Motown versus Stax

[Eric D.]

I really dig just about all of the motown songs that have been recorded over the years, - but when it comes to the goods-soul music. I'll take Stax Records hands down.

Detroit Soul (Motown)

Dominated by Berry Gordy's Motown Records empire, Detroit soul is strongly rhythmic and influenced by gospel music. The Motown sound often includes hand clapping, a powerful bass line, violins and bells. Motown Records' house band was The Funk Brothers.

Memphis soul (Stax / Hi Records)

A shimmering, sultry style of soul music produced in the 1960s and 1970s at Stax Records and Hi Records in Memphis, Tennessee. It featured melancholic and melodic horns, organ, bass, and drums, as heard in recordings by Hi's Al Green and Stax's Booker T. & the M.G.'s. The Hi Records house band (Hi Rhythm Section) and producer Willie Mitchell developed a surging soul style heard in the label's 1970s hit recordings.

[Matthew E]

I'm with you. I wouldn't want to have to choose between the two, but if I did, I'd take Stax.

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

stax....motown was just a 70's version of bad boy records, and gordy was just a older version of puff daddy.

[Eric D.]

stax....motown was just a 70's version of bad boy records, and gordy was just a older version of puff daddy.

motown was definitely not "just a 70's version of bad boy records". i also went with stax, - but to write motown off would be to go without considering the great works of the Supremes, Smokey Robinson, The Temptations, Jackie Wilson, Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye(who made one of the all time great albums in What's Going On) not to forget the smooth production of Quincy Jones. besides, they were at their height in the 60's

this is more about preference. - there's no doubt in my mind that Motown had more talent.

[Filthy Mutie]

stax....motown was just a 70's version of bad boy records, and gordy was just a older version of puff daddy.

I'm guessing this is a joke.

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

I'm guessing this is a joke.i'm dead serious actually lol...i have always felt this way.

[John Asperger]

...If I HAD to choose , maybe it'd be Motown...But , if Motown went under:frown: :mad: , could I keep the " Northern Soul/Chicago Sound " , etc. , sides from other labels :smile: ???!!??!!?:biggrin:

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

motown was definitely not "just a 70's version of bad boy records". i also went with stax, - but to write motown off would be to go without considering the great works of the Supremes, Smokey Robinson, The Temptations, Jackie Wilson, Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye(who made one of the all time great albums in What's Going On) not to forget the smooth production of Quincy Jones. besides, they were at their height in the 60's

this is more about preference. - there's no doubt in my mind that Motown had more talent.and on that note bad boy records had some solid releases too...just sayin..
ready to die is one of the best rap records ever...back when p-diddy was actually the shit!!

[Matthew E]

motown was definitely not "just a 70's version of bad boy records". i also went with stax, - but to write motown off would be to go without considering the great works of the Supremes, Smokey Robinson, The Temptations, Jackie Wilson, Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye(who made one of the all time great albums in What's Going On) not to forget the smooth production of Quincy Jones. besides, they were at their height in the 60's

this is more about preference. - there's no doubt in my mind that Motown had more talent.

Yeah, I don't get where the '70s thing comes from. I mean, Motown did do worthwhile stuff in the '70s and '80s, but basically with Motown you have to look at the '60s first.

I'd add the Four Tops to your list, and Martha and the Vandellas, and subtract Jackie Wilson, who never recorded for Motown (although he did work with Berry Gordy before there was a Motown).

[Filthy Mutie]

i'm dead serious actually lol...i have always felt this way.

This blows my mind.

Yeah, I don't get where the '70s thing comes from. I mean, Motown did do worthwhile stuff in the '70s and '80s, but basically with Motown you have to look at the '60s first.

I'd add the Four Tops to your list, and Martha and the Vandellas, and subtract Jackie Wilson, who never recorded for Motown (although he did work with Berry Gordy before there was a Motown).

Swap Jackie Wilson out for the Jackson 5. And yeah, 110 Billboard #1s between 1961 and 1971. Wow.

[The Black Guardian]

It would suck to not have Otis Redding, Wilson Pickett, Al Green, Isaac Hayes, and Rufus Thomas... but I'd honestly have to go with Motown.

[Slam_Bradley]

I much prefer Stax to Motown. Though to be fair, I'd probably take Atlantic's R&B output over either.

[Adam C]

Stax or Motown? Well...that's kind of like saying "The Beatles" or "The Stones". One focuses on a performance and pure energy and the other focuses on composition, arrangement, and making full use of the studio to create a great pop record.

But in terms of personal preference, I'll go with Stax. Just because I like my soul music loud and greasy.

stax....motown was just a 70's version of bad boy records, and gordy was just a older version of puff daddy.

How so? I'm not very familiar with Puff Daddy or Bad Boy Records output, though the comparison has me curious.

It would suck to not have Otis Redding, Wilson Pickett, Al Green, Isaac Hayes, and Rufus Thomas... but I'd honestly have to go with Motown.

Al Green?

[Matthew E]

Al Green?

The OP piled Hi in with Stax. I wouldn't have, but whatever; there's an argument to be made that Hi inherited some Stax mojo.

[Jonathan Bogart]

How so? I'm not very familiar with Puff Daddy or Bad Boy Records output, though the comparison has me curious.
I can see the comparisons when you're looking at someone like Mary J. Blige as a sort of Diana Ross figure. Reading up on Motown, there's a barely-submerged thematic undercurrent of Gordy as pimp and the various acts as so many tricks to be turned that Puffy's explicit drawing of the comparison has its own refreshing honesty.

I wouldn't say that Puffy had a tenth of Gordy's pop sense, though. Especially after Biggy's death, he just got tacky.

[Street Worm]

Stax-

but I sure do love that old Motown~

[Eric D.]

The OP piled Hi in with Stax. I wouldn't have, but whatever; there's an argument to be made that Hi inherited some Stax mojo.

I was intending for it be Detroit (Motown) and Memphis (Stax / Hi Records)

[Mic Murphy]

It would suck to not have Otis Redding, Wilson Pickett, Al Green, Isaac Hayes, and Rufus Thomas... but I'd honestly have to go with Motown.

motown was definitely not "just a 70's version of bad boy records". i also went with stax, - but to write motown off would be to go without considering ... the smooth production of Quincy Jones.

Al Green wasn't a Stax recording act, just like Quincy Jones was not a Motown act.

stax....motown was just a 70's version of bad boy records, and gordy was just a older version of puff daddy.

I believe you meant to say Motown was a '60s version of Bad Boy Records. If that is the case, I would agree. Basically taking a raw, street sound, slicking it up with a formulaic, assembly line approach to producing records, finding young, attractive talent, and exploiting it all by packaging it for "crossover" appeal and consumption by the masses.

And by the early '70s it became apparent Berry Gordy was losing his vision as black popular music was moving away from that "supper club" appeal. Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder literally had to fight Gordy to take their '70s music in a new direction, one that defined their careers, IMO. Gordy was consumed trying to make Diana Ross the black Barbra Streisand.

The Jackson 5 left because of a lack of creative control, among other things. Gladys Knight & The Pips also left Motown's camp for greener pastures. The Isley Brothers left to form its own label and then brought in the younger generation to form the legendary 3+3 era. It was an aberration that Gordy let Norman Whitfield take The Temptations in the direction he did in the late '60s through early '70s. If the label already did not have him signed as part of a white rock band years before, it would have missed out on Rick James.

When I see Motown retrospective stuff on TV (especially when it is controlled by the company), the focus seems to be mostly on the '60s supper club era. At times, I almost forget this is the same company that released albums like "What's Going On," "Innervisions," "Let's Get It On," "Songs in the Key of Life," "A Quiet Storm," "Street Songs," The Temptations' psychedelic/cinematic soul era music, etc.

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

I believe you meant to say Motown was a '60s version of Bad Boy Records. If that is the case, I would agree. Basically taking a raw, street sound, slicking it up with a formulaic, assembly line approach to producing records, finding young, attractive talent, and exploiting it all by packaging it for "crossover" appeal and consumption by the masses.

And in the early '70s it became apparent Berry Gordy was losing his vision as black popular music was moving away from that "supper club" appeal. Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder literally had to fight Gordy to take their '70s music in a new direction, one that defined their careers, IMO. Gordy was consumed trying to make Diana Ross the black Barbra Streisand.

The Jackson 5 left because of a lack of creative control, among other things. Gladys Knight & The Pips also left Motown's camp for greener pastures. The Isley Brothers left to form its own label and then brought in their younger siblings to form the legendary 3+3 era. It was an aberration that Gordy let Norman Whitfield take The Temptations in the direction he did in the late '60s through early '70s. If the label already did not have him signed as part of a white rock band years before, it would have missed out on Rick James..

you said it much better than i did lol, but yeah more or less...

I almost forget this is the same company that released albums like "What's Going On," "Innervisions," "Let's Get It On," "Songs in the Key of Life," "A Quiet Storm," The Temptations' psychedelic/cinematic soul era music, etc.
absolutely!!!

[Eric D.]

Al Green wasn't a Stax recording act, just like Quincy Jones was not a Motown act.


no Al Green wasn't signed to Stax, -, but Hi Records - both from Memphis, was clear in the original post....but ---should have headed the title Detroit Soul vs. Memphis Soul.

i don't know what i was thinking , i knew better than that. - was likely relating him with producing most of producing a good deal of Michael Jackson's late seventies to 80's albums., - but of course that was on Epic - -

[Mic Murphy]

no Al Green wasn't signed to Stax, -, but Hi Records - both from Memphis, was clear in the original post....but ---should have headed the title Detroit Soul vs. Memphis Soul.

It would have been misleading, because you really are talking Stax artists vs. Motown artists. Besides, Detroit would have picked up this hometown favorite that would have negated Al Green:

http://www.carlinmusic.com/media/roster/aretha_franklin.jpg

Based on star power, the Motown lineup already is powerful. Adding Aretha Franklin next to Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder, The Temptations, The Supremes, et al would have been overwhelming.

[Matthew E]

And by the early '70s it became apparent Berry Gordy was losing his vision as black popular music was moving away from that "supper club" appeal. [...]
When I see Motown retrospective stuff on TV (especially when it is controlled by the company), the focus seems to be mostly on the '60s supper club era.

Are you seriously calling '60s Motown music "supper club" music?

It was The Sound of Young America!

It must have been a pretty happening supper club where you could hear "Dancing in the Streets" or "Shotgun".

[Mic Murphy]

Are you seriously calling '60s Motown music "supper club" music?

It was The Sound of Young America!

It must have been a pretty happening supper club where you could hear "Dancing in the Streets" or "Shotgun".

Motown's 60s music was more or less about crossing over to appeal to a mainstream audience. Acts like The Supremes, The Temptations and The four Tops definitely played in those type of venues during their runs.

I recall my mother and her siblings who said they rarely heard Motown music in black clubs and venues in the South, because it was definitely pop-oriented stuff. They preferred the Stax sound because of its grittiness and more blues-oriented tones.

[Matthew E]

Motown's 60s music was more or less about crossing over to appeal to a mainstream audience. Acts like The Supremes, The Temptations and The four Tops definitely played in those type of venues during their runs.

I imagine they did. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the Stax acts did too. A gig's a gig, after all.

I recall my mother and her siblings who said they rarely heard Motown music in black clubs and venues in the South, because it was definitely pop-oriented stuff. They preferred the Stax sound because of its grittiness and more blues-oriented tones.

Fair enough. I still think that the term "supper club" comes across as overly reductionist and dismissive of the '60s Motown stuff, like only square grownups liked the music.

[Mic Murphy]

The Motown acts in the '60s were largely geared toward appealing to a mass (read: white as well as black) audience. They basically were the dolled-up acts with the glamorous outfits and made by-the-numbers pop songs. Hence, the term "supper club."

Not only that, as I said earlier that is the image Motown still plays out to this day -- its '60s model of songs by The Temptations, The Supremes, The Four Tops, The Miracles, etc. Watch any of its commemorative shows and Motown largely plays to that era. I rarely see a Motown-era program or infomercial that refers to any of the artists or their works past the '60s (early '70s for The Jackson 5).

It's not like I'm dismissive of Motown's '60s music, but it seems like that Motown itself only wants to promote its '60s music. It has pressed that image so much that people only tend to think of the company for its '60s music.

[Mic Murphy]

Yeah, I don't get where the '70s thing comes from. I mean, Motown did do worthwhile stuff in the '70s and '80s, but basically with Motown you have to look at the '60s first.

This is what I'm talking about. It's not like Motown went away in the '70s and '80s. Hell, it was relevant in the '90s with Boyz II Men's incredible success. IMO, Motown's '70s music was superior to the stuff that came out in the '60s -- which makes how Motown doggedly promotes its '60s stuff almost solely so head-scratching.

Motown promotes its '60s era so much that most people don't realize The Four Tops left the label in 1972; people not familiar with the group's history would never think that because of the way Motown promotes the act. Yeah, I definitely identify Martha & The Vandellas' "Dancing in the Street" with Motown, but it's easy to forget that Rick James (a much more successful act) was with Motown.

The Temptations had a slew of hit songs, but the label focuses so much on '60s songs like "My Girl." It's like the label only promotes the David Ruffin-era lineup and overlooks the psychedelic soul era and longer success with Dennis Edwards as a lead singer. And there is no way I would take the '60s Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder over the '70s versions.

[Matthew E]

I think a lot of it is volume. If you just go by number of hits, they had more success in the '60s than any other era.

Plus their sound had a unity in the '60s that they didn't have later; Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder and everybody sounded like themselves in the '70s and not like a variation on the Motown sound. I guess you could say that Motown was a stronger, or at least more recognizable, brand in the '60s.

most people don't realize The Four Tops left the label in 1972

Ain't No Woman Like the One I Got! (Dunhill.) I prefer the late Temptations to the early Temptations myself. Marvin Gaye, though... hard to choose. I might like the in-between Marvin Gaye best, with "...Grapevine" and "Too Busy Thinking About My Baby". And of course with Stevie Wonder it's not even a debate.

[Mic Murphy]

Plus their sound had a unity in the '60s that they didn't have later; Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder and everybody sounded like themselves in the '70s and not like a variation on the Motown sound. I guess you could say that Motown was a stronger, or at least more recognizable, brand in the '60s.

Basically taking a raw, street sound, slicking it up with a formulaic, assembly line approach to producing records, finding young, attractive talent, and exploiting it all by packaging it for "crossover" appeal and consumption by the masses.

Hence, Berry Gordy's Motown sound was the '60s version of Puff Daddy.

If I recall Motown actually had just as many hits songs in the '70s. Certainly, the music was superior in quality.

Marvin Gaye's "What's Going On" is considered by many as the most influential soul music album made, and "Let's Get It On" is not that far behind. I would say "I Want You" is superior to the vast majority of his '60s music, if not for the fact that Gaye was no longer coming off like a Sam Cooke sendoff and actually evolved. Even the "Trouble Man" soundtrack is very good.

Once Stevie Wonder started controlling his own music like Gaye did, his career went to another level. "Talking Book," "Innvervisions," "Songs in the Key of Life" and "Fulfillingness' First Finale" are nothing short of brilliant.

The Jackson 5 were prominent in the early '70s and The Commodores came on in the mid '70s until the early '80s. The Temptations were great through the mid-70s. Diana Ross and Smokey Robinson still were hitmakers in the '70s (Smokey's "A Quiet Storm" is another '70s soul music standout). Rick James came out in the late '70s and was a dominant artist until the mid-'80s.

The reality is in the '70s Gordy didn't control the artists any more with his domineering manner. Ironically, while Motown flourished in this period it's been more than noted that Gordy privately resented given up his racketeer-like control. If it was up to Gordy, "What's Going On" would not have been released and he nearly lost Wonder because of his domineering ways. He ended up losing The Jackson 5 and Gladys Knight & The Pips because of it, and he missed out The Isley Brothers. He practically missed out on the funk era until James came on board.

That's why Motown historically only promoted the '60s until Gordy sold it and it continues even today -- some people don't even associate the above works with the label. The '60s is when Gordy controlled the artists in every fashion.