So how did Black Canary and Powergirl work out as team leaders?

[Shaka]

Granted I stopped reading after Thy Kingdom Come and stopped in the middle of the "JLA Disassembled" arc but both their reigns seem to be bleh. Editorial aside poor Black Canary seemed to have her whole team die, be too busy, or turn on her. While some of this is out of her control she seemed to get really dispirited and couldn't turn the team around into some sort of effective "Kookie Quartet". Her Justice League's accomplishments include defeating Amazo twice(??), beating the Injustice Gang, and stopping Darkseid from destroying all of creation(although it wasn't really a "League effort" to stop him).

When I was reading JSA Powergirl didn't seem like the leader...hell she spent a good portion of time running around on Earth 2. I'll give her credit though the JSA scored a huge victory defeating Gog and her team expanded during her tenure.

The first time DC has had two female leaders of their most prominent teams and I was disappointed. :frown:

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Check out JSA vs Kobra for PG. Lately, she's been shown as more of a leader... But Magog has also been shown as such, though he's going to be the cause of the JSA split apparently... (PG seriously needs to show him who the real leader is, 'cause I'm getting sick of him)


As for Black Canary... Um... Yeah, you got the gist of it.

[True Herald]

DC is currently obsessed with making any character that isn't Batman or Superman look pathetic and miserable, despite them being otherwise. That especially goes for female leaders (Wonder Girl and Vixen as well). And in PG's case: Geoff tends to pay lip service to characters that aren't his absolute faves (See also: John Stewart, Hal's so-called "partner").

[Annie2007]

It's such a bummer that BC isn't in as much of a strong leader role as she used to be. It's like people conveniently forget that she wasn't one of the original members (JUDD WINICK YOU TARD). She's stuck with crappy writers ever since Gail left Birds of Prey. :(

Haven't read too much on PG, though she seems like a lot of fun.

[SJNeal]

Fictional characters are only as capable as their writers let them be. Apparently DC wants us to believe neither of these women are strong leaders; therefore they aren't being portrayed as such. It's as simple as that, imho.

[FemGeek]

KidKamikaze has the right of it when it comes to PG. Written by Johns she didnt do a lot, like she was leader in name only. I'm not certain why he made her leader if he wasnt going to use her as such. The JSA vs Kobra mini has some great leadership moments for PG, and in the last issue of JSA she had some good moments. I was hoping that her leadership would be explored and used more by the new writers but it doesnt look so good for her after the split, Magog being in charge doesnt gel well with me and really it wouldnt go down so great with a well-written PG either. So for the now PG is in charge and seems to acting like it, but next month that could all change.

[Free-Man]

Fictional characters are only as capable as their writers let them be. Apparently DC wants us to believe neither of these women are strong leaders; therefore they aren't being portrayed as such. It's as simple as that, imho.

Pretty much. There was a fan who pretty much summed up the problem by saying "James Robinson did a good job of showing us how pathetic and inept Vixen and her comrades are," because they got knocked around by Despero. They came across as "pathetic and inept" because that's how Robinson wrote them, not any character flaws.

Likewise, Power Girl, Wonder Girl, Donna Troy, and Black Canary have all done wonderful jobs as leaders before. It's the writers and editors who choose to make them look like jokes and failures, often to boost their own pet characters.

[AgPhoenix]

Pretty much. There was a fan who pretty much summed up the problem by saying "James Robinson did a good job of showing us how pathetic and inept Vixen and her comrades are," because they got knocked around by Despero. They came across as "pathetic and inept" because that's how Robinson wrote them, not any character flaws.

Likewise, Power Girl, Wonder Girl, Donna Troy, and Black Canary have all done wonderful jobs as leaders before. It's the writers and editors who choose to make them look like jokes and failures, often to boost their own pet characters.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who was pissed off over Justice League of America #38 (If that's the right number), that issue was fricken terrible, as James Robinson pretty much BURIED Vixen's Team and pretty much Defecated on Vixen's Character. How does Vixen go from "I'm going to keep this League together" to "I'm about ready to give up" in 2 issues? It doesn't make sense, and it assures me I won't buy anything he writes currently.

That issue and its issues are just another example of the largest issue at DC, that isn't related to personal opinion. DC has pretty much minimized their women heroes since Infinite Crisis. Whether it be through Character Assassination (Cassandra Cain), Character Burial (Linda Danvers), or just plain eschewing most of their character development, it's become clear that writing strong and complex women (hell, even complex characters) is not a priority outside of certain books. I just hope Mera isn't the next victim on the list.

[Den]

I can't speak for PG because I haven't kept up, but Black Canary was left in a bad lurch (something that I believe McDuffie himself lamented) IIRC) before she could do the classic 'brings herself and the team back together'.

Now I actually liked JL #38 (and sure hope Bluejay lives, it got me caring about the guy) but I confess the 'cleaning house' part of team books when new creative teams come on can be painful to watch. It almost forces out of character actions on our heroes (Suddenly folks who pledged to fight on no matter what are giving up etc). I really don't care what sex the leader is, but it seems pretty obvious that the new JL is probably going to fall under either Hal or Dick's leadership. I'm betting Hal, though I actually think (despite liking Hal Jordan a lot) that Dick would be the better one.

On the other hand, if I were a female reader, I suppose I would be more than slightly insulted at the accidental implications that were set by stuff like this.


Maybe Powergirl will step up even more in Justice Society to make up for it.

Heck, if he plays his cards right, Dan Didio could get some nods if he brought in one or two more ladies into the Outsiders and made one of them a field commander at least part time.

[titanfan]

Black Canary was arguably the least effective League chair in JLA history. At first she was being undermined by the Big 3, but when she tells them to back off and let her do her job, the League totally falls apart and then she quits.

Power Girl's run was a little better, although she's technically only been chair for a few adventures since that book moves so slow.


Heck, if he plays his cards right, Dan Didio could get some nods if he brought in one or two more ladies into the Outsiders and made one of them a field commander at least part time.

Katana was leader in the last reboot. She's certainly a better choice than Geo Force, although it would be hard to argue against Black Lightning if he's on the team.

[Free-Man]

Black Canary was arguably the least effective League chair in JLA history. At first she was being undermined by the Big 3, but when she tells them to back off and let her do her job, the League totally falls apart and then she quits.

Unfortunately, we will never know if thats how the story was supposed to go. Remember, McDuffie was letgo in the middle of his run. For all we know, Canary could've pulled her sh*t together and come back as a leader, in fact the Origins and Omens story showed her still being with the team.

[titanfan]

Unfortunately, we will never know if thats how the story was supposed to go. Remember, McDuffie was letgo in the middle of his run. For all we know, Canary could've pulled her sh*t together and come back as a leader, in fact the Origins and Omens story showed her still being with the team.

Yeah, behind the scenes, Black Canary got screwed. But twenty years from now when someone writes a sypnosis of the BC era as chairwoman, that's what it's unfortunately going to say. The character deserved better.

[True Herald]

Unfortunately, we will never know if thats how the story was supposed to go. Remember, McDuffie was letgo in the middle of his run. For all we know, Canary could've pulled her sh*t together and come back as a leader, in fact the Origins and Omens story showed her still being with the team.

Which is why I'm not a fan of lengthy "breaking the character down so I can build them back up" plotlines. So much time and effort gets expended on the "break down" stage that the writer can be kicked off the book before the "build up" part ever begins. And then only the "break down" part sticks in the character's history, and makes him/her look bad. It's the same thing Devin Grayson did to Nightwing.

[noh-varr]

It's such a bummer that BC isn't in as much of a strong leader role as she used to be. It's like people conveniently forget that she wasn't one of the original members (JUDD WINICK YOU TARD). She's stuck with crappy writers ever since Gail left Birds of Prey. :(

Actually DC stole Canary away from the Birds of Prey book so they could do the silly thing and marry her off to Ollie and make her the constant damsel in distress and somehow lose all of her intelligence and skills she's had for years to make Green Arrow look more heroic.

[True Herald]

Actually DC stole Canary away from the Birds of Prey book so they could do the silly thing and marry her off to Ollie and make her the constant damsel in distress and somehow lose all of her intelligence and skills she's had for years to make Green Arrow look more heroic.

Chickification (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Chickification)

[gwydion]

KidKamikaze has the right of it when it comes to PG. Written by Johns she didnt do a lot, like she was leader in name only. I'm not certain why he made her leader if he wasnt going to use her as such. The JSA vs Kobra mini has some great leadership moments for PG, and in the last issue of JSA she had some good moments. I was hoping that her leadership would be explored and used more by the new writers but it doesnt look so good for her after the split, Magog being in charge doesnt gel well with me and really it wouldnt go down so great with a well-written PG either. So for the now PG is in charge and seems to acting like it, but next month that could all change.

Magog isn't in sole charge, PG is the overall All-Stars leader, Magog is the field leader and trainer. And there is going to be conflict between them, and likely very soon. PG is by the way apparently Sturges' favorite character among the JSA, he just said so over on comicbloc, so look for her to hopefully get some good in in All-Stars.

[Annie2007]

Actually DC stole Canary away from the Birds of Prey book so they could do the silly thing and marry her off to Ollie and make her the constant damsel in distress and somehow lose all of her intelligence and skills she's had for years to make Green Arrow look more heroic.

Gail got her back for a few minutes with cameos in Wonder Woman! It was great. And it sucks that just because she's married, there is no other choice in writing her than to make her the damsel in distress. Just because a woman gets married doesn't make her Betty freaking Crocker!!!

[Free-Man]

Gail got her back for a few minutes with cameos in Wonder Woman! It was great. And it sucks that just because she's married, there is no other choice in writing her than to make her the damsel in distress. Just because a woman gets married doesn't make her Betty freaking Crocker!!!

Unfortunately, it does when the writer is intent on making sure everyone knows the husband is the strong one.:frown:

[vinniewarlock]

(PG seriously needs to show him who the real leader is, 'cause I'm getting sick of him)

Agreed. I want to see her punching the daylights out of him...

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

So how did Black Canary and Powergirl work out as team leaders?

Despite being a leader taking up more time than just being a member of a team, I think they just made sure to put in some time at the gym each day - I assume both bases would have one... I certainly didn't notice them getting any less fit, so they had to be working out somewhere/when.

[Annie2007]

Unfortunately, it does when the writer is intent on making sure everyone knows the husband is the strong one.:frown:

Man, this is really bringing out my militant side, especially being a newlywed. It's not one over the other - but then, if I were writing, I'd probably put her over GA. I really wish they could be written as a true team. Le sigh. This will happen right after total human equality is realized, though. Must keep up hope. ;)

Till then, I'll half-heartedly pick up their title again. Or at least skim through it next time I'm at my comic book store. I dropped GA/BC because of the stupid plots, which sucks because, next to Oracle, Dinah is my favorite DC character.

[superchick]

BC- disaster
PG- competant I guess but I thought the old guys were the source of leadership really

[Shaka]

I think it'd have been interesting to show Superman as a mediocre leader sort of like BC. Superman is good at inspiring but he's never really been shown to have to deal with real leadership challenges and the everyday nuts of bolts of it. And it wouldn't be OOC like BC's failure since again he's never been shown in a solid leadership position like Batman, Nightwing, or Aquaman.

[Avenger08]

Black Canary's leadership hasn't been awful, but I was hoping for ALOT more.

Power Girl on the other hand I thought has shown a good deal of leadership.

In her time, the team stopped Vandal Savage and the Fourth Reich, Gog, Black Adam and Isis, and is currently dealing with the whole split with magog, although id personally like to see her whoop him, and then kick him off the team.

But the ranks has also expanded a crazy amount.
They have had, how many? Like 26 or 27 different members of the team.
I only wish they had kept Superman-22.
(They should open up another black hole, get his son, put him on the team for a while, and then send him back to the exact moment he left. Wonderful.

[UltraMagnetic]

I think they both suck as team leaders. Black Canary's team really didn't do much or go up against any major threats.

Power Girl's run is slightly better but there are moments when Jay and Alan flex their authority. And on the JSA vs Kobra run.......it looks like Mr. Terrific is calling the shots and she's just following his play.

[dupersuper]

Pretty much. There was a fan who pretty much summed up the problem by saying "James Robinson did a good job of showing us how pathetic and inept Vixen and her comrades are," because they got knocked around by Despero. They came across as "pathetic and inept" because that's how Robinson wrote them, not any character flaws.


To be fair, Despero regularly takes down whole leagues, and only people like Superman or J'onn can go toe-to-toe with him...so it's not like most (at least not me) see being stomped by Despero as anything to be ashamed of (especially with 2 injured members).

Even without the unfortunate editorial perfect storm that derailed Black Canary, I, to be honest, really can't buy her or Vixen or Red Arrow or Firestorm or who ever as leader with Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman or (if he'd been there) Martian Manhunter on the team. Intelectually, I whole-heartedly agree with John Stewarts assessment of why Canary would be better suited than Supes or Bats to lead, but my inner 8 year old won't stop yelling "Why is that guy giving SUPERMAN orders??" I agree with Morissons view of Superman as a Christ-like/Godlike presence, and I just see every one naturally looking to him in a crisis.

All that being said, as a character Dinah definitely deserved better than her league ending with a whimper.

[gwydion]

I think they both suck as team leaders. Black Canary's team really didn't do much or go up against any major threats.

Power Girl's run is slightly better but there are moments when Jay and Alan flex their authority. And on the JSA vs Kobra run.......it looks like Mr. Terrific is calling the shots and she's just following his play.

Read the finale to JSA vs Kobra. She's letting him give advice, but she's got final say. And she directs everyone else. Even in JSA proper PG is really starting to exert her leadership, though again, like any good leader, she defers to good advice. But she has the final say.

[Shaka]

To be fair, Despero regularly takes down whole leagues, and only people like Superman or J'onn can go toe-to-toe with him...so it's not like most (at least not me) see being stomped by Despero as anything to be ashamed of (especially with 2 injured members).

Even without the unfortunate editorial perfect storm that derailed Black Canary, I, to be honest, really can't buy her or Vixen or Red Arrow or Firestorm or who ever as leader with Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman or (if he'd been there) Martian Manhunter on the team. Intelectually, I whole-heartedly agree with John Stewarts assessment of why Canary would be better suited than Supes or Bats to lead, but my inner 8 year old won't stop yelling "Why is that guy giving SUPERMAN orders??" I agree with Morissons view of Superman as a Christ-like/Godlike presence, and I just see every one naturally looking to him in a crisis.

All that being said, as a character Dinah definitely deserved better than her league ending with a whimper.

Which is a shame because she sort of reminds me of Obama

- First woman leader(I think)
-Mandate after a crisis
-Huge team with lots of power(like Obama's Congress)

She didn't know how to use her people

[True Herald]

- First woman leader(I think)

Nah, that'd be Wonder Woman.

[Shaka]

Nah, that'd be Wonder Woman.

Oh when was that?

[True Herald]

Oh when was that?

Justice League America #71, cover dated Feb. '93, in the aftermath of Superman's death:

http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/justice-league-america/71-1.jpg

Canary doesn't get second place, either. That goes to the lovely lady in my avatar, who led Justice League International after Hal left to get himself Parallaxed. :smile:

[dupersuper]

Oh when was that?

Wonder Woman led the team in the 90's, Black Canary was leader right before Vixen, so she's, at best, 3rd.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

I'd say that PG's leadership is up there in terms of recent chair-people in the JSA.

Because some of them weren't that good. (Sands for instance)

[gwydion]

I'd say that PG's leadership is up there in terms of recent chair-people in the JSA.

Because some of them weren't that good. (Sands for instance)

But PG's leadership has been getting better since Johns left. In both the regular title and JSA vs Kobra, and should get better still in All-Stars, where Sturges seems to like her best. At the very least, she responds somewhat differently than Black Canary when her leadership is challenged, as evidenced by the February cover to All-Stars...:biggrin:

In fairness to Canary, I'm not sure it would have turned out well for her if she tried that with Batman...

[Annie2007]

BC definitely has the potential and the guts to be a good leader - it's just her writers don't give her the proper chance.