CBR: Permanent Damage - Nov 11, 2009 [Archive]

Lamar

11-11-2009, 04:00 PM

I've been saying this for at least 20 years, perhaps longer. Once you start deconstructing a genre, that genre is essentially dead. Deconstruction is basically the autopsy of genre.

Of course, you could say the same thing about detective fiction, or science fiction, or Tolkienesque fantasy fiction, and the so-called "urban fantasy" genre is getting there, too, if not there already. The western got there sometime in the '50s or '60s.

I think one of the things that has contributed to the stagnation of the superhero genre is the growth and increasing cultishness of fandom, combined with the fact that the creative offices have been filled with former and current fanboys and the business offices have been filled with corporate beancounters. The comics industry in the US has long been more incestuous than the family of an 18th dynasty pharaoh.

The rise of the comic book shop in the late '70s and early '80s may have seemed like a godsend to geeks, but it just helped further ghettoize a hobby that was generally ghettoized to begin with, which just further helped mix the cult's Kool-Aid.

Unfortunately, I've yet to find anything that really fills the same niche in my soul that comics -- superhero comics in particular, but all comics -- used to fill.

L.

Mark Dykeman

11-11-2009, 06:10 PM

Steven, what you're saying seems to apply quite well to North American comics, possibly Europe as well. But what about Asia? They've successfully introduced new super-hero type characters for years, although they tend to flourish in video games, CCGs, and TV shows. But manga is still strong in Japan, isn't it?

krushjudgement

11-12-2009, 03:49 AM

What about Hellboy? He looks to have some staying power.

It is disturbing that I can only think of one example.

The new trend is gritty "realistic" superheroes who get their asses kicked.

-The Michael Rapaport flick "Special"
-"Kick Ass"
-Woody Harrelson's "Defendor"
-And I was participating in this trend without even realizing it: "King of Pain" http://westcritic.blogspot.com/2009/07/king-of-pain-1-full-issue.html

Existentialman

11-12-2009, 11:17 AM

Invincible is another character that undermines this argument. I think it's more about the industry being incestuous with it's own creations, rather than a lack of creativity or desire on the part of readers to look at new superheroes. Look at how many Superman, Batman and Spiderman family titles are released each month. If you're a fan of one of these characters that uses up a lot of your comic budget each month. Then look at all the knock off Superman or Batman type characters like Irredeemable or the Authority. Sentry is mentioned in the article as an argument against the success of new superheroes, whereas I would argue that Sentry is Marvel's knock off of Superman and an example of how knock offs of old characters push new characters to the sidelines making their survival that much more difficult.

Steven Grant

11-12-2009, 03:04 PM

Invincible is another character that undermines this argument.

No, he really isn't. I like Invincible, and I think Kirkman is doing interesting things with the book, but he really is just another Superman knock-off at core. Or maybe Superboy knockoff.

The book has continued for several years now, I'll give it that.

- Grant

scratchie

11-13-2009, 07:38 AM

What would it take to get the writers of America to start using "disinterested" correctly?

Maybe we could buy some billboards in major cities that say "'Disinterested' and 'Uninterested' are two different words! They mean different things!"

Do you think that would work?

Jon in Austin

11-17-2009, 11:52 AM

Hi Steven - Long time reader, first time poster. Great column this week. I'm 40 and am finding that although the monthly titles, particularly super-hero titles, are trying very hard to keep me engaged, the strategy is starting to fail miserably. Feels like I've read it all before...there's no real effort, it seems, for companies like DC to do anything original or creative any more. Last title I really enjoyed was Y: The Last Man and even that was a simple concept, although brilliantly executed.

I can afford to buy monthlies at $3.99 and up, but my purchases are dropping to a trickle because the quality is so weak. If/when they start to lose customers like me, what's the future for these companies and franchises?

krushjudgement

11-17-2009, 02:00 PM

I can afford to buy monthlies at $3.99 and up, but my purchases are dropping to a trickle because the quality is so weak. If/when they start to lose customers like me, what's the future for these companies and franchises?

They're going to have to go after the kids playing video games. Expect to see more Gears of War, Halo etc...

Steven Grant

11-17-2009, 04:33 PM

They're going to have to go after the kids playing video games. Expect to see more Gears of War, Halo etc...

Why? Video games are dying on the vine these days.

- Grant

FunkyGreenJerusalem

11-17-2009, 04:37 PM

Why? Video games are dying on the vine these days.

- Grant

You mean adaptations or the games themselves?

Because the best sellers are selling heaps more than before.

The one's that flop are very usually inferior products.

krushjudgement

11-17-2009, 07:38 PM

You mean adaptations or the games themselves?

Because the best sellers are selling heaps more than before.

The one's that flop are very usually inferior products.

First off, in reply to Mr. Grant: Video games are not "dying on a vine." They are a huge cash-cow.

Secondly, in reply to FGJ, what I mean is that video games are where the youth and money are at these days. That is a target market not afraid to spend money.

Steven Grant

11-17-2009, 08:15 PM

First off, in reply to Mr. Grant: Video games are not "dying on a vine." They are a huge cash-cow.

Not recently. The market for new videogames is off dramatically, not that it has stopped anyone from releasing them. Except the videogame producers going out of business, of course.

- Grant

Steven Grant

11-17-2009, 08:23 PM

You mean adaptations or the games themselves?

Because the best sellers are selling heaps more than before.

The one's that flop are very usually inferior products.

Mmmm... not really. For instance, GUITAR HERO THE BEATLES, for all the promotion they put into it, tanked as a videogame, and everyone I know who has played it says it's fabulous. (The accompanying CD release of old Beatles material did well, though, or at least that's what I was told.) Seems to me one of the major vg franchises - DOOM, was it? Or HALO? Something that at one time was huge beyond belief... - decided releasing their latest entry would be a waste of effort. I could probably dig up more if I had any kind of attention span for that sort of thing... But videogame company stocks have been tanking as well, and not just because all stocks tanked...

- Grant

FunkyGreenJerusalem

11-17-2009, 08:57 PM

Mmmm... not really. For instance, GUITAR HERO THE BEATLES, for all the promotion they put into it, tanked as a videogame, and everyone I know who has played it says it's fabulous.

Well, it's ROCK BAND, which is Guitar Heroes lesser rival - Guitar Hero has better instruments - and it is fun to play, but it's quite different to the other games of that genre in terms of how it plays - The Beatles songs are quite simplistic compared to The Mars Volta one's for instance.

(The accompanying CD release of old Beatles material did well, though, or at least that's what I was told.)

I'm pretty sure the game was released as an ad for the remastered editions.
Try and get the kids wanting to hear Beatles before playing it.

Seems to me one of the major vg franchises - DOOM, was it? Or HALO? Something that at one time was huge beyond belief... - decided releasing their latest entry would be a waste of effort. I could probably dig up more if I had any kind of attention span for that sort of thing... But videogame company stocks have been tanking as well, and not just because all stocks tanked...

- Grant

Well Halo released a real-time strategy game late last year (or early this one), and has just released another first person shooter one, Halo:ODST*... So maybe it was Doom that got pulled - but that's kind of what I meant with the quality first angle, a bad game in a series can really be the end of that series, video game players are a lot less likely to keep following something that is getting worse than fans in other mediums.

I just find it hard to believe that with the amount of gaming units in people's homes that the games are dying on the vines... some might be, but the hits are massive.

*Can't comment on game, as I'm not big on the first person shooter (well, I'm really crap at them), but they did a live action trailer which makes you wish it was a movie, not a game... like how you see the trailer for Avatar and think 'I'd like to play that' as opposed to 'I want to watch that'.

krushjudgement

11-17-2009, 09:02 PM

I'm telling you guys, video game comics are the next big thing. I could be wrong, but we'll see.

Also:

http://kotaku.com/5185277/gamestop-reports-record-2008-more-stores-imminent

http://kotaku.com/5264225/gamestop-reports-record-quarter-as-used-game-sales-flourish

Steven Grant

11-17-2009, 11:00 PM

I'm pretty sure the game was released as an ad for the remastered editions.

It wasn't. Quite the opposite. They were expecting to make a fortune off the game, and didn't figure the remasters would do all that well, since most people already have Beatles records if they want them. The remasters were basically a way of getting old farts to buy the game for their kids.

I just find it hard to believe that with the amount of gaming units in people's homes that the games are dying on the vines... some might be, but the hits are massive.

Maybe, but the hits are fewer and farther between, and most games are really just the same game. It doesn't take all that long to figure that out and get bored with the lot of them, no matter what gaming system you've got.

Plus they cost a lot of money, in a day when money's far less easy to come by.

- Grant

Steven Grant

11-17-2009, 11:02 PM

I'm telling you guys, video game comics are the next big thing. I could be wrong, but we'll see.

Not sure what you mean by videogame comics. Comics based on videogames? They've been doing them for years? Videogames with comics(-like) stories in them? Ditto.

- Grant

FunkyGreenJerusalem

11-17-2009, 11:10 PM

It wasn't. Quite the opposite. They were expecting to make a fortune off the game, and didn't figure the remasters would do all that well, since most people already have Beatles records if they want them. The remasters were basically a way of getting old farts to buy the game for their kids.

Really?
Because a lot of bands who had been associated with Guitar Hero were getting sales boosts flowing on from people discovering their music from the game.

I myself never knew Wings 'Band On The Run' had two pretty good sections before it got to the 'Band On The Run' part.

Maybe, but the hits are fewer and farther between, and most games are really just the same game. It doesn't take all that long to figure that out and get bored with the lot of them, no matter what gaming system you've got.

The games that don't sell tend to be just like every other game, because they are just attempts to replicate the hits of other games.

Modern Warfare 2 just sold 4.7 million in it's first 24 hrs in the US and UK.
That's a tidy bit of profit - people might not by the crappy games that much, but the hits make a lot of money, and sell big numbers.

Plus they cost a lot of money, in a day when money's far less easy to come by.

- Grant

Well, in Australian Dollars, it costs me twenty bucks to see a move that goes for two hours, or $100 bucks to get a game that could take me more than twenty hours...
(And that's ignoring how bad I am at games, and that I usually wait for a game to drop in price before getting it).

Upfront they cost a bit, but they are pretty good when compared to the dollars to hours of entertainment you'll get.

krushjudgement

11-17-2009, 11:13 PM

Not sure what you mean by videogame comics. Comics based on videogames? They've been doing them for years? Videogames with comics(-like) stories in them? Ditto.

- Grant

Both.

More of them.

And I know.

bartl

11-17-2009, 11:24 PM

I can afford to buy monthlies at $3.99 and up, but my purchases are dropping to a trickle because the quality is so weak. If/when they start to lose customers like me, what's the future for these companies and franchises?
I came to that conclusion about a decade ago; I went from spending about $120 a month to close to zero. Graphic novels that I get from libraries constitute most of my comic book reading these days.

Michael P

11-18-2009, 05:07 AM

Both.

More of them.

And I know.

Given the lackluster sales on books like Halo and World of Warcraft, why would companies bother releasing more?

Charles RB

11-18-2009, 06:18 AM

I just find it hard to believe that with the amount of gaming units in people's homes that the games are dying on the vines...

Same here - I can believe they're not doing as well as they used to (especially not crap ones), but not that the medium itself is dying.

re the cost, I still play Dreamcast games I bought nine years ago; if I spread the cost over nine years, I've practically stolen the things.

Given the lackluster sales on books like Halo and World of Warcraft, why would companies bother releasing more?

They are though. Either they're selling more outside of the direct market, or Marvel & DC are assuming sales will pick up soon.

NatGertler

11-18-2009, 08:18 AM

First off, I'm not sure that sales on Halo and World Of Warcraft comics were as bad as you might think; those are books with specific interests that may well have sold healthy numbers. The games are also international releases, and may generate good dollars licensing out foreign editions.
But if you want to talk real success - the longest contiguously-running other-media license currently in comics that I can think of is a video game license. Sonic the Hedgehog is past issue 200.

badMike

11-18-2009, 09:47 AM

http://kotaku.com/5185277/gamestop-reports-record-2008-more-stores-imminent

http://kotaku.com/5264225/gamestop-reports-record-quarter-as-used-game-sales-flourishSo, I skimmed these articles. If I were a stock buying person -- and GameStop offered it -- I'd probably buy into it and keep my eye on the inevitable Blockbuster-style crash. But Blockbuster took a long time to go down in flames, too.

These articles seemed more boosterism than reportage, so I found this snippet in the second one most interesting:

a slight drop in new game sales bolstered by a significant rise in used products.To me, that would lend credence to what Steven's saying. The reason I say this is a boosterism article is that it doesn't give a number for "slight drop," which would imply the drop is more than that. People aren't buying new games, but luckily GameStop set up a business plan that includes a heavy reliance on selling older, cheaper, used product.

GameStop might do well because of it, but this indicates there's a problem for the game manufacturers.

But, I'm going off just what I read here. I don't know anything else about the business.

Steven Grant

11-18-2009, 10:16 AM

The reason I say this is a boosterism article is that it doesn't give a number for "slight drop," which would imply the drop is more than that. People aren't buying new games, but luckily GameStop set up a business plan that includes a heavy reliance on selling older, cheaper, used product.

That's true. I see a hell of a lot more kids in GameStop and GameCrazy buying old games (most of the time they work perfectly fine) than I see in WalMart or Fry's buying new ones. The new game section at Fry's used to be a constant madhouse and now it's always like a ghost town when I'm in there, and the rest of the store still does gangbusters. (The computer components section is almost always a crowd nightmare with ransacked shelves, whether I go in at 8:30 AM or 4 in the afternoon...)

- Grant

krushjudgement

11-18-2009, 10:25 AM

Given the lackluster sales on books like Halo and World of Warcraft, why would companies bother releasing more?

Everywhere I go, those books are sold out.

And as far as Game Stop having a slight dip in new sales, that's because everyone is taking a hit right now.

I'm telling you guys, there is money in video games. I can't believe we're even arguing this. Call of Duty MW2 just sold nearly 5 million copies at 50 bucks a pop, and Marvel and DC have a hard time cracking 200,000 at $3.99 with anything.

I'd just like to volunteer my services right now to write the CoD comic book adaptation! :)

badMike

11-18-2009, 11:21 AM

Call of Duty MW2 just sold nearly 5 million copies at 50 bucks a pop, and Marvel and DC have a hard time cracking 200,000 at $3.99 with anything.

I'd just like to volunteer my services right now to write the CoD comic book adaptation! :)Are comic books based on video games sold in stores like GameStop? I don't see how just because somebody bought a video game at a GameStop, that they'd then rush to their local comic book store -- provided they even HAVE one nearby -- to buy a comic book based on it, unless they were already predisposed to buy comics anyway.

Now, making comic books based on video games and selling them cheap at the counter of a GameStop might be an intriguing business idea.

Also, regarding these comic books being "sold out" in your store, the operative question to ask is how many copies of each comic is the store buying? If it's 2, then that's not a gangbusters business idea. If it's 200, then maybe.

Charles RB

11-18-2009, 11:37 AM

But if you want to talk real success - the longest contiguously-running other-media license currently in comics that I can think of is a video game license. Sonic the Hedgehog is past issue 200.

Not only that, it's Archie's best-selling 32-page format title. Archie's Archie titles only sell better in digest form.

The UK's Sonic the Comic lasted 223 issues (fortnightly), and the main reason it died off is the management decision to start using reprinted strips. (They didn't do that because of sales, they did that because the comic was five years old and they figured "now we can reprint because nobody from those days is still reading!". Which they were.)

krushjudgement

11-18-2009, 11:44 AM

king mob

11-18-2009, 11:58 AM

Steven, what you're saying seems to apply quite well to North American comics, possibly Europe as well.

In the UK comics are stable, but unhealthy compared to a decade or so ago if you're talking about superhero comics, comics generally are still diverse enough to encompass everything from The Dandy to 2000AD to Viz to whatever graphic novel Waterstones is pushing this week.

In Europe comics are still looking to be inhabiting the same markets as before, which means American superhero comics are still a fairly niche thing.

FunkyGreenJerusalem

11-18-2009, 04:47 PM

Given the lackluster sales on books like Halo and World of Warcraft, why would companies bother releasing more?

I thought the Halo graphic novel by Bendis was a big hit?

And WoW is up to #25 and about to start a second series...

And Jim Lee says Gears Of War was the best selling US title in 2008 (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2009/10/17/jim-lee-confirms-gears-of-war-1-was-best-selling-title-of-2008/).

FunkyGreenJerusalem

11-18-2009, 04:49 PM

I'd just like to volunteer my services right now to write the CoD comic book adaptation! :)

They gave it to David Lapham instead.

FunkyGreenJerusalem

11-18-2009, 04:52 PM

That's true. I see a hell of a lot more kids in GameStop and GameCrazy buying old games (most of the time they work perfectly fine) than I see in WalMart or Fry's buying new ones. The new game section at Fry's used to be a constant madhouse and now it's always like a ghost town when I'm in there, and the rest of the store still does gangbusters. (The computer components section is almost always a crowd nightmare with ransacked shelves, whether I go in at 8:30 AM or 4 in the afternoon...)

- Grant

If it's anything like here in Australia, you probably won't see the kids in game sections at the 'all in one' style stores, as they are usually pretty crappy with prices and selections.

However, I don't see this connection between people buying used games and people going off of games - you buy used games because it's exactly the same, and you get it much cheaper.
This might not be good for the game developers, but as a game player, it's pretty good - you get the same game, but at a big discount.

Steven Grant

11-18-2009, 11:43 PM

Everywhere I go, those books are sold out.

Possibly because comics retailers have mostly cut their orders on the things to the bone.

- Grant

krushjudgement

11-18-2009, 11:55 PM

Possibly because comics retailers have mostly cut their orders on the things to the bone.

- Grant

Possibly?

Possibly not. That's an open statement. It'd be interesting to look at the actual numbers.

bartl

11-19-2009, 10:13 AM

Possibly because comics retailers have mostly cut their orders on the things to the bone.
There's a business term for this: it's the "downward spiral of death."

Here's how it works. Faced with competition that can beat the hell out of a small business on price, the small business attempts to do business as usual, and cut costs, mostly on service and, in the case of retailers, inventory. However, doing so also makes the small business less attractive to potential customers, and reduces the reason to go to the small business rather than the competitor, so business continues to go down. So the owner keeps cutting costs, until the owner is out of business. This is a virtually guaranteed road to failure; the only way it has a chance is if the competition goes out of business before the small business goes under.

The reason why so many businesses choose this is because virtually any strategy that has a better chance of success also has a high probability of failing much sooner than the downward spiral of death. With the downward spiral of death, if the business fails, the owner can blame it on the competition. If the owner tries a strategy with a better chance of success, and fails, the owner blames him/herself. So, they will usually take the almost guaranteed failure that they can blame on others than take a chance at success where they would take the blame for failure themselves.

Steven Grant

11-19-2009, 10:59 AM

The reason why so many businesses choose this is because virtually any strategy that has a better chance of success also has a high probability of failing much sooner than the downward spiral of death. With the downward spiral of death, if the business fails, the owner can blame it on the competition. If the owner tries a strategy with a better chance of success, and fails, the owner blames him/herself. So, they will usually take the almost guaranteed failure that they can blame on others than take a chance at success where they would take the blame for failure themselves.

Shhh. You're spilling all of Sarah Palin's campaign strategy secrets.

- Grant

krushjudgement

11-19-2009, 03:43 PM

Shhh. You're spilling all of Sarah Palin's campaign strategy secrets.

- Grant

That's the best thing I've heard all day! Hahaha!

rorshach1982

11-20-2009, 10:08 AM

Are comic books based on video games sold in stores like GameStop? I don't see how just because somebody bought a video game at a GameStop, that they'd then rush to their local comic book store -- provided they even HAVE one nearby -- to buy a comic book based on it, unless they were already predisposed to buy comics anyway.

Now, making comic books based on video games and selling them cheap at the counter of a GameStop might be an intriguing business idea.

Also, regarding these comic books being "sold out" in your store, the operative question to ask is how many copies of each comic is the store buying? If it's 2, then that's not a gangbusters business idea. If it's 200, then maybe.

Could be wrong but I think Gears of War did a cross promotion where they had the comic book in-store with the game and they did good numbers. It wasn't offered as a package just as another sales item. I could be wrong though, lost the link to the article I had on it.

UPDATE: the link above had it

"This afternoon, Jim Lee told his Wizard World Big Apple Comic Con audience that the Wildstorm games license Gears Of War #1 was the best selling US comic book 2008, though he wouldn’t give the numbers…

DC gained a small reputation for not exactly talking up the sales acheivements of these titles as Gears Of War is understood to have sold through less traditional outlets such as games companies and games retailers. It may not have had the industry profile of, say Final Crisis.

But as of today it’s official. It sold more. A lot more"

It's Rich Johnston's column.