Does Dick Grayson Suffer From "Superman Syndrome"?

[WorstThingUS]

One of the best things about Chuck Dixon's Nightwing run is that Dick Grayson was every inch the accomplished professional someone who'd been trained by The Batman and doing this all his life should be. Razor sharp mind, physical perfection...he cut through bad guys like a hot knife through butter. They were never pushovers, but when he won, it was how he should win, a seemingly effortless combination of brains and brawn. Even Devin Grayson's run had him face off to essentially his entire rogues gallery and he beat the crap out of them, though pushed to his limits. The nearest pop culture comparison I can make is James Bond. A seasoned professional who's the best there is at what he does. It makes me wonder if it's too much for some writers the way Superman is too much? How can you write for someone who can essentially do anything? It really comes to mind now that he's Batman and he should really be a greater Batman than what we've been shown. Though I found Prodigal, his first tenure as Batman, a little dull, he still kicked ass and took names with a smooth efficiency. Morrison seems to get this, but it occasionally gets lost behind "Oh, I never wanted this" whining (I don't read Winnick, period). More than ever I now miss Chuck Dixon because he could truly do a Dick Grayson-as-Batman justice.

Thoughts?

[MTL76]

Though I'm liking the Batman title, I admit that Morrison on B&R and Dixon on Batman would be an interesting dichotomy. Really, Dixon on anything is worth checking out. Sadly, I don't think he'll be back at DC again. It's too bad.

[colossus34]

WOW umm did you read the same Nightwing run that I did??? Grayson essentially failed in every endeaver in the entire 150 plus series... He was always upstaged by some mary sue or random new hero that the flavor of the month writer wanted to "look cool" by besting him. Dixon had it with Conner Hawke, Wolfman had Vigilante and Devin had Trantula. Hell even random joe bloe cops use to knock him in the back of the head!

He had some small victories here and their but overall he should have been shown to be WAAY more competant than he was in his series. Here's hoping the Batman tenure will solidify him as a competant A-list hero

[titanfan]

One of the best things about Chuck Dixon's Nightwing run is that Dick Grayson was every inch the accomplished professional someone who'd been trained by The Batman and doing this all his life should be. Razor sharp mind, physical perfection...he cut through bad guys like a hot knife through butter.

What are you talking about? Until the VERY LAST arc of Dixon's run, Nightwing never defeated one of his major villains SOLO. That was one of the major complaints of the whole arc, Nightwing was jobbed out way too much. He was totally inept in the entire Dixon run.

[WorstThingUS]

I remember Batman sending him in to subdue a prison solo and him doing just that. I remember every assassin Blockbuster sending after him having his ass handed to him. I remember Shrike having every advantage and still ending up with his d**k in the dirt. What book were you guys reading?

[OverMaster]

Dixon's Nightwing was very much like Spider-Man, in that he always got beaten around by the villains, but finally always would find a way to beat them back and be awesome at it, making his actual victories all that much sweeter.

[Redem]

I think you can classify Nightwing level of skill as "A Batman you can punch"

[WorstThingUS]

Dixon's Nightwing was very much like Spider-Man, in that he always got beaten around by the villains, but finally always would find a way to beat them back and be awesome at it, making his actual victories all that much sweeter.

Thank you! That's the book I was reading! It was three steps:

1) I don't know you, you get a shot in
2) I'm feeling you out, you get a shot in
3) I know you, your ass is mine.

His dismantling of Shrike is a classic example of this. And the second encounter they just get served because he knows them already.

[AiyokuSama]

I don't think that Dick suffers from "superman syndrome" and that he DOESN'T is a reason many of his fans gripe about him being punked.

Dick IS good. Really good. But not Superman and not perfect. He slips up. Overestimates. Underestimates. Focuses on the wrong detail. And so on. In other words, he's human. But he also keeps going until the job is done, which is what makes him a hero. It's also why I enjoy him as a character.

[Mia]

Dixon's Nightwing was very much like Spider-Man, in that he always got beaten around by the villains, but finally always would find a way to beat them back and be awesome at it, making his actual victories all that much sweeter.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I loved it that Dixon's NW fought for all of his victories. It made him far more interesting to read about. Than some quasi omnipotent god who could kick everyone's tail and never broke a sweat.

[Alan2099]

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I loved it that Dixon's NW fought for all of his victories. It made him far more interesting to read about. Than some quasi omnipotent god who could kick everyone's tail and never broke a sweat.
That one of the big reasons I tend to like the character more than Batman most of the time.

[colossus34]

I remember Batman sending him in to subdue a prison solo and him doing just that. I remember every assassin Blockbuster sending after him having his ass handed to him. I remember Shrike having every advantage and still ending up with his d**k in the dirt. What book were you guys reading?

Yea except every assasiain Blockbuster sent was a z-lister that Batman would have sneezed on and beaten with his eyes closed... Shrike?!? Please, I would have loved to see him turned into a great villian but he was never built up to be a formidable foe and was later shown to be one shotted by the likes of batgirl etc....

Let's face it Nightwng has almost NO formidable victories in his entire run of his series, in fact his entire series was him jobbing out to make others look cool(batgirl,vigilante,conner hawke,trantuala etc) or Dixon's way of making him "relatable" by making him get knocked in the back of the head or beaten on by z-listers.

[Redem]

Also Dick can't do "crazy prepare" I'll add

[WorstThingUS]

Yea except every assasiain Blockbuster sent was a z-lister that Batman would have sneezed on and beaten with his eyes closed... Shrike?!? Please, I would have loved to see him turned into a great villian but he was never built up to be a formidable foe and was later shown to be one shotted by the likes of batgirl etc....

They went out of their way to make Shrike formidable given his appearance in the Robin Year One mini showing him to have trained as an assassin as long as Dick has trained as a hero.


Let's face it Nightwng has almost NO formidable victories in his entire run of his series, in fact his entire series was him jobbing out to make others look cool(batgirl,vigilante,conner hawke,trantuala etc) or Dixon's way of making him "relatable" by making him get knocked in the back of the head or beaten on by z-listers.

Batgirl and Conner are clearly established as martial artists on Shiva's level which is above even Batman. I don't believe in fanwank. He shouldn't be a better fighter than them anymore than they should be better gymnasts than him. And on what planet did mentally unhinged rapist murderer Tarantula look look cool!?! Vigilante, however, was an absolute disgrace. What Batman did to him in Gotham Underground is exactly what Nightwing should have done to him.

[titanfan]

I remember Batman sending him in to subdue a prison solo and him doing just that. I remember every assassin Blockbuster sending after him having his ass handed to him. I remember Shrike having every advantage and still ending up with his d**k in the dirt. What book were you guys reading?

I remember him needing Superman's help to get the edge on him. He NEVER beat Blockbuster solo in his own book.

I remember him needing Black Canary coming to his rescue against Shrike.

I remember him having huge trouble with Nite-Wing, a villain who was nothing more than street-thug trained.


Thank you! That's the book I was reading! It was three steps:

There's a HUGE difference in Spider-Man and Superman. If you had said Spiderman-like in the beginning, you'd probably get less of an argument....

[Vic Vega]

See I blame this on Dixon not being able to create a credible baddie if his life depended on it more than Dick being nigh-unbeatable. He borrowed smart Blockbuster. Out of the baddies he created for 'Wing none stuck except maybe Double Dare (who were intended to be more nunsance than threat in Dixon's defense) after that you got the Backwards head guy, Lady Vic, Brutale, the knife guy and Shrike.

Those guys were jobbers the lot of them.

Only Shrike was built up to be even a credible threat to Dick. And Dixon had 'Wing defeat Shrike outright which kinda destroyed his crediblity as a recurring bad guy.

That was weird as all heck 'tho since the only real point of the Dixon penned Robin mini was to give Shrike a backstory and a reason to hate 'Wing(Dick got his master-a member of the League of Assassins-killed when they were both teens).

[Mr. Holmes]

Judd Winnick just hates Dick, plain and simple. I didn't bother reading his recent arc on Batman. This is the same guy who wanted to kill Grayson because he thinks Grayson is "redundant" and replace him with Jason Todd. LAME. I really enjoy Winnick's take on Jason in Under the Hood, despite the lame explanation of Jason's return, and I also like some of his other stuff, like Trials of Shazam (that's right Captain Marvel fans) so yeah.

I think Morrison is writing Grayson as competent as he should be. Just check out Batman and Robin #3. I really wish Chuck Dixon was writing Batman. Hell even Peter Tomasi would be awesome on Batman. Winnick just needs to go away and stick to characters he actually likes.

[Jorriss]

I remember him needing Superman's help to get the edge on him. He NEVER beat Blockbuster solo in his own book.
As I recall, he didn't need Superman, he was using superman strategically to get Blockbuster to back down from closing an apartment.



I remember him needing Black Canary coming to his rescue against Shrike.
Look at the context. On occasion, Bruce was beat by Bane.



I remember him having huge trouble with Nite-Wing, a villain who was nothing more than street-thug trained.

Um what? He just flat out shut down tad.

[Vic Vega]

And on what planet did mentally unhinged rapist murderer Tarantula look look cool!?!

She's the Punisher with boobs and a mask fetish. She had potential to be 'Wings Catwoman. That Wing and her have a rough trade (she forced herself on him-he takes her to mexico??? WTF???) sorta thing going on makes it all the more interesting.


Vigilante, however, was an absolute disgrace. What Batman did to him in Gotham Underground is exactly what Nightwing should have done to him.

Well, 'Wing was having woman trouble at the time-his head wasn't in the game.:biggrin: But that was the most blatant act of DC jobbery I've seen lately-which is saying a LOT.

[Captain Jim]

I now miss Chuck Dixon because he could truly do a Dick Grayson-as-Batman justice.

No argument there.


Dixon on anything is worth checking out. Sadly, I don't think he'll be back at DC again.

At least as long as Dan Didio is in charge, but that won't be forever.


Judd Winnick just hates Dick, plain and simple. I didn't bother reading his recent arc on Batman. This is the same guy who wanted to kill Grayson because he thinks Grayson is "redundant" and replace him with Jason Todd.

No, actually, that was Dan Didio.

[Sizzle]

Well, I think Dixon's run with McDaniel was fantastic. So much fun. Always been a big Dixon fan, and McDaniel should only be allowed to pencil Nightwing.

Dixon does come up with some rather lame villians though. However, I always liked King Snake, at least until they made him Bane's dad.

[WorstThingUS]

I remember him needing Superman's help to get the edge on him. He NEVER beat Blockbuster solo in his own book.

His goal was never to "beat up" Blockbuster either. What good would that have done?


I remember him needing Black Canary coming to his rescue against Shrike.

You remember incorrectly. Shrike took her down so Dick had to save her then kick Shrike's ass.


II remember him having huge trouble with Nite-Wing, a villain who was nothing more than street-thug trained.

Again you remember incorrectly.



There's a HUGE difference in Spider-Man and Superman. If you had said Spiderman-like in the beginning, you'd probably get less of an argument....

Spider-man doesn't have model good looks, a fortune, training by one of the best heroes ever and the unquestioned respect of the entire heroic DCU.

[WorstThingUS]

See I blame this on Dixon not being able to create a credible baddie if his life depended on it more than Dick being nigh-unbeatable. He borrowed smart Blockbuster.

Actually what he "borrowed" was Daredevil. As much as I love it, Nightwing was a non-depressing Dardevil (until Devin Grayson showed up).


Only Shrike was built up to be even a credible threat to Dick. And Dixon had 'Wing defeat Shrike outright which kinda destroyed his crediblity as a recurring bad guy.

That was weird as all heck 'tho since the only real point of the Dixon penned Robin mini was to give Shrike a backstory and a reason to hate 'Wing(Dick got his master-a member of the League of Assassins-killed when they were both teens).

The way he defeated Bullseye---er, Shrike worked for me. The problem was, we never saw Shrike demonstrate how he could beat anyone. Even his defeat of Black Canary didn't suggest so much of his skill as her over-confidence.

[Gabe De Los Muertos]

IMO, Dick Grayson is one the best heroes in the DCU period. Like someone said earlier, he's their Spiderman.

[T Hedge Coke]

That's the book I was reading! It was three steps:

1) I don't know you, you get a shot in
2) I'm feeling you out, you get a shot in
3) I know you, your ass is mine.

His dismantling of Shrike is a classic example of this. And the second encounter they just get served because he knows them already.

This. And it nicely demonstrates how even-minded and decent Richard Grayson is. He's not trying to hurt people, even when he has to. He's not revenge-driven or angst-driven, he's parent the world and can't we all just be nice and have fun now driven. He cares.

And, he's a superhero. Superheroes, treated as such, have to beat the odds. It's in the rule book. Treated as human, Dick should be outclassed once in awhile and step back and call in better qualified folks (which he has, from Oracle to Superman, and which he has avoided, as seen towards the end of Grayson's run and elsewhere, because he was feeling responsible).

Not beating the odds, is pretty rare in serial superhero fiction (are Xavier and Wolverine the only people who couldn't negotiate with - or beat away - Galactus?).

[Mr. Holmes]

It was both of them. DiDIo wanted Dick to die in Infinite Crisis for the sake of making it a dramatic moment, Winnick wanted to replace him with Jason Todd.

[Doug Strange]

I always liked King Snake, at least until they made him Bane's dad.
This...actually happened?

Oh, sadness.

[Godlike13]

He NEVER beat Blockbuster solo in his own book.

He drops a house on Blockbuster in #15, and he really kicked the shit out of Rolly in #93. Though, then he let Tarantula shoot him in the head after he was done, which screwed him up for a while.


Nightwing kicked a lot of ass in his book, before OYL that is. Though Tomasi had him kicking ass again there at the end.

[carabas]

It was both of them. DiDIo wanted Dick to die in Infinite Crisis for the sake of making it a dramatic moment, Winnick wanted to replace him with Jason Todd.Winick brought back Jason Todd. He brought him back as a villain who chopped the heads of drug dealers. Does that sound like he wanted Todd to replace Dick as Nightwing?

Dan DiDio was the one who made that choice. During the brief period that here were two Nightwings, it was Grayson in Winick's Outsiders, not Todd.

[Godlike13]

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2009/01/22/comic-book-legends-revealed-191/

[the-wolf]

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2009/01/22/comic-book-legends-revealed-191/

Well, that seems to answer that.


I think Dixon consciously wanted to interpret NW as DC's version of a powerless Spider-Man/Daredevil. Not invincible, all the quips, sometimes a reluctant hero and cheerier. I agree that Dixon's main problem was in creating any great rogues, but ask yourself, how many other writers are able to do it? Like creating a new hero, all the good (or bad in this case) ideas are taken.

Also, you have to cut a guy a break when other writers take characters and devalue them in a different book. That's out of Dixon's control. Bane and KGBeast were both completely bad-@$$ when they were introduced, meant to be the equivalent to Batman, only evil. Look what was done to them.

Dick shouldn't be as good as Batman, but he doesn't need to be. He brings a different attitude and outlook on life. Which is refreshing to Mr. Grim n' Gritty all the time. He's also got a slightly different set of baggage than Bruce. Sometimes I think that biggest shadow Dick has to get out from under isn't Bruce's, but the fans.

[Werehunter]

In terms of Dick never really defeating Blockbuster, I don't agree with this. Dixon clearly was trying to set Blockbuster up to be like Marvel's Kingpin. How often does any hero really beat the crap out of Kingpin? The way those characters get defeated is by ruining their plans, something Dick did time and time again. Plus Nightwing real villain in his series was Bludhaven itself. The city really didn't want to be saved for too many people gained by keeping the status quo. He not only had to defeat the mobsters, super villains, assassins and even the cops, but he had to convince the people they were worth saving.

[Sizzle]

Well, that seems to answer that.


I think Dixon consciously wanted to interpret NW as DC's version of a powerless Spider-Man/Daredevil. Not invincible, all the quips, sometimes a reluctant hero and cheerier. I agree that Dixon's main problem was in creating any great rogues, but ask yourself, how many other writers are able to do it? Like creating a new hero, all the good (or bad in this case) ideas are taken.

Also, you have to cut a guy a break when other writers take characters and devalue them in a different book. That's out of Dixon's control. Bane and KGBeast were both completely bad-@$$ when they were introduced, meant to be the equivalent to Batman, only evil. Look what was done to them.

Dick shouldn't be as good as Batman, but he doesn't need to be. He brings a different attitude and outlook on life. Which is refreshing to Mr. Grim n' Gritty all the time. He's also got a slightly different set of baggage than Bruce. Sometimes I think that biggest shadow Dick has to get out from under isn't Bruce's, but the fans.

I like Bane quite a bit, it's just he's been not handled well over the years. I like Gails take on him, shows a different side of him.

[WorstThingUS]

I think Dixon consciously wanted to interpret NW as DC's version of a powerless Spider-Man/Daredevil.

Little more than that. Dixon set up the Daredevil scenario and Devin Grayson followed it to its logical conclusion: ripping off Born Again.

Hero with job pertaining to the law by day? Check (cop and lawyer).
Physically massive mob boss with a female fixation? Check (Blockbuster & mother, Kingpin & wife).
Reporter figures out secret id? Check (some reporter from Vanity Fair and Ben Urich of the Daily Bugle).
Mob boss blows up home after he learns secret ID? Check (Dick's apt building and Matt's brownstone).
Crazy lover/assassin who works for mob boss? Check (Tarantula and Elektra)
Professional assassin obsessed with beating hero? Check (Shrike and Bullseye)
Being broken by mob boss? Check
Not being so broken by mob boss you forget who you are and make an awesome comeback? Che---oops, only Daredevil got to do that. Under Devin Grayson and Dan DiDio (who said he loved her work) Nightwing hit rock bottom and started tunneling.

Yes, I'm still pissed.

[carabas]

Well, the impressive comeback was planned and greenlighted, but then Infinite Crisis happened, and some morons figured that since Dick was going to be killed off anyway, why bother, let's just do some Crisis tie-in crap about the Society.

[Duy]

One of the best things about Chuck Dixon's Nightwing run is that Dick Grayson was every inch the accomplished professional someone who'd been trained by The Batman and doing this all his life should be. Razor sharp mind, physical perfection...he cut through bad guys like a hot knife through butter. They were never pushovers, but when he won, it was how he should win, a seemingly effortless combination of brains and brawn. Even Devin Grayson's run had him face off to essentially his entire rogues gallery and he beat the crap out of them, though pushed to his limits. The nearest pop culture comparison I can make is James Bond. A seasoned professional who's the best there is at what he does. It makes me wonder if it's too much for some writers the way Superman is too much? How can you write for someone who can essentially do anything? It really comes to mind now that he's Batman and he should really be a greater Batman than what we've been shown. Though I found Prodigal, his first tenure as Batman, a little dull, he still kicked ass and took names with a smooth efficiency. Morrison seems to get this, but it occasionally gets lost behind "Oh, I never wanted this" whining (I don't read Winnick, period). More than ever I now miss Chuck Dixon because he could truly do a Dick Grayson-as-Batman justice.

Thoughts?
I did a "What's Wrong with Nightwing" thread a while back and one of the things I posited is that the problem with Dick is that he's just, quite simply put, the most well balanced guy there is. He almost literally has no issues; whatever issues he does have, he deals with in a healthy manner. He has father issues with Bruce-- that he can deal with. He has romance issues -- that he can deal with. He's just simply so good at everything he tries to do - athletically, physically, mentally, and emotionally - that writers have a tough time trying to grasp him (because I think of the current need for "angst" or whatever it is) and keep shunting him off into that in-between place between Robin and Batman; no longer Robin and not yet Batman. (Even if he is Batman now)

When the truth is is that Dick, just like everyone else, is a synthesis of everyone around him. He's been influenced as much by Donna Troy as he has been by Tim Drake. He gets the concept of family and is so good at building relationships that I HONESTLY THINK that Dick is the perfect guy to anchor a team-up book, more than anyone else.

Also, somewhat related, but we need to see more Dick/Wally interactions. The scene where they're chilling back with beers in Tomasi's run is priceless.

[Duy]

I think Dixon consciously wanted to interpret NW as DC's version of a powerless Spider-Man/Daredevil. Not invincible, all the quips, sometimes a reluctant hero and cheerier. I agree that Dixon's main problem was in creating any great rogues, but ask yourself, how many other writers are able to do it? Like creating a new hero, all the good (or bad in this case) ideas are taken.


I think, critically, Dick could be DC's Daredevil. He has the name recognition, but it's not really that set in stone or that intractable that you can't put a superstar writer and artist, or an up and comer like Frank Miller was when he took over Daredevil, on him and have them run wild with it.

[Godlike13]

Not being so broken by mob boss you forget who you are and make an awesome comeback? Che---oops, only Daredevil got to do that. Under Devin Grayson and Dan DiDio (who said he loved her work) Nightwing hit rock bottom and started tunneling.

Yes, I'm still pissed.


To be fair i think Devin Grayson was leading to a comeback, and even left it open for other writers, but then OYL cut it off and they dropped the ball.

[the-wolf]

I think, critically, Dick could be DC's Daredevil. He has the name recognition, but it's not really that set in stone or that intractable that you can't put a superstar writer and artist, or an up and comer like Frank Miller was when he took over Daredevil, on him and have them run wild with it.

All the potential in the world. How? You nailed it on the head.

[the-wolf]

To be fair i think Devin Grayson was leading to a comeback, and even left it open for other writers, but then OYL cut it off and they dropped the ball.

Which is why I hate events and wish they'd go away. All the extra coin they make from them is flushed down the toilet in lost readers from the regular titles over crap like this.

And, yeah, they can still do it. But, no, it's not the same. Especially now that he's Batman. Interesting that Dick will finally become the man everyone knew he could be. He just won't do it by getting out from under Batman's shadow. The exact opposite, actually. Which, to me, sorta undermines the whole point.

[Joe Acro]

Dick Grayson does not have the ability to anything. In fact, he's very limited. Quite often, he gets outsmarted, battered, bruised, pushed to the breaking point, and everything in between.

This has happened fairly consistently pretty much since his solo comic started. He just doesn't fight as well on his own as he does when he's on a team. I figure it's because he still fights like he does when on a team, which doesn't work as well when the back-up isn't there.

Nightwing is intended to be a very human character. Yes, he's a hero. But he struggles constantly with that role. He can fail. He can fall. And he can pick himself back up and continue trying to live some semblance of a normal life.

He's not Superman. He's better.

[Captain Jim]

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2009/01/22/comic-book-legends-revealed-191/

Wow, I had not seen that (Winick's involvement) anywhere else. I guess that lends credence to the theory that Dick seemed kind of "off" in Outsiders at the beginning of OYL because this was originally supposed to be Jason.

[LordSMVS]

In terms of Dick never really defeating Blockbuster, I don't agree with this. Dixon clearly was trying to set Blockbuster up to be like Marvel's Kingpin. How often does any hero really beat the crap out of Kingpin? The way those characters get defeated is by ruining their plans, something Dick did time and time again. Plus Nightwing real villain in his series was Bludhaven itself. The city really didn't want to be saved for too many people gained by keeping the status quo. He not only had to defeat the mobsters, super villains, assassins and even the cops, but he had to convince the people they were worth saving.

Yep, you need some crazy stuff like "Back in Black" for the Kingpin to get the stuffing knocked outta him.

[carabas]

Wow, I had not seen that (Winick's involvement) anywhere else. I guess that lends credence to the theory that Dick seemed kind of "off" in Outsiders at the beginning of OYL because this was originally supposed to be Jason.This always seemed pretty obvious to me. I just didn't think it was his own idea.
Pitty. If there ever was a good role for Todd in a somewhat heroic role, it would have been as leader of the Outsiders.

[Godlike13]

Not at the expense of Grayson.

[AiyokuSama]

Not at the expense of Grayson.

Certainly not. But there are countless ways it could have been accomplished without requiring that Dick die.

[Jorriss]

Not at the expense of Grayson.
At the expense of Grayson in that role, maybe.

[Captain Jim]

What's really sad is that I think Winick's version of Outsiders (the line-up anyway) was more interesting than what's being published now.