X-men: Forever #10 (aka 'X-Men: Corrections') w/SPOILERS

[darknessatnoon]

I apollogize. I'm typing this from my PS3 (because my computer is on the fritz) and not all of the boards functions properly work on the 40 gig PS3.

Oh, I was kidding around, BX, to break some of the tension in here. I just want us all to enjoy the comic and stop arguing!

[Home made ectoplasm]

This Jubilee gripe is ridiculous! You people are being way unreasonable. You do know that Claremont writes the plot first, that gets supplied to the artist, and then he writes the script after he sees what they have drawn?

Seriously, I think some of you people have absolutely no concept of how comics are produced.

[darknessatnoon]

This Jubilee gripe is ridiculous! You people are being way unreasonable. You do know that Claremont writes the plot first, that gets supplied to the artist, and then he writes the script after he sees what they have drawn?

Seriously, I think some of you people have absolutely no concept of how comics are produced.

Who needs to see Jubilee chewing gum and popping bubbles at a funeral anyway? I can't even imagine anyone telling a good story about Jubilee in mourning.

[Blade X]

I agree. Jubilee is a complex masterpiece beyond Paul Smith's skill.

You're missing my point. Smith probaly didn't include Jubilee because there wasn't enough room to include everything CC asked for in the script.

[Filthy Mutie]

You're missing my point. Smith probaly didn't include Jubilee because there wasn't enough room to include everything CC asked for in the script.

In terms of the extremely heavy-handed eulogy needing to share room with her incessant rambling and old-British-man-as-Valley-Girl slang?

[Flâneur]

You're missing my point. Smith probaly didn't include Jubilee because there wasn't enough room to include everything CC asked for in the script.
Are you saying his 'showcase' of Jubilee was corrected from the comic without his permission?

[Sean Whitmore]

Not having read the issue yet, there's only so far I'm willing to wade into the Jubilee thing.

I just find it funny that when the writer is, in his own words, disappointed that something he wrote didn't make it into the artwork, it's being lauded as a "return to the good ol' days!" or somesuch nonsense.


SEAN

[Blade X]

Are you saying his 'showcase' of Jubilee was corrected from the comic without his permission?

Less of a correction and more of a case of not being included due to artistic reasons in order to tell the best story possible.

[Blade X]

Not having read the issue yet, there's only so far I'm willing to wade into the Jubilee thing.

I just find it funny that when the writer is, in his own words, disappointed that something he wrote didn't make it into the artwork, it's being lauded as a "return to the good ol' days!" or somesuch nonsense.


SEAN

This was SOP back in the days at Marvel. The writer and artist are equal collaborators when it comes to the story. CC might have been disapointed that not everything in his script was included, but he's certainly not mad at Smith for not including thoes parts. He realizes that there has to be some give and take when comes to working Marvel style.

[S'Cipio_66]

And it was equally ignored with Cable not existing and Rahne having a human form. This is not the 'continuation' this is Claremont doing whatever he wants and that's fine, I suppose, except when he's marketing it as a 'continuation'.

Cable and Nathan were not the same person in X-Tinction Agenda. That story element didn't come along until a couple of years later, after Claremont was gone. There is no reason for him to follow that storyline in Forever if he doesn't want to.

Rahne looks human in this issue, but so does Warren. Beast even makes a joke about it when Warren greets him. If Warran can use a holographic projector to look human, so can Rahne.

The only "glitch" from X-Tinction Agenda that I'm worried about is 'Ro/Storm. Why 'Ro is back, and is the Storm that betrayed the team and killed Wolverine the same adult Storm that left Genosha with the X-Men?

Since an upcoming issue is going to show us the adult Storm again, I'm sure this question is going to be dealt with.

-S'Cipio

[RolandJP]

Not having read the issue yet, there's only so far I'm willing to wade into the Jubilee thing.

I just find it funny that when the writer is, in his own words, disappointed that something he wrote didn't make it into the artwork, it's being lauded as a "return to the good ol' days!" or somesuch nonsense.


SEAN


You know after some thought, I was struck by how a malicious nudge can turn an honest negative review into a negative campaign. It can influence.

Have you ever been to the movies and hated a film..not because the film was bad..but because the audience made the experience a trial? Then when you watched the movie on DVD at home or a second time in a different theater the film seemed better.

I'm getting the same vibe with XMF. CC does have his story tics and style, but rereading X-men #1-3 Jim lee and the current run of XMF they are in essence the same . I enjoyed XMF #10 more the second time I read it--after the hype and the criticism washed away. Scott in a father role is such a contrast with 616 continuity its refreshing. As well as Death having a consequence. Each life that passes away is cherished.

[Sean Whitmore]

Have you ever been to the movies and hated a film..not because the film was bad..but because the audience made the experience a trial?

I've been in too bad a mood to enjoy a movie/show/song before, sure. But I wouldn't say I ever thought one of them was bad due to outside influences.



I'm getting the same vibe with XMF. CC does have his story tics and style, but rereading X-men #1-3 Jim lee and the current run of XMF they are in essence the same.

I waaaaaaaaaaay disagree.

I even like XMF, in the same quaint sort of way I can enjoy a First Class comic. But frankly, neither of them are very good at aping the atmosphere of the period they're playing in.


SEAN

[RolandJP]

I've been in too bad a mood to enjoy a movie/show/song before, sure. But I wouldn't say I ever thought one of them was bad due to outside influences.




I waaaaaaaaaaay disagree.

I even like XMF, in the same quaint sort of way I can enjoy a First Class comic. But frankly, neither of them are very good at aping the atmosphere of the period they're playing in.


SEAN

Reeeespect.

Just my 2 cents.

[tlp0708]

Between Storm and Kurt? Not, there is not. not at all. Claremont is not precissely known for his subtetly, I invite you to count the times this interchange took place: Jean going bombastic and Logan saying "Ey, redhead, you are the right kind of girl for me" cue to Jean thinking "I know Logan, I wish I were not". We were hammered to death with that. When She "died" the first time, Logan says "Redhead, I had plans for you and me"

In the Mutant Massacre and Logan stated he had sniffed "The woman he loved"

Also, the development in X-Tinction Agenda (X-Factor 61...)

When they shared "A moment of pasion" while in Jail in Genosha.

So no, this precisse thing is not out of the blue...

I think we need Slung to clear this up. I don't remember much about the Jean/Logan hints. In Inferno, Logan kissed her and she pushed him away. To me, it always seemed that it was one-sided. Each time Logan flirted with Jean, she brushed him off. I haven't read X-Tinction in quite awhile; I'll have to go back that.

And why would X-Tinction not be part of CC's continuity? X-Cutioner's, obviously, but X-Tinction?

[MartinRedmond]

I'm glad Logan's finally dead and buried. Let us all pray further issues won't be :"If only Wolverine could see me now, that I could match his prowess." "Gosh! I sure miss Wolverine!"

All that's missing is for Storm to electrocute Sabertooth and Kitty swiftly.

[Flâneur]

I think it's pretty gross that Jean was attracted to Wolverine, but I can live with it. I'm just glad there were no scenes like Psylocke and Sabertooth in New Exiles. Anyway, he's finally dead and buried. Let us all pray further issues won't be :"If only Wolverine could see me now, that I could match his prowess." "Gosh! I sure miss Wolverine!" Let the man rest in peace please, Chris.

I would not be surprised if there were a Sabretooth/Jean romance coming up as they connect over their mutual loss and succumb to the passionate beasts within. Or something like that.

[crimsondiablo]

I would not be surprised if there were a Sabretooth/Jean romance coming up as they connect over their mutual loss and succumb to the passionate beasts within. Or something like that.

Claremont's written Jean as the team whore in every project he'd had in the past 10 years, why not continue his tradition? Its sad to see the man who defined the characters be the one who loses all the grasp of them.

[tlp0708]

I would not be surprised if there were a Sabretooth/Jean romance coming up as they connect over their mutual loss and succumb to the passionate beasts within. Or something like that.

Please don't give him ideas, Flaneur!

[MartinRedmond]

I prefer xgoalkeepersama's idea!



I would like this very much! Do you think Jean can turn herself dinosaur like Rachel so they have someone who bite Sabretooth if he turns bad? ^_^

[RolandJP]

I prefer xgoalkeepersama's idea!




Awwwww I miss her. Where is that lil darlin?


Anyways. 2 high-points 4 me (dont know if its a coloring mistake--But Rahne with Primeval bleached white hair works)


http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u102/NoPrize/NewMutants-1.jpg


http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u102/NoPrize/XMF.jpg

[AcesX1X]

i want to know why that bashful forge has an egg swinging from his neck.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u102/NoPrize/XMF.jpg

[Filthy Mutie]

That tie is awful. And for for heaven's sake, Forge, button your jacket or loosen the collar.

Do you think Forge's outfit was in CC's script?

[ZNOP]

That tie is awful. And for for heaven's sake, Forge, button your jacket or loosen the collar.

Do you think Forge's outfit was in CC's script?

Why does forge look like a Latino? Is he blushing over what appears to be a teenager?

[Filthy Mutie]

Why does forge look like a Latino? Is he blushing over what appears to be a teenager?

I keep thinking it's a panel from an Archie comic where Jughead decides to grow a dirty adolescent mustache and ditch his crown.

[ZNOP]

I keep thinking it's a panel from an Archie comic where Jughead decides to grow a dirty adolescent mustache and ditch his crown.

LOL:evilsmile: I actually remember that, heh!

[tlp0708]

So is the Storm/Forge break-up in this continuity? I'm so confused.

[MartinRedmond]

The other X-Men probably filled him in on the situation prior meeting her, off panel. That easter themed lavender tie is nasty. It's the first thing I noticed when I saw that panel too.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Forge's tie is so fucking au courant, I just lost control of my bladder.

[RolandJP]

Straight men dont know how to dress. Its a scientific fact.

[pryde15]

Obviously the rule with the majority of comic book artists is that their fashion senses must be atleast one decade behind. Look at that shit Ro', channeling the late 90s furreal.

[RolandJP]

Obviously the rule with the majority of comic book artists is that their fashion senses must be atleast one decade behind. Look at that shit Ro', channeling the late 90s furreal.

yeah. Kids are wearing tight pants again too. Oh thats so 80's

[BBeeryan]

I never knew Forge to be a pedophile.

[pryde15]

yeah. Kids are wearing tight pants again too. Oh thats so 80's

LOL. I can not tell, I do not buy this series so I can only tell from what I see from the scans.

[crimsondiablo]

That tie is awful. And for for heaven's sake, Forge, button your jacket or loosen the collar.

Do you think Forge's outfit was in CC's script?

It had to have been, because if Claremont doesnt say what to draw specifically, the artist will leave it out just like Jubilee.

[RolandJP]

Reason #5 to like the issue. CC found a new way to show thought balloons without showing thought balloons. Good one!

[AcesX1X]

affinity would never allow that kind of crap to go on.

[RolandJP]

affinity would never allow that kind of crap to go on.

I wish Afffinity was hired to draw an issue of X-men forever.

[coveredinbees]

How old is little kid Storm? Why is she so concieted?

[pariah-1972]

How old is little kid Storm? Why is she so concieted?She's spoiled.
They give her too much ice cream.

[Slung]

I'm sad. This whole series is my fault completely (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=5552942&postcount=1), since it was my idea. It seemed brilliant when I thought of it, but it has mutated into something grotesque. The writing and art are both pretty awful all around. The fact that they call young Storm Lil 'Ro would be enough for me to hate this series, but on top of that we've got so many continuity errors (I thought continuity was a CC strong point) and truly abominable characterization that rivals that of Fractions' Uncanny in terms of sheer heinous-ness. This could have been something beautiful. It should have been. Marvel should have used my ENTIRE idea not just a kernel of it.

[Firemane]

With reguards to baby Nathan... Is it possible that it was Jim lees idea to send baby Nathan into the future in X factors Endgame arc and as a result Claremont is simply not using anything Lee had a hand in? Part of me is really wishing they would add a timeline of events showing where things actually divirged in Claremont's universe issue wise.for the X titles.

Part of me really wishes they would have just given Claremont the reigns with Ultimate X-men 1....

[Morlock50]

Flaneur wrote:
"You know, it really is a pity about the story, I mean, the dialogue is hokey and this just doesn't require a certain 'taste', it genuinely is poorly written but ... if you're an avid fan then you can pull the wool over your eyes and pretend if it was well plotted but it isn't."

I'm a huge Claremont fan, but I have to agree with this point. This book is missing the little dramatic beats that characterize his usual writing style, and too much is happening off panel or is unexplained.

I was really excited about this book when it first came out, and I enjoyed the first arc but the last 5 issues haven't been all that great. I'm currently reading Carey's Supernova Tpbk, and I'm thinking, Why spend $8 a month on Forever when I could be looking for back issues of X-men Legacy?

[niconico00]

So is Psylocke a member of Excalibur now, since Rachel doesn't exist in this reality?

Is she still trapped in Mojo world then?

[darknessatnoon]

Is she still trapped in Mojo world then?

No. She simply doesn't exist. CC has this line about 616 Rachel being unique in the multiverse and there being no alternate reality versions of her.

[Home made ectoplasm]

I'm sad. This whole series is my fault completely (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=5552942&postcount=1).

lol, how people change


Honestly, I doubt there'd be much interest in it. You'd be better off with letting him handle Marvel Adventures: X-Men. But since he likes continuity way too much, it would be a bit problematic. I think Exiles is the perfect match for him. It allows him to play with pretty much any characters he wants to. Even if his cast is particularly mutant focused, unlike any other comics... where there's almost no percieved shared universe in existance anymore... the Exiles can face and deal with anything. Fantastic Four, Avengers, Spider-Man, etc.

[niconico00]

No. She simply doesn't exist. CC has this line about 616 Rachel being unique in the multiverse and there being no alternate reality versions of her.

:confused:
So I guess I don't have a clear idea of what X-Men Forever is...
I thought that CC was picking up from when he left, and at that time Rachel Summers had been a member of the X-Men, though she disappeared in the Body Shoppe after Wolverine stabbed her for trying to kill Selene.
So is CC going to retcon the past of his retcon?

Please, can someone clear my mind?!

[Home made ectoplasm]

:confused:
So I guess I don't have a clear idea of what X-Men Forever is...
I thought that CC was picking up from when he left, and at that time Rachel Summers had been a member of the X-Men, though she disappeared in the Body Shoppe after Wolverine stabbed her for trying to kill Selene.
So is CC going to retcon the past of his retcon?

Please, can someone clear my mind?!

Rachel exists in 616 and only 616 - she is unique in the multiverse

The Forever Universe is 161 - therefore CC has decided he will not be using her, because by his own rules she doesn't exist in this universe

[darknessatnoon]

:confused:
So I guess I don't have a clear idea of what X-Men Forever is...
I thought that CC was picking up from when he left, and at that time Rachel Summers had been a member of the X-Men, though she disappeared in the Body Shoppe after Wolverine stabbed her for trying to kill Selene.
So is CC going to retcon the past of his retcon?

Please, can someone clear my mind?!

Given that we saw that Psylocke was a member of Excalibur in this issue which she never was in 616, I think Betsy is retroactively replacing Rachel Summers in a lot of stories. And while Kitty and Betsy had some psychic intimacy in X-Men Vs. The Fantastic Four, I have a feeling that the events of X-Men: True Friends are also being retconned with Betsy instead of Rachel, further explaining the reference to True Friends this issue as well as helping to explain what appears to us to be a "sudden" friendship between her and Kitty.

[RolandJP]

Let me get this straight. prior to XMF..CC was maligned for sticking to and or having continuity tics that got on readers nerves. repetitive story-lines and such.


Fast Forward: Now he is being maligned for not following or staying rigid with continuity. just so that I have the criticism correct.

[darknessatnoon]

Let me get this straight. prior to XMF..CC was maligned for sticking to and or having continuity tics that got on readers nerves. repetitive story-lines and such.


Fast Forward: Now he is being maligned for not following or staying rigid with continuity. just so that I have the criticism correct.

Let me get this straight: You're playing dumb, right?

A repetitive story-line (such as possession and teammates fighting teammates) is not adhering to continuity; it's having no new ideas. Now, in this case, CC doesn't deserve blame. He's been pretty up front in interviews and Q&As since Forever was announced about Rachel not existing in this reality. I consider it a tacit admission that creating her in the first place was a mistake.

[RolandJP]

Let me get this straight: You're playing dumb, right?

A repetitive story-line (such as possession and teammates fighting teammates) is not adhering to continuity; it's having no new ideas. Now, in this case, CC doesn't deserve blame. He's been pretty up front in interviews and Q&As since Forever was announced about Rachel not existing in this reality. I consider it a tacit admission that creating her in the first place was a mistake.

Well one could argue about me playing dumb. I just wanted to know what it was specifically about XMF that readers didnt like. Saying writing sux is a broad stroke.

Hopefully CC or someone close to him will pass word. hint hint Stephan

[niconico00]

Given that we saw that Psylocke was a member of Excalibur in this issue which she never was in 616, I think Betsy is retroactively replacing Rachel Summers in a lot of stories. And while Kitty and Betsy had some psychic intimacy in X-Men Vs. The Fantastic Four, I have a feeling that the events of X-Men: True Friends are also being retconned with Betsy instead of Rachel, further explaining the reference to True Friends this issue as well as helping to explain what appears to us to be a "sudden" friendship between her and Kitty.

Okay, at least this makes sense. I hope this series turns out to be really great, 'cause Claremont was my favourite X-writer

[darknessatnoon]

Well one could argue about me playing dumb. I just wanted to know what it was specifically about XMF that readers didnt like. Saying writing sux is a broad stroke.



Oh, right! Because the complaints haven't had any level of specificity to them. Gotcha!

[RolandJP]

Oh, right! Because the complaints haven't had any level of specificity to them. Gotcha!

I contextualized my post with that half-truth so you would post a retort. I never get tired of your avatar.

[Stephane Garrelie]

Well one could argue about me playing dumb. I just wanted to know what it was specifically about XMF that readers didnt like. Saying writing sux is a broad stroke.

Hopefully CC or someone close to him will pass word. hint hint Stephan

:smile:I'm a fan of his work and a mod at comixfan, but to conclude of this that i am close to Claremont would be not just excessive but simply wrong.
I am, like you, a fan amongst others; I happen to contribute to a site where he posts, but that's all.
It is true he asked me a while back to convey some posts he did as an answer to things that were said here, but if he asked me rather than someone else, i think it was simply by courtesy given i was the thread starter.:smile:
All the rest exists only in the minds of you folks and is fantasy.

[Anodyne]

Rachel exists in 616 and only 616 - she is unique in the multiverse

The Forever Universe is 161 - therefore CC has decided he will not be using her, because by his own rules she doesn't exist in this universe
Claremont said this at Comixfan < http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?t=46581&page=12 >:
Re Rachel -- she is very much a part of this continuum, she's just not around right now. That happened from time to time as I recall in "Excalibur." Ideally, she'll be back when readers least expect it and much fun will be had by all.
IIRC the Excalibur team concluded that 616 Rachel was unique because they hadn't encountered any other version of her during the Cross-time Caper. But they didn't visit every possible reality in the Multiverse. Besides, if alternate realities in the MU are created when one timeline diverges from another, isn't it possible that the 161 timeline did not yet exist when the Cross-time Caper occurred?

[RolandJP]

:smile:I'm a fan of his work and a mod at comixfan, but to conclude of this that i am close to Claremont would be not just excessive but simply wrong.
I am, like you, a fan amongst others; I happen to contribute to a site where he posts, but that's all.
It is true he asked me a while back to convey some posts he did as an answer to things that were said here, but if he asked me rather than someone else, i think it was simply by courtesy given i was the thread starter.:smile:
All the rest exists only in the minds of you folks and is fantasy.

My bad.


I didnt mean to imply you were joined at the hip to CC. Just that If some critiques were heeded more readers would be inclined to pick up the book. I am a MAJOR CC fan.

[niconico00]

Claremont said this at Comixfan < http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?t=46581&page=12 >:
IIRC the Excalibur team concluded that 616 Rachel was unique because they hadn't encountered any other version of her during the Cross-time Caper. But they didn't visit every possible reality in the Multiverse. Besides, if alternate realities in the MU are created when one timeline diverges from another, isn't it possible that the 161 timeline did not yet exist when the Cross-time Caper occurred?

Okay, so CC himself said that Rachel is gonna be part of Forever...
Good, I wonder what he will come up with:tongue:

[Pixie_Solanas]

Okay, so CC himself said that Rachel is gonna be part of Forever...
Good, I wonder what he will come up with:tongue:

More pratfalls and slapstick comedy. Falling down those stairs was pure gold.

oboy.

[niconico00]

More pratfalls and slapstick comedy. Falling down those stairs was pure gold.

oboy.

I think I remember the issue you are referring to...
But when I think about CC and Rachel, I always remember the Excalibur years or even when she was wearing that weird gym outfit
http://uncannyxmen.net/images/costume/rachel-bigcostume2.jpg

[Goshin]

Wow, I got banned on my 1000th post by raising hell and defending X-Men Forever....

And it was worth it too...

;)

[Home made ectoplasm]

Welcome back Goshin

[Goshin]

Hahaha thx....

Celebrating a thousand posts by finally changing my avatar pic to another fave moment of mine.

.....And ill defend X-Men Forever and X-Factor to death, no matter how many times I get banned

[kk1]

I've finally given up on Forever. What started out as a "continuation" from 1991 has turned into CC totally rewriting X-history to suit his whims. Something I wouldn't mind if it had been advertised that way, but it wasn't. The art has also been a HUGE disappointment. I thought Wolverine's funeral would be a great payoff of guest appearances and we didn't even get the people CC promised months ago (his mom and Jubilee). I'm tired of waiting for this to get reved up and good, 10 issues was more than enough and it's stayed at the same level of medocrity. I'm glad some of you enjoy it, maybe I'll try again if something changes but I don't see that happening.

[Goshin]

Where was Jubilee during X-Men 1-3?

[ZNOP]

I thought Wolverine's funeral would be a great payoff of guest appearances and we didn't even get the people CC promised months ago (his mom and Jubilee). I'm tired of waiting for this to get reved up and good, 10 issues was more than enough and it's stayed at the same level of medocrity. I'm glad some of you enjoy it, maybe I'll try again if something changes but I don't see that happening.

Who's mom?!? Logan's mom:confused: Didn't he shish-kabob her back in the mid-1800's

[deathsatan]

I'm over it not connecting from x-men 3. I was over that the minute lil ro did not remember her time at the x mansion. It was lil Ro who had that great harry's hideaway chat with Jean before x-tinction agenda. She was there and knew everyone. This is... different in a big way. And I don't think we're going to connect the dots anytime soon. Unless the Consortium has something to do with the Nanny and the Right.... But I'm not holding my breath.

I'm over the fact that I remember Madripoor, Matsuo, Jubilee and Psylock, X-Tinction Agenda etc... better than Claremont does.

I just want Claremont writing a tight team of x-men and giving them the voices I grew up with. I want seeds planted next issue to bear fruit in issue 63. I want this vision of these characters to congeal into a solid foundation for years of plotting. I am the biggest Claremont fan in the world. This book is targeted at me and makes marvel enough money to pay Claremont and that's about it. Don't begrudge him his job or me my enjoyment.

This is the Claremont verse. If Jim Lee rammed certain plot points through, they won't show up here. It it can be internally consistent with itself and give me some long term development I will be happy.

And the art this issue was completely beautiful.

[Filthy Mutie]

Where was Jubilee during X-Men 1-3?

At the mall eating chili fries.

[Harold Sotomayor]

I was over that the minute lil ro did not remember her time at the x mansion.

I'm over the fact that I remember Madripoor, Matsuo, Jubilee and Psylock, X-Tinction Agenda etc... better than Claremont does.

This is the Claremont verse. If Jim Lee rammed certain plot points through, they won't show up here.

1. That is correct, "lil' Ro" doesn't have her memories anymore and that imposter Storm obviously does. Do you really think that was an oversight?

2. I strongly doubt that you do. There have been no slips.

3. Everything pre-cut off is in except for the Shadow King story. A LOT can happen in that to make it all work.

[RolandJP]

At the mall eating chili fries.

I look forward to jubilee's first heart attack.


kiddin of course.

[darknessatnoon]

1. That is correct, "lil' Ro" doesn't have her memories anymore and that imposter Storm obviously does. Do you really think that was an oversight?

2. I strongly doubt that you do. There have been no slips.

3. Everything pre-cut off is in except for the Shadow King story. A LOT can happen in that to make it all work.

The implication is that Storm was always a traitor. Lil 'Ro is a new clone.

[Anodyne]

The implication is that Storm was always a traitor. Lil 'Ro is a new clone.
At least that would be a new twist: making the original Ororo evil and the clone good. :cool: But "always a traitor"? :eek: I'd rather learn what led a good person to turn bad.

[AcesX1X]

At least that would be a new twist: making the original evil and the clone good. :evilsmile: But "always a traitor"? I'd rather learn what led a good person to turn bad.

anodyne, do you think it had to do with inferno? OR, do you think inferno actually happened?

[darknessatnoon]

At least that would be a new twist: making the original Ororo evil and the clone good. :cool: But "always a traitor"? :eek: I'd rather learn what led a good person to turn bad.

Storm was never good. She was always putting on an act to mislead the X-Men. Basically, she's been spying on them for the Consortium.

I see you still search the forum for the word "clone."

[Anodyne]

anodyne, do you think it had to do with inferno? OR, do you think inferno actually happened?
Claremont has said at Comixfan (but unfortunately not in the book :frown: ) that Jean's change of heart about Scott and Logan had to do with her having Madelyne's memories of Scott's betrayal; so I'd guess that Inferno did happen in the 161.

Did Ororo willingly join the Consortium, or did they corrupt her into becoming Perfect Storm? And why?:confused: We'll have to wait and see.

D@N: I don't search for the word "clone"; I search for "Madelyne," "Maddie," and all their misspellings. :evilsmile: :tongue:

[MartinRedmond]

I think it's cool that you search the forum for the words clone and Madelyne, Anodyne. :smile:


Claremont has said at Comixfan (but unfortunately not in the book :frown: ) that Jean's change of heart about Scott and Logan had to do with her having Madelyne's memories of Scott's betrayal; so I'd guess that Inferno did happen in the 161.


Their couple wasn't that great, from what I remember TWENTY YEARS AGO. So it's no surprise to me their broken up. I thought their marriage seemed fake anyway. I always found Chris' work more fun if you just roll with it instead of resisting. *shrugs* As long as Jean doesn't end up banging Sabertooth, I'm on!

[darknessatnoon]

Claremont has said at Comixfan (but unfortunately not in the book :frown: ) that Jean's change of heart about Scott and Logan had to do with her having Madelyne's memories of Scott's betrayal; so I'd guess that Inferno did happen in the 161.



Does she also have memories of cheating on Scott with his brother? I wonder if that influenced her decision?




Their couple wasn't that great, from what I remember TWENTY YEARS AGO. I always found Chris' work more fun if you just roll with it instead of resisting. *shrugs*

BORG

[MartinRedmond]

What's a BORG? :confused:

[darknessatnoon]

What's a BORG? :confused:

How do you spell "google" in French?

[BBeeryan]

Storm is gonna wreck shop. I'm glad she's gettin som more shine in the X-books. Too bad it aint canon. Still good though. Storm will own the whole team.

[Flâneur]

Does she also have memories of cheating on Scott with his brother? I wonder if that influenced her decision?

Jean is free and easy, she would experience no conflict when recalling the times she pegged Alex in Australia.

[darknessatnoon]

Jean is free and easy, she would experience no conflict when recalling the times she pegged Alex in Australia.

If he's her true love, how come Maddie/Jean never went for Wolverine during all their lonely, hot, Australian afternoons?

[MartinRedmond]

How do you spell "google" in French?

You mean, you don't know what it means either. Why should I do your research for you? Use words that you know next time.

[darknessatnoon]

You mean, you don't know what it means either. Why should I do your research for you? Use words that you know next time.

It means that you compared reading this book to date rape.


I always found Chris' work more fun if you just roll with it instead of resisting. *shrugs*

[Anodyne]

Does she also have memories of cheating on Scott with his brother? I wonder if that influenced her decision?
I think it was the other way 'round: Scott's betrayal influenced Madelyne's decision to have sex with Alex. I also think she and Alex felt a genuine attraction; why wouldn't Maddie be drawn to the man who gave her a shoulder to lean on when she needed it? If only he'd been there when the image of Scott with Jean was thrust in her face! I don't think Maddie would have seduced Alex without the demonic influence, but their feelings might have developed naturally. Or it might have been only a rebound moment for both of them.

EDIT: Oops! :redface: I thought you meant Maddie's decision.

If he's her true love, how come Maddie/Jean never went for Wolverine during all their lonely, hot, Australian afternoons?
Because Maddie wasn't Jean, any more than Stryfe was Cable.

[Nicoclaws]

How do you spell "google" in French?

With a real R, and without pronouncing the h.

oh, and put a "Sacrébleou" before and a "mon ami" afterwards. No you should sound classy in the salons.

[Flâneur]

Because Maddie wasn't Jean, any more than Stryfe was Cable.
I'm not sure Claremont agrees since he believes Madelyne is the part of Jean which loves Scott. We saw this in the End.

[Stephane Garrelie]

How do you spell "google" in French?

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j252/StephaneGarrelie/asterix09.gif

[Leirus]

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j252/StephaneGarrelie/asterix09.gif

Lol, good one...

[RolandJP]

If he's her true love, how come Maddie/Jean never went for Wolverine during all their lonely, hot, Australian afternoons?\

Even a mutant healing factor cant cure E.D.

[Slung]

\

Even a mutant healing factor cant cure E.D.

Psychological problems are nothing new for Wolverine.

Although you would think telekinesis would be a workable solution.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Did anyone even bother to notice that Claremont dropped a damned "No quarter given..."
in this gem of an issue?

And I chuckled at the Wolverine in full screamo mode behind Scott at the eulogy. lol.

[Anodyne]

I'm not sure Claremont agrees since he believes Madelyne is the part of Jean which loves Scott. We saw this in the End.
Madelyne became far more than that through her life experiences. I interpreted that scene as Maddie's willing surrender of her hard-earned individuality to save the man she loved. And as Claremont's attempt to let Scott off the hook for loving two woman.

[Harold Sotomayor]

The deal with Storm and 'Ro is probably that Storm was a clone created by the genegineer guy after the X-Men first razed Genosha. Said clone was then given 'Ro's adult memories when 'Ro was captured in Genosha. Storm left with the X-Men, 'Ro stayed behind as a Genoshan/Consortium captive.

'Ro has her childhood memories but not what was suppressed by Nanny and then stollen for Storm.

That's my best guess for now based on what we've seen.

[deathsatan]

1. That is correct, "lil' Ro" doesn't have her memories anymore and that imposter Storm obviously does. Do you really think that was an oversight?

2. I strongly doubt that you do. There have been no slips.

3. Everything pre-cut off is in except for the Shadow King story. A LOT can happen in that to make it all work.

but how is that possible?

The Storm that met Gambit in New Orleans was the Storm that met the rest of the x-men in X-tinction agenda and remembered them.

If she remembers Gambit, she remembers the x-men.

[ZNOP]

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j252/StephaneGarrelie/asterix09.gif

Damn, now I have to get up, get a handiwipe -- to clean up my coffee spill. You owe me .50¢ :wink:

[Morlock50]

The Dino-Rachel storyline looks pretty damn good compared to this. What the hell happened to CC? He used to be great.

[Goshin]

Lil 'Ro is an x-baby that escaped...

The real Storm is still powerless with a mohawk wandering Kenya

[Havok83]

how was it explained why Nathan is so old here and not in the future?

[Morlock50]

how was it explained why Nathan is so old here and not in the future?

It's not. It's a dangling plotline. Claremont's trying to retcon the story where Nate is sent to the future, so he can "correct" Scott's character. Next, we'll find out that he didn't marry Madelyne.

[Havok83]

It's not. It's a dangling plotline. Claremont's trying to retcon the story where Nate is sent to the future, so he can "correct" Scott's character. Next, we'll find out that he didn't marry Madelyne.
Isnt the premise of Forever supposed to be a What If CC hadnt stopped writing after X-men #3? Whats the point if he's not even respecting his own history

[Morlock50]

Isnt the premise of Forever supposed to be a What If CC hadnt stopped writing after X-men #3? Whats the point if he's not even respecting his own history

Exactly. And that's why everybody's commenting on this issue in particular, because it's obvious that CC isn't following the original set-up of this series. Claremont's writing this like it's Ultimate X-men. At this point, I think Claremont should completely step away from the X-franchise and try something new. Take a low selling title and try to energize it the way he did with X-men in '75. I still think he's a talented writer, but he needs to shake things up a little.

[darknessatnoon]

Isnt the premise of Forever supposed to be a What If CC hadnt stopped writing after X-men #3? Whats the point if he's not even respecting his own history

He only scripted that story. He didn't really plot it.

[Havok83]

He only scripted that story. He didn't really plot it.
still its canon and was a part of the history prior to his leaving. Its not only this but several other inconsitencies in this series which dont jive well with how he left the books in the early 90s

[darknessatnoon]

still its canon and was a part of the history prior to his leaving. Its not only this but several other inconsitencies in this series which dont jive well with how he left the books in the early 90s

It's the story how he wants it. His intentions override what was published. Love it or leave it.

[Havok83]

It's the story how he wants it. His intentions override what was published. Love it or leave it.
oh I already left it. Dropped this title weeks ago

[darknessatnoon]

oh I already left it. Dropped this title weeks ago

Your loss. Since CC had so little to do with X-Factor, I'd expect a lot of that to be up for grabs. Same with anything developed in New Mutants after left.

[Havok83]

Your loss. Since CC had so little to do with X-Factor, I'd expect a lot of that to be up for grabs. Same with anything developed in New Mutants after left.
not really. The title is absolutely dreadful. The worst X-related project that Marvel is pushing out. The only thing I lost when reading it was time

[Blade X]

how was it explained why Nathan is so old here and not in the future?

It's not, they just aged him up like they did both Franklin and Valaria in both FF and X-FACTOR.

[Firemane]

I'm assuming that anything Jim Lee went over CC's head on is being reworked or ignored and quite frankly I really do not believe that CC wanted Nathan to be Cable and so now he can go "Nope, not gonnna happen"

As a someone who has been reading X-men and comics in general since 1972 i find complaints about continuity ridiculous and in all honesty if your not even picking up the title why bitch about something YOU ARE NOT PAYING FOR. Move on, stay with the 30 mainstream x-titles and leave this one for those who enjoy it.

[S'Cipio_66]

Isnt the premise of Forever supposed to be a What If CC hadnt stopped writing after X-men #3? Whats the point if he's not even respecting his own history

We don't yet know why Nathan and Corsair were there, but we are all most likely asking the very questions CC planned for his readers to ask when he wrote this cliffhanger ending. If we hadn't all read stories about this all happening a different way, we'd all be speculating on this like we would any other title with a weird cliffhanger.

Nathan going to the future happened before Claremont left, but nothing else you know about Cyclps and Pheonix or Nathan/Cable/Stryfe did.

We'll have to wait and see what the story is for how Nathan got back, and why Corsair is on earth. Expect the two to be linked. (Unless this is all some vilanous mental game.)

-S'Cipio

[Flâneur]

We don't yet know why Nathan and Corsair were there, but we are all most likely asking the very questions CC planned for his readers to ask when he wrote this cliffhanger ending. If we hadn't all read stories about this all happening a different way, we'd all be speculating on this like we would any other title with a weird cliffhanger.

Nathan going to the future happened before Claremont left, but nothing else you know about Cyclps and Pheonix or Nathan/Cable/Stryfe did.

We'll have to wait and see what the story is for how Nathan got back, and why Corsair is on earth. Expect the two to be linked. (Unless this is all some vilanous mental game.)

-S'Cipio
It isn't as CC confirmed on comix-fan that this is 'real' and it's not meant to be a dangler either, he's genuinely writing Scott out.


As a someone who has been reading X-men and comics in general since 1972 i find complaints about continuity ridiculous

I'd usually agree except that CC marketed this based on the continuity and so deliberately ignoring what he set himself is shoddy writing/deceitful marketing.

[Harold Sotomayor]

I'd usually agree except that CC marketed this based on the continuity and so deliberately ignoring what he set himself is shoddy writing/deceitful marketing.

What exactly has he ignored thus far? Is the whole "Shadow King War" gap truely that difficult for you to grasp? Would you seriously prefer that X-Men # 1-3 and Forever take that terrible, rushed ending to the Shadow King stuff into account?

X-Men Forever takes place after X-Men # 1-3 but, as was stated way back when first announced, it discounts the post-Claremont Shadow King story. X-Men # 1-3 is not affected as it is pretty much a self-contained story. We know the lead up to the Shadow King stuff and the conclusion (X-Men # 1-3) and that's it. If Forever survives long enough, I am certain that we would eventually be treated to what happened.

What continuity has Claremont deliberately ignored? All the stuff that happened AFTER he left?

It seems to me that you, and many others on this forum, wanted Forever to be nothing more than reprints of the issues that came after Claremont first left. Are you so attached to the revelation that Nathan become Cable in the future that you are unable to accept a different, possibly much better, outcome?

X-Men # 1-3 does not feature any Avenger, Spider-man, X-Force, X-Factor 2, Excalibur, Power Pack, etc. You do not know what state any of those forces are in any more than I do. To state otherwise - to say that Claremont is wrong for featuring so and so character simply because you think you know what that character is up to - is presumtuous and flat out wrong.

In conclusion, sit back and enjoy the Forever ride. I can tell you have a very hard time letting go of the post-Claremont continuity. If you ever manage to do so you will find Forever to be a great read - one that returns comics to a time when events mattered.

[worstblogever]

What continuity has Claremont deliberately ignored? All the stuff that happened AFTER he left?


Go re-read this thread from the start. The first few pages make it pretty clear about the things that were glaring in issue #10 alone.

[Pixie_Solanas]

not really. The title is absolutely dreadful. The worst X-related project that Marvel is pushing out. The only thing I lost when reading it was time

I'll take the batshit insanity of X-Corrections over the mind-numbing mediocrity that is Zeb Wells' NM, vol. 2.

[08er]

This brings me back to my original theory: Chris Claremont hates what X-men has become and now he's trying to right some wrongs done to his characters. That doesn't necessarily make him wrong but damn it if it's not right. Chris Claremont is really acting like a baby with this if I can't have my characters than no one can attitude. It's bad enough he's giving Kitty this undeserved attention but to just about write some characters in bad lights and what i'm thinking is retconning some out of history, just stinks.

[Harold Sotomayor]

Hold on, hold on. Are you saying that you want X-Men Forever to eventually include Bishop, Bastion, and everybody else who was created after Claremont left?

How can a character deserve more/less attention?

[worstblogever]

Hold on, hold on. Are you saying that you want X-Men Forever to eventually include Bishop, Bastion, and everybody else who was created after Claremont left?

I'm not sure who this is directed to, but quote where anyone asked about those characters since your last post.

[jarrod]

What exactly has he ignored thus far?
Rachel's a bit of a sticking point, and though things have been mum on panel, off panel Claremont's said a variety of conflicting things regarding her.

From the sounds of it, he's ignoring basically *anything* he didn't write even pre-X-Men 1-3 barring X-Factor (Simonson/Liefield's New Mutants, Nicezia's Muir Island Saga finish, Hama's Wolverine, etc), but Rachel's still going to be a bit messy no matter what direction he takes. We know Excalibur existed in 161, but without Rachel, it actually wouldn't. Nevermind that she also inspired Farouk originally, meaning his obsession/conflict with the X-Men would've gone completely differently without the events of True Friends. Plus the stories involving Selene, Nimrod, Nathan, etc. We also know CC originally planned to not have Rachel in 161 at all owing to her crosstime "uniqueness", and while we've had some recent reverse commentary from him on that (simply saying Rachel is m.i.a.), I'm not really sure what to think.

[MartinRedmond]

Rachel's story is told. Chris has no real reason to bring her back unless he wants to. I vote Chris brings back dorky Kitty first.

Only one night's sleep until the next issue!!!

[RolandJP]

Rachel's story is told. Chris has no real reason to bring her back unless he wants to. I vote Chris brings back dorky Kitty first.

Only one night's sleep until the next issue!!!

I know. I am sooooooooooooo there.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Only one night's sleep until the next issue!!!

Sleep? I'm camped out at my lcs already, posting via 3G mobile wifi.

[Harold Sotomayor]

I'm not sure who this is directed to, but quote where anyone asked about those characters since your last post.

My post was directed to the one right above it. A simple read of both posts would have made that clear.

I can understand why people are having trouble with the Rachel thing based on that old Claremont quote about how Rachel is unique. However, he changed his mind about it (and rightfully so). Based on what Brian Braddock says in X-Men Forever #10 we can safely assume that Rachel is still in England with Meggan. If Rachel wasn't Brian would have specifically mentioned that Meggan sends her love (or whatever the line was).

The cut-off date for Forever's continuity is Uncanny X-Men #278, with X-Men #1-3 being the ONLY exception. That's not so hard to grasp, right?

[Morlock50]

My post was directed to the one right above it. A simple read of both posts would have made that clear.

I can understand why people are having trouble with the Rachel thing based on that old Claremont quote about how Rachel is unique. However, he changed his mind about it (and rightfully so). Based on what Brian Braddock says in X-Men Forever #10 we can safely assume that Rachel is still in England with Meggan. If Rachel wasn't Brian would have specifically mentioned that Meggan sends her love (or whatever the line was).

The cut-off date for Forever's continuity is Uncanny X-Men #278, with X-Men #1-3 being the ONLY exception. That's not so hard to grasp, right?

I've read a few interviews with claremont discussing Forever, and he never says that he'll play with other stories that occur before X-men #3. My understanding is that X-men #3 is the cutoff, so anything that occurred before this issue applies. What makes things more complicated is when the reader has to guess which of Jim Lee's plot ideas he's going to allow, or whether he will stick with story points that he did not personally write. I'm obviously not the only one who thought that Nathan running out of the cabin was weird, judging by the number of posts.

The bottom line is, if Claremont was writing kick-ass plots, I wouldn't even care. But everything he's doing feels recycled. Sabertooth hanging out in the mansion has been done before. Lil' Ro was one of Claremonts ideas. And Kittyrine reminds me of when she was running around with one of Logan's bone claws and acting all aggressive.

[RolandJP]

Sleep? I'm camped out at my lcs already, posting via 3G mobile wifi.

Its worth it.

I am writing a review for it later.

[tlp0708]

The cut-off date for Forever's continuity is Uncanny X-Men #278, with X-Men #1-3 being the ONLY exception. That's not so hard to grasp, right?

Wait, where was it said the cut-off Uncanny issue was 278? CC was still on Uncanny with 279 and the Uncanny/CC X-Men split occurred officially with Uncanny 281. So if anything, it should stop at 281.

[Lightningboltjs]

Sigh.

Cable existed prior to Claremont's departure in X-Men #3

Claremont plotted the issue of X-Factor where Cyclops sends baby Nate to the future.

This isn't "Claremont picking up where he left off in 1991" its Claremont giving the finger to everyone who ever enjoyed an X-Men comic after he left.


First of all Clarement didn't plot the X-factor issues where Nate got sent to the future he scripted them and that's probably why he's gotten rid of that plot because he never liked it. I LOVED that X-factor arc I thought it was one of the best parts of that era just before the Image X-odus, but I'm completly fine with CC undoing that plot for this series. X-men Forever is about what Claremont, the guy who built almost every part of the X-franchise that's dominated the world, would do if he could do whatever he wants. The X-men that came after Claremont were for the most part derivitive, commercialized junk. The series was never even CLOSE to the same after he left and it was just awful compared to what it was. If you became a fan of the X-men after Claremont I can see how you might like your disjointed, reboot happy, franchise of cartoon characters and hate Claremont bringing back a more mature artistic version of them. But seriously, to paraphrase Stewy Griffen, without CC the X-men are just wrong-sounding muppets. I can't enjoy them without him. I enjoy everything about this series and I will buy multiple copies of every single issue.

[Lightningboltjs]

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/6496/snapshot20091028172027.tif

It's a sad day for Chris Claremont, isn't it? To have fallen into such a situation and, after hearing his passive aggression (http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showpost.php?p=1508885&postcount=664) last week it's quite obvious to see how he feels about this.

All of this, however, has given me a brilliant new perspective on what X-men: Forever well and truly is. It's not simply a continuation of Chris Claremont's prior work as the absence of the Dark Wolverine Saga demonstrates but it is not the simple sniping one could construe from a work which inherently dismisses all other writer's stories as not real ('real' in the sense of a canon wanker on the net, at least). No, Claremont has, in the publication of X-men: Corrections, perfected trolling of the 'fans' to a fine art. Let us have a brief recap of what's happened so far:

Claremont trolls Wolverine fans by killing Wolverine in the very first issue.
Claremont trolls Psylocke fans by deporting her azn arse to Britain off panel.
Claremont trolls Scott/Jean shippers by having Jean in an open affair with Wolverine while married to Scott. Plot still ongoing.
After the extended battle with Sabretooth in issue 2, and the battle with Storm in issue 3, Claremont decides to troll Storm/Black Panther shippers by turning Storm into a lying duplicitous bitch who faked all feelings. The Storm/BP romance now never happened.
Claremont trolls Sage fans by having Kitty, the Jew, take on the visage and part of Afghani Sage but with extra claw.
Claremont trolls Fraction's endorsement of Namor, and his fans, by declaring that there were no old mutants, as all mutants were dying, burnt out by their powers. He also ends up trolling himself in the meanwhile.
Claremont trolls good sense by (failing in the effort of) building up Sentinels designed by a neo-Nazi who sounds like a David Bowie lyric pronounced with a broken jaw.

So, now that we're all caught up, let's turn to the latest issue, X-men:Forever #10:

Claremont ego strokes New Mutants fans with a brief appearance of these alumni (in-house advertising!) as they arrive to Wolverine's funeral (TROLL) along with the Avengers and the Fantastic Four.
Claremont trolls Forge fans (are there any?! Maybe he made a misstep) by having Forge experience a brief Lolita/pedophile moment regarding dwarf Ororo.
Claremont trolls Rachel Summers fans by having her not exist when Excalisuck comes to the funeral. Incidentally, Betsy appears with Excalisuck and shares a light headbutt with Kitty.
Claremont trolls Hulk fans by turning Bruce Banner into a delivery boy who thinks about how Hulk wasn't capable of helping Wolverine.
Claremont trolls all fans with any taste by referencing True Friends as the Queen sends a torque to the X-men for Wolverine's funeral.
Claremont then goes for the absolute double whammy, trolling both Scott/Jean shippers and Rachel Summers fans with ... aw, heck, I'll just post the page:
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/2151/snapshot20091028190532.tif

So yeah, Scott either has a second family which he didn't tell Jean about or faked the whole baby Nathan into the future thing and amidst all this family dramaz, Rachel still doesn't appear. HARSH.


You know, it really is a pity about the story, I mean, the dialogue is hokey and this just doesn't require a certain 'taste', it genuinely is poorly written but ... if you're an avid fan then you can pull the wool over your eyes and pretend if it was well plotted but it isn't. It simply plays to a Claremont following who want to read their own fan fiction validated by Claremont and it's an immense pity to see such great art wasted on that, and makes no mistake, the art is really good compared to previous issues but it's still such a waste.

Patient Diagnosis:

D - recommended only for explicit Claremont fans.

I thought this post was silly and uncalled for, but I thank its writer for introducing me to New Mutants Forever, which I really hope actually happens. I would like it more if it were in the same continuity as X-men Forever, which I think is the best thing marvel has done in decades, but I'll take it anyway I can get it. I don't think a lot of younger readers have any apreciation for how great the old New Mutants title was. Compare the character development in Claremont's run on NM to any of the several attempts to do another teen x-men series since then and you'll realize why Claremont's New Mutants are still iconic and nobody gives a shit about the Gen Next kids. Claremont is an all time great comics writer who can create characters with a soul that live forever. Nuff said.

Also I'd like to present a much more likely theory for what X-men "well and truly is." A few years ago Marvel had an online poll for what project x-men fans wanted CC to do next and there were several choices, one of which was him doing a limited series 10 years later comic where the "90s never happened." Another idea was CC doing a Days of the Future Past comic detailing the history of what happened to the X-men during it.

Well instead of those we got X-men the End and then the limited series he's doing with Generation X, which is X-men the end continuity.

X-men Forever is a combination of 'the 90s never happened" and Days of the future past. CC is going to the take these x-men to the brink of genocide, probably killing a lot of them along the way, but my guess is they triumph in the end. It will be a fitting an wonderful way to cap the great storylines he built up over the decades he took the X-men from nothing to the greatest comic in modern times.

Oh and Claremont is not trolling the internet for ideas. Such amazing garbage the CC haters put out.

[Lightningboltjs]

I think we can all agree that Rachel should not be there.

I don't agree with that. Rachel is one of my favorite characters. CC has said she does exist in this universe [which I know defies the Excaliber cross time caper, also known as the series that spawned Exiles and possibly the tv show Sliders. I hated the ct caper and I'm glad CC is done with that title which did so amazingly well without him, right? It's just not a sustainable comic idea.] I can't wait until Rachel shows up in this series even though I'm sure it could be years down the line. But that's the beauty of CCs plots, back when the X-men were selling 200,000 copies an issue before marvel commercialized and destroyed the franchise you CARED about the long running plot. It wasn't just about reboots and flash and drek, you wanted Rachel and Wolverine to meet up again and for her to finally confront Cyclops and Jean even though it took years and years to happen but then when CC and Louise Simonson put together Days of the Future Present and it finally happened you had an amazing story. That's what X-men Forever is all about. It's about bringing back the great days of the X-men.

[stormultt]

this continuity is better than the 616 currently so HEY IM FINE!

[Lightningboltjs]

Are you calling 1/2 of the 06 "cowards?" Do you think Jean and Tessa will hesitate to use their powers? Beast can't help use his powers. And the rest of the team is just going to walk off after 70 issues of X-Factor?

The reason Bobby and Warren appear to have retired in this comic is that Claremont believes, as he's often stated, that these characters wouldn't want to keep being superheros their entire lives if they could figure out a way not to be. And why wouldn't they?! When CC and Louise Simonson were in charge of these characters their lives were amazingly painful. It makes sense that they would want out and they would want their own lives to evolve. Time will tell if they get that chance. Happy endings don't last for long for the true X-men, just look at Colossus. He was happy as an artist in Soho, but it couldn't last. As for Warren not being blue, warren happens to be the most vain X-man. He hides his wings and I'm sure once he shook off what Apocalips did to his personality he'd want to hide that blue skin. I also think it's important that CC keeps mentioning it, which means it hasn't changed. Probably a good plot point will emerge on that later on.

[Lightningboltjs]

Whedon got an initial pass out of good faith, Claremont's work on New Excalibur, Die by the Sword and New Exiles ensures there is no good faith.


Spoken like a true cherryblossom of the parlour.

This is the typical Claremont attack, hit him on work he did with the least popular characters in the Marvel universe and say its some kind of trend. What Flaneur neglects to mention, or understand, is that those books wouldn't have had any readers if it weren't for Claremont's HUGE fan base. Exiles wasn't a great title with him but it was much better than the crap they rebooted after he left and that very quickly didn't work either. Claremont deserves to work with the entire X-men cast, like he did in the 80s before the endless spin off titles built off HIS work, and in X-men forever he's got that. It's an amazing book and a must own for any TRUE fan of the real x-men.

[Lightningboltjs]

I agree with most of this, though claiming Betsy's still asian just under different means is acceptable I suppose. X-Men Corrections is a hillarious book. I think it's totally ridiculous and pathetic. I think Claremont is entirely washed-up and broken, but like Marvel, I will continue to help put CC by purchasing this terrible comic. I laugh at how bad it is usually, and that's the enjoyment I get out of it. It's so bad it's comical.

I am SUPER EXCITED that Rachel Grey has been aborted from the Forever (666) Universe. She's such a piece of crap. I do hope we get more explanation about Betsy soon though, as well as where all the other mutants who were around in issues of X-Men 1, 2 and 3 are (unless they appear here and I just missed it, haven't read it yet). I just hope Jubilee sticks around.

Does anyone see how full of hate and venom these CC haters are? Do you really want to be like these people? All I can say is if you hate CC's X-men you've got plenty of other alternatives to them. Pick up Uncanny or whatever else they're choking out for th 616 X-men, just realize that every time they shoot Prof. X in the head or have some radical change to a character it's just a gimmick and will be undone shortly there after. That's right the X-men the CC haters like are just a con job, don't you know that? They will take your money and try to tell you you're reading a major event in these characters lives but it's all a lie, it'll all be undone and set back to the default zone where they can sell you the most junk with the least effort. The 616 X-men are bulletproof and immortal commercial tools designed to seperate as many generations as possible from their cash. They are boring you WILL grow out of them. CC's fans pick up his books when they haven't read a comic in a decade because his X-men were and are THAT GOOD. CC's X-men Forever is about the CHARACTERS and about good plots from the guy who created these characters.

[Jake V]

Does anyone see how full of hate and venom these CC haters are? Do you really want to be like these people? All I can say is if you hate CC's X-men you've got plenty of other alternatives to them. Pick up Uncanny or whatever else they're choking out for th 616 X-men, just realize that every time they shoot Prof. X in the head or have some radical change to a character it's just a gimmick and will be undone shortly there after. That's right the X-men the CC haters like are just a con job, don't you know that? They will take your money and try to tell you you're reading a major event in these characters lives but it's all a lie, it'll all be undone and set back to the default zone where they can sell you the most junk with the least effort. The 616 X-men are bulletproof and immortal commercial tools designed to seperate as many generations as possible from their cash. They are boring you WILL grow out of them. CC's fans pick up his books when they haven't read a comic in a decade because his X-men were and are THAT GOOD. CC's X-men Forever is about the CHARACTERS and about good plots from the guy who created these characters.
You say that like its a bad thing. Who wants to be in their 40's, still clinging onto stuff you read when you were a teenager?

[rumfus]

You say that like its a bad thing. Who wants to be in their 40's, still clinging onto stuff you read when you were a teenager?


That would be me:smile: Just because you enjoyed something as a teenager, doesn't mean you automatically give it up as an adult.

Mark.

[Slung]

Can a Claremont apologist at please explain why Scott's son is like six years old when months before he was a baby? Even if somehow you can justify that those Claremont penned issues of X-Factor where the baby went to the future never happened, when did the baby grow up? Or is this a different child all together? Does that mean Scott screwed around on Jean before her death as Phoenix? Is this Colleen Wing's brat? Or Lee Forrester? Did Jean give birth to the little darling off-pane? Someone explain it to me please.

[Lightningboltjs]

Can a Claremont apologist at please explain why Scott's son is like six years old when months before he was a baby? Even if somehow you can justify that those Claremont penned issues of X-Factor where the baby went to the future never happened, when did the baby grow up? Or is this a different child all together? Does that mean Scott screwed around on Jean before her death as Phoenix? Is this Colleen Wing's brat? Or Lee Forrester? Did Jean give birth to the little darling off-pane? Someone explain it to me please.

He doesn't have have to be six, he could easily be 3 or even a mature 2. What does he say besides "Daddy"? I figure it's Nate. People who get hung up on the continuity of this story taking place directly after X-men 3 are being sticklers for no good reason. X-men Forever is Claremont's vision for the X-men and he's taking out stuff he didn't like that Lee and Portico and many lesser lights after them put in. The X-franchise completely jumped the shark I think right after Age of Apocalypse, it's basically just been retread crap since then and all efforts to revitalize them, including bringing CC back, have just failed because the series can never be as good as it was when it was when it was before the X-men became too big to fail. You'll never have that drama and spontaneity that you had before there were millions to be made from cartoons and toys and movies. X-men Forever is the only hope for an ongoing book that can recapture what the X-men are really all about.

[Slung]

He doesn't have have to be six, he could easily be 3 or even a mature 2. What does he say besides "Daddy"? I figure it's Nate. People who get hung up on the continuity of this story taking place directly after X-men 3 are being sticklers for no good reason. X-men Forever is Claremont's vision for the X-men and he's taking out stuff he didn't like that Lee and Portico and many lesser lights after them put in. The X-franchise completely jumped the shark I think right after Age of Apocalypse, it's basically just been retread crap since then and all efforts to revitalize them, including bringing CC back, have just failed because the series can never be as good as it was when it was when it was before the X-men became too big to fail. You'll never have that drama and spontaneity that you had before there were millions to be made from cartoons and toys and movies. X-men Forever is the only hope for an ongoing book that can recapture what the X-men are really all about.

I was pretty sure Claremont was involved with Inferno and X-Tinction Agenda. Did baby Nate really just up and age three years? Claremont was always the stickler for continuity and this does not fit anything he was doing before. Sorry.

And this is not his vision of the books. I remember him talking about his vision. It sounded way less ridiculous than this book.

[S'Cipio_66]

Can a Claremont apologist at please explain why Scott's son is like six years old when months before he was a baby? Even if somehow you can justify that those Claremont penned issues of X-Factor where the baby went to the future never happened, when did the baby grow up? Or is this a different child all together? Does that mean Scott screwed around on Jean before her death as Phoenix? Is this Colleen Wing's brat? Or Lee Forrester? Did Jean give birth to the little darling off-pane? Someone explain it to me please.

Unless Claremont said something to the contrary in an interview somewhere, there is no reason to think that the child didn't go to the future. We just don't know why he's back or how long he's been gone. Corsair is there too. There may be a story here we'll see later.

Back in the late 80's/early 90's when he revealed he wanted to retire Cyclops and kill Wolverine, Claremont said he wanted Cyclops to be around as a "reserve" member to be called upon in emergencies. So it's likely we'll go back to check on him, as we are currently doing with Colossus, and then we may get answers.

-S'Cipio

[Bolebeau]

He doesn't have have to be six, he could easily be 3 or even a mature 2. What does he say besides "Daddy"?

"I missed you! I missed you! I missed you!"
"Can we go fishing, I saw a mosse, and eagles, grandpa's teaching me to fly!"

These are not the words of a 2 or 3 year old.

Claremont's directly contradicting things he himself scripted or wrote.

[Jack Flash]

Maybe Unus was the father of the baby?

[Lightningboltjs]

"I missed you! I missed you! I missed you!"
"Can we go fishing, I saw a mosse, and eagles, grandpa's teaching me to fly!"

These are not the words of a 2 or 3 year old.

Claremont's directly contradicting things he himself scripted or wrote.

Not true, a mature two-year-old can form sentences and by 3 even an average kid could say all that. This is a kid with telepathic abilities, how fast do you think you could learn to speak if you could directly connect with other people's minds? And why do you care if he's contradicting stuff he didn't like? This title is about an author who created most of the characters in the x-franchise telling the story the way he would tell it if it weren't for editorial interference and the need to maintain the cash cow he created. Yes, Stan and Jack and Len and Cockrum first introduced many of them but Claremont created the personalities and the back stories for the X-men and made them into what they are. To me, and I think many other fans of CC's amazing run on Uncanny, the X-men will never be authentic if he isn't the one writing them. Without Claremont the X-men are just wrong-sounding muppets.

[Lightningboltjs]

I was pretty sure Claremont was involved with Inferno and X-Tinction Agenda. Did baby Nate really just up and age three years? Claremont was always the stickler for continuity and this does not fit anything he was doing before. Sorry.

And this is not his vision of the books. I remember him talking about his vision. It sounded way less ridiculous than this book.

Check out John Byne's Web site sometime, Claremont was NEVER a stickler for little aspects of continuity, which used to enrage Bryne. When he was on Uncanny I could see that pissing people off but on Forever he's completely creating that world the way he wants to, which makes it more like a novel or a creator owned project, which is what makes this book so GREAT and much better than any other X-book could possibly be. In this book the drama actually has some meaning for the characters lives, that's not true in the reboot happy shark jumped 616 X-men where you know as well as I do that a bullet to Prof X's head will NEVER be fatal and the story will NEVER go ANYWHERE. It can't, you'll have the illusion of change for as long as they can keep conning you out of your money. In X-men Forever you will have a universe that can evolve change and where the drama has consequence for the characters involved.

[Home made ectoplasm]

Yeah, the Nate thing isn't a problem to me, he still went off into the future, he then came back - not as Cable, but that doesn't meant that he didn't necessarily spend a couple of years there. Doesn't automatically make it a mistake.

[Blade X]

You say that like its a bad thing. Who wants to be in their 40's, still clinging onto stuff you read when you were a teenager?

Which pretty much describes a large percentage of today's comic book readers who currently read both Marvel and DC superhero comics.

[zaionay]

x-men forever started off interesting....but my god..its quickly become one of the most horrible comics i have ever read.

[Home made ectoplasm]

..Were can i read the story of this?..

..i like to read this story..

^_^

Which story? Please extrapolate.

[Nicoclaws]

Happy endings don't last for long for the true X-men, just look at Colossus. He was happy as an artist in Soho, but it couldn't last.
Isn't your main argument that things in 161 actually "last" ?

And about plots that go for years... well, Onslaught/OZT/New X-force/Cassandra Nova/X-Factor's Layla Miller...

[KJ_81]

Wait, where was it said the cut-off Uncanny issue was 278? CC was still on Uncanny with 279 and the Uncanny/CC X-Men split occurred officially with Uncanny 281. So if anything, it should stop at 281.

Claremont said on Comixfan that the cutoff for Uncanny was 279.5

I'm not sure/can't remember if he clarified just where the .5 cutoff ACTUALLY was.

[Morlock50]

Not true, a mature two-year-old can form sentences and by 3 even an average kid could say all that. This is a kid with telepathic abilities, how fast do you think you could learn to speak if you could directly connect with other people's minds? And why do you care if he's contradicting stuff he didn't like? This title is about an author who created most of the characters in the x-franchise telling the story the way he would tell it if it weren't for editorial interference and the need to maintain the cash cow he created. Yes, Stan and Jack and Len and Cockrum first introduced many of them but Claremont created the personalities and the back stories for the X-men and made them into what they are. To me, and I think many other fans of CC's amazing run on Uncanny, the X-men will never be authentic if he isn't the one writing them. Without Claremont the X-men are just wrong-sounding muppets.

My biggest problem with your arguement is your assertion that Claremont is the only writer capable of doing these characters justice. To say that the characters in Forever are the "real X-men" dismiss a lot of well written stories that have appeared in the last 17+ years. Are you honestly telling me that Mike Carey doesn't write a compelling Rogue? That Scott Lobdell's character driven stories before Onslaught were crap? That Morrison didn't give the title a much needed shot in the arm? What about Whedon's version of Shadowcat? The only "authentic" version of the characters are the first 11 issues that Lee/Kirby worked on in the 60's.

For me, Forever is a title that alternates between craptastic and guilty pleasure, depending on who the artist is. And I consider myself a Claremont fan, who has every issue of his first x-run in my basement. I was looking forward to this comic coming out and wanted him to succeed. But I also have to be honest in my assessment. Does it make me a hater because I'm not as enthusiastic about this title as you?

[Home made ectoplasm]

My biggest problem with your arguement is your assertion that Claremont is the only writer capable of doing these characters justice. To say that the characters in Forever are the "real X-men" dismiss a lot of well written stories that have appeared in the last 17+ years. Are you honestly telling me that Mike Carey doesn't write a compelling Rogue? That Scott Lobdell's character driven stories before Onslaught were crap? That Morrison didn't give the title a much needed shot in the arm? What about Whedon's version of Shadowcat? The only "authentic" version of the characters are the first 11 issues that Lee/Kirby worked on in the 60's.

For me, Forever is a title that alternates between craptastic and guilty pleasure, depending on who the artist is. And I consider myself a Claremont fan, who has every issue of his first x-run in my basement. I was looking forward to this comic coming out and wanted him to succeed. But I also have to be honest in my assessment. Does it make me a hater because I'm not as enthusiastic about this title as you?

I agree completely.