X-men: Forever #10 (aka 'X-Men: Corrections') w/SPOILERS

[Flâneur]

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/6496/snapshot20091028172027.tif

It's a sad day for Chris Claremont, isn't it? To have fallen into such a situation and, after hearing his passive aggression (http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showpost.php?p=1508885&postcount=664) last week it's quite obvious to see how he feels about this.

All of this, however, has given me a brilliant new perspective on what X-men: Forever well and truly is. It's not simply a continuation of Chris Claremont's prior work as the absence of the Dark Wolverine Saga demonstrates but it is not the simple sniping one could construe from a work which inherently dismisses all other writer's stories as not real ('real' in the sense of a canon wanker on the net, at least). No, Claremont has, in the publication of X-men: Corrections, perfected trolling of the 'fans' to a fine art. Let us have a brief recap of what's happened so far:

Claremont trolls Wolverine fans by killing Wolverine in the very first issue.
Claremont trolls Psylocke fans by deporting her azn arse to Britain off panel.
Claremont trolls Scott/Jean shippers by having Jean in an open affair with Wolverine while married to Scott. Plot still ongoing.
After the extended battle with Sabretooth in issue 2, and the battle with Storm in issue 3, Claremont decides to troll Storm/Black Panther shippers by turning Storm into a lying duplicitous bitch who faked all feelings. The Storm/BP romance now never happened.
Claremont trolls Sage fans by having Kitty, the Jew, take on the visage and part of Afghani Sage but with extra claw.
Claremont trolls Fraction's endorsement of Namor, and his fans, by declaring that there were no old mutants, as all mutants were dying, burnt out by their powers. He also ends up trolling himself in the meanwhile.
Claremont trolls good sense by (failing in the effort of) building up Sentinels designed by a neo-Nazi who sounds like a David Bowie lyric pronounced with a broken jaw.

So, now that we're all caught up, let's turn to the latest issue, X-men:Forever #10:

Claremont ego strokes New Mutants fans with a brief appearance of these alumni (in-house advertising!) as they arrive to Wolverine's funeral (TROLL) along with the Avengers and the Fantastic Four.
Claremont trolls Forge fans (are there any?! Maybe he made a misstep) by having Forge experience a brief Lolita/pedophile moment regarding dwarf Ororo.
Claremont trolls Rachel Summers fans by having her not exist when Excalisuck comes to the funeral. Incidentally, Betsy appears with Excalisuck and shares a light headbutt with Kitty.
Claremont trolls Hulk fans by turning Bruce Banner into a delivery boy who thinks about how Hulk wasn't capable of helping Wolverine.
Claremont trolls all fans with any taste by referencing True Friends as the Queen sends a torque to the X-men for Wolverine's funeral.
Claremont then goes for the absolute double whammy, trolling both Scott/Jean shippers and Rachel Summers fans with ... aw, heck, I'll just post the page:
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/2151/snapshot20091028190532.tif

So yeah, Scott either has a second family which he didn't tell Jean about or faked the whole baby Nathan into the future thing and amidst all this family dramaz, Rachel still doesn't appear. HARSH.


You know, it really is a pity about the story, I mean, the dialogue is hokey and this just doesn't require a certain 'taste', it genuinely is poorly written but ... if you're an avid fan then you can pull the wool over your eyes and pretend if it was well plotted but it isn't. It simply plays to a Claremont following who want to read their own fan fiction validated by Claremont and it's an immense pity to see such great art wasted on that, and makes no mistake, the art is really good compared to previous issues but it's still such a waste.

Patient Diagnosis:

D - recommended only for explicit Claremont fans.

[Jake V]

Sigh.

Cable existed prior to Claremont's departure in X-Men #3

Claremont plotted the issue of X-Factor where Cyclops sends baby Nate to the future.

This isn't "Claremont picking up where he left off in 1991" its Claremont giving the finger to everyone who ever enjoyed an X-Men comic after he left.

[Flâneur]

Sigh.

Cable existed prior to Claremont's departure in X-Men #3

Claremont plotted the issue of X-Factor where Cyclops sends baby Nate to the future.

This isn't "Claremont picking up where he left off in 1991" its Claremont giving the finger to everyone who ever enjoyed an X-Men comic after he left.
I think what we're seeing is that he's actually using this as the opportunity to invent continuity at will, rather than write from a certain point in time. I am actually wondering if things like the Byrne-retcon and even Jean's original death, which was not planned by him, are still in play or if they've been wiped in this new ultimate cc-verse.

[ZNOP]

Wed May 20, 2009 — by Glenn Hauman
Interview: Chris Claremont on 'X-Men Forever', part 1

ComicMix: X-Men Forever Alpha is a reprint of the first three issues plus an eight page bridge to the new series, correct? What do we need to know going in?

Chris Claremont: Essentially nothing. Those were the issues going in, to establish all the fundamental parameters: the X-Men are a team of heroes that are based at Xavier school for gifted youngsters at Salem center, outside of New York City.

CM: So you’re starting up right from where you left the book in 1991.

CC: Yes.

CM: Is this House Of C, then, as compared to House of M?

CC: No, it’s the Marvel Universe, there’s no real change to it, other than the fact that in a very practical sense that the subsequent sixteen, seventeen years of material following my departure doesn’t exist.

CM: So this is a new forked off continuity.

CC: Yes. We’re essentially picking up where I left off and the only acknowledgment we are making to the passage of time is that if a label needs to be placed on #1, #2, and #3, they occurred in the opening months, weeks, whatever of 2009.

CM: Then everything that happens since in mainline Marvel continuity has not happened and is not going to happen?

CC: Everything that relates to the X-Men specifically has not happened. The origins of characters that were established after I left are not necessarily the origins that we will encounter here. For example, the reality in this book is that Sabretooth and Wolverine are father and son. Betsy Braddock has not been transferred into a cloned dead Asian body.

CM: Do you find it strange that people are looking at this series and referring back to your original run as the time when X-Men continuity wasn’t convoluted?

CC: It’s intriguing, it’s challenging. Hopefully it’ll be fun.

CM: After all, when you left you had so many different balls in the air, and now you compare it to current X-Men continuity and we look at your day as, “Oh, gosh, it was all so simple then, there were only two alternate futures we had to worry about.”

CC: And also the foundation of the work was derived from me and Louise Simonson and Larry Hama doing Wolverine. That was it. What we’ve had since then is a score of books and far more writers contributing material, incorporating their stories into the Canon, rejected by the Canon, revised - - you know, the passage of time since then has not been perhaps as smooth as it had been up to then. So we’re kind of going back to a simpler time in the firmament, but on the other hand, once for their we can go tearing off into all sorts of fascinating possibilities… none of which necessarily incorporates the future history as we know it. A lot of the things that are happening in X-Men Forever have to do with the X-Men’s fundamental perception of the world around them, which is about to change on a significant level. That can’t help but have repercussions with the rest of the marble universe; the only thing we have to bear in mind is that were going to see those repercussions from a single focus perspective, that of the X-Men - - or that of the eight or nine characters on whom this series is focused. Were not going to be cutting back and forth to, “this is the Avengers’ view of things”, “this is the Fantastic Four’s view of things”, “this is Spidey’s view of things”. We only see them through the X-Men’s eyes.

CM: When last you left the X-Men, we had the blue team and the gold team and their roster of about a dozen mutants.

CC: And a very crowded school.

CM: Which leads some to believe that you’ll be clearing off some cast members.

CC: No, the way it works here is that the blue and gold teams were a proposal on Charlie’s desk at the time of X-Men #1 through #3. The initial expectation was that post #4 they would be incorporated and that was how the future progresses. However, things are going to happen in four and five and six and seven - - well, I say four and five and six and seven. Things are going to happen in the first arc of Forever that knock those plans into a cocked hat. The other thing to know is that the first five issues take place in a single night. And that night is going to change the X-Men’s world completely. And with each change their they will get all other farther and farther away from the history as it evolved because this is a totally different future, totally different mindset, and a totally different world. My vision is not the vision of the fifteen guys who followed me.

CM: Why did you decide to fork continuity rather than take over the X-Men the way they are now?

CC: I had a vision of where I wanted the book to go. Jim [Lee] and Bob [Harras] and I disagreed vehemently. The vision never came to pass. In going back and starting over again, picking up where I left off, I took the vision that I had and incorporated the world as it evolved since then, and why things are the way they are and what it means. And it’s proved, to me anyway, to be a surprisingly fascinating and vital direction for the characters and the series that is very true to the essence of the extent, but casts the whole concept into a totally different light and differentiates it from what exists in Uncanny and the rest of the line. It’s not the idea that I’m copying their stuff, or showing how I can tell their stories better. This is my vision, these are my stories. And the ideas, I think, our new ideas people haven’t thought of this before. So I thought, far better to go with something new for better or worse and surprise the audience and hopefully intrigue them, especially in a reality when the happy ending is not guaranteed.

CM: Because you don’t have to worry about continuing characters or keeping things the same all around for licensing reasons.

CC: Right. Not my problem. Death is not a marketing inhibition.

[Flâneur]

And? I'm quite sure we're all aware CC has marketed this as a direct continuation.

[JohnSD]

Patient Diagnosis:
D - recommended only for explicit Claremont fans.

Thanks for another helpful review Flâneur - it's nice to read some critique instead the just detailed spoilers. Like a moth drawn to flame I'm still interested in this book, despite being increasingly turned off it since the first arc. I genuinely don't mind Claremont's writing style (I'm still working my way through the 80s and enjoying it), but I've been put off by the sheer dishonesty and conceit of this title - it is not what it was advertised as, and it is not what Claremont described it as in the interview quoted above, which is just frustrating. The first arc showed potential, but since then it has gone from being "dumb but fun" to just straight out dumb...

If it had the good grace to be honest about its status as a complete re-imagining of the X-Men concept (along the lines of the animated series) then it might actually be quite good. At times it does work well as an adventure comic. But its biggest weakness is that it proudly claims to be a continuation of 616 history, which is just blatantly is not, and as long as that claim is there it distracts hugely from any strengths in the book....

[KiplingKat]

Rachel is from the Day of Future past universe and jumped into the 616. She was kidnapped by the Body Shoppe shortly before the Mutant Masscare. She did not appear again until the first issue of Excalibur.

EDIT: Oh wait, I see. He did show Exalibur (which started in 1988) but he did not show Rachel. That is odd.

[timbox]

So there is no reason for her to be there.

I think we can all agree that Rachel should not be there.

[KiplingKat]

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/6496/snapshot20091028172027.tif

It's a sad day for Chris Claremont, isn't it? To have fallen into such a situation and, after hearing his passive aggression (http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showpost.php?p=1508885&postcount=664) last week it's quite obvious to see how he feels about this.

All of this, however, has given me a brilliant new perspective on what X-men: Corrections well and truly is. It's not simply a continuation of Chris Claremont's prior work as the absence of the Dark Wolverine Saga demonstrates but it is not the simple sniping one could construe from a work which inherently dismisses all other writer's stories as not real ('real' in the sense of a canon wanker on the net, at least). No, Claremont has, in the publication of X-men: Corrections, perfected trolling of the 'fans' to a fine art. Let us have a brief recap of what's happened so far:

Claremont trolls Wolverine fans by killing Wolverine in the very first issue.
Claremont trolls Psylocke fans by deporting her azn arse to Britain off panel.
Claremont trolls Scott/Jean shippers by having Jean in an open affair with Wolverine while married to Scott. Plot still ongoing.
After the extended battle with Sabretooth in issue 2, and the battle with Storm in issue 3, Claremont decides to troll Storm/Black Panther shippers by turning Storm into a lying duplicitous bitch who faked all feelings. The Storm/BP romance now never happened.
Claremont trolls Sage fans by having Kitty, the Jew, take on the visage and part of Afghani Sage but with extra claw.
Claremont trolls Fraction's endorsement of Namor, and his fans, by declaring that there were no old mutants, as all mutants were dying, burnt out by their powers. He also ends up trolling himself in the meanwhile.
Claremont trolls good sense by (failing in the effort of) building up Sentinels designed by a neo-Nazi who sounds like a David Bowie lyric pronounced with a broken jaw.

So, now that we're all caught up, let's turn to the latest issue, X-men:Corrections #10:

Claremont ego strokes New Mutants fans with a brief appearance of these alumni (in-house advertising!) as they arrive to Wolverine's funeral (TROLL) along with the Avengers and the Fantastic Four.
Claremont trolls Forge fans (are there any?! Maybe he made a misstep) by having Forge experience a brief Lolita/pedophile moment regarding dwarf Ororo.
Claremont trolls Rachel Summers fans by having her not exist when Excalisuck comes to the funeral. Incidentally, Betsy appears with Excalisuck and shares a light headbutt with Kitty.
Claremont trolls Hulk fans by turning Bruce Banner into a delivery boy who thinks about how Hulk wasn't capable of helping Wolverine.
Claremont trolls all fans with any taste by referencing True Friends as the Queen sends a torque to the X-men for Wolverine's funeral.
Claremont then goes for the absolute double whammy, trolling both Scott/Jean shippers and Rachel Summers fans with ... aw, heck, I'll just post the page:
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/2151/snapshot20091028190532.tif

So yeah, Scott either has a second family which he didn't tell Jean about or faked the whole baby Nathan into the future thing and amidst all this family dramaz, Rachel still doesn't appear. HARSH.


You know, it really is a pity about the story, I mean, the dialogue is hokey and this just doesn't require a certain 'taste', it genuinely is poorly written but ... if you're an avid fan then you can pull the wool over your eyes and pretend if it was well plotted but it isn't. It simply plays to a Claremont following who want to read their own fan fiction validated by Claremont and it's an immense pity to see such great art wasted on that, and makes no mistake, the art is really good compared to previous issues but it's still such a waste.

Patient Diagnosis:

D - recommended only for explicit Claremont fans.

The Storm-BP romance was something that was retconned into continuity the 2000's, why should it exist in Claremont's Universe?

An X-tile without Wolverine? Yay!

Rachel is from the Day of Future past universe and jumped into the 616. She was kidnapped by the Body Shoppe shortly before the Mutant Masscare. She did not appear again until the first issue of Excalibur.

EDIT: Oh wait, I see. He did show Exalibur (which started in 1988) but he did not show Rachel. That is odd.

[timbox]

The Storm-BP romance was something that was retconned into continuity the 2000's, why should it exist in Claremont's Universe?


CC is including the Storm/Black Panther relationship in this, but he shows us that Storm is faking it.

[KiplingKat]

CC is including the Storm/Black Panther relationship in this, but he shows us that Storm is faking it.

Ah...so what's the problem? It's a different continuity, things will be different.

My only problem with XMF so far is Claremont's pace. He's moving so damn fast he has lost those little dramatic beats that made his writing so great in the first place. And I can't say I am impressed with the "Kitty becoming the hew Logan" claw thing. Otherwise, it's fine to me.

Like I said, an X-Title without Wolverine, not to mention Claremont has promised that "dead means dead". I'm totally cool with that.

[Flâneur]

The Storm-BP romance was something that was retconned into continuity the 2000's, why should it exist in Claremont's Universe?
The Storm/BP following has informed me that moments of their love existed throughout Claremont's entire run. I'm just delivering the bad news since Storm is a fake now.
Rachel is from the Day of Future past universe and jumped into the 616. She was kidnapped by the Body Shoppe shortly before the Mutant Masscare. She did not appear again until the first issue of Excalibur.

EDIT: Oh wait, I see. He did show Exalibur (which started in 1988) but he did not show Rachel. That is odd.
I know, right?

[timbox]

Ah...so what's the problem? It's a different continuity, things will be different.


There's no problem. I think it's hilarious.

I believe it is an accurate representation of their relationship in the 616 as well.

[KiplingKat]

The Storm/BP following has informed me that moments of their love existed throughout Claremont's entire run. I'm just delivering the bad news since Storm is a fake now.

Uh..having read all of Claremont's initial run on the X-Men, that would be a big fat, "No." BP did not even appear in Uncanny during CC's tenure that I remember (and I am thinking really hard about this...no, I don't remember him appearing in Uncanny at all). I think the BP appeared on one Marvel Team-Up issue with the X-Men in the early 1980's and I don't remember any grand romance.

[Azure]

The Winter Guard are imminent.

[Flâneur]

Uh..having read all of Claremont's initial run on the X-Men, that would be a big fat, "No." BP did not even appear in Uncanny during CC's tenure that I remember (and I am thinking really hard about this...no, I don't remember him appearing in Uncanny at all). I think the BP appeared on one Marvel Team-Up issue with the X-Men in the early 1980's and I don't remember any grand romance.
I am glad you agree with me on this, Kipling. Will you have my back when there is a raid?

[Nicoclaws]

Uh..having read all of Claremont's initial run on the X-Men, that would be a big fat, "No." BP did not even appear in Uncanny during CC's tenure that I remember (and I am thinking really hard about this...no, I don't remember him appearing in Uncanny at all). I think the BP appeared on one Marvel Team-Up issue with the X-Men in the early 1980's and I don't remember any grand romance.

She did mention once or twice "one boy she met in Africa", when kitty asked her about her relationships.

[Home made ectoplasm]

So is Psylocke a member of Excalibur now, since Rachel doesn't exist in this reality?

[darknessatnoon]

I'm really pissed off with this review.

It neglected to mention that CC made Psylocke white. She had round-eyes this issue. She is no longer an AZN, and he did it to her off panel.

[Home made ectoplasm]

I'm really pissed off with this review.

It neglected to mention that CC made Psylocke white. She had round-eyes this issue. She is no longer an AZN, and he did it to her off panel.

really? Maybe just an artist error?

[darknessatnoon]

So is Psylocke a member of Excalibur now, since Rachel doesn't exist in this reality?

Well, the ridiculous thing is that the issue references Kitty's trip to the past in X-Men: True Friends with Rachel, which could have only have occurred using Rachel's powers, so she has to exist in some capacity in this reality. I'm sure Jean will be killed soon, and we'll finally get to see Rachel reclaim her Sauroid Destiny.

really? Maybe just an artist error?

No, he just corrected her off panel, just as he corrected Warren's blueness.

[Jack Flash]

My favorite was the annual where CC trolled Sage and made Psylocke a robot. Was that pre or post X-Men Corrections? Is there a possibility of him making her a human computer in this continuity!?!

[darknessatnoon]

I loved how Angel, Iceman and Cyclops all retired this issue for no particular reason.

[Home made ectoplasm]

Well, the ridiculous thing is that the issue references Kitty's trip to the past in X-Men: True Friends with Rachel, which could have only have occurred using Rachel's powers, so she has to exist in some capacity in this reality. I'm sure Jean will be killed soon, and we'll finally get to see Rachel reclaim her Sauroid Destiny.

Well, don't speak too soon. If it happened off-panel and Psylocke is in Excalibur, maybe she replaced Rachel in this timestream. Betty is notorious for power swaps, maybe in this universe she has Ray's time travel powers.

This sounds like it would be a good set up for an Excalibur forever series.

No, he just corrected her off panel, just as he corrected Warren's blueness.

I have no problem with that.

[Home made ectoplasm]

I loved how Angel, Iceman and Cyclops all retired this issue for no particular reason.

OK, what?

But if you know that your powers are killing you when you use them, and have already given a good percentage of your life to being a super hero, what is the incentive to continue?

[Jack Flash]

Well, don't speak too soon. If it happened off-panel and Psylocke is in Excalibur, maybe she replaced Rachel in this timestream. Betty is notorious for power swaps, maybe in this universe she has Ray's time travel powers.

This sounds like it would be a good set up for an Excalibur forever series.



I have no problem with that.

Oh that would be exciting! Was Megan at the funeral? I'd love to see if CC undid her pointy ears! I hate them! Britain is not shown nearly enough in Marvel Comics. I know that for a fact.

[Psychic Illusion]

Would someone be so kind and scan Betsy's appearances in forever please. Thank you much.

[timbox]

In this universe, I wonder if someone using the focused totality of their power would cause them to die instantly.

[Jack Flash]

In this universe, I wonder if someone using the focused totality of their power would cause them to die instantly.

Does anyone know where Colossus is in this universe? Had he become an acolyte yet? Is Rusty an acolyte yet?

[darknessatnoon]

OK, what?

But if you know that your powers are killing you when you use them, and have already given a good percentage of your life to being a super hero, what is the incentive to continue?

Are you calling 1/2 of the 06 "cowards?" Do you think Jean and Tessa will hesitate to use their powers? Beast can't help use his powers. And the rest of the team is just going to walk off after 70 issues of X-Factor?

[Stephane Garrelie]

Thanks for another helpful review Flâneur - it's nice to read some critique instead the just detailed spoilers.
Well, you're obviously the sort of public for who this sort of review is done. I am not sure i would call it critique, but at least this time the job is done and it gives you an idea of what is in the book. I of course disagree with Flaneur's opinion and i loved the issue. The art was fantastic, and this last page pleased me a lot. I am very happy to see Nathan as a 6 or 7 years old and Scott as a dad.
I think that it is an error to assume that the other X-Men don't know about this situation. Claremont keep it a surprise to the readers, but the other X-Men probably know. They just didn't speak of it on-panel.



Like a moth drawn to flame I'm still interested in this book, despite being increasingly turned off it since the first arc. I genuinely don't mind Claremont's writing style (I'm still working my way through the 80s and enjoying it), but I've been put off by the sheer dishonesty and conceit of this title - it is not what it was advertised as, and it is not what Claremont described it as in the interview quoted above, which is just frustrating. The first arc showed potential, but since then it has gone from being "dumb but fun" to just straight out dumb...

If it had the good grace to be honest about its status as a complete re-imagining of the X-Men concept (along the lines of the animated series) then it might actually be quite good. At times it does work well as an adventure comic. But its biggest weakness is that it proudly claims to be a continuation of 616 history, which is just blatantly is not, and as long as that claim is there it distracts hugely from any strengths in the book....
I won't follow you in the use of the term "dishonest", even if for the rest you are not out of necessity wrong, but changes of this sort is something Claremont regularly did in his first run, see for an exemple the Phoenix/Phoenix force thing. Regularly he gave to the serie some fresh new basis, that sometime were in contradiction with stuff he wrote before, but he still made it work.
X-Men Forever is a continuation of his original run, but not a stict one, and it include a few more retcons than usualy.

Also the "X-Correction" stuff as a title of a thread is something with which maybe it should be good to be careful. Here the post make it clear that it designs the book itself, but on other occasions it was easy to mistake it as an attack against the writer or the people who like the book (and so are of another opinion than the one of the reviewer.)

[timbox]

X-Corrections is more of a Mission Statement. CC is correcting the errors that he and his followers had previously made in the 616 books.

[Home made ectoplasm]

Well, you're obviously the sort of public for who this sort of review is done.

lol, JohnSD, Stephane is calling you out. It is easy to mistake this as an attack against people who maybe do not like the book

Also the "X-Correction" stuff as a title of a thread is something with which maybe it should be good to be careful. Here the post make it clear that it designs the book itself, but on other occasions it was easy to mistake it as an attack against the writer or the people who like the book (and so are of another opinion than the one of the reviewer.)

No, this is Claremont correcting mistakes made by other writers after him.

[jarrod]

I'd say the promotion and setup for Forever has been "dishonest". Then again, I'd say that was even more true for something like Whedon's Astonishing X-Men, and that was generally given a free pass initially. Claremont does get held to a different standard often, but Forever's gone so far off the rails so fast, I can't really care anymore.

[Stephane Garrelie]

lol, JohnSD, Stephane is calling you out. It is easy to mistake this as an attack against people who maybe do not like the bookFace it, this is their time. Forever is an old school book that gives to fans like me something from Marvel they find readable, but all the rest of Marvel's production is not for people like me.:smile:



No, this is Claremont correcting mistakes made by other writers after him.

Yep, i get it know.
But not everybody pass 3/4 hours a day or more on this board. It is easy to get it wrong. :smile:

[Flâneur]

I'm really pissed off with this review.

It neglected to mention that CC made Psylocke white. She had round-eyes this issue. She is no longer an AZN, and he did it to her off panel.

Would someone be so kind and scan Betsy's appearances in forever please. Thank you much.

Ninja slut: Corrections:

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/2453/snapshot20091029002636.tif

[darknessatnoon]

Ninja slut: Corrections:

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/2453/snapshot20091029002636.tif

SEXY

Just relax, Kitty. Let me help.

[Psychic Illusion]

Ninja slut: Corrections:

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/2453/snapshot20091029002636.tif

Thank you.

[Home made ectoplasm]

Face it, this is their time. Forever is an old school book that gives to fans like me something from Marvel they find readable, but all the rest of Marvel's production is not for people like me.:smile:


From the page above, the art looks good this issue, and none of the things that have been mentioned in the review put me off. It still sounds enjoyable, but then again I am one of those "explicit Claremont fans"

[Flâneur]

I'd say the promotion and setup for Forever has been "dishonest". Then again, I'd say that was even more true for something like Whedon's Astonishing X-Men, and that was generally given a free pass initially. Claremont does get held to a different standard often, but Forever's gone so far off the rails so fast, I can't really care anymore.

Whedon got an initial pass out of good faith, Claremont's work on New Excalibur, Die by the Sword and New Exiles ensures there is no good faith.

Just relax, Kitty. Let me help.
Spoken like a true cherryblossom of the parlour.

[Home made ectoplasm]

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/2453/snapshot20091029002636.tif

I don't know if you can definitively say from that that Betty is no longer Asian. She quite often looks like that in 616

[jarrod]

Whedon got an initial pass out of good faith, Claremont's work on New Excalibur, Die by the Sword and New Exiles ensures there is no good faith.
At this point, there's bad faith on my part with it comes to CC. Stop posting Burtsy Forever scans though, you're making me want to pay money for this thing...

[Flâneur]

At this point, there's bad faith on my part with it comes to CC. Stop posting Burtsy Forever scans though, you're making me want to pay money for this thing...

He's telling her to gtfo the country again, j'rod. It's forever Correcting Burtsy, you really don't want to financially support that.

[timbox]

Ninja slut: Corrections:

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/2453/snapshot20091029002636.tif

That is disgusting no matter what race she is supposed to be.

[Stephane Garrelie]

My sort of reviews try to be factual. By principe i refuse to tell to people what they should think of the issue. I say if i liked it or not but that's all. Generally if i do the effort to write a review, that means i liked the book, otherwise i just ignore it.
If i am very interested by real critique about literature done by scholars and enjoy this kind of books, i am not a fan at all of the type of critique you can find in newspapers or on the internet and i almost always find it at best not very serious and at worst suspect.
Now, in the case of what Flaneur does in the oppening of this thread, there's obviously an intent to entertain his readers, and with this i have no problem. I don't like the overall trollish tone, but it is part of the game, and sometime to be funny you need to be dark. This review has for me a big advantage on the two previous i saw him do about this series, and that is that this time he gives you an idea of what is in the book. The job is done, i disagree with his review, but this time he actually reviewed the book.
I probably will post my own review later, but you don't need it to get an idea of what is in the book if you read the one Flaneur did here.
Just be aware that he is wrong and that the issue is good.... a great calm issue with excellent art and a well writen Cyclops.

[Home made ectoplasm]

That is disgusting no matter what race she is supposed to be.

I think Nightcrawler / Beast would be a good pairing. Writers never seem to want to show two blue characters together, they always seem to put them in mixed relationships. Kinda prejudiced against furries imho.

Don't know if the relationship should be called Nighteast or Becrawler or Kank or Hurt though.

[jarrod]

He's telling her to gtfo the country again, j'rod. It's forever Correcting Burtsy, you really don't want to financially support that.
I don't... but the BURTSY!


That is disgusting no matter what race she is supposed to be.
Is she still X-23's role model in 161?

[jarrod]

Don't know if the relationship should be called Nighteast or Becrawler or Kank or Hurt though.
Beastcrawler sounds hott.

[Psychic Illusion]

I wish they would sto coloring liza's hair black.

[Home made ectoplasm]

My sort of reviews try to be factual. By principe i refuse to tell to people what they should think of the issue. I say if i liked it or not but that's all. Generally if i do the effort to write a review, that means i liked the book, otherwise i just ignore it.

The site rules though state that reviews should not concentrate on summarising the book, but instead contain an element of personal opinion, to convey what you thought of the book.

Detailed spoilers followed by "I liked it" or "I disliked it" are not really what the moderators are looking for. Maybe on Comixfan, but not CBR

[timbox]

Is she still X-23's role model in 161?

X-23, Kitty, and Psylocke should have a girl's night out and get their races re-done. Too much time spent with Nightcrawler drains their precious mutant life-force.

[jarrod]

X-23, Kitty, and Psylocke should have a girl's night out and get their races re-done. Too much time spent with Nightcrawler drains their precious mutant life-force.
Betsy needs claw implants first.

Has CC revealed Kitty to be Carmen Pryde's and Logan's clone daughter yet?

[timbox]

Betsy needs claw implants first.


Does Betsy hang out with Spiral in this universe?

[Flâneur]

My sort of reviews try to be factual. By principe i refuse to tell to people what they should think of the issue. I say if i liked it or not but that's all. Generally if i do the effort to write a review, that means i liked the book, otherwise i just ignore it.
If i am very interested by real critique about literature done by scholars and enjoy this kind of books, i am not a fan at all of the type of critique you can find in newspapers or on the internet and i almost always find it at best not very serious and at worst suspect.
Now, in the case of what Flaneur does in the oppening of this thread, there's obviously an intent to entertain his readers, and with this i have no problem. I don't like the overall trollish tone, but it is part of the game, and sometime to be funny you need to be dark. This review has for me a big advantage on the two previous i saw him do about this series, and that is that this time he gives you an idea of what is in the book. The job is done, i disagree with his review, but this time he actually reviewed the book.
I probably will post my own review later, but you don't need it to get an idea of what is in the book if you read the one Flaneur did here.
Just be aware that he is wrong and that the issue is good.... a great calm issue with excellent art and a well writen Cyclops.
Stephane, you do realise that a review is an opinion and is not a summary. It is in fact bad form to summarise something in detail within a serious review on any review or site because that would be a synopsis which is entirely different and is actually forbidden on this site's rules as well. I think there must be a linguistic error here because what you're expressing concern on has nothing to do with reviewing.

[AcesX1X]

"i see a tummy! i'm gonna buzz it! i'm gonna!" lol, i just love it. very cute.

so, does this mean maddie is not dead? also, does apocalypse not exist if little chris/nathan is so big? wow, he aged up pretty fast to me.

a little put-off by the psylocke/kitty scene....since when are those two friends?

[BBeeryan]

I wanna fucking read this.

[Azure]

Does anyone know where Colossus is in this universe? Had he become an acolyte yet? Is Rusty an acolyte yet?

Colossus is joining The Winter Guard. I'm guessing that he may start up a relationship with Ursa Major or Vanguard - haven't decided which one yet, though!

Rusty is probably honeymooning with Skids.

[timbox]

I wanna fucking read this.

How many girls did you have sex with last week?

[AcesX1X]

guys, i think x-factor is now non-canon in forever-verse? i don't think it ever existed.

[Filthy Mutie]

Stop trying to spin the book's premise and justify it. You can't explain what this book is supposed to be if even the creator doesn't know what it's supposed to be. It was marketed heavily (by CC, too, no less) as a time-line forking off of X-Men #3 (which is why they reprinted it again). With each issue it's become more and more clear that this is not actually the case.

Note: he trolls Marvel directly with the fake Storm bit, since they pushed so, so hard for the BP/Storm union.

[tlp0708]

No, he just corrected her off panel, just as he corrected Warren's blueness.

CC even mentions in the interview ZNOP posted that X-Men #1 occurred before Betsy's body swap. WTF? Didn't Betsy return as Lady Mandarin before X-Men #1?

[JohnSD]

I really, really want to like Forever, but it makes itself hard to like by putting in far too many retcons and distortions of continuity for it to feel like a proper "return" to Claremont's run. I know it needs to carve its own niche and diverge from 616 as quickly as possible, but almost by definition it is failing its mission statement by doing so...

But you know what, maybe I'll pick up Forever this week and see if I can get over the cynicism I've been caught up in for the last month or so,. Hopefully I can let the things I enjoy outweigh the things that annoy me about it.

Though I'm really not sure what to make of that last page reveal!.... Any theories on what is going on here?

[darknessatnoon]

Though I'm really not sure what to make of that last page reveal!.... Any theories on what is going on here?

Yeah, I theorize pettiness is at work. He didn't like being mandated to get rid of Nathan Summers, even though his story doing so was great. He didn't create Cable. He never wanted Scott to leave his retirement. So, now he's forcing Cyclops back into retirement and using the retcon of the kid as an excuse to get rid of him.This kid who has aged like three years in three months.

[tlp0708]

I want to like the book, I really do. Right now, my biggest issue with the run is that CC isn't even dealing with the things that happened before X-Men #1 as canon. He's basically picking and choosing which parts he should pay attention to. The absence of Rachel is obnoxious, Betsy's asian body switch being ignored is lazy, etc., etc., etc. And when did Jean/Scott get married in CC's world? They certainly weren't married in X-Men #1 (obviously since the wedding happens in #30, I think). I seem to remember a cooling off period at that time. And the Jean/Logan romance? Ughh.... How many times before Morrison was that even hinted at?

[AcesX1X]

I want to like the book, I really do. Right now, my biggest issue with the run is that CC isn't even dealing with the things that happened before X-Men #1 as canon. He's basically picking and choosing which parts he should pay attention to.

well, do you think that he must stick to everything prior to x-men 1? i have to wonder why if you think so. is it because of the way it was marketed?

[JohnSD]

CC even mentions in the interview ZNOP posted that X-Men #1 occurred before Betsy's body swap. WTF? Didn't Betsy return as Lady Mandarin before X-Men #1?

The way it was originally written in #256 she was cosmetically/surgically altered to have a far eastern appearance, so I think that's what CC is going for - the body swap thing was a later retcon (or at least there is no explicit hint of the swap when it occurs)

[darknessatnoon]

well, do you think that he must stick to everything prior to x-men 1? i have to wonder why if you think so. is it because of the way it was marketed?

Actually, yes. That's the premise of the book. That's the intellectual exercise CC is engaging in. To break the rules is to break a contract with the reader. The reaction from readers when the writer breaks the contract is supreme annoyance. And I will continue to read and complain about this book until Tessa appears.

[Majinoaw]

While I don't like this book--save for entertainment value at this point, I'm not really attacking anyone's taste. I just find the "you don't like it because you don't get CC's vision" stance an automatic forfeit. The premise is botched. There's no denying it.


Yeah. Now the botched part we can agree on. But for me I just put that out of my mind and said hey Claremont entertain me. You have to let go of continutity gripes in Marvel nowadays. If you didn't you wouldn't be able to read any new Spider-Man stories.

Claremont has put some things out there, that are pretty hard to reconcile - Muir Island, Nathan/Cable ... but rather than focus on everytime one of these things pops up (because more will and you know it) just focus on enjoying the stories as they are.

But Filthy you're cool by me. I have no beef with you and I respect your opinion. Thanks for keeping it civil.

[Home made ectoplasm]

The way it was originally written in #256 she was cosmetically/surgically altered to have a far eastern appearance, so I think that's what CC is going for - the body swap thing was a later retcon (or at least there is no explicit hint of the swap when it occurs)

Interesting, thanks.

[tlp0708]

well, do you think that he must stick to everything prior to x-men 1? i have to wonder why if you think so. is it because of the way it was marketed?

Probably because of the way it was marketed. CC said that he was only ignoring the stuff that came after #1, which would imply that he wasn't ignoring the stuff before it. I picked up the book because I liked where x-men was at in #1. But the continuity changes are really bugging me.

[tlp0708]

The way it was originally written in #256 she was cosmetically/surgically altered to have a far eastern appearance, so I think that's what CC is going for - the body swap thing was a later retcon (or at least there is no explicit hint of the swap when it occurs)

Aww, right. Thank you. But still, the cosmetic surgical changes are ignored.

[Flâneur]

Actually, yes. That's the premise of the book. That's the intellectual exercise CC is engaging in. To break the rules is to break a contract with the reader. The reaction from readers when the writer breaks the contract is supreme annoyance. And I will continue to read and complain about this book until Tessa appears.

Not long ago, readers pursued a court case, and won, against an author for misrepresenting what the book was about gaining settlement monies, an automatic refund policy and a disclaimer in the book. Do you think something similar might happen here, dn@n?

[AcesX1X]

yeah, guys. i guess i can see where you're coming from. i'm scared for other stories that may have been deleted. we may never know the full truth.

[Majinoaw]

The way it was originally written in #256 she was cosmetically/surgically altered to have a far eastern appearance, so I think that's what CC is going for - the body swap thing was a later retcon (or at least there is no explicit hint of the swap when it occurs)

The Lady Mandarin Saga was during Acts of Vengeance and ran from Uncanny X-Men 256 to Uncanny 258. Wolverine, Jubes and eventually Psylocke teamed up to fight the Hand and the Mandarin.

[Swashbuckler]

I want to like the book, I really do. Right now, my biggest issue with the run is that CC isn't even dealing with the things that happened before X-Men #1 as canon. He's basically picking and choosing which parts he should pay attention to. The absence of Rachel is obnoxious, Betsy's asian body switch being ignored is lazy, etc., etc., etc. And when did Jean/Scott get married in CC's world? They certainly weren't married in X-Men #1 (obviously since the wedding happens in #30, I think). I seem to remember a cooling off period at that time. And the Jean/Logan romance? Ughh.... How many times before Morrison was that even hinted at?

I agree with most of this, though claiming Betsy's still asian just under different means is acceptable I suppose. X-Men Corrections is a hillarious book. I think it's totally ridiculous and pathetic. I think Claremont is entirely washed-up and broken, but like Marvel, I will continue to help put CC by purchasing this terrible comic. I laugh at how bad it is usually, and that's the enjoyment I get out of it. It's so bad it's comical.

I am SUPER EXCITED that Rachel Grey has been aborted from the Forever (666) Universe. She's such a piece of crap. I do hope we get more explanation about Betsy soon though, as well as where all the other mutants who were around in issues of X-Men 1, 2 and 3 are (unless they appear here and I just missed it, haven't read it yet). I just hope Jubilee sticks around.

[AcesX1X]

The Lady Mandarin Saga was during Acts of Vengeance and ran from Uncanny X-Men 256 to Uncanny 258. Wolverine, Jubes and eventually Psylocke teamed up to fight the Hand and the Mandarin.

there is no guarantee things happened this way in forever, maj.

[tlp0708]

The little things are bugging me; Jean/Scott suddenly married, Betsy's physical features suddenly reverting, Rachel erased entirely. These omissions/changes (as far as I can tell) aren't necessary for CC to branch off in his new direction. Rather, they're just lazy omissions/changes.

[tlp0708]

there is no guarantee things happened this way in forever, maj.

Which is annoying because this storyline precedes by 20+ issues CC's X-Men run.

[Filthy Mutie]

I think alternate reality stories, when done well, are very entertaining. Claremont turned a potentially major league all-star series into a game of Calvin Ball. It would've been so easy for him to write new material that moved completely forward from X-Men #3. "And the time forking is there, in feel and nuance."? Macbeth was a sci-fi story with gothic overtones in feel and nuance. Everything can be anything with that kind of "artistic" explanation.

I wanted to enjoy this book when it started. I was actually pretty excited by it when it was being marketed to me. After a few issues, I got angry. I gave him yet a(nother) shot and regretted it.

[darknessatnoon]

The trolling bit is kind of a joke.

No, he wouldn't be called boring. I think alternate reality stories, when done well, are very entertaining. He turned a potentially major league all-star series into a game of Calvin Ball. It would've been so easy for him to write new material that moved completely forward from X-Men #3. "And the time forking is there, in feel and nuance."? Macbeth was a sci-fi story with gothic overtones in feel and nuance. Everything can be anything with that kind of "artistic" explanation.

Yes, there are people who loathe CC and his work regardless of what's actually being made. I wanted to enjoy this book when it started. I was actually pretty excited by it when it was being marketed to me. After a few issues, I got angry. I gave him yet a(nother) shot and regretted it.

Quite frankly, in my mind he could not have picked up from issue 3. CC's vision never brought the energy to the book. Byrne brought the energy. Silvestri and Romita brought the energy. Jim Lee brought the energy. That's at least 70% of why we were even bothering to read the book. Without an artist of that caliber to propel the action forward, it's just a bunch of group therapy scenes.

[Talisman]

Quite frankly, in my mind he could not have picked up from issue 3. CC's vision never brought the energy to the book. Byrne brought the energy. Silvestri and Romita brought the energy. Jim Lee brought the energy. That's at least 70% of why we were even bothering to read the book. Without an artist of that caliber, to propel the action forward, it's just a bunch of group therapy scenes.


It'll just get closed and then appended to the end of this one.

This is true. Around the time Gambit was first introduced was some of the lowest sales for the title because the art was so sub par. If he's not saddled with a hot artist, his stories are usually very bland and unappealing.

[Home made ectoplasm]

Quite frankly, in my mind he could not have picked up from issue 3. CC's vision never brought the energy to the book. Byrne brought the energy. Silvestri and Romita brought the energy. Jim Lee brought the energy. That's at least 70% of why we were even bothering to read the book. Without an artist of that caliber to propel the action forward, it's just a bunch of group therapy scenes.

Personally, I'd rather read group therapy scenes that shite about feats or rumbles.

[Majinoaw]

Quite frankly, in my mind he could not have picked up from issue 3. CC's vision never brought the energy to the book. Byrne brought the energy. Silvestri and Romita brought the energy. Jim Lee brought the energy. That's at least 70% of why we were even bothering to read the book. Without an artist of that caliber to propel the action forward, it's just a bunch of group therapy scenes.
Great art helped him out tremendously.

[Flâneur]

Personally, I'd rather read group therapy scenes that shite about feats or rumbles.

Have you slept with an omega level of women this week, jau? Was PIS involved?

[darknessatnoon]

Personally, I'd rather read group therapy scenes that shite about feats or rumbles.

Really? Because the X-Men were famous for the "coordinated fight scenes." But when the fight scenes are undynamically rendered, it's a bore to slog through them. The fact is, CC always did his best when the plotting for the book was shared with someone whose visual sensibility was at least as good as his textual one.

[tlp0708]

He is the most consistent writer in X-universe history. Even his detractors lament about the plots and characterizations that they know so well. And should know by now.

So where is that consistency in this book? How do you explain the silly, minor things that he outright ignores?

I love CC. DPS is my favorite story from the whole franchise. But what CC is doing now isn't even close to DPS. And his previous work doesn't excuse the inconsistency right now.

[JohnSD]

Aww, right. Thank you. But still, the cosmetic surgical changes are ignored.

I think that might just be the art - it took me until the Sisterhood arc in Uncanny and my discovery of Psylocke's complicated history to figure out she was meant to Asian at all - in all the issues she was in since House Of M I'd never realised that, and I hadn't read anything from the 80s with her in it yet to so didn't know her origin... In the scans posted she looks as Asian as she does in 90% of her appearances... :smile:

[worstblogever]

Wed May 20, 2009 — by Glenn Hauman
Interview: Chris Claremont on 'X-Men Forever', part 1

[SIZE="2"]ComicMix: X-Men Forever Alpha is a reprint of the first three issues plus an eight page bridge to the new series, correct? What do we need to know going in?

Chris Claremont: Essentially nothing. Those were the issues going in, to establish all the fundamental parameters: the X-Men are a team of heroes that are based at Xavier school for gifted youngsters at Salem center, outside of New York City.

CM: So you’re starting up right from where you left the book in 1991.

CC: Yes.

CM: Is this House Of C, then, as compared to House of M?

CC: No, it’s the Marvel Universe, there’s no real change to it, other than the fact that in a very practical sense that the subsequent sixteen, seventeen years of material following my departure doesn’t exist.

CM: So this is a new forked off continuity.

CC: Yes. We’re essentially picking up where I left off and the only acknowledgment we are making to the passage of time is that if a label needs to be placed on #1, #2, and #3, they occurred in the opening months, weeks, whatever of 2009.


Man, the actual inteview and anything. Thanks, ZNOP.

Cable existed prior to Claremont's departure in X-Men #3

Claremont plotted the issue of X-Factor where Cyclops sends baby Nate to the future.

This isn't "Claremont picking up where he left off in 1991" its Claremont giving the finger to everyone who ever enjoyed an X-Men comic after he left.

Uh huh.

Rachel is from the Day of Future past universe and jumped into the 616. She was kidnapped by the Body Shoppe shortly before the Mutant Masscare. She did not appear again until the first issue of Excalibur.

EDIT: Oh wait, I see. He did show Exalibur (which started in 1988) but he did not show Rachel. That is odd.

Uh huh...



Claremont trolls Fraction's endorsement of Namor, and his fans, by declaring that there were no old mutants, as all mutants were dying, burnt out by their powers. He also ends up trolling himself in the meanwhile.
Claremont trolls good sense by (failing in the effort of) building up Sentinels designed by a neo-Nazi who sounds like a David Bowie lyric pronounced with a broken jaw.


So, now that we're all caught up, let's turn to the latest issue, X-men:Corrections #10:

Claremont ego strokes New Mutants fans with a brief appearance of these alumni (in-house advertising!) as they arrive to Wolverine's funeral (TROLL) along with the Avengers and the Fantastic Four.
Claremont trolls Forge fans (are there any?! Maybe he made a misstep) by having Forge experience a brief Lolita/pedophile moment regarding dwarf Ororo.
Claremont trolls Rachel Summers fans by having her not exist when Excalisuck comes to the funeral. Incidentally, Betsy appears with Excalisuck and shares a light headbutt with Kitty.
Claremont trolls Hulk fans by turning Bruce Banner into a delivery boy who thinks about how Hulk wasn't capable of helping Wolverine.
Claremont trolls all fans with any taste by referencing True Friends as the Queen sends a torque to the X-men for Wolverine's funeral.
Claremont then goes for the absolute double whammy, trolling both Scott/Jean shippers and Rachel Summers fans with ... aw, heck, I'll just post the page:
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/2151/snapshot20091028190532.tif

So yeah, Scott either has a second family which he didn't tell Jean about or faked the whole baby Nathan into the future thing and amidst all this family dramaz, Rachel still doesn't appear. HARSH.


Great review Flanny, I snipped for these highlights to keep in brief.

Like I said, an X-Title without Wolverine, not to mention Claremont has promised that "dead means dead". I'm totally cool with that.

He also promised it would follow continuity after X-Men #3. His pitched "Dark Wolverine Saga" was supposed to involve Logan resurrected by the Hand, right? So... be read for DEAD IS DEAD to get ignored.

I'm really pissed off with this review.

It neglected to mention that CC made Psylocke white. She had round-eyes this issue. She is no longer an AZN, and he did it to her off panel.
I loved how Angel, Iceman and Cyclops all retired this issue for no particular reason.

Maybe they'll all go to L.A. and reform a new Champions team.

You can't explain what this book is supposed to be if even the creator doesn't know what it's supposed to be. It was marketed heavily (by CC, too, no less) as a time-line forking off of X-Men #3 (which is why they reprinted it again). With each issue it's become more and more clear that this is not actually the case.

Note: he trolls Marvel directly with the fake Storm bit, since they pushed so, so hard for the BP/Storm union.

Filthy Mutie may have just jumped into the lead for my October XPOTM.


Look, it's pretty straightforward. This is not the masterpiece one would've hoped it would be. Honestly, by the time 1991 rolled around, there were a lot of stale X-Men issues coming out for a year or two from Claremont. Increasing the number of books being shipped began increasing the number of continuity errors that were coming to pass. And he notoriously does not like editorial stepping in to keep him focused. Issue #10 is particularly full of these "whoops!" moments because he tried incorporating the entire Marvel Universe. When he wrote this script, I don't think he had it in mind to go back and check to see where Corsair was at that time (probably in space, not in Alaska) or read Hulk (wasn't Banner the Green "professor Hulk" in 1991, and a member of the Pantheon? WHOOPS.), Avengers, or any other book to make it all sync up. The mighty creator is in way over his head on trying to keep track of all this stuff.

The book does capture the vintage Claremont pacing, and dialogue. So yes, I agree with Flaneur, if that's all you're here for, you'll enjoy it. Otherwise, it's not so great.

I'm out.

[Home made ectoplasm]

I love CC. DPS is my favorite story from the whole franchise. But what CC is doing now isn't even close to DPS. And his previous work doesn't excuse the inconsistency right now.

I am a huge CC fan, fair enough if maybe some people don't believe me because I can have a laugh about this title.

But if you are a new X Men reader, you've heard CC is the definitive writer of the franchise (which he is), and then you pick up some of his newer work - you are going to be a bit confused.

I don't want to think new readers are going to read "Die by the Sword" or similar, think it is substandard, and as a result never even give his classic run a chance. I genuinely enjoy this comic, but I think that over-praising it is counter-productive.

However, this thread is currently the busiest one on the board and twice as long as the new Necrosha thread, so all things considered, good publicity for CC.

[Flâneur]

I think that might just be the art - it took me until the Sisterhood arc in Uncanny and my discovery of Psylocke's complicated history to figure out she was meant to Asian at all - in all the issues she was in since House Of M I'd never realised that, and I hadn't read anything from the 80s with her in it yet to so didn't know her origin... In the scans posted she looks as Asian as she does in 90% of her appearances... :smile:

Claremont wrote all those appearances in her asian body though, control of Psylocke was part of his contract. So this is only being consistent with CC's pre-emptive 'correction'.

[tlp0708]

I think that might just be the art - it took me until the Sisterhood arc in Uncanny and my discovery of Psylocke's complicated history to figure out she was meant to Asian at all - in all the issues she was in since House Of M I'd never realised that, and I hadn't read anything from the 80s with her in it yet to so didn't know her origin... In the scans posted she looks as Asian as she does in 90% of her appearances... :smile:

It's not just the art. From ZNOP's post on page #1:

Betsy Braddock has not been transferred into a cloned dead Asian body.


Even if the cloned part is retconned, he seems to be inferring that the Asian features didn't appear at all before his run. At the very least, he could've said Betsy isn't in an Asian body yet, but she does have Asian features from Spiral's (right?) surgical experiment.

[Talisman]

I loved how Angel, Iceman and Cyclops all retired this issue for no particular reason.
It's not really surprising, he could never write Bobby or Warren very well.

[tlp0708]

I am a huge CC fan, fair enough if maybe some people don't believe me because I can have a laugh about this title.

But if you are a new X Men reader, you've heard CC is the definitive writer of the franchise (which he is), and then you pick up some of his newer work - you are going to be a bit confused.

I don't want to think new readers are going to read "Die by the Sword" or similar, think it is substandard, and as a result never even give his classic run a chance. I genuinely enjoy this comic, but I think that over-praising it is counter-productive.

However, this thread is currently the busiest one on the board and twice as long as the new Necrosha thread, so all things considered, good publicity for CC.

The first X-Men issue I ever picked up was X-Men #1, followed by Uncanny #281. I went back and read the old stuff afterwards. So basically, my X-Men love was groomed by CC. But this is ridiculous!

[tlp0708]

And, when I dropped X-Men altogether, it wasn't CC that made me give up; the Phalanx covenant is what made me say "I'm done." I picked it up again with the Extremists run.

[Filthy Mutie]

Quite frankly, in my mind he could not have picked up from issue 3. CC's vision never brought the energy to the book. Byrne brought the energy. Silvestri and Romita brought the energy. Jim Lee brought the energy. That's at least 70% of why we were even bothering to read the book. Without an artist of that caliber to propel the action forward, it's just a bunch of group therapy scenes.

I can see where you're coming from. In my mind, I might be substituting "CC" with "a currently relevant writer". For example, I think Duane Swierczynski could've started writing X-Men stories from this point in history, buuuut... you know. Whatever, who cares.

It's hard for me to look at it so objectively since it's how I got drawn into the X-Books and comics in general, but I can say at the time that if it wasn't Jim Lee on pencils, I wasn't too interested in it.

[darknessatnoon]

I can see where you're coming from. In my mind, I might be substituting "CC" with "a currently relevant writer". For example, I think Duane Swierczynski could've started writing X-Men stories from this point in history, buuuut... you know. Whatever, who cares.

It's hard for me to look at it so objectively since it's how I got drawn into the X-Books and comics in general, but I can say at the time that if it wasn't Jim Lee on pencils, I wasn't too interested in it.

I don't think he would write it, though. You'd have to find a writer who felt impelled to pick up from this point, which I can't see anyone doing. The very project of correcting the X-Men instead of just writing a fresh story that takes bad material and recycles it (what the X-Office did with Messiah Complex and what Yost and Kyle are doing now with Necrosha) requires a narcissistic investment that only the person cut off mid-coitus would have.

[JohnSD]

It's not just the art. From ZNOP's post on page #1:

Betsy Braddock has not been transferred into a cloned dead Asian body.


I just read that to mean that the story from #256 - where CC wrote her being surgically transformed to Asian in the Body Shoppe - was canon, but the whole Kwannon/Revanche body swap thing (which wasn't revealed/retconned until a few years later) was not. I could be wrong though - does CC have a history of denying the asian appearance of psylocke?

[worstblogever]

Something I noticed when I saw the preview... does Sabretooth grow his eyes back for one panel when he starts getting all butt hurt during the opening sequence, only to not have them in the next panel? Yeah, he grows them real fast on Page 5, and they're gone fpr the two next panels on that page, and Page 6.

That's more on the art. Whoops.

[Filthy Mutie]

I don't think he would write it, though. You'd have to find a writer who felt impelled to pick up from this point, which I can't see anyone doing. The very project of correcting the X-Men instead of just writing a fresh story that takes bad material and recycles it (what the X-Office did with Messiah Complex and what Yost and Kyle are doing now with Necrosha) requires a narcissistic investment that only the person cut off mid-coitus would have.

Well... yeah. Obviously.

But, he could've.

[Flâneur]

I just read that to mean that the story from #256 - where CC wrote her being surgically transformed to Asian in the Body Shoppe - was canon, but the whole Kwannon/Revanche body swap thing (which wasn't revealed/retconned until a few years later) was not. I could be wrong though - does CC have a history of denying the asian appearance of psylocke?

Claremont has been trying to have Betsy be British for the last decade which Marvel refuses to assent to so Betsy's 'asian-ness' is dismissed in other ways. Now he has a universe completely under his control with no editorial control.

[Stephane Garrelie]

Now more focus on the book itself.

The page i enjoyed the most is the final page, i liked the rest of the issue because it had a well writen Cyclops and because i see potentialty interesting stuff with the guest-stars: Do Moira and Banshee arrive at the same time as the Avengers, or are they Avengers members?
I certainly would like it if the people in this panel where the current cast of the Avengers in the Foreverse. I'l like to read some of adentures as a second feature from time to time, by Claremont of Course.

[Filthy Mutie]

Claremont has been trying to have Betsy be British for the last decade which Marvel refuses to assent to so Betsy's 'asian-ness' is dismissed in other ways. Now he has a universe completely under his control with no editorial control.

I think he's also taking a page from the Matt Fraction Playbook by having events of importance happen off-panel to keep the story moving forward.

[RolandJP]

Now more focus on the book itself.

The page i enjoyed the most is the final page, i liked the rest of the issue because it had a well writen Cyclops and because i see potentialty interesting stuff with the guest-stars: Do Moira and Banshee arrive at the same time as the Avengers, or are they Avengers members?
I certainly would like it if the people in this panel where the current cast of the Avengers in the Foreverse. I'l like to read some of adentures as a second feature from time to time, by Claremont of Course.


On second thought, i take back my earlier post. I enjoyed this issue. For that very reason.

[darknessatnoon]

Now more focus on the book itself.

The page i enjoyed the most is the final page, i liked the rest of the issue because it had a well writen Cyclops and because i see potentialty interesting stuff with the guest-stars: Do Moira and Banshee arrive at the same time as the Avengers, or are they Avengers members?
I certainly would like it if the people in this panel where the current cast of the Avengers in the Foreverse. I'l like to read some of adentures as a second feature from time to time, by Claremont of Course.

I am 99% sure that Moira McTaggart is not in the Avengers.

[RolandJP]

I am 99% sure that Moira McTaggart is not in the Avengers.

Its a leap of faith. Just like the Vulcan, an Cassandra Nova retcon.


Just go with it. :redface:

[worstblogever]

I am 99% sure that Moira McTaggart is not in the Avengers.

Yeah, they already have Jarvis as their butler, why would they need the maid that Xavier cut from payroll?

[Swashbuckler]

Wait, did Jubilee appear or not? Has CC deleted her from the universe too?

[Talisman]

Was she supposed to be Moira Brandon?

[timbox]

On second thought, i take back my earlier post. I enjoyed this issue. For that very reason.

I believe there is a contingent that loves his writing/him regardless.

[Stephane Garrelie]

I am 99% sure that Moira McTaggart is not in the Avengers.

That would be pretty cool though. Of course not as a fighter, but as a scientist working with them and living at the manor. Maybe a sort of Oracle character.

[Filthy Mutie]

I believe there is a contingent that loves his writing/him regardless.

Ah, yes, I knew I forgot something in an earlier post I made.

I am 99% sure that Moira McTaggart is not in the Avengers.

Yeah, DN@N, just go with it!

[Prodigy55]

Banshee joined the Avengers in this issue?

[Stephane Garrelie]

Banshee joined the Avengers in this issue?

That's not sure at all. Maybe Banshee and Moira just arrive at the same time as the Avengers.
But that would be cool.

[Flâneur]

Wait, did Jubilee appear or not? Has CC deleted her from the universe too?

Jubilee has been deleted.

[darknessatnoon]

Its a leap of faith. Just like the Vulcan, an Cassandra Nova retcon.


Just go with it. :redface:

You seem to think I'm invested in Vulcan, which is amusing.

Wait, did Jubilee appear or not? Has CC deleted her from the universe too?

Jubes appeared in the 8 page teaser, non?

[Swashbuckler]

Stephane,

Do you think CC will get around to Jubilee? Wolverine did bring her to the X-Mansion and then he died. What, she just lef ton her own? Off panel? Doesn't stuff like this make you curious/irritated that it's ignored? She's my favorite character.

[Daniel Mengsk]

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/2453/snapshot20091029002636.tif

Well, I see that Betsy still prefers them young.

[Talisman]

Well, I see that Betsy still prefers them young.
And Wolverine's asian fetish has rubbed off on Kitty.

[AcesX1X]

Well, I see that Betsy still prefers them young.

still don't understand when psylocke and kitty became such friends? she's only blending foreheads with her because kitty's got dead doug ramsey's brain waves all over her psyche.

[darknessatnoon]

still don't understand when psylocke and kitty became such friends? she's only blending foreheads with her because kitty's got dead doug ramsey's brain waves all over her psyche.

Psylocke was Kitty's only connection to the world when she went out of control phasing in the X-Men/FF mini.

[Swashbuckler]

Psylocke was Kitty's only connection to the world when she went out of control phasing in the X-Men/FF mini.

True, plus I'm getting the impression that Psylocke went to Excalibur with Kurt and Kitty. It's a mystery that's unexplained of course.

[Home made ectoplasm]

True, plus I'm getting the impression that Psylocke went to Excalibur with Kurt and Kitty. It's a mystery that's unexplained of course.

Not unexplained, just not disclosed yet. I still think we could see an Excalibur Corrections title.

[timbox]

I would love for Kitty and Betsy to become BFFs. They're my two all time favorite X-Men.

[Talisman]

Has he corrected that Sabes is Wolvie's dad yet?

[Talisman]

I would love for Kitty and Betsy to become BFFs. They're my two all time favorite X-Men.
What about Surge and X23?

[Filthy Mutie]

Not unexplained, just not disclosed yet. I still think we could see an Excalibur Corrections title.

It will be explained in the New Mutants Forever book. Not Dead Doug will have a therapy session with Round-Eye Betsy which will lead to her making the decision to leave.

[timbox]

What about Surge and X23?

I said all time. Those two page hogs don't even exist in this universe.

[Talisman]

I said all time. Those two page hogs don't even exist in this universe.

Shame. Claremont could do wonders with them.

I wonder if Karma's going to remain a lesbian in the Forever verse?

[RolandJP]

Psychological complexes I would like to see exhibited in XMF


Anal-retention, used conversationally to describe a person with such attention to detail that the obsession becomes an annoyance to others, and can be carried out to the detriment of the anal-retentive person.

Polycrates Complex a desire to be punished.

Madonna-whore complex--this complex often develops when the sufferer is raised by a cold and distant mother. In the mind of the sufferer, love and sex cannot be mixed.

Pleasure principle is a psychoanalytic concept, originated by Sigmund Freud. The pleasure principle states that people seek pleasure and avoid pain, i.e., people seek to satisfy biological and psychological needs.

Reality principle is a psychoanalytic concept that compels one to defer instant gratification when necessary because of the obstacles of reality.

The Electra complex and Oedipus themes have been done to death.

[Stephane Garrelie]

1-The The Story
The funerals of Logan. The issue focus on Cyclops . After putting an end to a fight between Gambit and Sabretooth with the help of Kitty, Jean and ’ro, Scott have a quick chat with Charles Xavier who is still looking for a cure to the «:swear:no old mutants:swear:» situation. Scott understand why the prof took the decision to hide the truth but he considers it was a wrong one and that they had the right to know. Things are even worse given how much he mattered to them. He then see a photo of the Jean, Hank, Bobby, Warren and himself at their beging and think of that time and of how young they were. He then go to see Jean and to offer her a friendly shoulder. In the morning, the guests arrive at the mansion: The the New Mutants, Excalibur and the Avengers, Banshee, Moira, the Fantastic Four and Jean parents too, and Alpha Flight. Bruce Banner deliver some flowers, Sabretooth stay in his room. And there’s Bobby and Warren, Scott ask them if they got the latest data update from Hank… etc… And the funeral take place and Scott is the one who pronounce the funeral elegy. When all is done we follow Cyclops in Alaska, at the house of his grand parents, where is risen a maybe 6 or 7 years old called Nathan. The son of Scott.

2-The Characters.

The issue focus on Cyclops, he is the narrator. His son Nathan appears on the last page and looks like a nice kid. We see in one same panel the arrival of Moira, Banshee, Wanda, Vision, Crystal and Pietro. I wonder if that’s the cast of the Avengers in the Foreververse. I would certainly like to read some of their adventures as a second feature by Claremont . That may be just a coincidence though.. The SHIELD is in charge of the security, we see Nick Fury, we also see the Consortium folks in the shadows.

3-Overall opinion.

Good issue, great art. I liked the final page even more than all the rest and hope we will see Nathan often. This is a calm issue. In term of story not much is added (excepted for the final page) but the psychology of Scott is explored and we learn more about what his life is today. The many guest stars give us a look on the rest of the Marvel universe, and contribute to the general mood of the issue.

[Ryan W]

Anyway.

As I said before, I like the book too, just not enough to put it on my pull-list. I frankly just wish the pacing were a bit better and I sort of knew where things were headed. It's 10 issues in and so far this incarnation of the X-Men seems a bit direction-less. But that might be the theme of the book? It's hard to have a "wait and see" attitude sometimes.

[Pixie_Solanas]

I would love for Kitty and Betsy to become BFFs. They're my two all time favorite X-Men.

"She shoots, she scores! Psylocke for the win!"

[jubilees_boyfriend]

so... Jubilee didn't show up in this issue afterall... even though C.C. told me himself that Jubes would show up in issue 10 for Wolverine's funeral, and would make her presence known.

I'm a bit ticked off actually. I've been waiting a couple months to see her show up in this issue, and it doesn't even happen? Its basically a slap on the wrist to anyone who is fond of Wolverine/Jubilee's father-daughter relationship... as it completely takes her out of the picture.

[Brian Cronin]

1. Obviously you can't say stuff like Goshin did. That's why he's off for a few days (and if it happens again, it'll be a permanent leave of absence).

2. Yeah, it's fair enough to note that the "Corrections" bit works fine as a joke, but not in the format it originally appeared in. Here, it is still present, but not as aggresively (and there's really no need for it to be so aggressive)

3. Here is not the place to debate review theories. We have X-Cres for all off-topic discussion.

4. If someone wants to criticize a book, they can criticize a book. There will be no "Why read it if you don't like it." That does nothing for discussion, which is what this place IS, a discussion forum.

5. Writers get the same basic protections as posters, but "Claremont is trolling Wolverine fans" is not a personal insult.

6. The work itself, though, CAN be teased. If you don't appreciate someone teasing the work, feel free to not respond to the person who is teasing the work. Or, if you prefer, respond to them. I don't care either way, just don't give me stuff like "You shouldn't make fun of a comic" (this applies to comic book characters, as well - it's okay to make fun of comic book characters).

-Brian

[RolandJP]

Right, Grand Pubah! I gotcha.

[Anodyne]

X-23, Kitty, and Psylocke should have a girl's night out and get their races re-done. Too much time spent with Nightcrawler drains their precious mutant life-force.
Kentucky Derby, Daytona 500, or Boston Marathon? :tongue:

[Shaid O Gray]

I don't understand why people say this is a must for 'Old School X-Men Fans!!' Or that if you don't love it you're obviously 12 or something. I started reading in 1979! And this does not feel like 'old school X-Men' to me. It certainly doesn't feel like late 80's/early90's X-Men to me. I WANT to like the book. I was really looking forward to it. But apart from the quality just being a tad ho-hum I agree with some others that the premise wasn't followed up upon.

The premise was CC starting over at that particular continuity point after adjectivless X-Men 1-3. The whole selling point was returning to that era and how the characters were then. For those who felt things went blah after he left. Well, by now it's clear he had no real interest in going back to those times or in the characters as he left them. They didn't put his starting point there because he wanted to go to that time and use it, he only wanted to wipe away everything that came after so he'd have a clean slate. Then he just ignored a good amount of what came before as well, gave everyone an instant makeover and new status quo in the first few issues (no matter how little sense some of it made) and start something pretty much unattached to anything.

Now if that's what they let him do, and some people like it, that's fine. But it's NOT how they sold it or what they promised.

And to do what? Replace Wolverine with Sabretooth? To give me Sentinels? Again? And yet another Trask brat? Really?

[RolandJP]

Yeah it has been hit and miss on the "old school continuation thing" But I am groovin on the team feel. I also enjoyed seeing the new mutants as younger kids.

[nightw1ng]

the reason Rachel doesn't appear is because she doesn't exist in the Forever universe. Claremont is going with his "Rachel is unique among the multiverse and has no alternate reality selves" idea and only exists in the 616 universe, even though that idea has been disproven already with several alternate reality stories.

[Swashbuckler]

the reason Rachel doesn't appear is because she doesn't exist in the Forever universe. Claremont is going with his "Rachel is unique among the multiverse and has no alternate reality selves" idea and only exists in the 616 universe, even though that idea has been disproven already with several alternate reality stories.

We can only hope. Rachel never exsisting again except in 616 space stories is GREAT NEWS!

[Shaid O Gray]

Yeah it has been hit and miss on the "old school continuation thing" But I am groovin on the team feel. I also enjoyed seeing the new mutants as younger kids.

Wish I could say the same but I'm just not feeling it.

the reason Rachel doesn't appear is because she doesn't exist in the Forever universe. Claremont is going with his "Rachel is unique among the multiverse and has no alternate reality selves" idea and only exists in the 616 universe, even though that idea has been disproven already with several alternate reality stories

I don't know. I think it's more that he simply doesn't want to use her so he doesn't. Same for Betsy, Peter, Jubilee... He doesn't want them so he simply instantly writes them out or just doesn't refer to them. I don't get the impression that much thought is put into it. He just does what he wants and doesn't particularly seem to care much about logic and/or motivations.

[nightw1ng]

I don't know. I think it's more that he simply doesn't want to use her so he doesn't. Same for Betsy, Peter, Jubilee... He doesn't want them so he simply instantly writes them out or just doesn't refer to them. I don't get the impression that much thought is put into it. He just does what he wants and doesn't particularly seem to care much about logic and/or motivations.
well, in rachel's case, he did explicitly state, either in an interview or comix-fan (i forget which), that she wouldn't appear because of the "no alternate selves" thing he's fond of.

[IvCNuB4]

When all is done we follow Cyclops in Alaska, at the house of his grand parents, where is risen a maybe 6 or 7 years old called Nathan. The son of Scott.[/SPOILER].

Ha ! I flipped through it quickly and thought that was a little girl ! I thought it was Rachel :biggrin:

[Optic Rage!]

What a load of SHITE.

As if CC would REALLY kill Wolverine back in 91, at the height of the X-Men's popularity? Get rid of the biggest star? And did he actually retire Cyclops in this issue? Yeah, an X-Men book without Cyclops & Wolverine in the 90's? Yeah, sure.

Also, how the hell does Cable being a kid make any sense at all? He's contradicting his own stories now, Cable has already been back as an adult in New Mutants for at least a year.

Well, W/E going by the sale figures, it won't be around for much longer.

[Home made ectoplasm]

Well, W/E going by the sale figures, it won't be around for much longer.

Although I agree with the rest of your post, Marvel must think this title has some mileage left before they commissioned a 2nd Forever title. Anyway, as the OP says, (CC's quote) Marvel have to give Claremont work. If they cancelled this they would have to give him something else. And I can't see any alternative Claremont title performing better for them than this.

[Godlike13]

Im sorry as much as i like reading Jean alive again, X-Men Forever does nothing for me, and i tried.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Ziegfried Trask is the best new character of 2009. Eat it, haters.

[Optic Rage!]

Although I agree with the rest of your post, Marvel must think this title has some mileage left before they commissioned a 2nd Forever title. Anyway, as the OP says, (CC's quote) Marvel have to give Claremont work. If they cancelled this they would have to give him something else. And I can't see any alternative Claremont title performing better for them than this.

What about Queen Storm?

[Home made ectoplasm]

What about Queen Storm?

Well, if they let him write an in continuity 616 storm ongoing, that would be great. Cancel Forever immediately!

[Jake V]

Im sorry as much as i like reading Jean alive again, X-Men Forever does nothing for me, and i tried.
I don't care what the comic says, thats not Jean Grey. The willowy, weeping, weak woman in X-Men Forever bears no resemblance to the strong willed, second only to Xavier in power Jean Grey that existed for decades.

And as much of a fan I am of a Logan/Jean relationship, they NEVER HAD ONE at any point. Jean and Logan were never "happy together" because they were never "together" to begin with.

[MartinRedmond]

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/6496/snapshot20091028172027.tif

It's a sad day for Chris Claremont, isn't it? To have fallen into such a situation and, after hearing his passive aggression (http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showpost.php?p=1508885&postcount=664) last week it's quite obvious to see how he feels about this.

All of this, however, has given me a brilliant new perspective on what X-men: Forever well and truly is. It's not simply a continuation of Chris Claremont's prior work as the absence of the Dark Wolverine Saga demonstrates but it is not the simple sniping one could construe from a work which inherently dismisses all other writer's stories as not real ('real' in the sense of a canon wanker on the net, at least). No, Claremont has, in the publication of X-men: Corrections, perfected trolling of the 'fans' to a fine art. Let us have a brief recap of what's happened so far:

Claremont trolls Wolverine fans by killing Wolverine in the very first issue.
Claremont trolls Psylocke fans by deporting her azn arse to Britain off panel.
Claremont trolls Scott/Jean shippers by having Jean in an open affair with Wolverine while married to Scott. Plot still ongoing.
After the extended battle with Sabretooth in issue 2, and the battle with Storm in issue 3, Claremont decides to troll Storm/Black Panther shippers by turning Storm into a lying duplicitous bitch who faked all feelings. The Storm/BP romance now never happened.
Claremont trolls Sage fans by having Kitty, the Jew, take on the visage and part of Afghani Sage but with extra claw.
Claremont trolls Fraction's endorsement of Namor, and his fans, by declaring that there were no old mutants, as all mutants were dying, burnt out by their powers. He also ends up trolling himself in the meanwhile.
Claremont trolls good sense by (failing in the effort of) building up Sentinels designed by a neo-Nazi who sounds like a David Bowie lyric pronounced with a broken jaw.

So, now that we're all caught up, let's turn to the latest issue, X-men:Forever #10:

Claremont ego strokes New Mutants fans with a brief appearance of these alumni (in-house advertising!) as they arrive to Wolverine's funeral (TROLL) along with the Avengers and the Fantastic Four.
Claremont trolls Forge fans (are there any?! Maybe he made a misstep) by having Forge experience a brief Lolita/pedophile moment regarding dwarf Ororo.
Claremont trolls Rachel Summers fans by having her not exist when Excalisuck comes to the funeral. Incidentally, Betsy appears with Excalisuck and shares a light headbutt with Kitty.
Claremont trolls Hulk fans by turning Bruce Banner into a delivery boy who thinks about how Hulk wasn't capable of helping Wolverine.
Claremont trolls all fans with any taste by referencing True Friends as the Queen sends a torque to the X-men for Wolverine's funeral.
Claremont then goes for the absolute double whammy, trolling both Scott/Jean shippers and Rachel Summers fans with ... aw, heck, I'll just post the page:
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/2151/snapshot20091028190532.tif

So yeah, Scott either has a second family which he didn't tell Jean about or faked the whole baby Nathan into the future thing and amidst all this family dramaz, Rachel still doesn't appear. HARSH.


You know, it really is a pity about the story, I mean, the dialogue is hokey and this just doesn't require a certain 'taste', it genuinely is poorly written but ... if you're an avid fan then you can pull the wool over your eyes and pretend if it was well plotted but it isn't. It simply plays to a Claremont following who want to read their own fan fiction validated by Claremont and it's an immense pity to see such great art wasted on that, and makes no mistake, the art is really good compared to previous issues but it's still such a waste.

Patient Diagnosis:

D - recommended only for explicit Claremont fans.

It's refreshing to read reviews from casual, non hardcore comics readers who haven't got decades of continuity memorised in and out like this. Keep up the good work, flaneur.

[worstblogever]

Also reviewing the funeral attendees and it's odd that Crystal and Quicksilver attend together. They were separated in 1991, when this comic came out. Not fully divorced, but they were serving on opposite Avengers teams and had a big falling out in the Inhumans Graphic Novel.

[tlp0708]

I don't care what the comic says, thats not Jean Grey. The willowy, weeping, weak woman in X-Men Forever bears no resemblance to the strong willed, second only to Xavier in power Jean Grey that existed for decades.

And as much of a fan I am of a Logan/Jean relationship, they NEVER HAD ONE at any point. Jean and Logan were never "happy together" because they were never "together" to begin with.

Amen! I've stuck with the series because it at least has Jean in it. But this is not Jean.

[Jake V]

Also reviewing the funeral attendees and it's odd that Crystal and Quicksilver attend together. They were separated in 1991, when this comic came out. Not fully divorced, but they were serving on opposite Avengers teams and had a big falling out in the Inhumans Graphic Novel.
If claremont didn't write it, it didn't happen. Hell, it might not have happened even if he did write it.

[quillero]

LOL.

I wonder if that last panel is supposed to be a meta-comment at us?

[Pixie_Solanas]

Say what you will about the script, but the pencil work in Corrections #10 is absolutely GORGEOUS. Best art in any book this week, by far.

[coveredinbees]

LOL.

I wonder if that last panel is supposed to be a meta-comment at us?
"Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha?"

[worstblogever]

If claremont didn't write it, it didn't happen. Hell, it might not have happened even if he did write it.

I know. X-Men Forever #10 would be the landmark issue where he gave up trying to acknowledge any continuity, including his own on this series. There were slip-ups on other issues on the series, (there's around a half-dozen in this issue alone) but now, it's clear this should just be considered Marvel-Earth-161- "What if Chris Claremont Was the Beyonder and Makes It Up As He Goes?"

[ZNOP]

the reason Rachel doesn't appear is because she doesn't exist in the Forever universe. Claremont is going with his "Rachel is unique among the multiverse and has no alternate reality selves" idea and only exists in the 616 universe, even though that idea has been disproven already with several alternate reality stories.

Wasn't that assumption based on "Cross Time Capers"? Can you list the storyarc(s) and or title/issue(s) were you/we have seen alternate versions of Rachel?

[mythog]

For those wondering why Jubilee didn't appear, CC commented on another board.


Dear Jubilee:
Echo of what I said above -- what's asked for in plot doesn't always make it to the pencils, no matter how much the writer might wish. One has to trust the instinct and discression of the penciler. I'm disappointed, too, but on the other hand, Paul's art is just so lovely, it's something you accept, deal with and move on. Hopefully, I/we'll get another chance to showcase her down the road, Mark willing. I'll certainly give it my best shot.

Cordially,

Chris Claremont

[worstblogever]

For those wondering why Jubilee didn't appear, CC commented on another board.

So... it's the penciler's fault he couldn't draw Jubilee at Wolverine's funeral? What the hell kind of an answer was that?

[nightw1ng]

Wasn't that assumption based on "Cross Time Capers"? Can you list the storyarc(s) and or title/issue(s) were you/we have seen alternate versions of Rachel?i don't know exact issue numbers, but there have been several alternate rachel's. claremont alone wrote one in X-Men: The End. other rachel's also include ones who married franklin richards in the future. in one FF storyline, rachel and franklin produced a child that became the villain Hyperstorm. in an Exiles storyline, they produced another child who also grew up to be evil. on the T-O/Legacy virus earth, the Exiles met another Rachel. there have also been a few different Rachel's that have made cameos or background appearances in various Exiles and What if? storylines.

[Pixie_Solanas]

So... it's the penciler's fault he couldn't draw Jubilee at Wolverine's funeral? What the hell kind of an answer was that?

Is CC throwing Paul Smith under the bus? NOT COOL.

And if it was an artistic decision not to include that snotrag, then I love PMS even more (if that's humanly possible).

[Home made ectoplasm]

So... it's the penciler's fault he couldn't draw Jubilee at Wolverine's funeral? What the hell kind of an answer was that?

A straightforward one. Apparently CC wrote her in a crowd scene in the script, but it didn't get drawn. Not that Paul Smith couldn't draw, just that he didn't.

[nightw1ng]

So... it's the penciler's fault he couldn't draw Jubilee at Wolverine's funeral? What the hell kind of an answer was that?
sounds like Claremont is passing the blame. it looks like he left it up to Paul Smith to determine who would show up at the funeral and probably assumed Paul would draw in Jubilee. obviously, Claremont should know his fans are going to be sticklers with continuity, so he should have put in more effort by explicitly telling Smith who should show up at the funeral.

[worstblogever]

A straightforward one. Apparently CC wrote her in a crowd scene in the script, but it didn't get drawn. Not that Paul Smith couldn't draw, just that he didn't.

I agree with Agent_Torpor. That is weak, to throw the artist under the bus like that. I guess since there's no editorial interference to lay blame at the feet of, it'll just be the artists, then.

[Pixie_Solanas]

I agree with Agent_Torpor. That is weak, to throw the artist under the bus like that. I guess since there's no editorial interference to lay blame at the feet of, it'll just be the artists, then.

Esp. for something as ridiculously insignificant as Jubilee in a crowd. BFD, Claremont.

Paul Smith is giving your book more class and style than it deserves.

[mortari]

B est xbook out there now.

I finally got my hands on the alpha issue cheap. Had not read it in a long time.

Jim Lee's art was really sketchy and poor. Really took away from the story.

[RolandJP]

B est xbook out there now.

I finally got my hands on the alpha issue cheap. Had not read it in a long time.

Jim Lee's art was really sketchy and poor. Really took away from the story.

Wolverine's death and funeral = best twist in a comic since Xorn.

[Filthy Mutie]

Jim Lee's art was really sketchy and poor. Really took away from the story.

Uh. What? Really?

[crimsondiablo]

Oh man, I remember when this book was first announced and I dissed all over it saying there's no way Claremont would go in the direction the book would have gone in from #3. I remember taking flak from a few users who were on the Forever bandwagon, and lo and behold, Im glad I stuck to my gut and stayed away from this one. I feel bad for you guys, I do. I've hated everything Claremont has wrote since the early 90's. And it was clear in his few X-projects since his ideas have gone awry and whack. I loved how in Xmen: The End he tried simply meshing Morrison's run and his own and ignoring all others and I felt I hated that the most. Im still calling my vote on Cassandra Nova showing up as the big baddie at the end and the revelation that this was Claremonts plan all along, Morrison was just a fucking super genuis for thinking up a character Claremont would have created.

[RolandJP]

Oh man, I remember when this book was first announced and I dissed all over it saying there's no way Claremont would go in the direction the book would have gone in from #3. I remember taking flak from a few users who were on the Forever bandwagon, and lo and behold, Im glad I stuck to my gut and stayed away from this one. I feel bad for you guys, I do. I've hated everything Claremont has wrote since the early 90's.

Even the Death of the Grey's??

[crimsondiablo]

Even the Death of the Grey's??

You take it Im a Grey-hater? Im a loyal Scott and Jean fan.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Uh. What? Really?

I've got to agree, Jim Lee art does nada for me. Major turnoff.

[RolandJP]

You take it Im a Grey-hater? Im a loyal Scott and Jean fan.


No. I didnt mean it that way. I was just asking if you liked the death of grey story line.

[crimsondiablo]

No. I didnt mean it that way. I was just asking if you liked the death of grey story line.

Not really, All his modern stuff ignores other writers arcs at the time, and has a convulted air to it. I loved his oringal run, I have up to the Phoenix Saga in trade, and consider the man the defining X-writer, but his current stuff feels like he should be treated like "King Claremont" and does as he pleases.

[crimsondiablo]

I've got to agree, Jim Lee art does nada for me. Major turnoff.

Just how big he drew people. I enjoy the ultra detailed style he has, and noone can really copy his style. The industry of the 90's artists killed Lee's wonderful art style by having super huge heroes and lots of pouches.

[TJKernan]

funny, silly, non-sensical series...

while I will always cherish the original stuff he did in the good old days, and I really wanted to like this series, it is just....uh...bad. silly, comical bad.

but it sure does get the people talking, aye?

[Godlike13]

I don't care what the comic says, thats not Jean Grey. The willowy, weeping, weak woman in X-Men Forever bears no resemblance to the strong willed, second only to Xavier in power Jean Grey that existed for decades.

Exactly one of the reasons it just doesn't do it for me. I like that shes alive but the ways hes portraying her is just bad. Its not the Jean Grey i wanna read.

[Optic Rage!]

Wolverine's death and funeral = best twist in a comic since Xorn.

LMFAOOOOOOOO

You are killing me.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Jubilee's in the coffin, not Logan.

[worstblogever]

Jubilee's in the coffin, not Logan.

Isn't she too tall to fit in a coffin built for Wolverine?

[Pixie_Solanas]

Isn't she too tall to fit in a coffin built for Wolverine?

I thought they were on level footing, height-wise. I'll need corroboration.

[RolandJP]

LMFAOOOOOOOO

You are killing me.

I am a shameless CC supporter. What can I say.

[rwsmith]

I thought they were on level footing, height-wise. I'll need corroboration.

I think Logan is taller than Jubilee, but since he's rarely drawn as looking 5'3" I could be wrong about that. Always figured she was about 5'.

[Somebody]

I think Logan is taller than Jubilee, but since he's rarely drawn as looking 5'3" I could be wrong about that. Always figured she was about 5'.

She's meant to be 5'5" (Although, of course, very few artists bother with even relative heights)

[S'Cipio_66]

sounds like Claremont is passing the blame. it looks like he left it up to Paul Smith to determine who would show up at the funeral and probably assumed Paul would draw in Jubilee. obviously, Claremont should know his fans are going to be sticklers with continuity, so he should have put in more effort by explicitly telling Smith who should show up at the funeral.

You're assuming he didn't, with nothing to base that assumption on. That's sloppy reasoning.

Claremont says he asked for her and didn't get her. Well, at least he was there, so I have to give him the edge in believability.

This wouldn't be the first time an artist drew something other than what the author asked for, and it certainly won't be the last. (There will never be a last time.)

And while we are on the subject, everyone who hasn't seen it should go watch Monty Pthon's last supper sketch. :wink:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4oKXagF3IE

-S'Cipio

[S'Cipio_66]

What a load of SHITE.

As if CC would REALLY kill Wolverine back in 91, at the height of the X-Men's popularity? Get rid of the biggest star? And did he actually retire Cyclops in this issue? Yeah, an X-Men book without Cyclops & Wolverine in the 90's? Yeah, sure.

It's been long, long, looooong established that he wanted to do both of these in the 80's. You are right that it couldn't have happened back then, though, since editorial shot it down. (Though back then even CC was only pushing to leave Wolverine dead for a year.)

I don't think people are looking at the last scene carefully enough, however. Much as I'd love to get to see Cyclops raise his son properly, and avoid the whole Cable mess of a story, I don't think that's going to happen. People ask why is his son there, but I also ask why is his father there? It makes no sense for Corsair to be around at all. And why make this the "cliffhanger" page of your issue? And why is the title of the next issue called Sap Trap?

I suspect something very wrong is going on here. Someone is likely messing with Cyclop's head.

-S'Cipio

[S'Cipio_66]

Also reviewing the funeral attendees and it's odd that Crystal and Quicksilver attend together. They were separated in 1991, when this comic came out. Not fully divorced, but they were serving on opposite Avengers teams and had a big falling out in the Inhumans Graphic Novel.

It's a bloody funeral, mate. I went to the funeral for someone close to both myself and an ex I parted on *very* bad terms with. Any other day we'd have spat on each other. That day we hugged and cried and rode in from the airport together. It was like we'd never parted.

The day was for WOLVERINE, not for anyone else. All attendees recognized that. (Except Sabretooth, who at least had the decency not to show up when he couldn't keep himself in check.)

This was one of the most humanizing X-Men stories I've read in a long time. The emotion was well conveyed to the page, the O5 were perfect together, and Cyclop's eulogy was excellent. I also think the whole effect was greatly enhanced by making the funeral take place several issues and an entire story after the death. Given the guest list Logan's funeral had to have, the delay built in some seperation that kept the emotion real and prevented the whole thing from devolving into comic book camp.

-S'Cipio

[darknessatnoon]

And why is the title of the next issue called Sap Trap?

-S'Cipio

I have no idea but I doubt it has anything to do with anything. CC is just writing Cyclops out of the comic. This wasn't Wolverine's funeral. It was Cyclops's.

[Flâneur]

It's been long, long, looooong established that he wanted to do both of these in the 80's. You are right that it couldn't have happened back then, though, since editorial shot it down. (Though back then even CC was only pushing to leave Wolverine dead for a year.)

I don't think people are looking at the last scene carefully enough, however. Much as I'd love to get to see Cyclops raise his son properly, and avoid the whole Cable mess of a story, I don't think that's going to happen. People ask why is his son there, but I also ask why is his father there? It makes no sense for Corsair to be around at all. And why make this the "cliffhanger" page of your issue? And why is the title of the next issue called Sap Trap?

I suspect something very wrong is going on here. Someone is likely messing with Cyclop's head.

-S'Cipio
We know this makes no sense. That's the problem.

You're assuming he didn't, with nothing to base that assumption on. That's sloppy reasoning.

Claremont says he asked for her and didn't get her. Well, at least he was there, so I have to give him the edge in believability.

This wouldn't be the first time an artist drew something other than what the author asked for, and it certainly won't be the last. (There will never be a last time.)

-S'Cipio
So CC wrote _character beats_ for Jubilee which the artist ignored? With dialogue and interaction, dismissed?

[RolandJP]

It's a bloody funeral, mate. I went to the funeral for someone close to both myself and an ex I parted on *very* bad terms with. Any other day we'd have spat on each other. That day we hugged and cried and rode in from the airport together. It was like we'd never parted.

The day was for WOLVERINE, not for anyone else. All attendees recognized that. (Except Sabretooth, who at least had the decency not to show up when he couldn't keep himself in check.)

This was one of the most humanizing X-Men stories I've read in a long time. The emotion was well conveyed to the page, the O5 were perfect together, and Cyclop's eulogy was excellent. I also think the whole effect was greatly enhanced by making the funeral take place several issues and an entire story after the death. Given the guest list Logan's funeral had to have, the delay built in some seperation that kept the emotion real and prevented the whole thing from devolving into comic book camp.

-S'Cipio

I happen to agree. More emotion was shown in this issue for one character dying than all of Genosha's dead.

[S'Cipio_66]

I don't think people are looking at the last scene carefully enough, however. Much as I'd love to get to see Cyclops raise his son properly, and avoid the whole Cable mess of a story, I don't think that's going to happen. People ask why is his son there, but I also ask why is his father there? It makes no sense for Corsair to be around at all. And why make this the "cliffhanger" page of your issue? And why is the title of the next issue called Snap Trap?

I suspect something very wrong is going on here. Someone is likely messing with Cyclop's head.

We know this makes no sense. That's the problem.


We'll have to come back in an issue or two and see if this is a problem. I'm still betting on mental meddling.

The problem is, you've decided Claremont is "trolling the fans" and immediately taking everything that isn't straightforward as a retcon or an insult. If this were any other X-Book and Scot came home to find baby Rachel screaming, "Hi, daddy!" from Emma's lap with Corsair looking on, you'd be wondering who was meddling too.


So CC wrote _character beats_ for Jubilee which the artist ignored? With dialogue and interaction, dismissed?

One of the two men actually involved says that's how it happened. The absence or appearance of Jubilee as no affect upon the story,and Claremont already has Betsy on Excaliber right out front. He has no reason to make this story up about Jubilee. Unless the artist someday says different, cynicism is the only reason to doubt this story.

-S'Cipio

[donsey]

I enjoyed the issue. I thought Scott would be taking a break, since he was maybe the only regular character that didn't get a costume update in the preliminary Forever art, or all of those early covers that didn't seem to match up with the interiors. I thought his narrative throughout was nice, except for the cheesiness over his love triangle with Logan and Jean. Personally, I enjoy a more narrative approach with plenty of boxes to read through, which I feel was lacking in earlier issues, and am glad to see more of this type of writing in the more recent ones. I especially enjoyed the eulogy and the final page.

The interactions between the O5 were nice as well, though I agree with previous posters that Jean was too weepy for my liking. The whole Jean-Logan connection, while understandable, just didn't get any substantial build up. Speaking of odd connections, am I off to not understand Kitty and Betsy being beasties? Betts came along right around the Mutant Massacre, after which Kitty got shipped off. If there was anything outside of Uncanny regarding these two, however, I wouldn't know.

I need more Kurt, Rogue and Ororo (pet peeve - I don't like everyone calling her 'Ro, I always associate that nickname with Wolverine). I'm over Sabertooth already.

I liked the art, I thought Paul Smith's work looked better than his previous Forever issue (which I still thought was nice), though the finished product just seems to be more angular than necessary (if it's his style that has changed) or intended (if it's Austin's inks). I think he draws Cyclops especially well. Smith's original run on Uncanny is a personal favorite of mine, the covers to Uncanny 165, 168 and 173 are still some of my favorite covers ever. I hope he gets to come back for future interim issues.

Looking forward to seeing some Russians!

[S'Cipio_66]

I don't care what the comic says, thats not Jean Grey. The willowy, weeping, weak woman in X-Men Forever bears no resemblance to the strong willed, second only to Xavier in power Jean Grey that existed for decades.

Be fair, now. This has nothing to do with strength or weakness. This has to do with death. Death gets glossed over a lot in comics. Death gets glossed over a lot in all fiction.

But in the real world when death jumps up and bites you, you don't get to gloss it over. It won't be pushed off or ignored. It's right there in your guts and it does not let go. That loved one is never coming back. EVER! You will never see them again.

I think death is holding the right sting in Forever, and Jean is being shown reacting to it appropriately given the feelings she has been established as having for him in this title.


And as much of a fan I am of a Logan/Jean relationship, they NEVER HAD ONE at any point. Jean and Logan were never "happy together" because they were never "together" to begin with.

This part I agree with. The Jean/Logan love was very compressed in this title. I wish Claremont had taken a few arcs to build that up in front of the readers before revealing it to the other characters, but I understand that he needed to establish his direction quickly so he could get his new story going. I put up with continual decompression in lots of other titles. I'm not going to complain about a bit of useful compression in this one to kick things off.

-S'Cipio

[Flâneur]

We'll have to come back in an issue or two and see if this is a problem. I'm still betting on mental meddling.

The problem is, you've decided Claremont is "trolling the fans" and immediately taking everything that isn't straightforward as a retcon or an insult. If this were any other X-Book and Scot came home to find baby Rachel screaming, "Hi, daddy!" from Emma's lap with Corsair looking on, you'd be wondering who was meddling too.
I'd think, in a dishonestly marketed book by a (burnt out) writer who is pretty much recreating continuity as he will that a scene with Rachel (a pet character who would have been born if it weren't for the editors) squealing would also be a sign of idiocy. Claremont has no good faith anymore.

One of the two men actually involved says that's how it happened. The absence or appearance of Jubilee as no affect upon the story,and Claremont already has Betsy on Excaliber right out front. He has no reason to make this story up about Jubilee. Unless the artist someday says different, cynicism is the only reason to doubt this story.

-S'Cipio
See, then there'd be empty panels or page problems or dialogue given to the wrong characters. There isn't. Everything is full of word bubbles so none of the pages were images invented to fill something in unless you are saying Paul Smith invented dialogue as well?

It's also a very serious accusation that Chris Claremont is leveling at Paul Smith. If Paul Smith is supposedly ignoring plot lines and creating his own stuff then he's going beyond the scope of his job which is unprofessional. There's no real evidence on the page that any of this occurred so CC's statement veers on the libelous.

[aim33]

Ummm....I like the feel of this issue. I just don't understand the Wolvie/Jean thing going on. Like, I think they're doing this just so it can make Scott seem less of a dick with his affair with Emma.

And..umm...I am confused about the last page.

That is all.

And..umm...it's been probably a full year since I've posted here. I just don't like X-Men comics in general anymore.

[S'Cipio_66]

I'd think, in a dishonestly marketed book by a (burnt out) writer who is pretty much recreating continuity as he will that a scene with Rachel (a pet character who would have been born if it weren't for the editors) squealing would also be a sign of idiocy. Claremont has no good faith anymore.

You're still stuck on the Claremont and Forever hate. I said if this scene happened in any *other* X-book (that is, not written by Claremont) you'd be wondering who was meddling. Like, if it was the ending scene of the next issue of Legacy written by Carey next month.


See, then there'd be empty panels or page problems or dialogue given to the wrong characters. There isn't. Everything is full of word bubbles so none of the pages were images invented to fill something in unless you are saying Paul Smith invented dialogue as well?

Was she even supposed to have lines? I just got the impression she was supposed to be in a crowd scene.

In any event, it doesn't matter. There would be no empty panels or page problems, because Smith only draws what he draws, using his artistic instinct. He doesn't leave empty holes in a panel for characters he's decided don't fit the picture. Nor does he draw pictures he doesn't like and then simply erase parts until he likes them.

-S'Cipio

[Flâneur]

You're still stuck on the Claremont and Forever hate. I said if this scene happened in any *other* X-book (that is, not written by Claremont) you'd be wondering who was meddling. Like, if it was the ending scene of the next issue of Legacy written by Carey next month.
Because, like I said, I don't hold good faith in Claremont. If it were a writer that I had faith in to coherently follow through with it then I would. I don't. That's pretty evident.

I think my opinion is also pretty valid since CC confirmed that this is able to happen since the Askani timeline doesn't exist. Not due to mind meddling. Not next issue, either.

The reveal of Nathan was huge to me. Even bigger than the funeral. Nice to see Corsair also.

Does this mean that Mother Asanki was able to cure him of the TO infection and returned him, though he'd aged a few years in the future?

I might tend to presume that the alternate supposition is more appropriate: namely because she doesn't exist. Bear in mind, she's totally post my-run and therefore far outside the purview of this series.

Or maybe Chris took a page from the 'Adventures of Cyclops and Jean' storyline and they sent a clone back to Scott.

Same rationale as above. Not a part of this structural reality. End of story.

At least this means Cable is most certainly not Nathan in this version of the timeline. But Chris can't just drop this huge reveal of Baby Nathan being alive and not deal with the story behind it soon. So hopefully we're not kept waiting too long for it.

Line forms at the left -- but there are a few arcs ahead of it on the line. We'll just have to keep our collective fingers crossed and hope for the best (never losing sight of the concluding half of that little Mel Brooks epigram).

Was she even supposed to have lines? I just got the impression she was supposed to be in a crowd scene.

In any event, it doesn't matter. There would be no empty panels or page problems, because Smith only draws what he draws, using his artistic instinct. He doesn't leave empty holes in a panel for characters he's decided don't fit the picture. Nor does he draw pictures he doesn't like and then simply erase parts until he likes them.

-S'Cipio
Yes, her and Wolverine's mother were in the plot to be showcased but Claremont blames this not happening on Paul Smith:

But hey, no appearance by Wolverine's Mother like you teased? Or was that just a joke.

No joke, just the dynamics of penciler story-telling. What's called for in the plot doesn't always make it onto the page, one trusts to the discression and instincts of the penciller.

so funny that Jubilee doesn't show up to her best friend/father figure's funeral.

Dear Jubilee:

Echo of what I said above -- what's asked for in plot doesn't always make it to the pencils, no matter how much the writer might wish. One has to trust the instinct and discression of the penciler. I'm disappointed, too, but on the other hand, Paul's art is just so lovely, it's something you accept, deal with and move on. Hopefully, I/we'll get another chance to showcase her down the road, Mark willing. I'll certainly give it my best shot.

Cordially,

Chris Claremont

[S'Cipio_66]

I think my opinion is also pretty valid since CC confirmed that this is able to happen since the Askani timeline doesn't exist.

I might tend to presume that the alternate supposition is more appropriate: namely because she doesn't exist. Bear in mind, she's totally post my-run and therefore far outside the purview of this series.



I stand corrected.

I had forgotten that the Mother Askani story happened after Claremont. Unless I'm mistaken, though, Claremont was still around when Cyclops gave up his sone to the future to save him from the TO virus, so there is still a story to be told here as to how he got back.

-S'Cipio

[ZNOP]

Is Emma Frost in this book?

[g33kymonkey]

I don't care what the comic says, thats not Jean Grey. The willowy, weeping, weak woman in X-Men Forever bears no resemblance to the strong willed, second only to Xavier in power Jean Grey that existed for decades.

And as much of a fan I am of a Logan/Jean relationship, they NEVER HAD ONE at any point. Jean and Logan were never "happy together" because they were never "together" to begin with.

I’m a little bothered with this idea too. XMF is supposed to be CC’s version of all things X, starting from 1991. From what I remember, any kind of Jean/Logan romance didn’t really get established until after CC left the series. In fact, wasn’t it Morrison that fleshed out that whole concept?

I really don’t understand how Claremont continues to get work. His writing has been horrible for awhile now. Also, you would thing the editing staff at Marvel would look at his recent track record: every book he’s been attached to in the past few years has been canceled. X-Treme X-men, shut down. New Excalibur, he took over and it tanked. New Exiles, again, he took over and it sucked. When he came back to Marvel, they gave him Uncanny X-Men, and that didn’t go over so well.

Anyway, this idea of continuing as if he never left the X-Men has already been done. GeNEXT and X-Men: The End are both his versions of things from a 1991 origin.

I just don’t have the stomach for his writing these days. Like someone else on here said, CC’s dialogue is very goofy. Also, “his version of things” really blows. A lot of what these characters do are… out of character! I feel very strongly that Wolverine is used too much in the Marvel universe, but in way does that mean kill him off!

I just wish Marvel would stop stroking Claremont’s ego, stop giving him a gig.

[aim33]

Is Emma Frost in this book?

Lol, no, she isn't.

[g33kymonkey]

I just don't like X-Men comics in general anymore.

Have you tried X-Men: Legacy? That book has been great ever since Carey has been writing it. You can tell he knows these characters and really cares for them.

Uncanny X-Men is good, but could be a lot better. There’s a lot of potential wasted in the background characters though.

The opening of the newest story arc of Astonishing X-Men was great, much better than the previous arc, Ghost Boxes.

[Slung]

Have you tried X-Men: Legacy? That book has been great ever since Carey has been writing it. You can tell he knows these characters and really cares for them.

Legacy has been good, but I personally find Acuna's art stiff and think Carey was doing better work when he first started his run.

Uncanny X-Men is good, but could be a lot better. There’s a lot of potential wasted in the background characters though.

I will respectfully disagree. Uncanny X-Men is awful.

Best X-book out there has to be X-Force followed by X-Factor followed by New Mutants.

And Forever is ridiculous. I enjoy Jean being around, but the book is pretty terrible. I'm not sure which is worse, Uncanny or Forever.

[ZNOP]

Lol, no, she isn't.

Just checking:evilsmile: Thanks:smile:

[pariah-1972]

I thought the last issue was the best one yet, but this one was kind of dull.

Noone seems to have said anything about the artwork which i think looked really minimal and basic and was probably very rushed.

I think they should have had the funeral earlier when the impact of Wolverine being dead was still on peoples minds, cause i honestly thought Claremont was just gonna sweep it under the rug and move on.

[beto]

I think X-Men Forever is interesting because we get to see what Chris Claremont wanted to do with the X-Men in 1991. What I want to know is if what has happened so far and what will happen in the future issues is exactly what Claremont plotted in his notes back in 1991, or did he change his mind about doing certain things. For example, was killing off Wolverine something he had in mind in 1991 or was that something he thought of in the years after leaving.

And I don't think there is anything wrong with Claremont doing whatever he wants with the book. I think it's funny the original poster is so pissed Claremont doesn't care about what has happened since he left. He obviously would've done things differently than the long line of writers that succeeded him. That's the whole point of the book: How would things have gone if Claremont had stayed for several more years. What would he have done.

[BrightestDay]

I’m a little bothered with this idea too. XMF is supposed to be CC’s version of all things X, starting from 1991. From what I remember, any kind of Jean/Logan romance didn’t really get established until after CC left the series. In fact, wasn’t it Morrison that fleshed out that whole concept?

I really don’t understand how Claremont continues to get work. His writing has been horrible for awhile now. Also, you would thing the editing staff at Marvel would look at his recent track record: every book he’s been attached to in the past few years has been canceled. X-Treme X-men, shut down. New Excalibur, he took over and it tanked. New Exiles, again, he took over and it sucked. When he came back to Marvel, they gave him Uncanny X-Men, and that didn’t go over so well.

Anyway, this idea of continuing as if he never left the X-Men has already been done. GeNEXT and X-Men: The End are both his versions of things from a 1991 origin.

I just don’t have the stomach for his writing these days. Like someone else on here said, CC’s dialogue is very goofy. Also, “his version of things” really blows. A lot of what these characters do are… out of character! I feel very strongly that Wolverine is used too much in the Marvel universe, but in way does that mean kill him off!

I just wish Marvel would stop stroking Claremont’s ego, stop giving him a gig.

Agreed. I've been pretty uninterested in this title since the terrible first issue (the art is the only redeeming thing), but I'll comment here because I can't help myself.

The Jean/Logan ship, despite its many supporters in fandom, has never actually happened at any point from what I recall. Their entire "relationship" is basically a mutual attraction of sorts initially (equal parts physical and wanting to stick it to Cyclops for Logan and I guess the appeal of a hurt puppy for Jean), followed by years of either them being close friends with an occasional "moment" or her being dead. It's always been incredibly forced. Which is why I don't buy their relationship in XMF for a second, no matter how CC tries to sell it.

CC is a total hack/burn out at this point and he should have taken a cue from a lot of other classic writers and left well enough alone. The only thing this title ever had going for it, IMO, is Jean being alive and he's basically torpedoed that with his crap characterization and story developments.

This title was an intriguing idea that fell apart as soon as CC put pen to paper and TBH if this is seriously where he was taking the X-Men I think we should all be thankful it didn't happen. XMF is garbage and CC should DIAF.

[pariah-1972]

I think X-Men Forever is interesting because we get to see what Chris Claremont wanted to do with the X-Men in 1991. What I want to know is if what has happened so far and what will happen in the future issues is exactly what Claremont plotted in his notes back in 1991, or did he change his mind about doing certain things. For example, was killing off Wolverine something he had in mind in 1991 or was that something he thought of in the years after leaving.

And I don't think there is anything wrong with Claremont doing whatever he wants with the book. I think it's funny the original poster is so pissed Claremont doesn't care about what has happened since he left. He obviously would've done things differently than the long line of writers that succeeded him. That's the whole point of the book: How would things have gone if Claremont had stayed for several more years. What would he have done.I think we can safely assume that he would not have been allowed to kill off Wolverine permanently but maybe he had plans to kill him off for a year and bring him back like they are doing with Cap.

[Jake V]

I think we can safely assume that he would not have been allowed to kill off Wolverine permanently but maybe he had plans to kill him off for a year and bring him back like they are doing with Cap.
Not while Larry Hama was writing a successful Wolverine solo series.

[Sean Whitmore]

Not while Larry Hama was writing a successful Wolverine solo series.

With Silvestri on art, no less.

"Hey Larry, Marc, Chris wants to kill off Wolverine for a while. You two just vamp for the next six months."


SEAN

[deathsatan]

criticizing claremont is one thing, but to the person who said "I wish they'd stop giving him gigs..."

To hope for someone to lose their job is just terrible. His job isn't an imposition on you. don't like it, don't buy it.

And I'm not saying that to shut up discussion of his writing, I'm saying that to shut up discussion about how you feel he should be out of a job. Jeez.

[Leirus]

I’m a little bothered with this idea too. XMF is supposed to be CC’s version of all things X, starting from 1991. From what I remember, any kind of Jean/Logan romance didn’t really get established until after CC left the series. In fact, wasn’t it Morrison that fleshed out that whole concept?


What? No! How many X-men comics have you read? The Jean/Logan romance has been there nearly since second genesis. It was already retconned to the first nigt of Wolverine in Westchester in an X-Men classic, and it was hinted in comic as early as the transformation of Jean in Phoenix, the first time around, when Logan (then a grumpy looner) goes to the hospital with flowers to Jean. Their atraction and the Jean/Cyclops/Wolverine triangle is one of the classic plot soap points in the series, and has been there in each version of the characters (Evolution, TAS, Ultimate, etc...) So no, definetly not Morrison.

[Sean Whitmore]

criticizing claremont is one thing, but to the person who said "I wish they'd stop giving him gigs..."

To hope for someone to lose their job is just terrible. His job isn't an imposition on you. don't like it, don't buy it.

I actually agree.

Wanting him off a series you were already reading makes sense, but wanting him off a series that is focused like a friggin' LASER at his own diehard fans just seems petty.


SEAN

[Flâneur]

What? No! How many X-men comics have you read? The Jean/Logan romance has been there nearly since second genesis. It was already retconned to the first nigt of Wolverine in Westchester in an X-Men classic, and it was hinted in comic as early as the transformation of Jean in Phoenix, the first time around, when Logan (then a grumpy looner) goes to the hospital with flowers to Jean. Their atraction and the Jean/Cyclops/Wolverine triangle is one of the classic plot soap points in the series, and has been there in each version of the characters (Evolution, TAS, Ultimate, etc...) So no, definetly not Morrison.

It's actually been more in TAS and Evolution, which is to be expected given the nature of children's serial. That aside, there was only Jean's time as the Phoenix and one forced kiss from Wolverine during Inferno which established this 'triangle'. Remember that Jean was either dead or believed dead for most of Wolverine's tenure under Claremont.

[Leirus]

It's actually been more in TAS and Evolution, which is to be expected given the nature of children's serial. That aside, there was only Jean's time as the Phoenix and one forced kiss from Wolverine during Inferno which established this 'triangle'. Remember that Jean was either dead or believed dead for most of Wolverine's tenure under Claremont.

Ah, but that is taking into account the Phoenix-Cocoon mess/retcon...

At any rate, Wolverine in love with Jean has been always there. Remember when he sniffed her at Sara´s burned home and went crazy, bitchslaping poor Storm just because...

[Flâneur]

Ah, but that is taking into account the Phoenix-Cocoon mess/retcon...

At any rate, Wolverine in love with Jean has been always there. Remember when he sniffed her at Sara´s burned home and went crazy, bitchslaping poor Storm just because...

Not really. He had no idea she was alive until Inferno, Madelyne had prevented the X-men from finding out so that's the time between the Dark Phoenix Saga and Inferno where they did not communicate at all under any definition. After Inferno (with the forced kiss) they went their separate ways and didn't meet again until after the disbanding of the Australian team.

Jean did have moments of attraction to Wolverine during the original Phoenix period but otherwise it's mainly cartoons and movies which made people read the 90s in a very specific way. There's just as much material for Storm and Kurt as there is for Jean and Wolverine which is why Claremont implying that Wolverine and Jean were already in a serious relationship by '91 is problematic.

[Leirus]

Not really. He had no idea she was alive until Inferno, Madelyne had prevented the X-men from finding out so that's the time between the Dark Phoenix Saga and Inferno where they did not communicate at all under any definition. After Inferno (with the forced kiss) they went their separate ways and didn't meet again until after the disbanding of the Australian team.

Jean did have moments of attraction to Wolverine during the original Phoenix period but otherwise it's mainly cartoons and movies which made people read the 90s in a very specific way. There's just as much material for Storm and Kurt as there is for Jean and Wolverine which is why Claremont implying that Wolverine and Jean were already in a serious relationship by '91 is problematic.

Between Storm and Kurt? Not, there is not. not at all. Claremont is not precissely known for his subtetly, I invite you to count the times this interchange took place: Jean going bombastic and Logan saying "Ey, redhead, you are the right kind of girl for me" cue to Jean thinking "I know Logan, I wish I were not". We were hammered to death with that. When She "died" the first time, Logan says "Redhead, I had plans for you and me"

In the Mutant Massacre and Logan stated he had sniffed "The woman he loved"

Also, the development in X-Tinction Agenda (X-Factor 61...)

http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/x-factor/61-1.jpg

When they shared "A moment of pasion" while in Jail in Genosha.

So no, this precisse thing is not out of the blue...

[nikbackm]

Don't forget Classic X-Men #1.

Apparently Jean left the team when ANAD X-Men started up since she was afraid she'd give into her attraction to Wolverine.

[Flâneur]

Between Storm and Kurt? Not, there is not. not at all. Claremont is not precissely known for his subtetly, I invite you to count the times this interchange took place: Jean going bombastic and Logan saying "Ey, redhead, you are the right kind of girl for me" cue to Jean thinking "I know Logan, I wish I were not". We were hammered to death with that. When She "died" the first time, Logan says "Redhead, I had plans for you and me"

In the Mutant Massacre and Logan stated he had sniffed "The woman he loved"

Also, the development in X-Tinction Agenda (X-Factor 61...)

http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/x-factor/61-1.jpg

When they shared "A moment of pasion" while in Jail in Genosha.

So no, this precisse thing is not out of the blue...

So you're saying they were in a relationship? I'm not talking about being horny around each other, which I acknowledge, I'm talking a full blown relationship which was supposedly implied after the disbanding in Australia but before X-men #1. The cartoons and movie built the Logan and Jean thing into way more than it was in the comics.

You also realise X-Tinction Agenda doesn't exist in this continuity, right?

[darknessatnoon]

Jean hardly knew him and most of what she knew came from the memories of the Phoenix which were never as vivid as her own.

[Leirus]

Jean hardly knew him and most of what she knew came from the memories of the Phoenix which were never as vivid as her own.

Then why did she rape him in Genosha?

[Leirus]

So you're saying they were in a relationship? I'm not talking about being horny around each other, which I acknowledge, I'm talking a full blown relationship which was supposedly implied after the disbanding in Australia but before X-men #1. The cartoons and movie built the Logan and Jean thing into way more than it was in the comics.

You also realise X-Tinction Agenda doesn't exist in this continuity, right?

Why not? Muir Saga was after X-Tinction Agenda, after all... I do not really get what is supposed to be included and what not. I do not say they were in a relationship, but that their mutual attraction was, in my view, enough aknowledged as to make them planning to start one a credible possibility.

[Sean Whitmore]

You also realise X-Tinction Agenda doesn't exist in this continuity, right?

It doesn't?

Jesus, the premise of this book changes every day. I think at the moment it's "What if Claremont hadn't left the X-Men in 1991...and started doing stories he never would have been allowed to do back then...and also had a time machine so he could go back and change stuff prior to 91."


SEAN

[RolandJP]

With Silvestri on art, no less.

"Hey Larry, Marc, Chris wants to kill off Wolverine for a while. You two just vamp for the next six months."


SEAN

OR like the current Captain America or Hulk--ahem I mean Hercules, Have Sabretooth take over the title for a year.

[Flâneur]

Why not? Muir Saga was after X-Tinction Agenda, after all... I do not really get what is supposed to be included and what not. I do not say they were in a relationship, but that their mutual attraction was, in my view, enough aknowledged as to make them planning to start one a credible possibility.

It doesn't?

Jesus, the premise of this book changes every day. I think at the moment it's "What if Claremont hadn't left the X-Men in 1991...and started doing stories he never would have been allowed to do back then...and also had a time machine so he could go back and change stuff prior to 91."


SEAN
I know. It doesn't really make sense. He's trying to burn the candle at both ends by re-envisioning continuity into his own new world but also claiming this is a true continuation.

[darknessatnoon]

Then why did she rape him in Genosha?

She gave him a pity kiss. Even at the time, it seemed meaningless.

[Leirus]

She gave him a pity kiss. Even at the time, it seemed meaningless.

Nope, sorry, If the jail wardens raped Rogue, as has been said thousands of times here, then Jean and Wolverine had sex, even if pity sex.

They were not teenagers anymore.

[darknessatnoon]

Nope, sorry, If the jail wardens raped Rogue, as has been said thousands of times here, then Jean and Wolverine had sex, even if pity sex.

They were not teenagers anymore.

There's a difference between prison rape and between having sex in a cell where it's 100% certain that Cameron Hodge has a security camera taping you. Jean hasn't had public sex since she was the Black Queen.

[Leirus]

There's a difference between prison rape and between having sex in a cell where it's 100% certain that Cameron Hodge has a security camera taping you. Jean hasn't had public sex since she was the Black Queen.

http://www.granhermano.telecinco.es/imgsed/edredoning0509212.jpg

I am sure it was one of the TopHits on Genosha TV...

[MartinRedmond]

Loved it! I liked that Scott turned up to be a real man, respecting his parental obligations. Continuity freaks going nuts, blowing a fuse over all the changes is just icing on the cake.

Jean and Wolverine went right up to tongues everytime they met, Scott and Jean were the dullest couple on earth in X-Factor. It was obvious the flame was gone. Wait, is this a soap opera forum?

As for Claremont being at the mercy of his artist, that's true for any writers. I'm not gonna name names, but as much as I love Bachalo, when paired up with Chris or Mike Carey he is pure gold. When paired up with some others, the art still rocks, but it doesn't get me as excited. I can also easily skip Peter David and Carey when I find the art dull. Anyway, those writers talent is that when they have a good artist with them, they find them the most interesting things to draw and they use them to their full potential.

[mortari]

Wolverine's death and funeral = best twist in a comic since Xorn.

It was so sketchy
Hard to tell which way the action went.
He's much better now

[Blade X]

Unlike many of today's primadonna writers who write full script, CC and other old school writers don't insist that the artist stick strictly to their full script.

[Jake V]

Unlike many of today's primadonna writers who write full script, CC and other old school writers don't insist that the artist stick strictly to their full script.

And that clearly worked out SO WELL for him.

[Sean Whitmore]

Yeah, those primadonnas!

Expecting the stuff they put in the script to actually appear in the comic. The gall, the sheer, unmitigated gall!


SEAN

[Optic Rage!]

Unlike many of today's primadonna writers who write full script, CC and other old school writers don't insist that the artist stick strictly to their full script.

Er, what? Such a ______ comment.

You are so LOL.

[MartinRedmond]

Chris cocredits the artist too.

[Jake V]

Chris cocredits the artist too.

So he puts some of the blame on the artist? That sly devil.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Yeah, those primadonnas!

Expecting the stuff they put in the script to actually appear in the comic. The gall, the sheer, unmitigated gall!


SEAN

Frankly, there should be some give and take on both sides, as part of a true artistic partnership. Don't dictate every line stroke, and don't take too much liberty with the script as written.

[MartinRedmond]

Paul Smith forgot to draw a few background characters from 20 years ago, Chris handed in his script trusting that it would be okay and the editor hasn't got 3 decades of continuity memorized by heart. Or perhaps they noticed the mistake and knowing how slow Paul is and that Terry Austin doesn't have a computer, decided to just go with it to get the book out on time. Is it the end of the world?

[darknessatnoon]

Paul Smith forgot to draw a few background characters from 20 years ago, Chris handed in his script trusting that it would be okay and the editor hasn't got 3 decades of continuity memorized by heart. Or perhaps they noticed the mistake and knowing how slow Paul is and that Terry Austin doesn't have a computer, decided to just go with it to get the book out on time. Is it the end of the world?

Jubilee was not a "background character," but I am sick of reading people complain about her absence since even when she was front and center she didn't matter.

[MartinRedmond]

Perhaps Jubilee's been reunited with grandparents overseas in between the muir island saga. Who knows?

[S'Cipio_66]

You also realise X-Tinction Agenda doesn't exist in this continuity, right?

Why do you say this? We've already seen the X-Tinction Agenda referenced in the first issue of Forever.

When dead-at-60 was revealed, the X-Men realize that this is how the Genoshans managed to control a large population of Mutates: by working them hard and burning them out.

It was the X-Tinction Agenda that introduced us to life in Genosha and brought the X-Men to invade the island.

-S'Cipio

[Filthy Mutie]

Perhaps Jubilee's been reunited with grandparents overseas in between the muir island saga. Who knows?

This is true, but only because she walked-in on Jean giving Logan a pity HJ* and the sacred cow sent her away. It was kind of weird for everyone.

*Off-panel in X-Men #273! - Bob

[Blade X]

And that clearly worked out SO WELL for him.

Yes it has for both CC and Marvel back in the day. The sales of his first run is proof of that.

[Blade X]

Yeah, those primadonnas!

Expecting the stuff they put in the script to actually appear in the comic. The gall, the sheer, unmitigated gall!


SEAN

According to Byrne, writers (especially those who have no artistic skills) need to realize that what they ASK to be drawn and what CAN be drawn by the artist in order to make the story work best and flow nicel, are two different things (or something like that).

[darknessatnoon]

No double-posting, please. Next time use the "edit" function if you have a thought to add, Blade X.

[Flâneur]

Why do you say this? We've already seen the X-Tinction Agenda referenced in the first issue of Forever.

When dead-at-60 was revealed, the X-Men realize that this is how the Genoshans managed to control a large population of Mutates: by working them hard and burning them out.

It was the X-Tinction Agenda that introduced us to life in Genosha and brought the X-Men to invade the island.

-S'Cipio
And it was equally ignored with Cable not existing and Rahne having a human form. This is not the 'continuation' this is Claremont doing whatever he wants and that's fine, I suppose, except when he's marketing it as a 'continuation'.

According to Byrne, writers (especially those who have no artistic skills) need to realize that what they ASK to be drawn and what CAN be drawn by the artist in order to make the story work best and flow nicel, are two different things (or something like that).

I agree. Jubilee is a complex masterpiece beyond Paul Smith's skill.

[Blade X]

No double-posting, please. Next time use the "edit" function if you have a thought to add, Blade X.

I apollogize. I'm typing this from my PS3 (because my computer is on the fritz) and not all of the boards functions properly work on the 40 gig PS3.