What The Froot Loop Marvel? Top WTF Moments of 2009...

[OrishianSeeds]

Its the middle of November and the year is almost over...what are the top "WTF" moments of 2009 good or bad...what made you stop reading a certain title what made you start reading a certain title...


Go.(I'll post mine later...)

[InSovietRussia]

Anything by Jeph Loeb. Why do people keep buying his books? I'm not asking for intellectualism here, but he's basically the comic Michael Bay... his stories are often so dumb it hurts to try and follow the plot.

[RolandJP]

Norman take over
Hiatus titles; CB and MI3, Immortal Iron Fist
Millar's Fantastic Four
X-men's Bishop goes off

[Kasper Cole]

Anything by Jeph Loeb. Why do people keep buying his books? I'm not asking for intellectualism here, but he's basically the comic Michael Bay... his stories are often so dumb it hurts to try and follow the plot.

You just answered your own question I believe.

[Justin K.]

Magneto getting on his knees for Cyclops (Nation X) and bows down to him.

[Elijah Dexan]

FrankenCastle

[Peter F.]

Marvel still has over a month and a half left in 2009. We might not have seen the worst of it yet.

[brundlefly]

"Doom's Master"

[jackolover]

Scott Summers says to Norman Osborn - "Surrender"
Norman Osborn shouting at Namor - "Because I say so!"
Mr Negative Spider-Man - he was boss! He made Venom look like a School boy.
Norman shooting Peter and Nick in the head.

[Godric]

That its lasted so long in the "DARK"

[Tracks]

doom using wikipedia

[strathcona]

doom using wikipedia

Seriously? Who wrote that? They obviously don't understand the character at all.

[passer-by]

Millar's FF. But I keep collecting the book, I just take his run as officially approved fan-fiction.

The cancellation of Jeff Parker's Exiles.

The cancellation of Paul Cornell's Captain Britain and MI:13.

And some changes to the Avengers franchise that started some years ago and keep going.

Hint (I know, it's from last year, but it's so telling):
http://www.comicbookresources.com/images/litg/2008/0414/2008-04-10_234702_mightyavengers11.jpg

These books I no longer read since Disassembled.

[strathcona]

Millar's FF. But I keep collecting the book, I just take his run as officially approved fan-fiction.

The cancellation of Jeff Parker's Exiles.

The cancellation of Paul Cornell's Captain Britain and MI:13.

And some changes to the Avengers franchise that started some years ago and keep going.

Hint (I know, it's from last year, but it's so telling):
http://www.comicbookresources.com/images/litg/2008/0414/2008-04-10_234702_mightyavengers11.jpg

These books I no longer read since Disassembled.

The Ms. Marvel/Doom scene is a Bendis written scene, right? He also is showing a clear misunderstanding of the character... Bendis and Millar seem to have no idea how to write the majority of the MU.

[LordEd1976]

.

And some changes to the Avengers franchise that started some years ago and keep going.

Hint (I know, it's from last year, but it's so telling):
http://www.comicbookresources.com/images/litg/2008/0414/2008-04-10_234702_mightyavengers11.jpg


So when did the Julian McMahon Dr Doom become canon?

[InSovietRussia]

You just answered your own question I believe.

I don't understand why Michael Bay is popular, either. :confused: Care to enlighten me?

[StoneGold]

I don't understand why Michael Bay is popular, either. :confused: Care to enlighten me?

Because he made a couple of popular, easy to digest movies early in his career that made lots and lots of money, which gave him the cache to make movies later in his career that everyone would go see if there was a syphilitic turtle at the helm.


That, and he blow crap up.

[StoneGold]

Oh, and was the Hulk's Daughter stuff started this year or last? Because the first story was god awful, and the sequels haven't been much better.

[Elijah Dexan]

Seriously? Who wrote that? They obviously don't understand the character at all.

Maybe he was just vandalizing Reed Richard's page.

[DKR]

Ultimatum. 'Nuff said.
Amazing Spider-Man actually getting good again post-OMD. What? It was surprising.:tongue:

[Ferago]

Although it's not out yet, Franken Castle looks like it will put Punisher back in the hole Garth Ennis dug him out of. Oh well, maybe he can start having semi-regular cameos in Ghost Rider again...

[JurassicParkIsAnAwesomeMovie]

Disney buys Marvel

[Weapon Ick]

Off the top of my head my WTF moments were:

Red Hulk punching the Watcher
A dead watcher washing up on shore and it's subsequent autopsy
Tony Millionaire's Iron Man story
Wasp being eaten by Blob
The Spider-Man issue of Marvel Zombies

And not so much WTF but more of a horrifying OMGWTF?!?! moment was the baby issue of X-Factor.

[Iron Maiden]

Yeah, gotta go with Doom throwing a homecoming party for Clyde and bowing to him, then to make it worse he asked if he could get up. :tongue:

BTW, I think Doom using the wiki had a silly kind of charm that is sometimes missing in comics. I don't think they had winkles around the gypsy caravans when he was growing up.

Didn't Peter walk in on Aunt May getting her freak on this year?

[Iron Maiden]

I don't understand why Michael Bay is popular, either. :confused: Care to enlighten me?

The studio gave him Transformers and nobody cares who directs that. They just go for the sense of nostalgia for the toys.

I did like "The Rock" though.

[tassa_kay]

Matt Fraction still having a job. I wonder if he has a male lover on the side who he gets to dress up as Cyclops for him... because judging by the way he writes, he is sending this message out loud and clear.

Utopia. I cannot BEGIN to pontificate on how utterly retarded this story was; made more painfully so because it had a fantastic set-up with a lot of moral grey areas. I had high hopes for it. But no, Fraction completely jobs the "bad" guys, makes the "Dark X-Men: The Beginning" mini completely pointless by turning Michael Pointer into a power junkie and eliminating all grey from the story, and trying to pass off the idea that it's okay to give the government the middle finger and form a new nation entirely when certain segments of the population (in this case, the mutant-haters) bring up the POSSIBILITY of passing a law that would hurt mutants. And here I thought the X-Men "protected a world that hated and feared them". My bad.

Emma Frost and Namor turning on Norman Osborn for absolutely no logical reason. I agree with Norman in his desire to kill both of these characters right now. Namor, at least, has a tiny bit of precedent, because Norman yelled at him; Emma just showed the world how much of a useless faux-Brit whore she really is under Fraction's pen, and I'm done with her.

Dark X-Men: The Confession. This book literally took every shred of possible decency that the trainwreck-we-call-Utopia had, and completely fucked it up beyond all belief. I literally lit this issue on fire after I was done reading it at home, because I didn't want it to infect my other comics with its sheer idiocy.

Dark Reign - The List: X-Men. What could've been a heartwrenching Namor story turned into yet another Fraction X-Men wank-off.

[Schmakt]

I was thinking about buying Uncanny again since I'm reading Dark Avengers and had to read UXM for Utopia. But that was absolute crap. definitely did not start buying UXM, and I'm only holding onto DA b/c I hope it will get cancelled after Siege.

I can't pinpoint the moment, but the crazy timeline stuff in X-Factor finally made me give up. I loved this book for a long time, but it just got too... blah. I preordered 200 but not 201. And not Nation-X.

Was OMD this year? I dropped Spider-Man 2 issues into that and then dropped that crap. Still happy with that decision.

She-Hulk: That mini-series coming out. God, what happened? This used to be one of my favorite titles, but it lost every bit of fun that came from the whole lawyer thing... bounty hunter almost killed it, but then that mini with the "new" She-Hulk was just bad bad bad, and I no longer plan to pick up the next instance of this title.

Punisher. I kept trying to drop this, but Remender's writing kept making me come back. It was in the fake Avengers battle where I realized this... seemed like a dumb idea, but he pulled it off, and I'm definitely sticking around to see what else he can do.

Dr. Voodoo (or whatever): the wtf moment here is the same moment from above. Just realizing that Remender seems to know what he's doing. I wasn't a fan of the idea at first (Brother Voodoo sucks), but I picked it up anyway b/c of Remender, and he handled the first issue very well.

Still loving Daredevil

Captain America is on the verge... it was another one of those books that was just one of the best ever, but Reborn is incredibly annoying. -it should have happened in the Captain America comic. -leave Steve dead. the BuckyCap character has been great thus far. There will be a wtf moment with Cap soon... I'm just not sure which way it will go yet.

[OrishianSeeds]

Matt Fraction still having a job. I wonder if he has a male lover on the side who he gets to dress up as Cyclops for him... because judging by the way he writes, he is sending this message out loud and clear.

Utopia. I cannot BEGIN to pontificate on how utterly retarded this story was; made more painfully so because it had a fantastic set-up with a lot of moral grey areas. I had high hopes for it. But no, Fraction completely jobs the "bad" guys, makes the "Dark X-Men: The Beginning" mini completely pointless by turning Michael Pointer into a power junkie and eliminating all grey from the story, and trying to pass off the idea that it's okay to give the government the middle finger and form a new nation entirely when certain segments of the population (in this case, the mutant-haters) bring up the POSSIBILITY of passing a law that would hurt mutants. And here I thought the X-Men "protected a world that hated and feared them". My bad.

We're all entitled to our opinions so while you may think the X-Men is all whack now, I've got to say you're taking the issues out of context. The job of the X-Men has changed since the mutant population went from bustling future dominant species to the way of the dodo bird. They're not protecting the world that hated and feared them because they've got to protect other mutants and make an attempt to preserve the species. They're practically on a wild life reserve now like the American Condor.



Emma Frost and Namor turning on Norman Osborn for absolutely no logical reason. I agree with Norman in his desire to kill both of these characters right now. Namor, at least, has a tiny bit of precedent, because Norman yelled at him; Emma just showed the world how much of a useless faux-Brit whore she really is under Fraction's pen, and I'm done with her.

I can dig what you say about Emma...I'm not a fan of her super sketchy ass past creeping up out of no wheres. It was really like "opps I had sex with Namor also... TEEHEE" really random and kind of pointless.




Dark X-Men: The Confession. This book literally took every shred of possible decency that the trainwreck-we-call-Utopia had, and completely fucked it up beyond all belief. I literally lit this issue on fire after I was done reading it at home, because I didn't want it to infect my other comics with its sheer idiocy.

Meh..I didn't expect anything great to happen...and I don't know why you would've either. It was just a ploy to sell more books, they could've done he same thing on 2-3 splash pages rather then another tie-in.

[Sighphi]

Secret Invasion.

It wasnt a secret..... they reavealed themselves.

[worstblogever]

The entire Sisterhood arc of Uncanny X-Men was a whole lot of "WTF?". Try to follow the logic of Madelyne Pryor's plan. I dare you.

[Midnightblue]

Magneto getting on his knees for Cyclops (Nation X) and bows down to him.

I wish it was just a joke:frown:

[Brother Justin Crowe]

Disney buys Marvel


Off the top of my head my WTF moments were:

Red Hulk punching the Watcher
Wasp being eaten by Blob



Anything by Jeph Loeb.


Hiatus titles; CB and MI3, Immortal Iron Fist
X-men's Bishop goes off


FrankenCastle


doom using wikipedia


The cancellation of Jeff Parker's Exiles.

The cancellation of Paul Cornell's Captain Britain and MI:13.



These. Definitely these.

Also:
World's Most Wanted being overlong and going nowhere.
JMS leaving Thor due to Siege.
Captain America: Reborn and the time gun.
Diggle's Thunderbolts (looking forward to the Parker run like nobody's business).
Most of the X-line.

[Castel]

doom using wikipedia


Maybe he was just vandalizing Reed Richard's page.

Lool, good one. :biggrin:

While reading Ultimatum i sure said "What the f*ck" quite a lot.

Top "WTF" moments indeed, this crap really takes the cake.

[daviddonne]

Matt Fraction still having a job. I wonder if he has a male lover on the side who he gets to dress up as Cyclops for him... because judging by the way he writes, he is sending this message out loud and clear.

Utopia. I cannot BEGIN to pontificate on how utterly retarded this story was; made more painfully so because it had a fantastic set-up with a lot of moral grey areas. I had high hopes for it. But no, Fraction completely jobs the "bad" guys, makes the "Dark X-Men: The Beginning" mini completely pointless by turning Michael Pointer into a power junkie and eliminating all grey from the story, and trying to pass off the idea that it's okay to give the government the middle finger and form a new nation entirely when certain segments of the population (in this case, the mutant-haters) bring up the POSSIBILITY of passing a law that would hurt mutants. And here I thought the X-Men "protected a world that hated and feared them". My bad.

Emma Frost and Namor turning on Norman Osborn for absolutely no logical reason. I agree with Norman in his desire to kill both of these characters right now. Namor, at least, has a tiny bit of precedent, because Norman yelled at him; Emma just showed the world how much of a useless faux-Brit whore she really is under Fraction's pen, and I'm done with her.

Dark X-Men: The Confession. This book literally took every shred of possible decency that the trainwreck-we-call-Utopia had, and completely fucked it up beyond all belief. I literally lit this issue on fire after I was done reading it at home, because I didn't want it to infect my other comics with its sheer idiocy.

Dark Reign - The List: X-Men. What could've been a heartwrenching Namor story turned into yet another Fraction X-Men wank-off.

Wow, you have some issues. I don't know what Fraction's sexual orientation is, but I don't see how that has been addressed by his writing on the X-Men, and I don't know why you would care about that one way or the other.

But on topic, I don't think that Utopia was a flawless story, and I agree that the Dark X-Men was a bit of a bait and switch, but I personally feel like the Nation-X concept has a great deal of potential. It hasn't made much sense for the X-Men to continue as conventional superheroes for a long, long tim, so I think this is a cool new direction. I (like Cyclops) am well over the Xavier "protect a world that hated and feared them" idea, since it's never made a lot of sense or been productive at all, and it's high time they tried to merge Xavier's and Magneto's ideas in a way that might actually start to save their people for once. And in the context of Dark Reign, I think it makes a lot of sense for the X-Men to assert their strength and start to determine their own destiny rather than capitulate or keep trying to be renegades below the radar.

Are you really so politically conservative that you don't think its okay for the X-Men to defy Norman Osborn, just because he's manipulated his way into power? And it would have been more justified had he also yelled at them?

By the way, I also felt that Magneto bowing before Cyclops was a truly brilliant, well conceived story moment that solidified all that was happening.

[passer-by]

By the way, I also felt that Magneto bowing before Cyclops was a truly brilliant, well conceived story moment that solidified all that was happening.
Yeah, it started with diarrhea that turned into solid sh*t.
Fraction's run... on the X-Men.
On par with Millar's on the FF.
Miscasts of the year. Again.

[gforguava]

The Secret Invasion/Dark Reign One-Shot is still the big WTF for me.

The horrible art can't be overstated(especially on such an integral book), but what they did with Andreas was terrible on a level I rarely witness.

[Anxy]

Dark Reign sent me packin' from Marvel this year. I like innerconnectivity within the Marvel U, but their events seem to get more and more exhaustingly high-maintenance. I feel pretty estranged from the Avengers titles this year too. Just way too fragmented for my tastes. And I still don't think Wolvie needs to be a New Avenger, and I still don't think Spidey needs to be in a team, period. I'm sure they earn Marvel lotsa da casha being on that title, but the cash grab seems a little shameless to me. And that interferes with my wanting to invest in the stories this title wants to tell. I know the bottom line of any mainstream comic book is making money, but I think there's a way of separating us from our dollars without making us so painfully aware of it.

I attempted a very cautious reunion with Uncanny X-Men the second half of this year, because the Utopia storyline actually looked like it might have something going for it...but now Necrocea/Necrotia/howeveryouspellit appears to be yet another blah-de-blah crossover-hungry event in which I have precious little interest...and it appears to be gnawing away at New Mutants, a reboot which I had up until this point considered one of Marvel's quiet victories this year.

I don't even know WHAT the hell is going on with the Hulk titles, and when I read blurbs about those books on here, I don't want to know.

I had a great, great, GREAT time with the Old Man Logan story, until the ugly mess that was Giant Size Old Man Logan hit the shelves. WTF indeed!

I will say that I've seen a lot of really geektastic art come out of Marvel this year, but the writing is just not on par with the visuals. After the complete misery of art and writing that was the 90s, I guess being at least in a better place with the artwork is some small compensation.

At 2.99 - 5.99 a pop, though, we need better stories.

[spidarwin]

The entire Sisterhood arc of Uncanny X-Men was a whole lot of "WTF?". Try to follow the logic of Madelyne Pryor's plan. I dare you.

Wasn't that just an excuse to peddle more of Greg Land's tracing
from issues of Vogue, Cosmopolitan, People, or InStyle?

[Shinglepants]

The cancellation of Paul Cornell's Captain Britain and MI:13.

Yeah, thats my number one WTF moment of 2009. Rulk and FrankenCastle seem to pale in comparison.

[DetectiveDupin]

Ultimatum, probably the worst thing ever written in Marvel history.

Captain America not really being dead.

Disney buying Marvel.

Magneto bowing down to anyone, let alone Cyclops.

[jackolover]

Dark X-Men: The Confession. This book literally took every shred of possible decency that the trainwreck-we-call-Utopia had, and completely fucked it up beyond all belief. I literally lit this issue on fire after I was done reading it at home, because I didn't want it to infect my other comics with its sheer idiocy.

.

I love your enthusiasm for what you want, and don't want. Burning a book out of contempt is some radical sh**. I originally didn't like the start of the event, Utopia, but it grew on me. I think I could burn all the John Byrne Spider-Man reboot books. And "the Other".

[Mechano]

I love your enthusiasm for what you want, and don't want. Burning a book out of contempt is some radical sh**. I originally didn't like the start of the event, Utopia, but it grew on me. I think I could burn all the John Byrne Spider-Man reboot books. And "the Other".

does he realize fraction didn't write confession?

[CyberCoyote]

The Conclusion to Old Man Logan./Millar's FF /Did Punisher choke out Tigershark this year? That's up there with a Black Panther Silver Surfer arm bar/Norman in charge with the public and government adoring him/Red Hulk-apades. That's a list of it's own/The Sentry continues to be a complete WTF himself.:confused:

Disney buys Marvel /Hickman's FF about face :biggrin:

3.99 price hike :mad:

[Omega Alpha]

1) The Sisterhood story in Uncannny X-men
2) Doom bowing down. I mean, Magneto I could see doing it as a tactic for something, but DOOM?
3) Anything Ultimatum related
4) Frankencastle
5) Matt Fraction's UXM run in general.

Honorable mention to Loeb's Hulk. I haven't read a single issue, but I know for a fact he'd make the list if I did.

[DKR]

Another moment for me: Dark Regin and the concept. The public puts their trust in a well known psychopath and murderer who employs other psychopaths and murderers to "protect" them instead of the heroes who have saved the world time and time again? WTF?

[4sake]

95 % of Fraction writing on the X-Men....:frown: :mad:

[Bodhi M.]

I've got to go with Doom having a master, and then living for a million years after getting eaten by a prehistoric shark.

[tassa_kay]

Wow, you have some issues. I don't know what Fraction's sexual orientation is, but I don't see how that has been addressed by his writing on the X-Men, and I don't know why you would care about that one way or the other.

It's not me caring; it's me making an observation. It's how his writing reads to me, and I'm hardly the only person to hold that opinion. The only aspect of it that I care about is that the quality of the X-Men stories has gone down in the last year or so.


But on topic, I don't think that Utopia was a flawless story, and I agree that the Dark X-Men was a bit of a bait and switch, but I personally feel like the Nation-X concept has a great deal of potential. It hasn't made much sense for the X-Men to continue as conventional superheroes for a long, long tim, so I think this is a cool new direction. I (like Cyclops) am well over the Xavier "protect a world that hated and feared them" idea, since it's never made a lot of sense or been productive at all, and it's high time they tried to merge Xavier's and Magneto's ideas in a way that might actually start to save their people for once. And in the context of Dark Reign, I think it makes a lot of sense for the X-Men to assert their strength and start to determine their own destiny rather than capitulate or keep trying to be renegades below the radar.

The idea is, for the most part, sound. The execution of it, however, is completely ****** up. Utopia shot itself in the foot with the Dark X-Men: The Beginning mini, as Utopia itself pretty much ignored the plot points in the mini and took all the moral ambiguity of the story away with the Omega Machine. Then, when The Confession came out, the entire issue was dedicated to the idea that Cyke and Emma planned the entire affair the whole time after a entirely-too-melodramatic "confession", and that kinda cheapened the moment that Emma and Namor turned on Norman, at least for me.

Now, as far as their new isolationist/militaristic bent, again, the idea is a sound one, but the execution has been absolutely dreadful. Cyclops had no reason to go after Norman, because the entire problem could've been nipped in the bud if they'd just gotten out of Trask's way and let him talk. Now, Trask did goad some of the X-Men into a fight, but they could've just walked away and maintained the peace, because I personally think it would've been much smarter to work within the system as much as possible before deciding to make a break.

Then, when Cyke visited Norman, Norman did the same thing for him that he did for Emma when he called the Cabal together: keep the peace with your people, and I'll work with you. But no, Cyke had to call him out and then make him (and, by extension, the USA and HAMMER in general) look like a moron by trouncing him and his team... and he expects Norman, and America at large, to just leave it at that? Come on.

Like I said, I enjoy the idea, but the execution is wretched. To me. Obviously, YMMV.


Are you really so politically conservative that you don't think its okay for the X-Men to defy Norman Osborn, just because he's manipulated his way into power? And it would have been more justified had he also yelled at them?

What did Norman do, exactly, that warranted the X-Men "defying" him? You mean protecting the peace by moving in when San Francisco erupted into mass rioting? Trying to actually talk things about with Cyclops reasonably, and being pretty much spat on in return? Planting a mole (Emma) on his side specifically to sabotage him and the Dark X-Men team from within?

I can't imagine why I don't sympathize with Cyclops here.


By the way, I also felt that Magneto bowing before Cyclops was a truly brilliant, well conceived story moment that solidified all that was happening.

I haven't read any of "Nation X" yet, but I cannot wait to see this particular scene, because just that short descriptor made it sound somewhat ludicrous.

[KiplingKat]

I haven't read any of "Nation X" yet, but I cannot wait to see this particular scene, because just that short descriptor made it sound somewhat ludicrous.

It is. Utterly OOC ludicrous. Magneto is being a happy defeatist kiss-ass and Xavier and Cyclops have a complete role reversal.

[jackolover]

does he realize fraction didn't write confession?

Well, to be fair, he may not care if it's Kyle or Fraction. If it's Utopia, he may not like it if Brubaker or Diggle writes it. There seems to be a dislike of the whole concept of the X-Men being victimised and making them flee to form an off-shore colony?

[tassa_kay]

Or maybe it read like complete Cyke-and-Emma fanwank that I mistook it for Fraction. I'd check, but it's hard to make out letters from scattered ashes in the backyard. ;)

[worstblogever]

Wasn't that just an excuse to peddle more of Greg Land's tracing
from issues of Vogue, Cosmopolitan, People, or InStyle?

Yes. With the same extra arm being traced a few more times to get Spiral up to six total.

[AllisterH]

The idea is, for the most part, sound. The execution of it, however, is completely ****** up. Utopia shot itself in the foot with the Dark X-Men: The Beginning mini, as Utopia itself pretty much ignored the plot points in the mini and took all the moral ambiguity of the story away with the Omega Machine. Then, when The Confession came out, the entire issue was dedicated to the idea that Cyke and Emma planned the entire affair the whole time after a entirely-too-melodramatic "confession", and that kinda cheapened the moment that Emma and Namor turned on Norman, at least for me.

Now, as far as their new isolationist/militaristic bent, again, the idea is a sound one, but the execution has been absolutely dreadful. Cyclops had no reason to go after Norman, because the entire problem could've been nipped in the bud if they'd just gotten out of Trask's way and let him talk. Now, Trask did goad some of the X-Men into a fight, but they could've just walked away and maintained the peace, because I personally think it would've been much smarter to work within the system as much as possible before deciding to make a break.

Then, when Cyke visited Norman, Norman did the same thing for him that he did for Emma when he called the Cabal together: keep the peace with your people, and I'll work with you. But no, Cyke had to call him out and then make him (and, by extension, the USA and HAMMER in general) look like a moron by trouncing him and his team... and he expects Norman, and America at large, to just leave it at that? Come on.

Like I said, I enjoy the idea, but the execution is wretched. To me. Obviously, YMMV.



What did Norman do, exactly, that warranted the X-Men "defying" him? You mean protecting the peace by moving in when San Francisco erupted into mass rioting? Trying to actually talk things about with Cyclops reasonably, and being pretty much spat on in return? Planting a mole (Emma) on his side specifically to sabotage him and the Dark X-Men team from within?

I can't imagine why I don't sympathize with Cyclops here.



.

THANK YOU.

WE probably disagree on a lot of things but this one, I had THE EXACT same reaction as you.

Seriously, has there EVER been a government official that dealt with the mutants as fairly as Norman? All Norman secret deal with Emma was

"Hey, don't make a mess out there in San Fran and I'll be quite happy to ignore you".

Really, isn't this what the X-men have always wanted from the government and looking back at th elast 20 years of X-men interaction with the government, this is ironicaly the most fair and balanced deal the mutants have EVER gotten.

What do they do then?

Allow themselves to be baited by Trask and cause a city wide riot. Yet, Norman is the evil dude because he came down heavy on them ]of course, this ignores the fact that Norman was actually impartial and pretty much was an equal opportunity asshole given what he did to Trask.

What made it worse was Cyclops turning it into mutants vs humans AGAIN, even though

a) Trask followers came from outside of the city
b) Looking at the actual people involved, it seems like the X-men had a significant number of supporters from the normal human population of San Fran.

So how is this an example of the "evil humans"?

[Omega Alpha]

THANK YOU.

WE probably disagree on a lot of things but this one, I had THE EXACT same reaction as you.

Seriously, has there EVER been a government official that dealt with the mutants as fairly as Norman? All Norman secret deal with Emma was

"Hey, don't make a mess out there in San Fran and I'll be quite happy to ignore you".

Really, isn't this what the X-men have always wanted from the government and looking back at th elast 20 years of X-men interaction with the government, this is ironicaly the most fair and balanced deal the mutants have EVER gotten.

What do they do then?

Allow themselves to be baited by Trask and cause a city wide riot. Yet, Norman is the evil dude because he came down heavy on them ]of course, this ignores the fact that Norman was actually impartial and pretty much was an equal opportunity asshole given what he did to Trask.

What made it worse was Cyclops turning it into mutants vs humans AGAIN, even though

a) Trask followers came from outside of the city
b) Looking at the actual people involved, it seems like the X-men had a significant number of supporters from the normal human population of San Fran.

So how is this an example of the "evil humans"?

I haven't enjoyed Utopia (I even dropped UXM afterwards), but it is silly to believe that Norman did really planned on leaving mutants alone for long, made it obvious by the fact that HOURS after it begun he already had an entire team of otherwise unconnected individuals assembled.

And Scott made the right thing provoking him, both because Osborn was trying to control mutantkind and because it helped made him out of his mind. If he was a reasonable person, he'd just ignore it (do you see someone like Fury or Stark going mad about it like Norman did), but in his case is showed a weak point of his in his arrogance.

Mind you, I'm not contesting things like Beast and a few others stopping Trask's march, as well as Trask's reaction later. I can even imagine him thinking:

"YES, I made humans see mutants as the menace they are! I have the government watching and controlling them now! I gathered sympathy for my movement and more mutant fear!
But NO! I will kill humans and force them to be technorganic slaves to kill mutants! That will make me close to my objective!".

[tassa_kay]

I haven't enjoyed Utopia (I even dropped UXM afterwards), but it is silly to believe that Norman did really planned on leaving mutants alone for long, made it obvious by the fact that HOURS after it begun he already had an entire team of otherwise unconnected individuals assembled.

It's called a contingency plan, dear. Norman would be pretty much an idiot if he DIDN'T have a back-up plan in place in case the X-Men, or any other mutants, decided that they didn't want to play nice.


And Scott made the right thing provoking him, both because Osborn was trying to control mutantkind and because it helped made him out of his mind. If he was a reasonable person, he'd just ignore it (do you see someone like Fury or Stark going mad about it like Norman did), but in his case is showed a weak point of his in his arrogance.

Oh, so wrong. How was Osborn trying to control mutantkind, exactly? The Omega Machine? Logically, it makes sense to use if one has to detain mutants, a notoriously difficult-to-detain group of people. And the mutants (along WITH Trask) started it, anyway.

What would you rather Norman have done? Line up all the captured mutants and have them shot?

[Omega Alpha]

It's called a contingency plan, dear. Norman would be pretty much an idiot if he DIDN'T have a back-up plan in place in case the X-Men, or any other mutants, decided that they didn't want to play nice.

A back up plan, my ass. He was just waiting for an excuse. And do you actually think Norman really intended to leave Doom, Namor and Loki alone, for that matter?



Oh, so wrong. How was Osborn trying to control mutantkind, exactly? The Omega Machine? Logically, it makes sense to use if one has to detain mutants, a notoriously difficult-to-detain group of people. And the mutants (along WITH Trask) started it, anyway.

What would you rather Norman have done? Line up all the captured mutants and have them shot?

Norman was trying to make his X-men the sole representative of mutantkind and have every other mutant that doesn't follow him dead or in jail. Short of concentration camps, that's as dictatorial as it gets.

In other words, think Osborn could be any good for mutantkind and didn't intend to screw them over eventually just ignores everything ever established about the character.

[El Castigador]

lets all pray to the comic gods to make all these bad things go away

[Omega Alpha]

lets all pray to the comic gods to make all these bad things go away

Amen, brother!

[Robert318]

Secret Invasion.

It wasnt a secret..... they reavealed themselves.

Yeah, welcome to 2009. That happened in 2008. And if you missed the whole "they were here before anyone knew it" portion of the storyline, you really missed out.

[jackolover]

Or maybe it read like complete Cyke-and-Emma fanwank that I mistook it for Fraction. I'd check, but it's hard to make out letters from scattered ashes in the backyard. ;)

LOL. Touche'

[jackolover]

Oh, so wrong. How was Osborn trying to control mutantkind, exactly? The Omega Machine? Logically, it makes sense to use if one has to detain mutants, a notoriously difficult-to-detain group of people. And the mutants (along WITH Trask) started it, anyway.

What would you rather Norman have done? Line up all the captured mutants and have them shot?

Well, it looks like we learn what policy Norman Osborn has for errant mutants. Depower them.

And I can't accept that Scott and Emma were in on a plan to infiltrate the Cabal. Emma flat out admits she was sorry for not telling Scott about it. Scott was surprised when Emma appeared in Utopia, and he had to extrapolate what Emma was trying to do, on the run. I don't think Scott knew where this was going and he had to make a stand when the rioting started. Sure, Scott could have put mutant police on every corner in SF to make sure mutants don't act up, but that would be counter productive. Should Scott have anticipated the riots once Trasks demonstrators appeared in SF? I think that was the Mayors prerogative, not the mutants.

[Omega Alpha]

Well, it looks like we learn what policy Norman Osborn has for errant mutants. Depower them.

And I can't accept that Scott and Emma were in on a plan to infiltrate the Cabal. Emma flat out admits she was sorry for not telling Scott about it. Scott was surprised when Emma appeared in Utopia, and he had to extrapolate what Emma was trying to do, on the run.

No, he wasn't surprised AT ALL. Re-read the issue (or not; better not, since Utopia sucked). In fact, that's what gave away Fraction's "shocking" twist to most readers (though many, me included, already believed that).

[Elijah Dexan]

"YES, I made humans see mutants as the menace they are! I have the government watching and controlling them now! I gathered sympathy for my movement and more mutant fear!
But NO! I will kill humans and force them to be technorganic slaves to kill mutants! That will make me close to my objective!".

That was a huge WTF for me as well. The X-offices just couldn't have a human character with semi-reasonable goals. They instead turn him into "GAWR! Assimilate all flesh!" As you mentioned it was pointless at this point since he could of just played the Dark Avengers against the X-Men.

I also don't understand how the riots got so out of hand. All hell just broke lose between mutants and Trask's Humanity Now group. I mean shouldn't well trained super powered beings easily subdue middle aged Republicans?

[tassa_kay]

A back up plan, my ass. He was just waiting for an excuse. And do you actually think Norman really intended to leave Doom, Namor and Loki alone, for that matter?

Show me proof. Because there isn't a shred of evidence to suggest ANY of that.


Norman was trying to make his X-men the sole representative of mutantkind and have every other mutant that doesn't follow him dead or in jail. Short of concentration camps, that's as dictatorial as it gets.

LOL! So why didn't Norman take Cyclops down when Cyclops went to see him alone? For that matter, why didn't Norman just drop his people right on top of Greymalkin Industries and let God sort out the details? Because he was trying to work with the X-Men to restore the peace.


In other words, think Osborn could be any good for mutantkind and didn't intend to screw them over eventually just ignores everything ever established about the character.

Really? I wasn't aware that Norman had any particularly nefarious plans for mutantkind, or even that such a thing was so much as alluded to.

Come back with some proof if you're really gonna try to argue this, because the story itself shows exactly the opposite.

[jackolover]

No, he wasn't surprised AT ALL. Re-read the issue (or not; better not, since Utopia sucked). In fact, that's what gave away Fraction's "shocking" twist to most readers (though many, me included, already believed that).

I may have miss-read that but I was convinced Scott knew nothing about Emmas Dark X-Men.

[tassa_kay]

I may have miss-read that but I was convinced Scott knew nothing about Emmas Dark X-Men.

Dark X-Men: The Confession takes places before Utopia timeline-wise, so Scott and Emma were privy to each other's secrets when Stormin' Norman came to town. Combine that with comments made by Emma and Cyclops after the reveal in Utopia about "the plan", and it's pretty evident that they had planned it since before Norman showed up.

[Rolltideguy77]

Spider-Man's mystical secret identity thingy. LOL I don't even really get it. I think if Spidey removes his mask people still see him as Spidey or some stupid crap.

[tassa_kay]

Spider-Man's mystical secret identity thingy. LOL I don't even really get it. I think if Spidey removes his mask people still see him as Spidey or some stupid crap.

Well, I have "American Son" here in hard-back, and it's actually a pretty big plot point in the fourth issue about getting Spider-Man's mask off (granted, he was wearing a mask of unstable molecules made for him by Reed), and in the final issue, where he literally has to make a makeshift mask, it's almost revealed as well... but Harry Osborn actually refused to look, even though the American Son armor could easily reveal Peter's identity.

Heh. Seems when he isn't mystically protected, luck's still on his side.

[jackolover]

Dark X-Men: The Confession takes places before Utopia timeline-wise, so Scott and Emma were privy to each other's secrets when Stormin' Norman came to town. Combine that with comments made by Emma and Cyclops after the reveal in Utopia about "the plan", and it's pretty evident that they had planned it since before Norman showed up.

No, the Confessions book occurs after the Dark Avengers/X-Men Exodus book, because it says so in the second page that Confessions continues after it. So to me that says that Scott didn't know what Emma was doing.

[tassa_kay]

Double-check your issue. My issue of Confessions says on the Previously... page, and I quote, "This story takes place prior to the events in DARK AVENGERS/UNCANNY X-MEN: UTOPIA."

[AllisterH]

What annoyed me about Utopia was that I thought San Fran was the freshest thing the X-books have done in literally decades.

One of the problems I have with the X-men mythos is that for all the talk about living and working together, you never see THAT actually happening. Mutants either get wiped out or they replace regular humans or they basically live in their own little spheres (such as Genosha and Asteroid M)

San Fran was interesting in that you had mutants openly living and working with normal humans (and I must admit, if there is one city in America that this could fly in, it would definitely be San Fran IMO. Not even New York could match that)

[jackolover]

Double-check your issue. My issue of Confessions says on the Previously... page, and I quote, "This story takes place prior to the events in DARK AVENGERS/UNCANNY X-MEN: UTOPIA."

I can see what made me confused. In Exodus it had that exerpt as 7 days ago. In Confession it had on the frontage page it was before DA/UXM U. I may have missed that. At least that's my excuse. Thanks for clearing that up.

[nikbackm]

What annoyed me about Utopia was that I thought San Fran was the freshest thing the X-books have done in literally decades.

One of the problems I have with the X-men mythos is that for all the talk about living and working together, you never see THAT actually happening. Mutants either get wiped out or they replace regular humans or they basically live in their own little spheres (such as Genosha and Asteroid M)

San Fran was interesting in that you had mutants openly living and working with normal humans (and I must admit, if there is one city in America that this could fly in, it would definitely be San Fran IMO. Not even New York could match that)

They will not be leaving SF.

[tassa_kay]

They will not be leaving SF.

Um, they did leave. To Utopia. ;)

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Hiatus titles; CB and MI3, Immortal Iron Fist


Agreed. Neither of these should have been mothballed at the point they both were.

[HulkSmash!]

Secret Invasion.

It wasnt a secret..... they reavealed themselves.

And the Dire Wraiths did it better 20-odd years ago, dammit!:evilsmile:

~G., who has a SECRET INVASION #1 with Buscema Rom sketch on the front cover, and Michael Golden Dire Wraith sketch on back!

[HulkSmash!]

A WTF moment that's not about the content of the books themselves, that DIDN'T make me stop reading: in the name of sales, Marvel splits the HULK book in twain, continuing the numbering of the Loeb run while spinning off INCREDIBLE HULK with #600 because all the previous numbering schemes apparently added together. I mean, it's true that HULK fans are no stranger to wacky renumbering schemes, perhaps more than other titles (the original 6, then the ASTONISH takeover, and even 2007's title change to INCREDIBLE HERCULES), but...yikes! (And just imagine figuring out how to FILE those books!)

Just a WTF in general: incentive variants. In ludicrous numbers! 1:200? 1:250? I can see big events drawing orders like these, but titles that aren't quite as popular doing it just to 'compete'?

Umm, you want story WTF's? Norman Osborn growing beyond his humble roots as a Spidey villain. For this he was brought back during the Clone Saga? To turn him into year 2000 era Lex Luthor? *sigh* And from the looks of SIEGE I don't think it'll be Spidey who brings him down. Quadruple sigh. Thanks to "Dark Reign" this purist just dropped quite a bit of the Marvel line.

~G.

[nikbackm]

Um, they did leave. To Utopia. ;)

Yes, but Utopia is just outside of SF, and they still have contacts among the authorities there.

This is what Fraction had to say (http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=7178&page=19#Item_16) about it:


Will the X-Men still be associated with the city of San Francisco now that they have relocated from Graymalkin Industries to Utopia? It feels as if their stay there would have been cut too short otherwise.

yes-- utopia's just offshore, don't forget, but a lot of NATION X is about reconciling what the island means to SF and what SF means to the island. They're not sequestered there or shut in, and as we move along in the arc we'll be seeing tensions on both sides rising and falling accordingly. I like 'em in San Francisco. They ain't leaving.

[blehbeh]

I didn't hate Millar's FF run as a whole as much as others did....

..but Million Year Old Doom is perhaps one of the dumbest Marvel Comics moments ever.

[strathcona]

I didn't hate Millar's FF run as a whole as much as others did....

..but Million Year Old Doom is perhaps one of the dumbest Marvel Comics moments ever.

What's this all about? I keep seeing references to it in this thread, but I dropped Millar's FF after 2 issues, so I don't have a clue what he did with Doom.

Man, it seems I am only interested in what they did with Doom (or could it be more that Doom was only being handled by bad writers this year so I didn't really see him much, and am just now finding out how badly he was written... Outside of Captain Britain).

[Iron Maiden]

What's this all about? I keep seeing references to it in this thread, but I dropped Millar's FF after 2 issues, so I don't have a clue what he did with Doom.)

You're wiser than I am. I stuck with it and hoped Millar would somehow make the whole MOD storyline work.



Man, it seems I am only interested in what they did with Doom (or could it be more that Doom was only being handled by bad writers this year so I didn't really see him much, and am just now finding out how badly he was written... Outside of Captain Britain).

Yeah, the problem with Doom over the years is that he's a character that a lot of writers want to get their hands on him and sometimes to no good end.

The whole MOD thing ties in vaguely with Millar's Old Man Logan and "1985"
Clyde Wyncham is an alternate universe's first superhuman or mutant. He has uber powers one of which allows him to travel across dimensions. He became brain damaged when his mother hit him on the head. She was frightened by his display of powers. He gets put into a nursing home and later his comic book collection gets sold. He finds out when his childhood friend came to visit him at the home. Soon some supervillians from the MU start to show up at his former home, now deserted. Doom is among them but he does not participate with the others when they begin to attack and kill people in the city. At one point, even Galactus shows up. Anyway, the son of Clyde's friend finds the portal and brings back all the heroes. They save the day and Reed takes Clyde back with him to the MU.

Later on in the FF, we learn that Reed merely kept him warehoused in a facility in the SW under the desert (I think Marvel Boy was once kept there in Morrison's run). He's kept sedated for years apparently because in the future of Old Man Logan, some of the supervillains unwittingly turn him loose. He revives and kills them, goes off on his own travelling through the mutiverses. His powers grow and he takes his pleasure destroying a multiverse while being accompanied by a mysterious apprentice.

Meanwhile back in the MU, Doom had been tossed in a prison cell at the Hague for killing Future Sue in an earlier Millar arc. He taunts Reed by telling him his Master is coming and boy, are you going to get it. As part of his deal with the Cabal, Norman sets Doom loose and he returns to Latveria, apparently to plan the big homecoming party for MOD. MOD arrives and is not impressed by the cheering crowds, etc. He tells Doom that he is a failure and blasts him with an energy burst. Doom fights back and appears to win after a prolonged battle that eventually involved getting the FF on his side. At the end, Reed is dead and Doom is married to a Sue that is carrying his child. This Sue then morphs into the Mysterious Apprentice who tells him they've just been toying with him and no real time has passed at all. MOD turns his heart to stone and his blood to acid. While he is dying, he and the apprentice decide to dump his body in the prehistoric past. He is seen about to be devoured in an ocean full of megladons.

To cut to the part about Doom's return....the MOD turns his attention to the FF and they fight it out. Ben goes to the facility that holds Clyde and brings him to NYC. Clyde is the MOD in the past and his powers are almost as strong but he is defeated. The FF are powered up (it gets complicated, just go with it) and they put the MOD on the ropes. The apprentice reveals himself to be Doom and he gives him the killing blow. Then he tells the FF how he survived:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y195/IronMaiden99/MB%20comic%20Scans/FF569p24.jpg

[blehbeh]

What's this all about? I keep seeing references to it in this thread, but I dropped Millar's FF after 2 issues, so I don't have a clue what he did with Doom.

Man, it seems I am only interested in what they did with Doom (or could it be more that Doom was only being handled by bad writers this year so I didn't really see him much, and am just now finding out how badly he was written... Outside of Captain Britain).

What made it so awful was not the concept itself (which is still a little silly, but this is superhero comics), but how it was handled by Marvel. They allowed this DRASTIC change to happen to a character who was in the middle of playing a major role in a company-wide crossover. It got so lost in the mix due to Marvel's poor organization of their line, that it seems like they might just be outright ignoring it from now on.

[Monty_Cristo]

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=295567

[Iron Maiden]

What made it so awful was not the concept itself (which is still a little silly, but this is superhero comics), but how it was handled by Marvel. They allowed this DRASTIC change to happen to a character who was in the middle of playing a major role in a company-wide crossover. It got so lost in the mix due to Marvel's poor organization of their line, that it seems like they might just be outright ignoring it from now on.

I can't understand that either. Tom B. is usually a better editor then that and I thought Joe Q says they always discuss all this stuff at their summits. Maybe Millar is too much of a loose cannon and they just indulge him. I wish I kept the link but there was something about an MB that was frequented by some Marvel insiders and they said that there are certain writers that refuse any sort of editing on their work. They never said specifically who they were. For all his faults, I don't think a Jim Shooter would have allowed it to happen.