25-2009, 05:21 AM
There is effectively no functioning Somalian government, jst whatever warlord is in power this week
Do you actually know anything about Somalia or is that just your default assumption about any country run by brown people?
And it seems the goverment might well be getting its cut from the piracy operations.
Bullshit. The pirates operate almost exclusively out of Somaliand and Puntland, two areas trying to secede from Somalia. The Somali government isn't i"getting its cut" because they have no control over those areas.
The Somali government would very much like to see the pirates shut done because they're the major source of revenue to the breakaway governments of those areas.
Iangould
11-25-2009, 05:28 AM
I don't think tat giving weapons and resources to Fundamentalist Muslim wackos is a suitable way to stop piracy,
You know that many of the vessels you want to arm are owned by Muslims?
And that a large proportion of the world's commercial seamen come from Muslim countries?
Iangould
11-25-2009, 05:30 AM
And a few RPGs would scratch the paint of a merchant vessle, past a few hundred yards from a fast moving small boat at a moving ship they would be lucky to even do that much. .
Yes because the average merchant vessel is more heavily armored than a tank.
This is especially true of the smaller mixed cargo vessels that the pirates mostly target.
I believe their hulls are constructed of a special superhard metal known as Bullshitinium.
mikekerr3
11-25-2009, 09:07 AM
You know that many of the vessels you want to arm are owned by Muslims?
And that a large proportion of the world's commercial seamen come from Muslim countries?
That's why I used the modifier Fundamentalist
mikekerr3
11-25-2009, 09:10 AM
Yes because the average merchant vessel is more heavily armored than a tank.
This is especially true of the smaller mixed cargo vessels that the pirates mostly target.
I believe their hulls are constructed of a special superhard metal known as Bullshitinium.
They are huge even the smallest of them are huge, and unlike a tank they are not crammed full of volatile matreials and people.. the pencil sized hole a small shaped charge would blow in a freighter is not all that dangerous to a ship.
Ok folk's I think this thread is getting a little hot under the collar, so I will try to attempt to divert things with my general charm and wackiness.
I like the idea of guarding the ships with Ninja, I think that is the coolest plan yet if not the most practical.
DeadXMan
11-29-2009, 03:22 AM
...or Australians.
Pirates haven't bothered us since that Gilbert and Sullivan show.
You guys would seal everything that wasn't bolted down before the ships make port. :tongue:
Cam63
11-29-2009, 05:25 AM
It is in our nature somewhat.
Free-Man
11-29-2009, 05:33 AM
It is in our nature somewhat.
Well, you'd at least think the pirates would attack the vegamite ships!
Electric i
11-29-2009, 05:34 AM
I understand that, but while it makes their actions more understandable, it is not an excuse.
Especially in the context of this thread. "They're poor, so we should just offer up our throats and lives of the people working the boats!"
Why don't you spend 45 minutes researching Somalia's history post-WWII then you can come back here and talk about how they don't have any excuse for being pirates? Is it because it's easier to moralize about an issue you are virtually ignorant of? Yeah, I find that easy to do also.
FeminineMystique
11-29-2009, 06:13 AM
Ok folk's I think this thread is getting a little hot under the collar, so I will try to attempt to divert things with my general charm and wackiness.
I like the idea of guarding the ships with Ninja, I think that is the coolest plan yet if not the most practical.
:biggrin: Thank you darling. Ninja are the way to go. The pirates will literally not know what hit them.
Cause Ninja's are stealthy like that
DeadXMan
11-29-2009, 06:21 AM
then pirates would bring in the vikings. Then we'll have to have cowboys on the ships, then they'll bring the indians and so on and so fourth
FeminineMystique
11-29-2009, 06:24 AM
then pirates would bring in the vikings. Then we'll have to have cowboys on the ships, then they'll bring the indians and so on and so fourth
But the logical end to this ludicrous race is Godzilla vs King Ghidora surely. And that makes it all worth it:biggrin:
DeadXMan
11-29-2009, 09:17 AM
But the logical end to this ludicrous race is Godzilla vs King Ghidora surely. And that makes it all worth it:biggrin:
King Kong vs Godzilla
FeminineMystique
11-29-2009, 09:23 AM
King Kong vs Godzilla
Well that works too:smile:
then pirates would bring in the vikings. Then we'll have to have cowboys on the ships, then they'll bring the indians and so on and so fourth
Don't be silly, Vikings don't raid ships.
DeadXMan
11-29-2009, 06:20 PM
not as much as raiding but it's in their manifesto
Sabrinaset
11-29-2009, 06:25 PM
Let's put giant arms on these merchant ships ... so that when a pirate ship comes up to one of them, the merchant ships can pick them up and toss them away! I'd like to see Jack Sparrow try and fight one of those!
FeminineMystique
11-29-2009, 06:34 PM
Let's put giant arms on these merchant ships ... so that when a pirate ship comes up to one of them, the merchant ships can pick them up and toss them away! I'd like to see Jack Sparrow try and fight one of those!
This combines mecha AND pirate tossing (God that sounds dirty:redface: ) in one awesome package! Yes! Yes to this!:biggrin:
DeadXMan
11-29-2009, 06:39 PM
Let's put giant arms on these merchant ships ... so that when a pirate ship comes up to one of them, the merchant ships can pick them up and toss them away! I'd like to see Jack Sparrow try and fight one of those!
wasn't there anime with Ships getting into fist fights?
FeminineMystique
11-29-2009, 06:48 PM
wasn't there anime with Ships getting into fist fights?
The jokes here about sailors and giant metal fists practically write themselves:wink:
But yes it DOES ring a bell.
The Cool Thatguy
11-29-2009, 06:48 PM
wasn't there anime with Ships getting into fist fights?
Generally, any question that includes 'is there an anime with...' or any variation thereof ends with yes. Which is anti-awesome, if you think about it too long.
DubipR
11-29-2009, 06:50 PM
wasn't there anime with Ships getting into fist fights?
Perhaps old Popeye episodes. We need to feed the merchants on the ship spinach so they can have battleships appear on the biceps and beat the snot out of the pirates.
FeminineMystique
11-29-2009, 06:51 PM
Perhaps old Popeye episodes. We need to feed the merchants on the ship spinach so they can have battleships appear on the biceps and beat the snot out of the pirates.
The logical part of me always wondered...if he gets his strength FROM Spinach, how does he crush the can first? I mean I tried doing that when I was little. Didn't work.:redface:
DubipR
11-29-2009, 06:55 PM
The logical part of me always wondered...if he gets his strength FROM Spinach, how does he crush the can first? I mean I tried doing that when I was little. Didn't work.:redface:
Personally, I never understood why Bluto and Popeye would compete for Olive. Have you seen the ass, or lack of it, on her? But to answer your query, I don't know either. I don't know how his pipe would become a blowtorch to cut open the top and expose the spinach either.
not as much as raiding but it's in their manifesto
No it's not, I would know if it was.
Think about it man, we vikings do battle with heavy weapons, and clad in chainmail. Our ships are not designed to take advantage of pirate boarding ways. We wish to die in glorious battle, not glorious drowning.
Do you think we want to risk a ship boarding for a few measly chests and some woman's unmentionables?
Why do that when we can raid a castle or town and get tons of gold and a few women in their unmentionables.
FeminineMystique
11-29-2009, 07:14 PM
Oh my god the answer is so obvious. Clearly all ships must be made Transformers.
Then the ships can protect THEMSELVES from pirates! :biggrin: My genius frightens me sometimes!
DubipR
11-29-2009, 07:16 PM
Oh my god the answer is so obvious. Clearly all ships must be made Transformers.
Then the ships can protect THEMSELVES from pirates! :biggrin: My genius frightens me sometimes!
But happens to the manifest/cargo and the people when it transforms? Do they get all compacted and crushy?
But happens to the manifest/cargo and the people when it transforms? Do they get all compacted and crushy?
Yes I'm afraid Dubip has a point Fem, best to go with the Ninja plan.
Cam63
12-01-2009, 12:13 AM
Well, you'd at least think the pirates would attack the vegamite ships!
Everyone knows you can't make a ship out of vegemite.
FeminineMystique
12-01-2009, 02:55 PM
But happens to the manifest/cargo and the people when it transforms? Do they get all compacted and crushy?
:eek: Hadn't thought of that.
CutterMike
12-01-2009, 04:24 PM
The logical part of me always wondered...if he gets his strength FROM Spinach, how does he crush the can first? I mean I tried doing that when I was little. Didn't work.:redface:
(...) I don't know how his pipe would become a blowtorch to cut open the top and expose the spinach either.
...It's just TERRIBLE the things that a junkie will do to get his next fix...!
FeminineMystique
12-01-2009, 08:28 PM
...It's just TERRIBLE the things that a junkie will do to get his next fix...!
:biggrin: Have you ever watched Drawn Together by any chance? Popeye as a junkie is played right to the horrible end there. :eek:
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