Sorcerer Supreme, Scientist Supreme

[wayfarejourneyman]

Ok, so now Hank Pym is the Scientist Supreme, Dr. Voodoo is the Sorcerer Supreme, and Marvel needs to do some house keeping.

Is the office of Sorceror Supreme a universal title, or a planetary one? Also, is there a morality component -- Dr. Strange gave up his title because he felt he wasn't aligned with good, but characters like Dr. Doom, Loki, and the Hood showed the capacity to be the sorcerer.

Any theories what the capabilities of the Scientist Supreme might be?

[Dog]

Isn't "Scientist Supreme" a designation used by A.I.M.?

[wayfarejourneyman]

Isn't "Scientist Supreme" a designation used by A.I.M.?

Ummm...Maybe? This came from eternity, though.

[RBishop]

The title of Sorcerer Supreme is dimensional, with each dimension having its own.

No morality component involved. Dr. Strange gave it up because he no longer felt worthy due to tapping into forces he believed he should not have, not because violated some clause in his contract. I think it would be possible for an evil-aligned character (to steal from Dungeons & Dragons parlance) to be Sorcerer Supreme as long as they proved themselves worthy to defend their dimension from mystical threats.

Dr. Doom, Loki and the Hood didn't really show the capacity or worthiness to hold the title, but rather the inclination to fight for it and its trappings (such as the Eye of Agomotto); they believed it was something that could be won, rather than something that was to be bestowed.

[XPac]

I've heard Sorcerer Supreme being refered to in the context of dimensions. Strange is the sorcerer supreme for this dimension. I'm not sure exactly what the difference is between a universe and a dimension... maybe it's the same thing.

But Eterntity did specifically say that earth's scientist supreme.

[Shellhead]

Yandroth used to be the Scientist Supreme. I wonder who was Scientist Supreme after Yandroth and before Pym. And I would love to see somebody really creative give us a villainous Scientist Supreme from another dimension.

[brundlefly]

Isn't "Scientist Supreme" a designation used by A.I.M.?

It is, and they've been using it for a good while now. Are they able to send Eternity and Pym a cease-and-desist?

BTW, nice Chance avatar, Dog. And here I thought I was his only fan...:biggrin:

[wayfarejourneyman]

"Earth's scientist supreme" kind of threw me off when I saw it on the boards. Sort of reminds me of the Cipher in the Newuniversal series. I actually think Pym makes a good choice, though -- he's created artifical intelligence that was self motivated and potent enough to take over the phalanx by sheer willpower. I doubt Danger or even Ultrons lesser creations (the Vision, Victor Mancha) could have accomplished that.

My only question -- why not Reed Richards?

[MichaelChen]

He didn't really create Ultron. He reverse engineered Dragon Man, and the result was a crude tankbot nowhere near as good as Dragon Man. Pym created Ultron the same way Osborne created his armor.

[DarienA]

I just prefer to pretend this whole Scientist Supreme thing never happened....

[Monty_Cristo]

magic is a science. so shouldn't Stephen Strange or Jericho Drumm (technically) be scientist supreme?

[Monty_Cristo]

other people who could or should be Scientist Supreme

. Reed Richards
. Doom
. High Evolutionary

[CSG]

Scientist Supreme? I thought it was just a self-appointed title by Yandroth when he fought Strange? Or at least he was called like that once in another dimension.

[Hrist]

Dr. Doom, Loki and the Hood didn't really show the capacity or worthiness to hold the title, but rather the inclination to fight for it and its trappings (such as the Eye of Agomotto); they believed it was something that could be won, rather than something that was to be bestowed.

Loki can't be Sorcerer Supreme, he's from Asgard, and Asgard doesn't have one. The Hood has no real knowledge, he's just posessed by Dormammu, who's always after stuff that Strange has, and Doom did fight for the title in that Vishanti-sponsored contest, so I think he does actually know what the job entails. But Doom's too arrogant for the job, he could never allow someone to bestow him power.

[Blind pugh]

Wasn't the guy who gave Slapstick his powers the scientist supreme of his dimension?

[Monty_Cristo]

Wasn't the guy who gave Slapstick his powers the scientist supreme of his dimension?

he got his certification on-line.

[Iron Theurge]

hank's one to screw it up anyway. Marvel has a history of dumping on Mr. Pym, so no doubt he'll rue the day he tries to claim the title of Scientist Supreme ..... probably well after Slott leaves MA.

In the meantime, I thought it was a cool issue. One of the best Avengers' stories this year.

IT

[StoneGold]

I'm still guessing this is all somehow another joke on Hank.

[AdamYJ]

"Earth's scientist supreme" kind of threw me off when I saw it on the boards. Sort of reminds me of the Cipher in the Newuniversal series. I actually think Pym makes a good choice, though -- he's created artifical intelligence that was self motivated and potent enough to take over the phalanx by sheer willpower. I doubt Danger or even Ultrons lesser creations (the Vision, Victor Mancha) could have accomplished that.

My only question -- why not Reed Richards?

Apparently, Reed has his own designation as "the explorer" because he's most interested in disovery and Tony Stark's designated "the engineer" because he uses science to shape the world and his own destiny. According to Eternity, Pym is "the mage". This being because Pym just uses science for the sake of making impossible things possible. Apparently, one of the qualifications for being Scientist Supreme is that you have to do super-science practically just for the heck of it.

[Monty_Cristo]

Apparently, Reed has his own designation as "the explorer" because he's most interested in disovery and Tony Stark's designated "the engineer" because he uses science to shape the world and his own destiny. According to Eternity, Pym is "the mage". This being because Pym just uses science for the sake of making impossible things possible. Apparently, one of the qualifications for being Scientist Supreme is that you have to do super-science practically just for the heck of it.

Reed Richards does do super-science just for the heck of it. H.E.R.B.I.E, anyone?

[Cthulhudrew]

As RBishop pointed out, each dimension seemingly has its own Sorcerer Supreme. The Ancient One, then Dr. Strange, and now Brother (not Doctor, dangit!) Voodoo are or have been the Earth dimension's most recent Sorcerers Supreme, with the alien Krugarr being Dr. Strange's successor in at least one alternate future (the Guardians of the Galaxy future).

Strange's wife, Clea, is SS of the Dark Dimension (though both Dormammu and his sister, Umar, have both held the title at times). Professor Imam was the SS of the Squadron Supreme dimension, and was succeeded by Mysterium (Arcanna Jones' youngest kid). The alien Urthona was the Sorcerer Supreme of his dimension, IIRC, and I've always suspected (though I don't think it was ever stated) that the character Darklore from Infinity Watch was supposed to be the Sorcerer Supreme of his dimension.

Yandroth is the Scientist Supreme of his dimension, which I've always presumed meant that- in his dimension- science held the role of magic in the 616 dimension (ie, magic is "natural" and science is "mystical and little understood"), but I could be very wrong about that (having only read about Yandroth in the Order and the recent Last Defenders). Hank Pym is seemingly the first Scientist Supreme of the Earth Dimension.

As for what comprises a dimension? The OHOTMU Deluxe Edition had this ever so helpful definition:

"A universe or realm containing space, matter, and energy which is separated from our own universe by some physical difference in the space, matter, and energy itself."

Yeah- not really useful. Some of the realms it identified as other dimensions included:

Alfheim, Asgard, Avalon, The Dark Dimension, Earth-Squadron, etc.

[Godlike13]

He didn't really create Ultron. He reverse engineered Dragon Man, and the result was a crude tankbot nowhere near as good as Dragon Man. Pym created Ultron the same way Osborne created his armor.

What Pym created Ultron, that artificial intelligence was all Pym.

[Sighphi]

Ok, so now Hank Pym is the Scientist Supreme, Dr. Voodoo is the Sorcerer Supreme, and Marvel needs to do some house keeping.

Is the office of Sorceror Supreme a universal title, or a planetary one? Also, is there a morality component -- Dr. Strange gave up his title because he felt he wasn't aligned with good, but characters like Dr. Doom, Loki, and the Hood showed the capacity to be the sorcerer.

Any theories what the capabilities of the Scientist Supreme might be?

Sorcerer Supreme's job is to protect this realm from attacks from other realms, so yes the SS covers this whole universe/Dimension/Reality.

Strange gave up his title because of bad writing and that is completely it.

[Iron Maiden]

Apparently, Reed has his own designation as "the explorer" because he's most interested in disovery and Tony Stark's designated "the engineer" because he uses science to shape the world and his own destiny. According to Eternity, Pym is "the mage". This being because Pym just uses science for the sake of making impossible things possible. Apparently, one of the qualifications for being Scientist Supreme is that you have to do super-science practically just for the heck of it.

Meh....when I read the explanation Slott had Eternity, that Pym is a "mage" it really sounded like such a load. Doom is the only one of the group that literally combines the two disciplines of science and sorcery. I am looking forward to seeing more examples of this in Doomwar because Maberry has said he's going to show how Doom merges both in some of his arsenal. When Arnim Zola was trying to reverse engineer the chronotech they got from Doom, he told the Red Skull he was having problems because it was not strictly a creation of science. He also used what he called geosorcerous engineering to move Franklin's planet out of the pocket dimension.

[Hrist]

As RBishop pointed out, each dimension seemingly has its own Sorcerer Supreme.

This isn't quite true. While Sorcerer Supreme is definitely a dimensional title, and other dimensions have other Sorcerer Supremes, not every dimension has one. Like I said, Asgard doesn't, presumably because everyone there is magical enough that they don't need the Vishanti to protect them from interdimensional mystic threats? I imagine there are other dimensions that fit this profile.

[Monty_Cristo]

Meh....when I read the explanation Slott had Eternity, that Pym is a "mage" it really sounded like such a load. Doom is the only one of the group that literally combines the two disciplines of science and sorcery. I am looking forward to seeing more examples of this in Doomwar because Maberry has said he's going to show how Doom merges both in some of his arsenal. When Arnim Zola was trying to reverse engineer the chronotech they got from Doom, he told the Red Skull he was having problems because it was not strictly a creation of science. He also used what he called geosorcerous engineering to move Franklin's planet out of the pocket dimension.

LOL! Doom has been upstaged!

[Iron Maiden]

I don't think the Negative Zone has a Sorceror Supreme but I'm not sure if that's considered a dimension.

[Sighphi]

This isn't quite true. While Sorcerer Supreme is definitely a dimensional title, and other dimensions have other Sorcerer Supremes, not every dimension has one. Like I said, Asgard doesn't, presumably because everyone there is magical enough that they don't need the Vishanti to protect them from interdimensional mystic threats? I imagine there are other dimensions that fit this profile.

I don't think the Negative Zone has a Sorceror Supreme but I'm not sure if that's considered a dimension.

Both those are side dimensions tied to 616.
So they fall under Strange's domain as well.

[Godlike13]

Meh....when I read the explanation Slott had Eternity, that Pym is a "mage" it really sounded like such a load. Doom is the only one of the group that literally combines the two disciplines of science and sorcery. I am looking forward to seeing more examples of this in Doomwar because Maberry has said he's going to show how Doom merges both in some of his arsenal. When Arnim Zola was trying to reverse engineer the chronotech they got from Doom, he told the Red Skull he was having problems because it was not strictly a creation of science. He also used what he called geosorcerous engineering to move Franklin's planet out of the pocket dimension.

See but thats why Doom shouldn't get it. He sees science as science and magic as magic, two different disciplines. Pym sees it all as science, to him even magic is just unexplained science.

[Godlike13]

Reed Richards does do super-science just for the heck of it. H.E.R.B.I.E, anyone?

Certain cars have H.E.R.B.I.E these days.

[Paul Siu]

What if Pym is just tripping on bad Pym particles. The whole exchange is sort of goofy. When does Eternity go around bitch-slapping people?

If a Sorcerer Supreme guard against magical threats, what does a Scientist Supreme do? Does he or she guard against green house gas? Would you give the job to the guy who invented Ultron?

Paul

[Scavenger]

What if Pym is just tripping on bad Pym particles. The whole exchange is sort of goofy. When does Eternity go around bitch-slapping people?


That is something I'm concidering too.

[Ofpromise]

Meh....when I read the explanation Slott had Eternity, that Pym is a "mage" it really sounded like such a load. Doom is the only one of the group that literally combines the two disciplines of science and sorcery. I am looking forward to seeing more examples of this in Doomwar because Maberry has said he's going to show how Doom merges both in some of his arsenal. When Arnim Zola was trying to reverse engineer the chronotech they got from Doom, he told the Red Skull he was having problems because it was not strictly a creation of science. He also used what he called geosorcerous engineering to move Franklin's planet out of the pocket dimension.

I agree. If we are handing out trophies to every character-hero that is good at something, then surely the master of all arts- DOOM should come out on top.

[CyberHubbs]

What if Pym is just tripping on bad Pym particles. The whole exchange is sort of goofy. When does Eternity go around bitch-slapping people?

If a Sorcerer Supreme guard against magical threats, what does a Scientist Supreme do? Does he or she guard against green house gas? Would you give the job to the guy who invented Ultron?

Paul

Strange was a bit of a dick before he became Sorcerer Supreme.

Pym has hit rock bottom, he knows all about how hubris can lead to wild, dangerous science. But he's actively tried to better himself.

As the saying goes, "Would you take tips on controlling alcoholism from a guy that's never drank a drop?"

[Hrist]

Strange was a bit of a dick before he became Sorcerer Supreme.

Yeah, but he undickified before he became Sorcerer Supreme. It went like this:

Dick --> Rock Bottom --> Training/Apprenticeship --> Eventually Gaining Confidence and Wisdom --> Sorcerer Supreme

It did not go:

Dick --> Dick with Science --> Low Self-Esteem --> Eternity Gives Title as Pick-Me-Up.

Granted, there's nothing saying the Sorcerer Supreme can't be a dick, or even an outright villain. So.

Both those are side dimensions tied to 616.
So they fall under Strange's domain as well.

Where did this info come from? I'd think that the Dark Dimension would fall under the same category, but they have a SS.

[CyberHubbs]

Yeah, but he undickified before he became Sorcerer Supreme. It went like this:

Dick --> Rock Bottom --> Training/Apprenticeship --> Eventually Gaining Confidence and Wisdom --> Sorcerer Supreme

It did not go:

Dick --> Dick with Science --> Low Self-Esteem --> Eternity Gives Title as Pick-Me-Up.

I'd argue that you can cram rock bottom somewhere in there between low self-esteem and Eternity gives title as pick-me-up, with maybe gaining confidence/wisdom before Eternity also.

[Iron Maiden]

See but thats why Doom shouldn't get it. He sees science as science and magic as magic, two different disciplines. Pym sees it all as science, to him even magic is just unexplained science.

That explanation doesn't work for me. If I a person from that isolated tribe on New Guinea saw a flat panel TV it would be magic to him but that still doesn't make it magic. It's still a product of technology that they are not able to comphrehend given their limited exposure to the modern world.

Marvel has pretty much recognized that magic has its own properties and laws. Doom approaches magic the same as he does science, something that can be studied, mastered and used as a tool. Hank does not have the skills or knowledge to use both interchangeably.

[Sillia]

Dick --> Dick with Science --> Low Self-Esteem --> Eternity Gives Title as Pick-Me-Up.

In this particular case, it appears to be more like:

Step 1. Dick
Step 2. Dick with Science
Step 3. Low Self Esteem
Step 4. Kidnapped and replaced by skrull for several years.
Step 5. ....
Step 6. Scientist Supreme!

--S

[daveageallen]

In this particular case, it appears to be more like:

Step 1. Dick
Step 2. Dick with Science
Step 3. Low Self Esteem
Step 4. Kidnapped and replaced by skrull for several years.
Step 5. ....
Step 6. Scientist Supreme!

--S

#5 could be how eternity explained it. pym stopped the chaos wave that would have destroyed the universe . he called it a cancer to him.

[Iron Maiden]

I remember there was a Chaos Wave that was going to engulf the galaxy and it was caused by the Dreaming Celestial way back in Claremont's FF 24-25 v.3Reed and Doom teaming up stopped him.

[Monty_Cristo]

Eric O'Grady should quickly snatch up the title of Nacho Supreme; to keep up with his predecessor.

[MichaelChen]

Doom approaches magic the same as he does science, something that can be studied, mastered and used as a tool. Hank does not have the skills or knowledge to use both interchangeably.

Yes, and this is the main reason he can never be as powerful as Doc Strange, because he fails to recognize that magic has a strong spiritual component and is as much art as science. In fact Doom is the antithesis of the Mage in the context that Eternity was saying it. Doom tries to crush magic into being a science with only middling success. Pym treats science as something magical and wondrous.

[daveageallen]

Yes, and this is the main reason he can never be as powerful as Doc Strange, because he fails to recognize that magic has a strong spiritual component and is as much art as science. In fact Doom is the antithesis of the Mage in the context that Eternity was saying it. Doom tries to crush magic into being a science with only middling success. Pym treats science as something magical and wondrous.

yeah but DOOM is a tool, and a burn victim and thats just gross.