Is The Huntress Ever Going to Figure Out Who The Bat Family Are

[WorstThingUS]

In the odious Nightwing/Huntress mini-series that everyone including the characters regrets, though he never tells her his real name, Helena clearly sees Dick Grayson sans mask (and everything else), but strangely has never seen a paper or TV show in Gotham City that clearly identifies him, not to mention his "dad" and "little brother." Just how long are they going to make her so utterly clueless!?! Especially now when Dick has to do all the society rounds and public appearances that Bruce used to! Because of Hush, he was just on live TV with what had to be the biggest story in Gotham City. How could she have missed it!?!

[Brack360]

Not to mention that Helena knows that Oracle is Barbara Gordon and that Oracle dating Nightwing. Presumably, the fact that Barbara dated Dick Grayson and was even engaged to him at one point would be public knowledge.

[DetectiveDupin]

I hope not. She's doesn't fit in, and I would honestly have her die if it was my choice.

[WorstThingUS]

I hope not. She's doesn't fit in, and I would honestly have her die if it was my choice.

Heh. Tell us how you really feel!

[Free-Man]

I hope not. She's doesn't fit in, and I would honestly have her die if it was my choice.

How does she not fit in?

[DetectiveDupin]

How does she not fit in?

In every one of her appearances I've never really felt she meshed well with the other members of the Bat-family. She always seems too angry, too violent. Her costume is ugly, belly-window or not. I just never liked her. It's cool if you do, but I feel she is a terrible character.

[Free-Man]

In every one of her appearances I've never really felt she meshed well with the other members of the Bat-family. She always seems too angry, too violent. Her costume is ugly, belly-window or not. I just never liked her. It's cool if you do, but I feel she is a terrible character.

She fits in no worse than Damien, who also has had some fugly outfits.

[jrp001]

She knows Bruce/Bats
She knows Babs/Oracle/original Batgirl
She knows Canary/Dinah
She knows Misfit
She knows Kate/Manhunter

unclear/or revealed off panel:

Cassie/Batgirl
Tim/Robin
Damien/Robin
Jason/Robin
Dick/Nightwing

I think the "outside" the bat family "on probation" is plot thread that has out lived its story purpose.

[WorstThingUS]

She knows Bruce/Bats

Are you saying she's met Bruce Wayne are that she knows Bruce is Bats, because it's been stated pretty clearly she's angry that they know all about her whereas she knows nothing about them



I think the "outside" the bat family "on probation" is plot thread that has out lived its story purpose.

Seriously. Especially given she's a trusted member of BOP and was part of the operation against organized crime that Batman even praised.

[jrp001]

Are you saying she's met Bruce Wayne are that she knows Bruce is Bats, because it's been stated pretty clearly she's angry that they know all about her whereas she knows nothing about them


I always get confused as to whether or not she knows about Bruce/Bats. I thought she did... maybe they are stilling playing the same story beat from 1992.

[DetectiveDupin]

She fits in no worse than Damien, who also has had some fugly outfits.

Except Damian is actually an interesting character. And I disagree, I like Damian's Robin Costume.

[Batman Examiner]

Didn't the latest issue of "Streets of Gotham" pretty much say she knew who everyone was now?

[dumbstruck]

I hope not. Not every vigilante in Gotham City needs to be on a first name basis with the Bats.

[Jae Namkyoung]

Except Damian is actually an interesting character. And I disagree, I like Damian's Robin Costume.

I don't like Damian. <3 Huntress. I don't want H in Batfamily she's her own person, her own thing. I like that she's different. I like her. Huntress is good, and when written well (Gail Simone) is awesomer.

[WorstThingUS]

I don't like Damian. <3 Huntress. I don't want H in Batfamily she's her own person, her own thing. I like that she's different. I like her. Huntress is good, and when written well (Gail Simone) is awesomer.

Well, she's already Batfamily:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_aOehWq6bi9Y/SYSPPrm7pNI/AAAAAAAACN0/UrkYbTs9Zbo/s400/batman+family+4+of+8-00fc-qpr.jpg

The only question now is inner circle status.

[Alan2099]

In every one of her appearances I've never really felt she meshed well with the other members of the Bat-family. She always seems too angry, too violent.
I always thought that was the purpose of the character. She's the superhero and Gotham that doesn't listen to Batman and isn't afraid to blow him off and do things he wouldn't approve of.

Frankly, I think Gotham needs a few more heroes that aren't afraid to tell Bats to shove it once in a while.

[Jae Namkyoung]

Well, she's already Batfamily:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_aOehWq6bi9Y/SYSPPrm7pNI/AAAAAAAACN0/UrkYbTs9Zbo/s400/batman+family+4+of+8-00fc-qpr.jpg

The only question now is inner circle status.

*shrug* Its dumb. Its not that she doesn't have a place. It's just she doesn't need them. The character is fine on her own -- I agree Alan, we need more superheroes to tell Bat to shove it.

[DetectiveDupin]

Huntress is sorta like JPV to me.

[DetectiveDupin]

I always thought that was the purpose of the character. She's the superhero and Gotham that doesn't listen to Batman and isn't afraid to blow him off and do things he wouldn't approve of.

Frankly, I think Gotham needs a few more heroes that aren't afraid to tell Bats to shove it once in a while.

I disagree. Batman has been doing things right for years, she doesn't like it she can get the hell out of Gotham or get beat down.

[Alan2099]

I disagree. Batman has been doing things right for years,
Is he? Look at the state chaos that's spredding through Gotham and the colorful serial killers there in at any given month.

I say there's more than enough room for some different techniques.

[DetectiveDupin]

Is he? Look at the state chaos that's spredding through Gotham and the colorful serial killers there in at any given month.

I say there's more than enough room for some different techniques.

Well Huntress can go team with the Punisher then.

[Shush]

I want a Jason Todd x Helena story.

*Flame shield on*

[jrp001]

I want a Jason Todd x Helena story.

*Flame shield on*


only if went like this:

Huntress: "You want me to what? you did what?"
Jason: "What's it to ya..."
Huntress then shoots a cross bow through his ears... and makes a Steve Martin reference!

[Alan2099]

Well Huntress can go team with the Punisher then.

No. Actually she can't. Different companies and all that.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

I think it's silly that she's in Gotham and part of the Bat-family.

It made sense when she was on Earth-Two, but these days, she just doesn't fit in there.

She adds nothing to the dynamic of Batman - she's not in any of the great Batman stories, or really a part of the mythos - and in Gotham she'll always be under their shadow.

The best the characters worked was in BoP, when she was away from the Bat-family.

Give her a new city to operate in, and adventures away from Batman, and she'd be a much stronger character.

[brenticles]

Working for Oracle, the former and original Batgirl, doesn’t seem away from the Bat-Fam to me. To me she's part of the Bat-Family, but she a cousin/niece, not a sister or daughter type. IMO, the Bat-Fam is Batman, Alfred, Nightwing, Robin, Oracle, Batgirl, Huntress, and Ace, becasue every family needs a dog. It's a universal rule. Anyway, that's a nice tight group of characters, easy to manage and tell interrelated stories. The current storylines have added Damien and I'm fine with that. Depending on how she is written at the time, Catwoman could be considered in the Bat-Fam. All other characters are support characters.

[jrp001]

I think it's silly that she's in Gotham and part of the Bat-family.

It made sense when she was on Earth-Two, but these days, she just doesn't fit in there.

She adds nothing to the dynamic of Batman - she's not in any of the great Batman stories, or really a part of the mythos - and in Gotham she'll always be under their shadow.

The best the characters worked was in BoP, when she was away from the Bat-family.

Give her a new city to operate in, and adventures away from Batman, and she'd be a much stronger character.

if they were to relaunch a series, I wouldn't mind her and Question (renee) tackling the crime in Hub City - make it really noir-ish...

have back-ups be Tales of the Question (Vic) set in the past but being relevant to the current stories....

[Redem]

if they were to relaunch a series, I wouldn't mind her and Question (renee) tackling the crime in Hub City - make it really noir-ish...

have back-ups be Tales of the Question (Vic) set in the past but being relevant to the current stories....

Actually Hub City ain't that great for a noir city its closer to a third world cess pool than an actual city

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Working for Oracle, the former and original Batgirl, doesn’t seem away from the Bat-Fam to me. To me she's part of the Bat-Family, but she a cousin/niece, not a sister or daughter type. IMO, the Bat-Fam is Batman, Alfred, Nightwing, Robin, Oracle, Batgirl, Huntress, and Ace, becasue every family needs a dog. It's a universal rule. Anyway, that's a nice tight group of characters, easy to manage and tell interrelated stories. The current storylines have added Damien and I'm fine with that. Depending on how she is written at the time, Catwoman could be considered in the Bat-Fam. All other characters are support characters.

You really consider Oracle a key-member of the 'Bat-Family' as well as Huntress?

Again, I get the connection, but she seems to have more to do in other characters books than in Bamtan's books.
Batman has the 'Bat-Computer' - he doesn't really need Oracle.
Again, I can't think of a great Batman story Oracle was in, and again, again, I think she worked much better as an independent operator in BoP.
(I can think of more Superman stories where he's relied on Oracle than Batman one's!).

Heck, I don't even really think of Nightwing as part of the Bat-family - maybe a cousin.
He grew up and moved on, and should be doing his own thing.
That said, I love Dick Grayson as Batman, just when he's Nightwing, I think he works better outside of Gotham.

[WorstThingUS]

I think it's silly that she's in Gotham and part of the Bat-family.

She became The Huntress after seeing how Batman terrified the mob she hated. He is her "spiritual" father which has been driven home in every series she's ever had.


She adds nothing to the dynamic of Batman - she's not in any of the great Batman stories, or really a part of the mythos - and in Gotham she'll always be under their shadow.

You could make that argument against numerous characters. What great Batman story is Nightwing in? Batgirl? Tim Drake?


The best the characters worked was in BoP, when she was away from the Bat-family.

...which was run by former Batgirl and was based in Gotham City.


You really consider Oracle a key-member of the 'Bat-Family' as well as Huntress?

Former Batgirl, daughter of Commissioner Gordon and lover of Dick Grayson. Yeah, that's Bat-family.


Again, I get the connection, but she seems to have more to do in other characters books than in Bamtan's books.
Batman has the 'Bat-Computer' - he doesn't really need Oracle.

And how's that work when he's on a rooftop and needs information?


Again, I can't think of a great Batman story Oracle was in, and again, again, I think she worked much better as an independent operator in BoP.
(I can think of more Superman stories where he's relied on Oracle than Batman one's!).

Again, outside of Commissioner Gordon, Dick Grayson/Robin and Alfred, you can argue against pretty much anyone not being in a "great" Batman story.


Heck, I don't even really think of Nightwing as part of the Bat-family - maybe a cousin.

Okay, now you're totally off the reservation.


He grew up and moved on, and should be doing his own thing.
That said, I love Dick Grayson as Batman, just when he's Nightwing, I think he works better outside of Gotham.

Except dad "died" and he had to come home and run the family business. One of the oldest stories ideas ever.

And while it was published, Birds of Prey had the little bat on the cover marking it as part of the Bat line of books.

http://www.pollsb.com/photos/o/45686-batman_family.jpg

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Oh dear, I should've known the characters big fans wouldn't be able to see the forest for the trees, and that saying she doesn't belong in the books would be seen as a slight, but here we go...


She became The Huntress after seeing how Batman terrified the mob she hated. He is her "spiritual" father which has been driven home in every series she's ever had.

Yeah, you're right - her being inspired by him means she must operate in Gotham, and be a part of his family!
There's no other way to play the character.



You could make that argument against numerous characters. What great Batman story is Nightwing in? Batgirl? Tim Drake?

Exactly!
Just because they started in the Batman books, doesn't mean that once they have their own book they should stay in Batman's world.

Tim Drake being the exception as until recently he wasn't 'Tim Drake' he was Robin, and a Robin's been in a few great Batman stories.



...which was run by former Batgirl and was based in Gotham City.

Former Batgirl, daughter of Commissioner Gordon and lover of Dick Grayson. Yeah, that's Bat-family.

Except not really - she doesn't really fit well in Batman-centric stories... in fact in a lot of stories, she's a deus ex machina for how a hero was able to learn some precious piece of info, at that exact point of time, without having to do anything.



And how's that work when he's on a rooftop and needs information?

Well generally he calls Alfred, and in this day and age, I don't see why he wouldn't have a
super mini computer in his pocket.

Oracle helping Batman comes across as a much bigger thing in books about Oracle, than in any actual Batman story.



Again, outside of Commissioner Gordon, Dick Grayson/Robin and Alfred, you can argue against pretty much anyone not being in a "great" Batman story.

Yup.
Most times these other character star in books set in Gotham where they work with Batman - in Batman's own books they aren't acknowledged all that often.



Okay, now you're totally off the reservation.

No I'm not.
Most of Nightwings solo title was set in Bludhaven - the character worked better away from Batman than he did in the same city as him.
He can stand on his own away from Batman, tied in too close to Batman, he's just an extra Robin.

Batman is number one in all of Batman's stories, so setting a character regularly in hisr shadow doesn't help the character.



Except dad "died" and he had to come home and run the family business. One of the oldest stories ideas ever.

Yeah, and it's great - but notice that the Nightwing title has gone now.



And while it was published, Birds of Prey had the little bat on the cover marking it as part of the Bat line of books.

What a clever marketing gimmick.
Did it help the book at all? Change it in anyway? Or was it just a logo on there to try help boost sales?



http://www.pollsb.com/photos/o/45686-batman_family.jpg

What point are you trying to make with that?
That they all look goofy?
That Batman with a bunch of other superheroes on a roof top doesn't look as cool as Batman and Robin, or just Batman alone on a rooftop?

I don't even know who the red and white guy is!

[Sn4tcH]

I don't even know who the red and white guy is!

Really? It's Azrael, JPV to be exact.

And basically I'm with WorstThingUS. I couldn't disagree more with everything you've posted.

[Jae Namkyoung]

I don't even know who the red and white guy is!


Jean Paul Valley, Azrael I.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Really? It's Azrael, JPV to be exact.

Ah, another character who made sense in a Batman storyline, but once it was done, let Gotham for a while with their own book, and was then brought back to diminishing sales.

(When did he get that costume? It's the dumbest thing I've seen since Bloodlines. Heck, even the new Azrael has a better costume than that).



And basically I'm with WorstThingUS. I couldn't disagree more with everything you've posted.

That's fine - I don't know why fans of the character would want her living in another characters shadow, utterly dependent on them for a place in the world, but different strokes and all of that.

Why do you think she needs to be in the 'Bat-family'?
Only reason I can think of is that you see it as a slight to the character not to be - but if she was in a different city, she could be the hero all the time, not Batman.
I think it's detrimental to both characters - Batman and Huntress - to have them in the same city, let alone the same 'family' of books.

[WorstThingUS]

Yeah, you're right - her being inspired by him means she must operate in Gotham, and be a part of his family!
There's no other way to play the character.

Uh, yeah. You can't put on red and blue with an "S" on your chest and run around Metropolis and insist you're not associated with Superman.



Exactly!
Just because they started in the Batman books, doesn't mean that once they have their own book they should stay in Batman's world.

Except for that thing about being in the family business.


Tim Drake being the exception as until recently he wasn't 'Tim Drake' he was Robin, and a Robin's been in a few great Batman stories.

Name one great Batman story with Tim Drake/Robin.



Well generally he calls Alfred, and in this day and age, I don't see why he wouldn't have a
super mini computer in his pocket.

Not aware of Alfred's hacking skills and you're not going to see Batman whipping out a blackberry or iPhone on rooftop..



No I'm not.
Most of Nightwings solo title was set in Bludhaven - the character worked better away from Batman than he did in the same city as him.
He can stand on his own away from Batman, tied in too close to Batman, he's just an extra Robin.

Let's see, he was sent there by Batman to begin with, Robin was in #3, The Scarecrow in #11, Batman in #12-13, Man Bat in #17, Gotham earthquake in #19-20....I could go on. And this isn't counting appearances by Alfred or conversations with with Batman that popped up, not to mention Oracle was pretty much a supporting character. There wasn't as much "away" as you like to think.



What a clever marketing gimmick.
Did it help the book at all? Change it in anyway? Or was it just a logo on there to try help boost sales?

It was there to let you know for certain that it was considered part of the Bat-family. You know, if that based-in-Gotham-former-Batgirl-Commissioner-Gordon's-daughter thing wasn't a clue.



What point are you trying to make with that?
That they all look goofy?
That Batman with a bunch of other superheroes on a roof top doesn't look as cool as Batman and Robin, or just Batman alone on a rooftop?

I don't even know who the red and white guy is!

And that response says it all about your views on the validity of who is and isn't in The Bat-family. For those who understand what a "family portrait" is, here's a few more:

http://z.about.com/d/comicbooks/1/0/H/B/batfamily.jpg
http://www.a10collectibles.com/images/store_version1/batmanfamilybanner.jpg
http://i9.tinypic.com/62qweh3.jpg
http://i.newsarama.com/preview_images/dcnew/oct08/5/bm_gotham_underground_cv.jpg

[WorstThingUS]

That's fine - I don't know why fans of the character would want her living in another characters shadow, utterly dependent on them for a place in the world, but different strokes and all of that.

Why do you think she needs to be in the 'Bat-family'?
Only reason I can think of is that you see it as a slight to the character not to be - but if she was in a different city, she could be the hero all the time, not Batman.
I think it's detrimental to both characters - Batman and Huntress - to have them in the same city, let alone the same 'family' of books.

Being "family" doesn't dictate being in the same book, nor same city, but they are part of the family nonetheless. You might as well argue that Supergirl and Superboy aren't part of the Superman Family, that Arsenal and Connor Hawke aren't part of the Green Arrow Family and that Wonder Girl and Donna Troy aren't part of the Wonder Woman Family. Without Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and Green Arrow none of these characters exist, period. They are by definition "descendants." And when you have trouble, who do you call? Family:

http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/superman-batman/5-1.jpg

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Uh, yeah. You can't put on red and blue with an "S" on your chest and run around Metropolis and insist you're not associated with Superman.

Sorry, does Huntress have a big Bat-symbol on her chest?

Does Nightwing?

These are separate characters - hell, Robin became Nightwing to get away from Batman!



Except for that thing about being in the family business.

What thing?

'Except for my argument that they are Batman characters'?

Other than that, what family business?
It doesn't make sense for, and in fact hurts, the concept of Batman to have him be reliant on so many other characters - and yet still not having cleaned up Gotham - and it hurts them by keeping them from being number one.
So what's the point?


Name one great Batman story with Tim Drake/Robin.

With Robin or with Tim Drake?

I don't care whose in the mask - Robin is Robin is Robin is Robin.

Dick Grayson was Robin, then he was Nightwing, he is currently Batman.
So when I talk Robin, I don't care which one it is - apart from retcons, they're all the same.
When I say Nightwing, I mean the chap in black and blue - not Dick Grayson when he was Robin.

You see?

Which is all a preamble to the fact I can't off the top of my head think of any particularly great Batman stories with Robin, except for Dark Knight Returns, R.I.P and the current Batman And Robin series.


Not aware of Alfred's hacking skills and you're not going to see Batman whipping out a blackberry or iPhone on rooftop..

You've never seen him use the Bat-Computer?
It's the Bat-Computer, it's got hacking programs in it that can beat anything - It's the Bat-Computer... why wouldn't it?

Why wouldn't he whip out a Bat-Berry?
Makes more sense than him consulting someone else to do it.

See, you've got to change Batman's whole operation to work Oracle into it.


Let's see, he was sent there by Batman to begin with, Robin was in #3, The Scarecrow in #11, Batman in #12-13, Man Bat in #17, Gotham earthquake in #19-20....I could go on. And this isn't counting appearances by Alfred or conversations with with Batman that popped up, not to mention Oracle was pretty much a supporting character. There wasn't as much "away" as you like to think.

Oracle being a support character in Nightwing doesn't tie him to Batman as much as you think - which is the point I'm making.
Batman villains don't count as it's a 'batman book' - villains appear all over the place... Animal Man's been to space and fought Flash Rogues... doesn't make him a space character or part of the Flash family.

Anyway, did this help his book or hurt it?
What did having the bat-characters in his book do to help make his book better, and Nightwing stronger as a character?



It was there to let you know for certain that it was considered part of the Bat-family. You know, if that based-in-Gotham-former-Batgirl-Commissioner-Gordon's-daughter thing wasn't a clue.

And yet, not about Batman, so why tie it in to Batman, if not for sales?

And remember, Barbara started as Batgirl in Batman, but she became Oracle in Suicide Squad - Oracle was never created to be a Batman support character... which is probably why in Batman books she isn't.



And that response says it all about your views on the validity of who is and isn't in The Bat-family.

My views are valid as I'm not viewing it through the eyes of needing these characters to be in the bat books because I feel it gives them a status boost.



For those who understand what a "family portrait" is, here's a few more:

http://z.about.com/d/comicbooks/1/0/H/B/batfamily.jpg
http://www.a10collectibles.com/images/store_version1/batmanfamilybanner.jpg
http://i9.tinypic.com/62qweh3.jpg
http://i.newsarama.com/preview_images/dcnew/oct08/5/bm_gotham_underground_cv.jpg

If you want to prove your point with a picture, please find one that's at least pleasant to look at.
At the moment it just says to me 'See, these characters all come out when ever the B-Team gets to do the book.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Being "family" doesn't dictate being in the same book, nor same city, but they are part of the family nonetheless.

I know, usually it just means it's got the same editors, but the real world seems so distant in this conversation...


You might as well argue that Supergirl and Superboy aren't part of the Superman Family, that Arsenal and Connor Hawke aren't part of the Green Arrow Family and that Wonder Girl and Donna Troy aren't part of the Wonder Woman Family. Without Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and Green Arrow none of these characters exist, period. They are by definition "descendants." And when you have trouble, who do you call? Family:

http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/superman-batman/5-1.jpg

Every other character you list, has a much, much, much stronger tie to the character whose 'family' they are in than Huntress or Oracle do with Batman.

The only reason Huntress has a connection to Batman currently, is that she was his daughter on Earth-2.
Her origin really doesn't make sense in the current setting, and it feels a bit Mary Sue that Batman would let her keep operating in his city, when he doesn't with anyone else.

I find it sad you guys need these female characters you love to be so tied in to a male, especially in this day and age!

[Sn4tcH]

I find it sad you guys need these female characters you love to be so tied in to a male, especially in this day and age!

That thought didn't even cross my mind.

Though I do agree, the only reason she's really in the Bat-family was probably because of the character from Pre-Crisis.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

That thought didn't even cross my mind.

Well, I was teasing.

[Godlike13]

Bat-Family and Associates
http://www.comicartcommunity.com/gallery/data/media/52/batman619-heroes-poster.jpg

Bat-family is Bruce Wayne, Dick Grayson (no matter the name), Barbra Gordan, Tim Drake, Cassandra Cain, and possible Damian Wayne. They took Batman's oath, their soldiers in his fight. Plus use all his tech and are still, in varies ways, supported by him. Huntress is a bat-family associate, same with Catwoman and others.

[OedipussyRex]

All this talk of who is "Bat-Family" and where they fit in and no mention of Ragman? Where's the love, people? Where is the love?

[dumbstruck]

Her origin really doesn't make sense in the current setting, and it feels a bit Mary Sue that Batman would let her keep operating in his city, when he doesn't with anyone else.



Well, as evidenced by Batman's initial support of her in the JLA, and his allowing her to run around as Batgirl during NML, an argument can be made that, for whatever reason, Batman wants her to step up and do things the Bat-way. That would be why he allows her to operate.

[WorstThingUS]

The only reason Huntress has a connection to Batman currently, is that she was his daughter on Earth-2.

Little bit more than that:

http://i44.tinypic.com/35l5hdw.jpg


Her origin really doesn't make sense in the current setting, and it feels a bit Mary Sue that Batman would let her keep operating in his city, when he doesn't with anyone else.

How does being the daughter of a crime family not make sense? Batman ultimately lets others operate providing the meet his standards. Also, Robin, Nightwing, Oracle and Black Canary have come to Helena's defense and Batman himself put her in the JLA. As we said before, this idea that she's on probation has long since run its course and better stories have shown that she is a trusted member of the family, though not its inner circle.

[ForeverTaskmaster]

I don't like Damian. <3 Huntress. I don't want H in Batfamily she's her own person, her own thing. I like that she's different. I like her. Huntress is good, and when written well (Gail Simone) is awesomer.
Gail writes a badass Huntress as well as a badass Shiva.

[Sn4tcH]

Little bit more than that:

You have to admit though, if the Huntress of Earth-2 wasn't the daughter of Batman and Catwoman, I don't think anyone would write Huntress as part of the family now. Like if Pre-Crisis Huntress was the daughter of say... Green Arrow. Then Post-Crisis, if the character was brought back and had her whole backstory re-written, the writers would still probably stick her in Green Arrow books. Simply because she was associated with Green Arrow in the past.

[WorstThingUS]

You have to admit though, if the Huntress of Earth-2 wasn't the daughter of Batman and Catwoman, I don't think anyone would write Huntress as part of the family now. Like if Pre-Crisis Huntress was the daughter of say... Green Arrow. Then Post-Crisis, if the character was brought back and had her whole backstory re-written, the writers would still probably stick her in Green Arrow books. Simply because she was associated with Green Arrow in the past.

Oh, of course. She was always meant to be an homage to The Huntress that was lost. They've bent over backwards to tie Helena Bertinelli to Batman, but it never really worked until they made her the "rebellious daughter" unlike the first series where she operated out of New York and was disappointed Batman didn't like her. But there's a nice little pre-crisis moment out of a JLA/JSA team up that suggests why The Huntress is tolerated despite his insistence that he didn't like her methods:

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll125/mysteryfan/justice%20league/jl159/loves_his_work.jpg

[thor25]

:

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll125/mysteryfan/justice%20league/jl159/loves_his_work.jpg


but the huntress in that episode was helena wayne, batman of earth one and her share a very special bond. they were very close: (too close in opinon of some)

http://s284.photobucket.com/albums/ll13/odinthor/?action=view&current=BraveBold184-07.jpg

so that statament makes sense only under those circunstances

[WorstThingUS]

but the huntress in that episode was helena wayne, batman of earth one and her share a very special bond. they were very close: (too close in opinon of some)

http://s284.photobucket.com/albums/ll13/odinthor/?action=view&current=BraveBold184-07.jpg

so that statament makes sense only under those circunstances

Uh, no. Maybe the reason he tolerates The Huntress now is because of a pre-crisis desire to have a daughter. Helena Wayne didn't give it to him, she was just the personification of it. After all his thoughts are "I've always wanted a daugther..." not "Since meeting her I've wanted a daughter..."

And people have sad little minds minds, since she never referred to him as anything but "Uncle Bruce"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/volksjager/scansdaliy/DC-260-79F21A866.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/volksjager/scansdaliy/DC-260-79F21A732.jpg

Then of course E1 Batman found out about this in Infinite Crisis (not that we see any change in his treatment of Helena as a result of this knowledge before his "death"):

http://maidofmight.net/images/infinite%20crisis%203%20variant.jpg

[Mia]

Except Damian is actually an interesting character. And I disagree, I like Damian's Robin Costume.

That's debatable. A 10 year old boy who can do everything? Give me a break!
Damian is nothing but a glorified Marty Stue.

[Mia]

In all reality, Huntress by now should have been able to figure it out on her own. But since she's been retconned into an imbecile, the only way she will figure out who Batman really is when she is told by Oracle. Just like everything else.

[Sn4tcH]

That's debatable. A 10 year old boy who can do everything? Give me a break!
Damian is nothing but a glorified Marty Stue.

Are we reading the same books? He's been beaten up by everyone so far, and the only reason he took out Tim was because "SURPRISE GRENADE DECAPITATION!"

[WorstThingUS]

Are we reading the same books? He's been beaten up by everyone so far, and the only reason he took out Tim was because "SURPRISE GRENADE DECAPITATION!"

Not to mention he keeps screwing up by not following orders or going too far with the violence so people either can't be questioned or actually helping in Sasha's transformation by not seeing to her well-being first and foremost (and she's holding a grudge over it).

[thor25]

[
Uh, no. Maybe the reason he tolerates The Huntress now is because of a pre-crisis desire to have a daughter. Helena Wayne didn't give it to him, she was just the personification of it. After all his thoughts are "I've always wanted a daugther..." not "Since meeting her I've wanted a daughter..."

I see your point, but unlees he retain some of hiss memories from his bronze age days, this statment is not longer in continuity, so is a s valid as jason tood beating mongul or superman playing bowling with planets, but of course there is always the posibility of a writer trowing back this moment.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

How does being the daughter of a crime family not make sense?

Being one in Gotham doesn't really make any sense.
'Oooh, despite their being a Batman raging a war on crime already, I'll jump into the fray as well'.
Again, if you're happy for the character to be treated so limp-wristedly, more power to you.
But I really thought a characters fans would think it better that they stood in their own feet instead of holding on Batman's cape.


Batman ultimately lets others operate providing the meet his standards. Also, Robin, Nightwing, Oracle and Black Canary have come to Helena's defense and Batman himself put her in the JLA. As we said before, this idea that she's on probation has long since run its course and better stories have shown that she is a trusted member of the family, though not its inner circle.

She's a character so good, Batman kinda trusts her sometimes?

I can see why you wouldn't want her moved away from such awesome treatment.


That's debatable. A 10 year old boy who can do everything? Give me a break!

Is it Damian you don't like, or Robin?


Damian is nothing but a glorified Marty Stue.

We had a thread where we tore that argument apart.

[Zembo]

Getting back to the original reason for this thread, I agree she should have figured it out by now. Hell, most of the JLA and JSA should have by now.

[WorstThingUS]

[

I see your point, but unlees he retain some of hiss memories from his bronze age days, this statment is not longer in continuity, so is a s valid as jason tood beating mongul or superman playing bowling with planets, but of course there is always the posibility of a writer trowing back this moment.

Well those emotions aren't necessarily based on the presence of a multi-verse. After all, in those same JLA issues the Green Arrow/Hawkman conflict was a established and that survived even though Katar Hol was taken out of continuity. So is desire for a daughter is theoretically possible to still be part of Bruce Wayne's makeup.


Being one in Gotham doesn't really make any sense.
'Oooh, despite their being a Batman raging a war on crime already, I'll jump into the fray as well'.

Yeah, because god knows if you were inspired to play football by Brett Farvre or guitar by Eric Clapton, the last thing you'd want to do is play with them. People hate being next to their idols. Oh, wait, they don't. In fact, they live for that.


Again, if you're happy for the character to be treated so limp-wristedly, more power to you.

But I really thought a characters fans would think it better that they stood in their own feet instead of holding on Batman's cape.



The idea that being in the same city as Batman is to one's detriment exists solely in your mind and is based on nothing in print. Robin's book was excellent for years under the same circumstance. Gotham Central was excellent. Birds of Prey was excellent. Cry For Blood was excellent and Batman's all through it. I didn't read Azrael or Batgirl, but they had their fans too. Only you seem to think all these characters were defacto "weaker" because of being next to Batman.



She's a character so good, Batman kinda trusts her sometimes?

I can see why you wouldn't want her moved away from such awesome treatment.

Considering the treatment is from the writers and not the setting there's not a lot one can do. Morrison had her side-by-side with Batman in the JLA to her betterment. Again, the idea that its the opposite is only in your mind. You have nothing in print to support it while I've given numerous examples to the contrary.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Yeah, because god knows if you were inspired to play football by Brett Farvre or guitar by Eric Clapton, the last thing you'd want to do is play with them. People hate being next to their idols. Oh, wait, they don't. In fact, they live for that.

You wouldn't base your entire career of living in their shadow though, would you?



The idea that being in the same city as Batman is to one's detriment exists solely in your mind and is based on nothing in print.

Despite the fact she can't keep her own series going?

Despite that if you're a knock off of a character, it's often best not to constantly highlight the fact that the character is a knock off of a better character.



Robin's book was excellent for years under the same circumstance. Gotham Central was excellent.

Robin's an essential part of the Batman mythos, and Batman absolutely dominated Gotham Central - personally I believe the series may have done better if nearly every storyline didn't have Batman swooping in and saving the day.
Really took the edge off of the characters achieving anything by having them always rely on him
The cops needing Batman works in Batman's books.
In a book about the elite unit of detectives, having them rely on him makes them seem weak.


Birds of Prey was excellent.
I only read the odd arc of it, and in none of those did being in Gotham seem like a big boost, or essential part of the series.
Heck, just scanning all the trades, most of the adventures seem to be set away from Gotham.

Probably to get the lead characters away from Batman's shadow so they can shine.



Cry For Blood was excellent and Batman's all through it. I didn't read Azrael or Batgirl, but they had their fans too.

Good point!
I remember hearing endless critics praising the mini, and the sales just shooting through the roof.
Actually, I don't.



Only you seem to think all these characters were defacto "weaker" because of being next to Batman.

Well, me and everyone who reads Batman but not the spin off titles, which always sell considerably weaker.


Considering the treatment is from the writers and not the setting there's not a lot one can do. Morrison had her side-by-side with Batman in the JLA to her betterment.

Yes,ten years after her post crisis debut (in her own mini, not a Batman book), he felt the need to have her join the JLA for training.

Having her be in his shadow really helped her development... how many other heroes, ten years old, need to be shown hanging out with other heroes, learning the ropes, to try and establish them as a high level hero?


Again, the idea that its the opposite is only in your mind.

Actually, it being a great boost to her (beyond the boost in sales of Batman completists) you haven't actually shown it helping her at all.
I know you want me to be some fool with no idea, but I think it's you letting your love of the character blind you to any faults.


You have nothing in print to support it while I've given numerous examples to the contrary.

Actually, you've given examples of stories where they are near each other/work together.
Nothing to say why these are good stories or better for the character.

As for me having nothing in print - I've pointed out how rarely Oracle and Huntress appear in print in Batman's own books.
He sure doesn't seem to consider them family there.

[Captain Jim]

And while it was published, Birds of Prey had the little bat on the cover marking it as part of the Bat line of books.

Well, yes and no. For a time that was true. And at the same time, BOP was solicited as part of the "Batman universe." But this all changed at the end of War Games, when Babs moved to Metropolis and pretty much severed her connection to Bruce. The "bat" was removed from the cover and, at the same time, BOP began to be solicited with their DC Universe titles.

[WorstThingUS]

You wouldn't base your entire career of living in their shadow though, would you?

You'd be hard pressed to find someone who wouldn't feel honored to stand in the shadow of the person who inspired them. And again, only you think this. The characters themselves do not.



Despite the fact she can't keep her own series going?

So character success and quality is based on sales? And she's popular enough to keep getting chances for 20 years.


Despite that if you're a knock off of a character, it's often best not to constantly highlight the fact that the character is a knock off of a better character.

Yes, that's so crippled the Green Lantern series. And Flash. And the Superman family.



Robin's an essential part of the Batman mythos, and Batman absolutely dominated Gotham Central - personally I believe the series may have done better if nearly every storyline didn't have Batman swooping in and saving the day.

Really took the edge off of the characters achieving anything by having them always rely on him

The cops needing Batman works in Batman's books.
In a book about the elite unit of detectives, having them rely on him makes them seem weak.

Don't know what book you were reading, but Batman actually left in the middle of one case leaving the cops to fend for themselves and did almost nothing halt the carnage of The Joker. And the very point of the book was what it was like being detectives in Batman's universe. They were never supposed to outside of his shadow.



I only read the odd arc of it, and in none of those did being in Gotham seem like a big boost, or essential part of the series.
Heck, just scanning all the trades, most of the adventures seem to be set away from Gotham.

Which does nothing to change the fact that they are still part of The Batman Family.



Good point!
I remember hearing endless critics praising the mini, and the sales just shooting through the roof.
Actually, I don't.

It is critically praised and again are you suggesting that a character's success can only be indicated by sales?



Well, me and everyone who reads Batman but not the spin off titles, which always sell considerably weaker.

And yet they still exist and keep coming.



Yes,ten years after her post crisis debut (in her own mini, not a Batman book), he felt the need to have her join the JLA for training.

Having her be in his shadow really helped her development... how many other heroes, ten years old, need to be shown hanging out with other heroes, learning the ropes, to try and establish them as a high level hero?

Pretty much every legacy hero in the JSA. That was at the heart of the storyline where the Kingdom Come Superman appeared.


Actually, it being a great boost to her (beyond the boost in sales of Batman completists) you haven't actually shown it helping her at all.
I know you want me to be some fool with no idea, but I think it's you letting your love of the character blind you to any faults.

No, you're just someone who's insisting that your opinion is reality and it's not the case. That there continues to exist a Bat-family of books is proof of how wrong you are. No one else feels this way and they prove it with the continued existence of the various books.



Actually, you've given examples of stories where they are near each other/work together.
Nothing to say why these are good stories or better for the character.

I don't have to. It's your contention that being next to Batman is bad. You're arguing against the status quo. The burden of proof is on you. Robin's book ran for 16 years and only stopped so Red Robin could come into existence. He had solo adventures in Gotham, in Batman's shadow but it didn't hurt him a bit. Nightwing's book only stopped so he could become Batman and again, Batman is all through that book, but not to his detriment. Batgirl, six years under the shadow and still there's another also in Gotham, also under the shadow. Azrael, two series since '95 and another coming. Catwoman, two long running series since '93 all in the shadow and now a third book with Harley and Ivy. Funny how there are so many series in Batman's shadow where you insist nothing should grow.


As for me having nothing in print - I've pointed out how rarely Oracle and Huntress appear in print in Batman's own books.
He sure doesn't seem to consider them family there.

But he's in theirs, which is the problem according to you and only you.

[Godlike13]

Well, yes and no. For a time that was true. And at the same time, BOP was solicited as part of the "Batman universe." But this all changed at the end of War Games, when Babs moved to Metropolis and pretty much severed her connection to Bruce. The "bat" was removed from the cover and, at the same time, BOP began to be solicited with their DC Universe titles.

Still was edited out of the Bat office tough.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

You'd be hard pressed to find someone who wouldn't feel honored to stand in the shadow of the person who inspired them. And again, only you think this. The characters themselves do not.

The characters are fictional and think whatever their writers and editors want them to think.


So character success and quality is based on sales? And she's popular enough to keep getting chances for 20 years.

One day, one of them will stick!


Yes, that's so crippled the Green Lantern series. And Flash. And the Superman family.

Green Lantern has two books, all the knock offs are contained in there.
Flash has one book.
Any and all 'knock off' or 'legacy' characters are acknowledged or dealt with in the book they spin out of.
Huntress and Oracle aren't.

Supergirl and Superboy are knock offs of Superman, but at least they are regularly acknowledged by Superman in his own book - one's his clone and one's his cousin, and both are named after him... that's a stronger connection than 'he inspired me to be so much more!'


Don't know what book you were reading, but Batman actually left in the middle of one case leaving the cops to fend for themselves and did almost nothing halt the carnage of The Joker.

I'll have a re-read of that one story when I get home to double check that, but he nearly always took down the bad guy.


And the very point of the book was what it was like being detectives in Batman's universe. They were never supposed to outside of his shadow.

Which is probably why it didn't sell, and the last issue to every storyline was always the worst - the main characters were all useless.



Which does nothing to change the fact that they are still part of The Batman Family.

Okay,. well Captain Jim has already shown that you are exagerrating the claims of how long they were there.
Beyond a Bat-logo in a corner, how were they part of the Bat family, when he isn't in most of their adventures, and most of their adventures aren't in Gotham?

Because you seem to be arguing it's more than a 'sales-booster' or editorial line, that there's an actual, in the DCU, 'Bat-Family' they are part of - beyond a logo on the corner of the books that was there for part of the run (which they later removed and the series kept going fine), how we they in his family?


It is critically praised and again are you suggesting that a character's success can only be indicated by sales?

How critically praised?
Which critics?
Asterios Polyp was critically praised, All Star Superman was critically praised.

These are books you hear about even if you didn't look for info about them.

Huntress: Cry For Blood is not one of those books.

And I'm not suggesting that sales indicate much, but just pointing out how much Batman sells compared to Huntress, apparently an integral part of his family.
Seems not too many consider her an essential part of his family, is all I'm saying.


And yet they still exist and keep coming.

And the more independent they are, the better they do - and Huntress hasn't really had her own one yet, so even Azrael gets treated as a better part of the family than she does.


Pretty much every legacy hero in the JSA. That was at the heart of the storyline where the Kingdom Come Superman appeared.

Most of the legacy heroes in JSA hadn't been around for ten years, and hadn't had their own mini's and such, and hadn't apparently been a member of the greatest crime fighters 'family' that whole time.

Man, the more I have to argue with you, the weaker and weaker a character she seems to be in terms of the DCU.
The best she's ever been was BoP, and you're the only person in the world who wants to think of that as a Bat-book.


No, you're just someone who's insisting that your opinion is reality and it's not the case. That there continues to exist a Bat-family of books is proof of how wrong you are.

No, I'm someone arguing with a fan who needs his heroine to be palsy-walsy with Batman.
The fact it's in a thread asking 'does she even know who he is' should get you thinking about the fact that she could spread her wings a little more, and be more interesting (and in their world, effective) the heck away from that guy.

[QUOTE]No one else feels this way and they prove it with the continued existence of the various books.

The non-bat Bat-books at the moment: Red Robin, Gotham City Sirens, Azrael, Detective Comics.
One is about a character searching for Batman, one has Batman in it most stories, one has just launched so we don't know how it will go, and one stars 'Bat-Woman' - and with a name like that, she's part of a 'Bat-Family' (although we'll see how long she lasts).
These books and characters, with the exception of Azrael, are tied in a lot more with Batman than the others, though all are in their first year, so we don't know what's got legs and what hasn't.


I don't have to. It's your contention that being next to Batman is bad. The burden of proof is on you. Robin's book ran for 16 years and only stopped so Red Robin could come into existence. He had solo adventures in Gotham, in Batman's shadow but it didn't hurt him a bit.

It's Robin, he's Batman's sidekick - he can be in Batman's shadow.
It makes sense to have him in Gotham.


Nightwing's book only stopped so he could become Batman and again, Batman is all through that book, but not to his detriment.

Yeah to his detriment! How the writers treat the character - as soon to overtake Batman in skill - as opposed to how he sells as Nightwing... that's too frighteningly different extremes.
I'm saying for all these characters they need to be built up as their own thing, not relying on Batman to appear all the time.
(Hilariously you are arguing that Nightwing in his shadow doesn't hurt him, when his origin is he became Nightwing to get out from under that shadow!)


Batgirl, six years under the shadow and still there's another also in Gotham, also under the shadow.

I can't follow that sentence.


Azrael, two series since '95 and another coming. Catwoman, two long running series since '93 all in the shadow and now a third book with Harley and Ivy.

Now in a third book with Harley And Ivy where Batman has been in almost every arc.


Funny how there are so many series in Batman's shadow where you insist nothing should grow.

How many there have been - these don't all exist at the same time.
When the market is up and anything sells, these series bloom.
When it crashes they all disappear or get combined.



But he's in theirs, which is the problem according to you and only you.

To boost sales perhaps?

Honestly guy, what's your big issue with me saying the characters would be better served away from him?
I'm saying I think the characters are strong enough to do their own thing, have their own cities and rogues galleries to deal with.
If the best you think these characters can be are heroes who need Batman's help to take down the Joker, then okay, enjoy them.
I'm saying they should be out in the world, fighting their own villains as strong as the Joker.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Still was edited out of the Bat office tough.

Yeah that is tough, but WorstThingUs is also arguing that it's not just the editors, they are part of some Bat-family - like in those crudely drawn pics he posted.

I'm not arguing that occasionally DC likes to have a crossover and the extra books are good to boost revenue when they do, I'm just saying that too much of it is strangling these characters, and that'd they'd be better off as characters, and better reads, the heck away from him.

[WorstThingUS]

Honestly guy, what's your big issue with me saying the characters would be better served away from him?
I'm saying I think the characters are strong enough to do their own thing, have their own cities and rogues galleries to deal with.
If the best you think these characters can be are heroes who need Batman's help to take down the Joker, then okay, enjoy them.
I'm saying they should be out in the world, fighting their own villains as strong as the Joker.

Hey, you started this tangent by saying that The Huntress, Bird of Prey etc were not part of the Batman family and they are. DC clearly markets and writes them as being such. They even published the mini series Batman Family making this crystal clear. You may not like it (as your mocking of art that DC puts out clarifying this shows), but that doesn't change the facts anymore than it changes that they've been selling books with almost everyone based in Gotham for 15 years, so it's clearly not the detriment you say it is. Again, you may prefer otherwise, but that's not the same as stating it as a fact, which it is not.

So basically, your signature needs a change.

[Godlike13]

Yeah that is tough, but WorstThingUs is also arguing that it's not just the editors, they are part of some Bat-family - like in those crudely drawn pics he posted.

Only Oracle. She took Batman's oath, and a lot of her tech came from him. The other are just Bat Family associates.

[WorstThingUS]

Yeah that is tough, but WorstThingUs is also arguing that it's not just the editors, they are part of some Bat-family - like in those crudely drawn pics he posted.


Scott McDaniel draws crudely in your eyes? What a wonderful world you live in if he's a bad artist.

And clearly I've hijacked the DC website to offer those figures as the copy states: "The bases of each piece slide together to form a shot of the entire Batman family on a rooftop overlooking Gotham. Each of the three parts includes a piece of the fourth portion of the scene, which can be easily assembled to form Batman, who looms in the back of the scene. All three parts of the statue are needed to make Batman." And this wasn't the climax of an eight part mini-series put out by DC in 2002:

http://www.angrygeek.com/mainwebsite_html/batmanfamily.jpg

Yep, nothing "familial" about that.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

I think Huntress' dynamic with Batman, with her as the vigilante that really would like to earn Batman's respect, but has trouble connecting with him and ends up a bit of an outsider, is an interesting aspect to her character, and an important one. Or I should say, WAS. She has earned his respect already, she has gotten over that stage of her life, and now, I think her connection to the Bat-family isn't as important, as she has moved on as a character.

While I prefer her in Gotham, I don't think it's really neccesary for her to be in the Bat-family anymore. But I don't think it hurts her to be there, either.

[The Batman]

Only Oracle. She took Batman's oath, and a lot of her tech came from him. The other are just Bat Family associates.

Bat extended family?

[dumbstruck]

I think Huntress' dynamic with Batman, with her as the vigilante that really would like to earn Batman's respect, but has trouble connecting with him and ends up a bit of an outsider, is an interesting aspect to her character, and an important one. Or I should say, WAS. She has earned his respect already, she has gotten over that stage of her life, and now, I think her connection to the Bat-family isn't as important, as she has moved on as a character.

While I prefer her in Gotham, I don't think it's really neccesary for her to be in the Bat-family anymore. But I don't think it hurts her to be there, either.


I think she also ends up filling a niche. With Batman busy battling the freaks and geeks, Huntress is usually pitted against "traditional" organized crime.

[WorstThingUS]

While I prefer her in Gotham, I don't think it's really neccesary for her to be in the Bat-family anymore. But I don't think it hurts her to be there, either.

Well, it's been established that Gotham has gotten worse in the wake of Batman's apparent death so everyone has to up their game a bit to fill the gap.

But I do agree with Mia (never thought I'd say those words) that if she has to be told who Dick and Tim really are, then it will make her out to look like a consummate idiot. Granted, she's never been portrayed a a detective, but come on!

[pariah-1972]

She probably has some idea who Batman really is but honestly Booster Gold knows who he is so it's a not big deal either way, but i like Huntress as the perpetual outsider from the Bat Family by her own choice.

[brenticles]

She probably has some idea who Batman really is but honestly Booster Gold knows who he is so it's a not big deal either way, but i like Huntress as the perpetual outsider from the Bat Family by her own choice.

Booster knows becasue he is from the future. He certainly didn't figure it out.

The way I see it is that Helena has spent enough time with Oracle and Nightwing to figure it all out, but has chosen not to bring it up. The only other answer is she is a total idiot, and she not written that way.

[pariah-1972]

Booster knows becasue he is from the future. He certainly didn't figure it out.

The way I see it is that Helena has spent enough time with Oracle and Nightwing to figure it all out, but has chosen not to bring it up. The only other answer is she is a total idiot, and she not written that way.Agreed 100%

[WorstThingUS]

Booster knows becasue he is from the future. He certainly didn't figure it out.

The way I see it is that Helena has spent enough time with Oracle and Nightwing to figure it all out, but has chosen not to bring it up. The only other answer is she is a total idiot, and she not written that way.

I think they exhausted suspension of disbelief the moment he turned up on live TV with Hush/Bruce giving away a billion dollars. It was clearly national if not worldwide news. Hopefully Rucka will do the honors when it comes up.

[Jeremi]

Honestly guy, what's your big issue with me saying the characters would be better served away from him?
I'm saying I think the characters are strong enough to do their own thing, have their own cities and rogues galleries to deal with.
If the best you think these characters can be are heroes who need Batman's help to take down the Joker, then okay, enjoy them.
I'm saying they should be out in the world, fighting their own villains as strong as the Joker.

But then we can't have stories like...

Huntress gets in trouble and Batman bails her out.
Huntress does something wrong and Batman comes to reprimand her.
Huntress gets captured and is rescued by Batman.
Huntress feels down and Batman comes to cheer her up with hot coco.

Etc, ect, ect.

I totally get what you're saying (I think :biggrin: ). Let's say hypothetically Huntress gets her own book and it's set in Gotham. Having her book set in Gotham makes it automatically become Huntress CO-STARRING BATMAN. There's no growth, no let Huntress do it her own way. The bat shadow would always be looming over her.

[dumbstruck]

Let's say hypothetically Huntress gets her own book and it's set in Gotham. Having her book set in Gotham makes it automatically become Huntress CO-STARRING BATMAN. There's no growth, no let Huntress do it her own way. The bat shadow would always be looming over her.

There's no reason why this should be so. Except for editorial's perhaps misguided assumption that Batman appearances will increase sales. A perfectly good Huntress series could be set in Gotham with very little crossover of the Bat-Team.

[Jeremi]

There's no reason why this should be so. Except for editorial's perhaps misguided assumption that Batman appearances will increase sales. A perfectly good Huntress series could be set in Gotham with very little crossover of the Bat-Team.

It's probably not misguided, Batman making an appearance will most probably boost sales. It's an easy thing to fall on when something is set in Gotham. Bring in the Bat.

[WorstThingUS]

Let's say hypothetically Huntress gets her own book and it's set in Gotham. Having her book set in Gotham makes it automatically become Huntress CO-STARRING BATMAN. There's no growth, no let Huntress do it her own way. The bat shadow would always be looming over her.

Yeah, because he saved Robin all the time. Except he didn't. And he saved the BOP all time. Except he didn't. And he saved the GPD all the time. Except he didn't. And he saved Batgirl all the time. Except he didn't. And he saved Catwoman all the time. Except...well, you get it.

His presence was there, clearly, considering NONE OF THESE CHARACTERS EVEN EXIST WITHOUT HIM, but he wasn't saving anyone so I don't know where this assumption he'd be saving The Huntress all the time comes from.


There's no reason why this should be so. Except for editorial's perhaps misguided assumption that Batman appearances will increase sales. A perfectly good Huntress series could be set in Gotham with very little crossover of the Bat-Team.

Robin was living in the Mansion and still Batman was not a regular visitor in his books. It's entirely possible, but as noted, not for lazy writers and editors.

[dumbstruck]

It's probably not misguided, Batman making an appearance will most probably boost sales. It's an easy thing to fall on when something is set in Gotham. Bring in the Bat.


I think it is a little misguided. A Batman appearance may give a bit of a spike with that particular issue, but it won't have an affect on the series sales as a whole. Robin. Catwoman. BOP. Nightwing. All proved they can be successful with minimal Batman appearances.

[brenticles]

But then we can't have stories like...

Huntress gets in trouble and Batman bails her out.
Huntress does something wrong and Batman comes to reprimand her.
Huntress gets captured and is rescued by Batman.
Huntress feels down and Batman comes to cheer her up with hot coco.

Etc, ect, ect.

I totally get what you're saying (I think :biggrin: ). Let's say hypothetically Huntress gets her own book and it's set in Gotham. Having her book set in Gotham makes it automatically become Huntress CO-STARRING BATMAN. There's no growth, no let Huntress do it her own way. The bat shadow would always be looming over her.

Even if Huntress is on the other side of the world there is nothing that stops those story events from happening. Batman is mega-wealthy and very resourceful so there is no reason he couldn’t rescue/reprimand/reassure at any time. The location of the story is not an issue; it’s all in how a writer would handle the character. Gail did a great job and the foundation she made could be built on by another creative team to great effect.

[brenticles]

I think it is a little misguided. A Batman appearance may give a bit of a spike with that particular issue, but it won't have an affect on the series sales as a whole. Robin. Catwoman. BOP. Nightwing. All proved they can be successful with minimal Batman appearances.

Yes, but Batman crossovers would double sales on those books so I don't think it's misguided at all.

[dumbstruck]

Yes, but Batman crossovers would double sales on those books so I don't think it's misguided at all.


If it's a story crossover, maybe. But we're talking simple appearances. Just having him appear won't substantially increase sales.

[brenticles]

I think they exhausted suspension of disbelief the moment he turned up on live TV with Hush/Bruce giving away a billion dollars. It was clearly national if not worldwide news. Hopefully Rucka will do the honors when it comes up.

I don’t understand what you mean. Bruce Wayne is written as the wealthiest man in the world whose parents tragically died and who is also known for dating a different movie star or model almost every week. His face would be plastered on every entertainment show and in every tabloid along with the faces of his adopted sons. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen him give news conferences in some other issues.

[Jeremi]

His presence was there, clearly, considering NONE OF THESE CHARACTERS EVEN EXIST WITHOUT HIM, but he wasn't saving anyone so I don't know where this assumption he'd be saving The Huntress all the time comes from.

A hero in Gotham always plays second fiddle to Batman. Batman always has a little part in the stories. Well I really don't have the energy to do a re-tread. To keep it short, I don't get why Huntress has to be in Gotham to be relevant. From reading this thread it seems that Huntress would wither and die if she'd work outside of Gotham.


I think it is a little misguided. A Batman appearance may give a bit of a spike with that particular issue, but it won't have an affect on the series sales as a whole. Robin. Catwoman. BOP. Nightwing. All proved they can be successful with minimal Batman appearances.

Yeah...that's what I ment. Need some spark in the sales bring in the Bat for a couple of issues. It would be great if a Huntress ongoing could be successful. She's not one of favorites but I'd probably give a series a shot.


Even if Huntress is on the other side of the world there is nothing that stops those story events from happening. Batman is mega-wealthy and very resourceful so there is no reason he couldn’t rescue/reprimand/reassure at any time. The location of the story is not an issue; it’s all in how a writer would handle the character. Gail did a great job and the foundation she made could be built on by another creative team to great effect.

Yep I enjoyed her under Gails pen as well. But going by the thread, Huntress needs the Bat-Family to survive. To validate her existents the bat shadow has to loom over her, yes she modeled herself after Batman, but she's still her own character.

[WorstThingUS]

I don’t understand what you mean. Bruce Wayne is written as the wealthiest man in the world whose parents tragically died and who is also known for dating a different movie star or model almost every week. His face would be plastered on every entertainment show and in every tabloid along with the faces of his adopted sons. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen him give news conferences in some other issues.

Bruce for sure, but not Dick. Granted he should be well known, but can't recall anything recently that clear-cut when we know for sure she's in Gotham. Every paper and every TV news report should have been "Hey, that's Nightwing!" for her. "And if Dick is Nightwing..."


A hero in Gotham always plays second fiddle to Batman. Batman always has a little part in the stories. Well I really don't have the energy to do a re-tread. To keep it short, I don't get why Huntress has to be in Gotham to be relevant. From reading this thread it seems that Huntress would wither and die if she'd work outside of Gotham.


She doesn't need to be, but it's not this "kiss of death" as other books have clearly shown. Hell, Batman's shadow was over Nightwing but he wasn't in Gotham.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Scott McDaniel draws crudely in your eyes? What a wonderful world you live in if he's a bad artist.

McDaniel is servicable, but that was far from the best picture he's ever done.



And clearly I've hijacked the DC website to offer those figures as the copy states: "The bases of each piece slide together to form a shot of the entire Batman family on a rooftop overlooking Gotham. Each of the three parts includes a piece of the fourth portion of the scene, which can be easily assembled to form Batman, who looms in the back of the scene. All three parts of the statue are needed to make Batman."

Gee, you're right, if an action figure/model kit tie-in says they are a family, they must be!



And this wasn't the climax of an eight part mini-series put out by DC in 2002:

http://www.angrygeek.com/mainwebsite_html/batmanfamily.jpg

Yep, nothing "familial" about that.

What mini was this?

Because I don't remember it.

Which means it wasn't a particularly big book, in terms of sales or strong reviews.
Perhaps they tried it out there, realised it didn't really work, and let it drop?

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Well, it's been established that Gotham has gotten worse in the wake of Batman's apparent death so everyone has to up their game a bit to fill the gap.

That would make more sense if you hadn't been arguing using plenty examples that feature Bruce.



I totally get what you're saying (I think :biggrin: ). Let's say hypothetically Huntress gets her own book and it's set in Gotham. Having her book set in Gotham makes it automatically become Huntress CO-STARRING BATMAN. There's no growth, no let Huntress do it her own way. The bat shadow would always be looming over her.

You've got it.

I think she's enough of a character to move away from that, but her so-called fanbase have issues with it.


There's no reason why this should be so. Except for editorial's perhaps misguided assumption that Batman appearances will increase sales. A perfectly good Huntress series could be set in Gotham with very little crossover of the Bat-Team.

It's not a misguided assumption, it works - that why they do it, and why these books stay in his shadow.

What advantage is there to her being in Gotham?
All Gotham is, really, is the stomping ground of Batman's villains.
And you can't have Huntress fighting Batman's villains all the time - because then it doesn't make sense that Batman isn't involved.
At least in another city you could have Joker pop up, and it would make sense that Batman isn't on the scene straight away.



Yeah, because he saved Robin all the time. Except he didn't. And he saved the BOP all time. Except he didn't.

Well, Robin fought considerably lesser villains out in the suburbs.

BoP moved away from Gotham, and most stories were set outside of it - you're the only one hooked on it's gotham days.



And he saved the GPD all the time. Except he didn't.

Except in nearly every story arc, he did.

Even that Joker one you said he didn't help them in?
He appears several time throughout it, helping the police at key points.


His presence was there, clearly, considering NONE OF THESE CHARACTERS EVEN EXIST WITHOUT HIM, but he wasn't saving anyone so I don't know where this assumption he'd be saving The Huntress all the time comes from.

Huntress can't exist without him in Earth Two.
In this Earth, 'she took inspiration from him'... mainly because they wanted a Batman connection in there too keep her Bat-centric fans (you!) happy.
Just because she was inspired by him to take the fight back to crime doesn't mean she has to do it in his city!


It's entirely possible, but as noted, not for lazy writers and editors.

Actually, it would be more lazy, and make the Batman seem lazy, for her too be having massive kick-ass adventures in Gotham, without Bats getting wind.

That's why she would work better in her own city - anything could happen.

[beetlebum]

I disagree. Batman has been doing things right for years, she doesn't like it she can get the hell out of Gotham or get beat down.

This right here, is the reason why I can't take your arguments seriously. You seem to be incapable of admitting your favourite character can do any wrong. Then again, you didn't come in here to give a proper argument now did you? (Mainly because you probably lack the ability to formulate one). You just came in here to insult a character that you've reduced down to essentialist assumptions. After all, why take the time to actually do some research when you can just have at it?


In all reality, Huntress by now should have been able to
figure it out on her own. But since she's been retconned into an imbecile, the only way she will figure out who Batman really is when she is told by Oracle. Just like everything else.

Just because Helena turns to Oracle for guidance doesn't make her an 'imbecile' (using those descriptors for her makes me grit my teeth.) If anything, it makes her come across as more insecure than anything else. Though I will cede to you that we need to see more instances of Helena bringing about amelioration in a given situation, and solving problems on her own. If I had my way, she'd be Veronica Mars like clever.

As for whether Helena 'belongs' in the 'Bat-Family': I want to invoke the signifier/signified concept here, but since I'm too damn lazy to do the research, I'll just simplify it and echo the sentiments of a few other posters before me and say that I think Huntress should move away from Gotham and develop on her own as a character.

She has the potential, but I feel that she's being held back. Also, I just wanted to clarify that there seems to be an indication, or indicators that there are indicators that Helena is past the "desperately-wanting-approval" from Batman stage. I think she got over that after her disastrous affair with Nightwing.

[WorstThingUS]

Gee, you're right, if an action figure/model kit tie-in says they are a family, they must be!

Yeah, completely ignore that it's put out by DC Comics because otherwise your argument is shut down. Then again all the artwork should have shut it down, but you're good at ignoring facts you don't like.


What mini was this?

Because I don't remember it.

Which means it wasn't a particularly big book, in terms of sales or strong reviews.
Perhaps they tried it out there, realised it didn't really work, and let it drop?

This mini:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_aOehWq6bi9Y/SYSPPrm7pNI/AAAAAAAACN0/UrkYbTs9Zbo/s400/batman+family+4+of+8-00fc-qpr.jpg

Which was a post crisis version of this:

http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/batman-family/17-1.jpg

...which goes back to this from Batman creator Bob Kane himself:

http://www.quickstopentertainment.com/comics101/images/2003/dec10/onebighappyfamily.jpg

So this idea has been kicking around for 50 years now. There's a Batman Family. All your insistence there isn't pretty much puts you against reality.




What advantage is there to her being in Gotham?
All Gotham is, really, is the stomping ground of Batman's villains.
And you can't have Huntress fighting Batman's villains all the time - because then it doesn't make sense that Batman isn't involved.
At least in another city you could have Joker pop up, and it would make sense that Batman isn't on the scene straight away.

She's from Gotham. The mob that killed her family still exists in Gotham. Why would she leave?


Well, Robin fought considerably lesser villains out in the suburbs.

He wasn't always in the suburbs and the point is clear. His book was set in Gotham and was very successful without relying on Batman.



BoP moved away from Gotham, and most stories were set outside of it - you're the only one hooked on it's gotham days.

Oracle, lived in Gotham until the Metropolis move. When Blockbuster came for her, he came to Gotham, not Casablanca.



Even that Joker one you said he didn't help them in?
He appears several time throughout it, helping the police at key points.

Except for all the cops murdered and maimed by the Joker you mean? Or when he just up and disappears in the arc with Dr. Alchemy leaving the cops on their own. There wasn't a lot of Batman saving anyone.



Huntress can't exist without him in Earth Two.

99% of her existence has been without him considering he's dead there.


In this Earth, 'she took inspiration from him'... mainly because they wanted a Batman connection in there too keep her Bat-centric fans (you!) happy.
Just because she was inspired by him to take the fight back to crime doesn't mean she has to do it in his city!

Again, learn something about the character. She's from Gotham. The trauma that created her happened in Gotham. You might as well ask why Batman doesn't leave.



That's why she would work better in her own city - anything could happen.

Location means nothing. Batman's shadow was much over Nightwing in Bludhaven and NYC as it was over Batgirl, Robin and Azrael in Gotham and all these books sold well for years and now there's a whole new crop of them.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Yeah, completely ignore that it's put out by DC Comics because otherwise your argument is shut down.

No I ignore it because it's in no way relevant - if they think they can get money from it they will.
why just sell one model, when you can convince people to by two or three and click them together?


Then again all the artwork should have shut it down, but you're good at ignoring facts you don't like.

The only thing that art work shut was my eyes.
That pic with Azrael in his red and blue uniform was disgusting.



This mini:


OH, that mini!
Yeah, how could I forget that!
What with all the reprints, and critical re-appraisals, and a different thread about it every week.

Seriously, all your evidence seems to be books or tie-ins that don't sell well or get any attention.
This is exactly why I'm saying these characters should spread their wings - because maybe then they will be in books that sell, and then you get more different adventures to read, and DC makes more money.
Now why wouldn't you want that?


So this idea has been kicking around for 50 years now. There's a Batman Family.

Firstly, The Huntress isn't in the Kane picture - I believe that features, Batman, Robin, Bat-Woman, Bat Girl, Bat Mite, Bat-Hound and Alfred and the Commissioner.
So even if I accepted a 'Bat-family' as a winning concept, Nightwing, Huntress and Oracle don't fit into the tradition!
And apparently we need the Bat-Hound back as well!

Secondly, how many times have the jettisoned the 'family'?
Batman works better alone, or with just Robin as his side kick.
Time and time again the books self correct and reflect this.




All your insistence there isn't pretty much puts you against reality.[/QUOTE]

Stop with this 'your arguing in the face of reality'.
I'm not, I'm arguing with a Huntress fan, who thinks the character is integral to the bat-books, and they too her.



She's from Gotham. The mob that killed her family still exists in Gotham. Why would she leave?

Why start her in Gotham?
What advantage is there to having her in Gotham?

Actually think outside of the DC scripture you've read - spare me from any speeches she's made about Gotham - beyond tying her to Batman, which I don't think was for the characters best, why have her in Gotham?

This is the problem - I'm asking you to actually think about the characters in the scheme of 'DC Comics', not from within the stories themselves, and you're refusing to do that.
(Well I assume you are if a John Francis Moore mini from seven year ago as hard proof that you're right)


He wasn't always in the suburbs and the point is clear. His book was set in Gotham and was very successful without relying on Batman.

There was plenty of Batman - the kid works out of the Bat-Cave!!!



Oracle, lived in Gotham until the Metropolis move. When Blockbuster came for her, he came to Gotham, not Casablanca.

Wow.
Guess that proves that Oracle needs Gotham and Gotham needs her, and that she's a character intrinsically tied to that location, and those books, and all that time in the Suicide Squad and BoP when they weren't in Gotham were horrific misuses of the character.



Except for all the cops murdered and maimed by the Joker you mean? Or when he just up and disappears in the arc with Dr. Alchemy leaving the cops on their own. There wasn't a lot of Batman saving anyone.

Okay, he didn't save every cop - he doesn't in Batman stories either - but the main cast of cops?
Yup, he saves them in almost every story, even after they declare war on him.
You said he wasn't in the Joker arc, yet when I checked, he's actually all through it.
(Huntress didn't appear once! Nor Oracle!)

So, if you can avoid making up exceptions that don't exist, Batman was all through Gotham Central, and it seriously weakened the main characters as they felt over reliant on him.


99% of her existence has been without him considering he's dead there.

And that's why it makes much more sense to play up the Batman connection - well, there's an actual connection there - as well as setting her in Gotham.
In Earth-Two, Huntress makes a lot more sense.
Here, her strong ties to Batman are infinitely weaker, and it was a bad idea to bring her back and to try and force ties between the characters.



Again, learn something about the character. She's from Gotham. The trauma that created her happened in Gotham. You might as well ask why Batman doesn't leave.


As mentioned before, that's not what I'm talking about.

Why is she in Gotham?
Does Gotham need her?



Location means nothing. Batman's shadow was much over Nightwing in Bludhaven and NYC as it was over Batgirl, Robin and Azrael in Gotham and all these books sold well for years
That's your opinion.
You previously listed him Nightwing fighting Scarecrow as a Batman appearance, and I think you are very much down playing the shadow in Robin and Batgirl.

[Mia]

*shrug* Its dumb. Its not that she doesn't have a place. It's just she doesn't need them. The character is fine on her own -- I agree Alan, we need more superheroes to tell Bat to shove it.

BINGO.

The thing with Huntress. I have never subscribed to the fact that Huntress is Batman's rebellious daughter. Helena Bertinelli is the polar opposite of Helena Wayne. And to be frank I have never seen an interaction between Batman and Huntress which looks anything like a father-daughter relationship. He never raised her or trained her. More often than not they fight like a couple. Just because he inspired her to become Huntress does not make her his daughter. Pat Conroy inspired me to write. Yet I would never consider Pat Conroy to be my father.

I think that part of the reason Huntress does not get along with Batman is due to the fact that a) both of them have the same un-yielding personality, b) Huntress can't/won't put up with Batman's blatant dis-respect. Yet at the same time they have a grudging respect for each other.

[Lemurion]

I've never quite got the Helena Bertinelli Huntress. I liked Helena Wayne - but Helena Bertinelli never really fit for me.

Having said that, I do think she does better as an outsider than core member of the Bat family. The only problem is that that's a role that has been taken over by Batwoman - and Kate Kane is doing it better.

As for other members of the Bat family, my own thought is that Dick Grayson is a core member of the Bat family, but Nightwing doesn't have to be.

[Mia]

Having said that, I do think she does better as an outsider than core member of the Bat family. The only problem is that that's a role that has been taken over by Batwoman - and Kate Kane is doing it better.


Right. It's sort of why the character has sort of become redundant. And why I've lost interest in her.

[Free-Man]

I've never quite got the Helena Bertinelli Huntress. I liked Helena Wayne - but Helena Bertinelli never really fit for me.

Having said that, I do think she does better as an outsider than core member of the Bat family. The only problem is that that's a role that has been taken over by Batwoman - and Kate Kane is doing it better.

As for other members of the Bat family, my own thought is that Dick Grayson is a core member of the Bat family, but Nightwing doesn't have to be.

Well, I think Huntress has pretty much been left out to dry by this whole Batman Reborn thing. They're focussing on every member of the Bat-family except for her at this point. Even Cass Cain is supposed to be a supporting player in Batgirl at some point.

[WorstThingUS]

No I ignore it because it's in no way relevant - if they think they can get money from it they will.
why just sell one model, when you can convince people to by two or three and click them together?

You ignore it because it shows you DC promotes a Batman Family from all possible aspects, something you claim doesn't exist.



OH, that mini!
Yeah, how could I forget that!
What with all the reprints, and critical re-appraisals, and a different thread about it every week.

Seriously, all your evidence seems to be books or tie-ins that don't sell well or get any attention.
This is exactly why I'm saying these characters should spread their wings - because maybe then they will be in books that sell, and then you get more different adventures to read, and DC makes more money.
Now why wouldn't you want that?

Again you try to dodge, but the fact is: YOU SAID NO "BATMAN FAMILY" EXISTS. DC Comics says different and has been publishing one in one form or another for 50 years.



Firstly, The Huntress isn't in the Kane picture - I believe that features, Batman, Robin, Bat-Woman, Bat Girl, Bat Mite, Bat-Hound and Alfred and the Commissioner.
So even if I accepted a 'Bat-family' as a winning concept, Nightwing, Huntress and Oracle don't fit into the tradition!
And apparently we need the Bat-Hound back as well!

Secondly, how many times have the jettisoned the 'family'?
Batman works better alone, or with just Robin as his side kick.
Time and time again the books self correct and reflect this.

You said it didn't exist at all, so how could it be jettisoned?



Stop with this 'your arguing in the face of reality'.
I'm not, I'm arguing with a Huntress fan, who thinks the character is integral to the bat-books, and they too her.

That's a different point. You also said The Huntress wasn't part of the Bat Family when she clearly is, you know being on the cover of a book called BATMAN FAMILY and being based on a character that was also in a book called BATMAN FAMILY.


Why start her in Gotham?
What advantage is there to having her in Gotham?

She's a dark reflection of Bruce. All rage.


Actually think outside of the DC scripture you've read - spare me from any speeches she's made about Gotham - beyond tying her to Batman, which I don't think was for the characters best, why have her in Gotham?

But that's just it. She flat out doesn't exist beyond a nostalgia for Batman's daughter. I'll be the first one to tell you that. She exists for me, not you. No one had a great idea for a female Batman, but darker. They started from "How to we put The Huntress into a world where she can't be Batman's biological daughter?" All she is comes from that.


This is the problem - I'm asking you to actually think about the characters in the scheme of 'DC Comics', not from within the stories themselves, and you're refusing to do that.
(Well I assume you are if a John Francis Moore mini from seven year ago as hard proof that you're right)

Our difference is this: you think all of the Bat-lineage suffer from proximity. I do not and I feel that the success of the various Bat-books over the years show that most people feel the same way. Not to mention a good writer like Chuck Dixon didn't lean on Batman to carry the books he was writing (Robin, BOP, Nightwing), but you knew they were family because these are basically "the kids" carrying on the work.



There was plenty of Batman - the kid works out of the Bat-Cave!!!

And yet the book was never "Batman and Robin." He worked out of the batcave and you still rarely saw Batman.



Okay, he didn't save every cop - he doesn't in Batman stories either - but the main cast of cops?
Yup, he saves them in almost every story, even after they declare war on him.
You said he wasn't in the Joker arc, yet when I checked, he's actually all through it.

I remember mass slaughter to the point where the Joker's continued survival was both ridiculous and insulting. That storyline was like the last act of Hamlet.


So, if you can avoid making up exceptions that don't exist, Batman was all through Gotham Central, and it seriously weakened the main characters as they felt over reliant on him.

The raison d'etre of the book was cops in the shadow of the Batman and I think the cover of the first issue was a clue:

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/brubaker-rucka.jpg

So you're complaining that Batman was in a book about cops when it was supposed to be about how cops dealt with Batman. And I didn't make up the Dr. Alchemy storyline. One moment he's fighting a monster he should beat easily and then he disappears leaving the cops to fend for themselves, which of course ends with a dead cop. No Batman saving there either.



You previously listed him Nightwing fighting Scarecrow as a Batman appearance, and I think you are very much down playing the shadow in Robin and Batgirl.

Never read Batgirl, but I read Robin, BOP and Nightwing and Batman's shadow was there, but he was hardly in every issue and those books are proof that being connected to him or near him does not necessarily work towards the detriment of a character. And beyond that you have Azrael: Agent of the Bat and Catwoman, more examples of Bat-books that did well enough enough for them to keep recreating them.

You don't like them all being connected to Batman, that's clear, but your insistence it's bad for them has no basis in what's actually been published for the last 15 years and continues to this day.

[Mia]

Well, I think Huntress has pretty much been left out to dry by this whole Batman Reborn thing. They're focussing on every member of the Bat-family except for her at this point. Even Cass Cain is supposed to be a supporting player in Batgirl at some point.

Rucka said that he will be using her in an up-coming arc of 'Tec. Apparently she's supposed to be a (girl)friend to Montoya's Question.

[Free-Man]

Rucka said that he will be using her in an up-coming arc of 'Tec. Apparently she's supposed to be a (girl)friend to Montoya's Question.

Makes sense considering her friendship with th original Question.

[Mia]

Makes sense considering her friendship with th original Question.

I don't know how Montoya compares with the original Question. But I remember that apart from the romantic interest. Vic Sage (The Question #1) had a sort of calming influence on Huntress. He was the one who asked her to stop and think about what she was doing and whether or not (her going off half-cocked) was helping to solve the problem at hand.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

You ignore it because it shows you DC promotes a Batman Family from all possible aspects, something you claim doesn't exist.

Who are you arguing with?
I never said there's no such thing as the 'Bat-Family', just I don't feel Huntress is part of it or belongs as part of it, and her continued forced connection with the books hurts her as a character.
(Something you've not actually argued against - you can show pictures and issues that she appeared with Batman in, but haven't shown any great moments or stories that really helped/boosted her as a character).

Also, I really wouldn't take a mini from seven years ago, that didn't get any attention or big sales, and say that it counts as DC promoting the 'Bat-Family'.



Again you try to dodge, but the fact is: YOU SAID NO "BATMAN FAMILY" EXISTS. DC Comics says different and has been publishing one in one form or another for 50 years.

No I didn't.


You said it didn't exist at all, so how could it be jettisoned?

I never said that.

(I feel I should get some sort of Moral win here for not having put words in the other posters mouth!)



That's a different point. You also said The Huntress wasn't part of the Bat Family when she clearly is, you know being on the cover of a book called BATMAN FAMILY and being based on a character that was also in a book called BATMAN FAMILY.


I don't accept one mini that made no type of a splash at all as definitive proof.


She's a dark reflection of Bruce. All rage.

Because Batman's such a bright and happy character, that he needs a dark reflection of himself around?

Heck, I remember when they did a whole storyline about that... they used Jean-Paul Valley though, not Huntress.


But that's just it. She flat out doesn't exist beyond a nostalgia for Batman's daughter. I'll be the first one to tell you that. She exists for me, not you. No one had a great idea for a female Batman, but darker. They started from "How to we put The Huntress into a world where she can't be Batman's biological daughter?" All she is comes from that.


And that's why I don't think she works - she has no reason or place in the DCU at the moment/since her origin.
BoP worked so well with the character because it wasn't all about her and Batman, it was about her and her friends.
Get the character out of Gotham and away from Batman - it'll stop the constant comparisons where she always comes out second or third, and it will give the character some depth.


Our difference is this: you think all of the Bat-lineage suffer from proximity. I do not and I feel that the success of the various Bat-books over the years show that most people feel the same way.

Not just in Gotham proximity either, by being in a line with him, I feel they suffer.

not Robin though, he works in solo adventures being in Gotham and around Batman all the time... the others, not so much.
Nightwing for instance, was created to show Dick Grayson becoming his own superhero - having him constantly tied in doesn't really let him progress beyond 'grown up side kick', which is why so many writers have done the 'Dick becomes his own man and steps out of the shadows' story, because having him constantly around Batman puts him back in the shadow as he'll always come in second (even on the odd occasion he does save the day).


Not to mention a good writer like Chuck Dixon didn't lean on Batman to carry the books he was writing (Robin, BOP, Nightwing), but you knew they were family because these are basically "the kids" carrying on the work.

Actually, your argument before was that he did lean on Batman with Nightwing - making it definitely part of the Bat-Family because of the amount of Batman in it.

Which is it?



And yet the book was never "Batman and Robin." He worked out of the batcave and you still rarely saw Batman.

No, it was never Batman and Robin, but Batman's presence was there, either physically, or Tim thinking about him.
It was a good book (I've only got the first trade... wish they'd collect more of the Dixon run).


I remember mass slaughter to the point where the Joker's continued survival was both ridiculous and insulting. That storyline was like the last act of Hamlet.

Yup, and both the cops and Batman work over time to try and put an end to it.
Only the cops rely on Batman heavily during that storyline.


The raison d'etre of the book was cops in the shadow of the Batman and I think the cover of the first issue was a clue:

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/brubaker-rucka.jpg

Yup, it was a series about the elite unit of Gotham City detectives, a look at what it was like for cops to work in Batman's world.
That doesn't mean it had to be a series about a bunch of cops working a case until Batman steps in (Batman who was quite often a step ahead of the cops the whole time).

I personally think the book failed because despite have strong characters who were highly intelligent, they were neutered by over-relying on Batman.
Now, whether the book would have worked if they'd removed him, or the idea of regular cops and super-crooks is jut flawed from the outset, I don't know, but it hurts the series.


So you're complaining that Batman was in a book about cops when it was supposed to be about how cops dealt with Batman. And I didn't make up the Dr. Alchemy storyline. One moment he's fighting a monster he should beat easily and then he disappears leaving the cops to fend for themselves, which of course ends with a dead cop. No Batman saving there either.

Which issues is that?

I'll take another look when I get home (sorry, but you were totally wrong on the Joker one, so I can't take your word for it!).

One of the few stories he wasn't in, was the character assassination job they tried to do on Harvey Bullock... that one I'm truly glad he wasn't in - might've added some legitimacy to the story in the eyes of the editors or something.



Never read Batgirl, but I read Robin, BOP and Nightwing and Batman's shadow was there, but he was hardly in every issue and those books are proof that being connected to him or near him does not necessarily work towards the detriment of a character. And beyond that you have Azrael: Agent of the Bat and Catwoman, more examples of Bat-books that did well enough enough for them to keep recreating them.

I disagree with BoP - he wasn't felt that much in the series.
As for Nightwing, it definitely hurt the character, if not the sales.
See again, the amount of 'Dick comes into his own' stories from across the years.
How many times does he have to do this?
He stopped being Robin to get away from that!


You don't like them all being connected to Batman, that's clear, but your insistence it's bad for them has no basis in what's actually been published for the last 15 years and continues to this day.

Neither is your proof that these are good things.
X-Men Forever or the new Spider-Clone series being published, and selling, doesn't mean that either of these things are good - it just means people will put money down for them.