CBR: When Words Collide - Oct 26, 2009

[CBR News]

It seems like every week gives us another major Geoff Johns comic, so this week Tim reflects back on the best Geoff Johns comics of all time, and he doesn't just stop at the Top 10.


Full article here (http://comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=23449).

[Rebis]

How can you rank "Infinite Crisis" above "Blackest Night," Tim? Yes, I realize we're only halfway through "BN" (as of Wednesday), so it could yet end up in the toilet like "Infinite Crisis." Still, I'd rank what I've already read well above "IC." (Though, yep, you're right about those first two issues. I also loved the reveal that Alexander Luthor, who was a hero figure in the original "Crisis," ended up being the evil mastermind. Too bad he's dead while Superboy-Prime still rampages around the DCU.)

[BillR]

I would put most of these on a "Worst of Johns" list, myself. Clearly, this was written by... POD PERSON CALLAHAN!

I'm onto you.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Teen Titans being on the list would've been a shock, but at number three?

Now, I only read the first trade, but as it was one of the most plot driven, characterless stories I've ever read, that unless the book did a complete turn around after that, I'd be surprised if he even puts it on his resume!

Hey, let's take the rather fresh and original character Impulse, suck everything out of him that makes him unique and 'Bart Allen', and for no real reason, make him decide he needs to become knowledgeable and mature, and dress like a character who hasn't been around since the mid-80's.
(A move which added so much to the character that within a couple of years they had him kicked to death by his villains).

[NickFury90]

Judging by the cynical nature of the above posts, I think you should have done that Ellis list first!

[Spidermaniac]

Eh. I would say it is a little early to compare Ellis and Johns given Ellis is about six years further in his career depending on how you count.

The other qualm I have about Johns is that he often writes to appeal to the golden age/silver age yearning crowd which means I'd wager his stories are a lot more highly regarded in the 35+ crowd than with younger readers (if there are many of those anymore). While I am enjoying his Green Lantern run and his work with Black Adam in JSA and 52 is up there with some of the best stuff in comics, I find a lot of his writing moves characters backward rather than forward.

Taking Ellis out of the equation, and just looking at Jones's run on Green Lantern, I find it hard not to compare it to the Gerard Jones run circa 1990 (which also reignited the series for a while), and I find Jones's work to be a bit more meaningful with much stronger characterization. But, that may be a matter of personal taste and my own age-bias in comics.

[Rhymer]

Eh. I would say it is a little early to compare Ellis and Johns given Ellis is about six years further in his career depending on how you count.


And it would be unfavourable for Johns, too, as Ellis is clearly the better writer. The age is of no importance: Six years ago Authority and - for the most part - Planetary were already written. I doubt Johns has created anything comparable. Of course, he is very successful. But we're talkinging quality here.

This whole TOP-10 list is ... undeserved.

[ptsteelers]

There is no-way you can compare Ellis to Johns and I am sure this list isn't trying to because it failed miserably.

This is a very bad list, my friend. Johns' Teen Titans? HIs Avengers? Why not throw his Thing mini he wrote in as well, because it is obvious you are just tossing titles around.
:wink:

[rorshach1982]

Eh. I would say it is a little early to compare Ellis and Johns given Ellis is about six years further in his career depending on how you count.

The other qualm I have about Johns is that he often writes to appeal to the golden age/silver age yearning crowd which means I'd wager his stories are a lot more highly regarded in the 35+ crowd than with younger readers (if there are many of those anymore). While I am enjoying his Green Lantern run and his work with Black Adam in JSA and 52 is up there with some of the best stuff in comics, I find a lot of his writing moves characters backward rather than forward.


I'm not too much of a Johns fan, and your criticism of his writing as pertaining to an age bracket is pretty valid. I'm 27 and I've never read Superman monthly, I don't long for the Marv Wolfman era. To me, anything harking back to Silver Age/Golden Age tropes are great and historic times in comics that have nothing to do with me as a reader. I actually find it annoying when continuity-laden nitpicking becomes a story. 52 was atrocious for this reason. But given that, Johns at least seems willing to take that continuity and twist it to fit a decent story. Sinestro's and Hal's modified origins in the pages of Green Lantern are a good example, and Johns willingness to try something fresh with Superman in the New Krypton run is bold enough to get an applaud from me.

I think it's perfectly acceptable to compare Ellis and Johns. Eliis is a superior writer without question, but he is guilty of his own missteps; I'm pretty sure that he's written the same story three or four times by now with Black Summer and No Hero, etc., he cannot write a monthly superhero title without writing about some quirk of quantum scientific magic making it into the script, and he has the attention span of boozed up hummingbird. I think what would mark him as superior is that he is comfortable writing in any genre, whether it be fantasy, spy/thriller, or superheroes. Hell, he did a non-fictional account of the Battle of Crecy that read better than most monthlies.

I have the feeling that Johns will burn out in about two years, the man is overworking it, and after we see the next shift in storytelling style in comics, he'll slowly become a more relevant Claremont, slightly anachronistic but still a decent seller.

[rorshach1982]

And it would be unfavourable for Johns, too, as Ellis is clearly the better writer. The age is of no importance: Six years ago Authority and - for the most part - Planetary were already written. I doubt Johns has created anything comparable. Of course, he is very successful. But we're talkinging quality here.

This whole TOP-10 list is ... undeserved.

It is, but remember it's really just a facet of Callahan's quirky opinion. He ranked what he liked. Not judging it, but he as much admits it in his writings that these works are not all good "But if this comic isn't successful in and of itself," starts a paragraph about Infinite Crisis, which almost anyone you ask would call a critical failure."This is admittedly a sentimental pick, but this poor excuse for a "Final Crisis" spin-off is one of my favorite series of the past year."

That about Legion of 3 Worlds, which was as close to fan-gratifying gonzo porn for Legion aficionados as DC will ever publish. Just look at those splash pages! Pretty sure I saw Matter-Eater Lad in one of those. He eats Matter.

I've read a lot of stuff by Callahan over the years and it's clear he doesn't really follow the idea of objective value in storytelling, but follows the subjective line of critical thought. His opinion, just a valid as anyone's, is what he writes about, not necessarily the inherent value of a work. I mean, he places three issues of a new series meant to bring back from the dead a character Johns killed for little reason in the first place, above a character-defining run on Flash. That run on Flash did more to establish Wally West as a legitimate icon in DC than Waid's, and three issues of this series trumps that? And is it much of a surprise that three of his picks contain Connor Kent, a character he really likes and had written about before?

"Only three issues into "Adventure Comics," and I'm already placing it as his second-best series of all time? Yes. It's that good. I don't even care that much about the Legion of Super-Heroes back-up tales (and you know I love the Legion), but the Superboy main feature is some of the best stuff Johns has ever written in his life. "

Johns career isn't exactly massive, but that is a telling statement from Callahan. He likes what he likes and he writes about what he likes. If you read the article as anything other than a description of things Callahan enjoys reading that were written by Johns, despite the many flaws, and seeing which characters really drive his interests, you read the article wrong. Again, not judging because this is a critical viewpoint that a lot of review columnists use.

[DHacker615]

I think that correct parallel for Geoff Johns is more the writer half of John Byrne than Chris Claremont. Like Byrne, he has one irrefutable classic run. Like Byrne, that run is a neo-conservative take on a Silver Age property (FF for Byrne, Hal Jordan for Johns). Also like Byrne, Johns has had a brief hit-and-miss run on Superman that included an revised origin. Additionally, both have a tendency to try to use their successes as templates for other properties where they may not be appropriate (Spider-Man: Chapter One, Flash: Rebirth).

Finally, both very clearly have their pet characters. For Byrne, it was She-Hulk and the Kirby creations for DC. For Johns, it is Conner Kent, Tim Drake, Bart Allen and Cassie Sandsmark. They are what he calls "The Good Teen Titans".

That is both a refutation of the most common critique of Johns and my personal beef with him. That generation of characters is very clearly not "retro". They were creations of the *shudder* '90s. However, Johns treats them in a way that is very clearly at odds with his over-all sensibility.

Geoff Johns has made a pretty successful career out of unwinding as much of the post-1986 DCU as possible, while incorporating new school horror and ultra-violence. His signature moment is Max Lord shooting Ted Kord in the head. He symbolically killed the Bwa-ha-ha version of the Justice League and by extension the era of DC Comics that gave birth to them.

The only book that was more symbolic of that era than the JLI was Young Justice. Killing off the JLI while having those four roam around is profoundly hypocritical. It implies that Johns lacks the courage of his convictions (or maybe a lack of any real convictions). Either DC made a mistake in rolling out their third generation heroes (Kyle Rayner, Wally West, the JLI) and introducing a fourth generation (aka Young Justice), or they did not. It is a difference that is extremely difficult to split.

Attempting to split the difference implies a level of cynicism that makes Geoff Johns easy to like when you are in the audience that he is pandering to at the moment, but tough to really love. The guy refuses to maximize his talent by doing stuff that is difficult, like doing a fond (and final) farewell to set of characters that clearly mean something to him, have been good to him and he would like work with in the future.

That said, there is every indication that Johns is a truly likable human being. Cynical, likable and talented people earn a very nice living in the entertainment business. Even if the prevailing winds of comic business move against him, the guy will always make a nice living writing something.

[briguyx]

Admittedly, I haven't read too much of Geoff's work, but come on! "Red Zone" in "Avengers" was a great big bore. And saying "Flash" wasn't dramatic for years before Johns got on it is just not true, considering the many great storylines Waid and Augustyn did.

Hey, I'll admit Ellis does repeat himself sometimes, but "Planetary" is my alltime favorite series and there's no doubt that you can point to many examples of his output and see it's pretty terrific and definitely stands up to whatever Geoff Johns has written...

[comicfoil]

That... was a less than compelling arguement.
"It may be too early..."
"I dont consider [sic] a successful story"
"This is admittedly a sentimental pick"
"Only three issues in..."
This is not how you preface points to support your arguement.
Most of Geoff's early FLASH run, his TEEN TITANS (despite what he did with Bart) and the SUPERMAN and the LSH stories are superb. JSA was really good too. GL doesn't do it for me and that Avengers arc was merely passable.
I like Geoff Johns, heck I read most of what he puts out because it appeals to me. But you can't tell me you honestly think he is on the same level as Ellis when put up against STORMWATCH, AUTHORITY, PLANETARY. And those are just the best of Ellis' superhero titles.

[rorshach1982]

That... was a less than compelling arguement.
... But you can't tell me you honestly think he is on the same level as Ellis when put up against STORMWATCH, AUTHORITY, PLANETARY. And those are just the best of Ellis' superhero titles.


I think you can compare any comic writer to any other. They write comics. I don't think it implies some level equivalency. Ellis stacks up as a better writer against Johns. Ellis goes deeper into what the superhero represents or can be, Johns stays on the surface of superheroics and does solidly interesting but not overly complex comics.

How did this become about Warren Ellis?

[GreatGobo]

Jeff Johns should maybe get a restraining order against Tim. Sounds like he has a massive man crush on him.

Whats interesting is Tim goes on about how great a story it was then says "well it could have been better".

For the record, Blackest Night = Biggest Snoozefest. Dollar bin in 5 years.

[rorshach1982]

Jeff Johns should maybe get a restraining order against Tim. Sounds like he has a massive man crush on him.

Whats interesting is Tim goes on about how great a story it was then says "well it could have been better".

For the record, Blackest Night = Biggest Snoozefest. Dollar bin in 5 years.

More like 3. But almost every comic ends up there after the trades ship.

Callahan's more partial to Grant Morrison I'm sure. Like I said before; the quality of a work is not important to Callahan, only his emotional state when reading the comic is. Every review is personal to him and largely dependent, I expect, on his preconceptions about a work. If he's excited and wants to read an upcoming story, he wants to like it.

It's the same reason he had that dust up with Peter David a while back; Tim had no special love for X-Factor's characters, and because he did not value these characters, the story didn't matter to him. He expected nothing special, so his interpretation was that of a bad comic. He does it with Morrison in the inverse; he likes what Morrison writes, believes Morrison will put out a good story, so when he gets any story from him, he calls it good, or at least ascribes some connection to past works of Morrison's that fit into this literary framework Callahan believes he's devised over the years.

Again, lots of reviewers do this sort of thing. It's simply a subjective view vs. an objective.

[MikeCr]

Tim, this column was a piss-take, right? I mean: Infinite Crisis? Infinite Crisis??? And based on "the strength of issues #1 and 2, and the sacrifice of Conner Kent"? Issues #1 and #2 did have an interesting premise. The fact that the whole story falls apart and FAILS to deliver on the questions evoked at the beginning - instead becoming "hey, you remember Crisis on the Infinite Earths, right? This is the same; but DIFFERENT! Good guys are bad guys now! Much punching!!! - is evidence that it's NOT good. By the time of Conner Kents supposed "powerful sacrifice" I just didn't care. I just wanted the story to be over so that I could stop reading it.

Furthermore, I took a look at Adventure Comics #1 after seeing your list. That's quality Geoff Johns? :eek: Outside of playing fetch with Krypto, a scene already done better in All-Star Superman #6, that issue was one pile of contrived, ineffectual, and (most importantly) boring tropes. I mean, the girl actually stops to fix her bike on the rickety bridge exactly when Conner happens to be flying by? Tropes aren't necessarily bad but that's just lazy, lazy cribbing of the language of superhero comics that's been done about 10,482 times before. And I'm not even gonna start on Conner's dialogue during that sequence.

Here's an interesting question: what from this list could you give to a normal human being - a reasonable, open minded, half-way intelligent individual but NOT someone who's been initiated into DC specifically or superheroes generally - and expect them to enjoy? Or even care about? Maybe Flash, Teen Titans, and (at a stretch) Green Lantern?

I'm not joking Tim. Your column actually made me appreciate Johns less and served, much like Nevett suspected it would, more as an example of how limited his body of work really is.

[TimothyCallahan]

So you guys don't like Geoff Johns, hey?

[TimothyCallahan]

Here's an interesting question: what from this list could you give to a normal human being - a reasonable, open minded, half-way intelligent individual but NOT someone who's been initiated into DC specifically or superheroes generally - and expect them to enjoy? Or even care about? Maybe Flash, Teen Titans, and (at a stretch) Green Lantern?

Probably none of them. But who cares? Why is "introductory-level superhero comics" a mark of quality?

[TimothyCallahan]

Also, I really hope you guys can tell the difference between a wildly subjective list done for an opinion column and an objective review.

And did I ever say that Johns was better than Ellis? That's a weird conclusion some people have jumped to.

[die_yng]

Probably none of them. But who cares? Why is "introductory-level superhero comics" a mark of quality?

It's not, but I'm fairly sure, that you could find a bunch of Ellis stuff, or for that point Grant Morrison's or any other real good writer and give it to someone not into comics and he/she'd like it if his/ her intelligence isn't way below average, while Johns work is really only stuff for grown-up fanboys, like he is one himself.

I do like Johns, I loved his JSA and liked his Flash, but I always find it Strange that the same guy who did work so well with the Legacy hero concept in JSA felt the need to destroy Kyle Rayner, Bart Allen and probably Wally West as well.

Instead of so many flawed books like his Avengers or Infinite Crisis, why not put something simple, funny and entertaining like Stars and S.T.R.I.P.E. on the list?

Please don't take this the wrong way, as your list is your list and it's clear, it's only a personal opinion, but we don't have to agree with it.

[rev sully]

Ahhh...
discourse.

At least we get all fired-up about it, eh? We care a lot.

I love Geoff johns stuff. I say lets attack the body of this work and not eachother. This is the price of wearing an indigo Tribe tee shirt around. Johns helped make that!

OK...I include BOOSTER GOLD! That was fun and everything a Geoff Johns comic should be. That was fun and I looked forward to it. I dropped it when Johns left. Same with TEEN TITANS. I'd give BOOSTER over TT but who else but Geoff johns takes shotguns to children's knees? Huh? "Hollywood" Johns gives those stories and panel direction a 24-frames/second feel.

I never read his MARVEL stuff. I'm a big DC kid.

I liked INFINITE CRISIS a lot...I'm not into bashing it. There is a lot there to bash if you wanna bash...it's a frakkin' huge target. I personally like that I own the gnosis and issue #4 where Connor almost-swears at Superboy-Prime, "Come on, you Mother- -" that was taken out in my hardcover trade. I prefer the original run. I was the first person to catch Alexander Luthor looking right us...hey, it's a comic book, it was a fun ride while it was being published. Infinite Crisis set a bigger table...nobody really liked FINAL CRISIS either except for readers such as Tim & myself so I'm a little lenient on the CRISIS stories. I have a CRISIS longbox that ends with the BLACKEST NIGHT...I'm giving up event comics but iDigress...

Huge FLASH fan. Johns could write his name on FLASH brand toilet paper and I'd buy it. I love Barry's "voice" post-Final Crisis. I'm in for KID FLASH as well...did anyone catch Bart's eyes when Max Mercury returns in REBORN #4???? EVS just made Bart LOOK like Bart again with big feet & big eyes but in an action comics serious-way.

FIFTY-TWO was serious fun...like seeing the Allman Bros at the beacon in NYC. A great jam band.

Johns does great things with characters and makes you like these people....especially the bad guys. He makes some of the best bad guys I think.

crea shaakti,
Rev Sully