Thunderbolts #137 *Spoilers*

[god of fear]

Ouch! Really bad review on CBR

[Jimmy Holograph]

Ouch! Really bad review on CBR

Having read the issue earlier today, I'd have to agree on many of the points made in the review.

[god of fear]

Having read the issue earlier today, I'd have to agree on many of the points made in the review.

That sucks since for the second week in a row I have nothing to pick up and was kinda looking forward to this Rand, Cage story. Oh well il hold out till next week when I do have books to buy at my LCS and flip thru this thunderbolts issue and see if I for some reason may like it.

[rogerio]

Having read the issue earlier today, I'd have to agree on many of the points made in the review.

me too.:biggrin:

[Pixie_Solanas]

Good hell ,the art was terrible. Just terrible.

[Monty_Cristo]

Ouch! Really bad review on CBR

doesn't surprise me. i didn't like the issue and i'm a T-bolts cheerleader. i wish they had the balls to call this issue what it was; a Luke Cage/Iron Fist one-shot. it's an insult to call it a t-bolts book. they were guest-stars. and this was probably the worst that i've seen Ant-Man written. he actually annoyed me, this issue. and, just to be anal (pun intended), that was a misrepresentation of his powers at the end. issue 3 of Irredeemable Ant-Man showed quite clearly that liquids (and other stuff) do not enlarge with him. he should have been practically dry when he grew back to normal size; just like when he was covered in blood at ant size.

to find a positive in all of this, it was a fill-in issue. Remender's not the new writer of Thunderbolts. this standalone issue means nothing. just furthers the subplot that the Thunderbolts aren't all on Norman's side. i'll leave the artist alone.

P.S. Paladin is, once again, a glorified punching bag. and Mister X's dialogue was way off.

[Pixie_Solanas]

doesn't surprise me. i didn't like the issue and i'm a T-bolts cheerleader. i wish they had the balls to call this issue what it was; a Luke Cage/Iron Fist one-shot. it's an insult to call it a t-bolts book. they were guest-stars. and this was probably the worst that i've seen Ant-Man written. he actually annoyed me, this issue. and, just to be anal (pun intended), that was a misrepresentation of his powers at the end. issue 3 of Irredeemable Ant-Man showed quite clearly that liquids (and other stuff) do not enlarge with him. he should have been practically dry when he grew back to normal size; just like when he was covered in blood at ant size.

to find a positive in all of this, it was a fill-in issue. Remender's not the new writer of Thunderbolts. this standalone issue means nothing. just furthers the subplot that the Thunderbolts aren't all on Norman's side. i'll leave the artist alone.

P.S. Paladin is, once again, a glorified punching bag. and Mister X's dialogue was way off.

Even Ghost's anti-corporate ideology, fostered to great effect under Diggle, sounded half-assed under Remender. Yuck. And really, was Eric O'Grady ever such a frat boy fool? I think not. Broseph. Come on.

And the art. Good hell, the art. Fill-in work to a subpar extreme.

[god of fear]

Well by the looks of it I'll be staying away from this issue. Too bad, they shoulda got the writer and artist from the Iron Fist ongoing that recently got cancelled.

[Monty_Cristo]

Even Ghost's anti-corporate ideology, fostered to great effect under Diggle, sounded half-assed under Remender. Yuck. And really, was Eric O'Grady ever such a frat boy fool? I think not. Broseph. Come on.

And the art. Good hell, the art. Fill-in work to a subpar extreme.

i can't remember Eric ever talking like that before. he's a deuchebag. but his deuchebaggery sounds different. it's hard to explain but he's normally funnier/wittier than that. and the only tv he's ever mentioned was 'Chuck' (offering Taskmaster his ipod). his brosephness was just plain forced. and Mister X's dialogue used to be a little more polished. that said, Ghost at least came off as somewhat competent in this issue. but he normally comes off well. i thought it was ridiculous how Iron Fist and Cage chased him down w/ the intentions of roughing him up. puh-leaze. how do you physically intimidate an intangible opponent?

[Monty_Cristo]

Well by the looks of it I'll be staying away from this issue. Too bad, they shoulda got the writer and artist from the Iron Fist ongoing that recently got cancelled.

why waste him on a fill-in issue? if anything, this should have been one of the Dark Reign: The List oneshots (maybe for Iron Fist).

[James Conniff]

A fun issue but I had some issues with it. The art was passable but nothing real special, some interesting panals during the fight scenes. The writing was okay, fine for a done in one Luke Cage Iron Fist team up issue, but the mind controlled superhero story, while a staple of the genre wasn't quite what I was hoping for here. I figured it would be Osborn holding Misty hostage that would allow him to hold sway over Danny. And as soon as she were rescued Fist would switch back to the good side of things and rough the TBolts up, but using danny;s chi as an out for the mind control works well, and great continuity references mentioning Danny being able to cure cancer with his Chi. Some fun fight scenes and a Fist Cage Dark reign story. Worth my 4 bucks but I am a big Fist fan.
One dork nit to pick: If my memory serves me some continuity isn't quite lining up here. Danny is shwon in the story doing work for Rand Corp, which has been pretty much dissmantled by Danny and Hydra by the point in time he knew about Misty's Pregnancy that Cage referenced. But I'd have to go back and reread the last issue of Fist's last series to be certain.

[Gitaroo_Dude]

This was awful.

Ant-Man calling everyone a "bro" wasn't funny or clever. Way too forced to make him seem like a douche frat boy. Mr. X came across as way too big of an idiot compared to the more calculating villain that Diggle made him out to be. And Scourge just spoke in dumb military slogans. Basically every character was written dumber than they normally are and the book was dumber because of it.

And the art... yeah, I'll just agree with everyone and else and say it was sub-par even by fill-in standards.

Seriously disappointed. Loved Remender on Punisher and Voodoo but this came across really, really badly.

[Monty_Cristo]

another thing i noticed, Danny and Luke didn't seem to like each other. i don't think they had an exchange w/o one insulting the other. i'm all for playful barbs but really? shouldn't they have just been dissing their opponents? and was Ghost the one that teleported (is that what that platform was?) them out of the base? that was awfully bold.

[The Cool Thatguy]

This was awful.

Ant-Man calling everyone a "bro" wasn't funny or clever. Way too forced to make him seem like a douche frat boy. Mr. X came across as way too big of an idiot compared to the more calculating villain that Diggle made him out to be. And Scourge just spoke in dumb military slogans. Basically every character was written dumber than they normally are and the book was dumber because of it.

And the art... yeah, I'll just agree with everyone and else and say it was sub-par even by fill-in standards.

Seriously disappointed. Loved Remender on Punisher and Voodoo but this came across really, really badly.

That's actually pretty standard with the character.

[Gitaroo_Dude]

That's actually pretty standard with the character.

I know, Diggle did the same thing. It's hard to explain, but the way Remender used it seemed much dumber even if it's a silly gimmick to begin with. Like when Diggle used it it made sense, and when Remender did it was goofy. If that makes sense.

[Monty_Cristo]

I know, Diggle did the same thing. It's hard to explain, but the way Remender used it seemed much dumber even if it's a silly gimmick to begin with. Like when Diggle used it it made sense, and when Remender did it was goofy. If that makes sense.

yeah i had to reread the "gunnery sergeant" comment Scourge made a couple times. it seemed so out of place.

[Kyle Taylor]

This issue sucked. Horrible art but worst of all horrible dialogue. SWEET CHRISTMAS! The biggest highlight was antman walking away covered in shit after Luke Cage shat him out. Hopefully this book isn't going to get all lame now.

[Monty_Cristo]

they totally ripped that idea off of Squadron Supreme (Tom Thumb was inserted into The Shape's @$$ for a mission).

[lobsterj]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought this sucked. And why was it 38 pages long? Did this story really call for it? I can only assume this was some kind of special that got bumped to the main title due to scheduling issues with the regular writers. This just sucked. I hate feeling ripped off.

[Gitaroo_Dude]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought this sucked. And why was it 38 pages long? Did this story really call for it? I can only assume this was some kind of special that got bumped to the main title due to scheduling issues with the regular writers. This just sucked. I hate feeling ripped off.

I actually liked the length. I mean, yeah, it was an extra serving of bad dialogue and art, but the story struck me as one that a writer like Bendis could have easily dragged out to 3 or 4 issues. At least Remender did it in a way that struck me as something meant to be an Annual but got placed into the regular series.

So, I guess I'm saying that I'm thankful they kept it as a done-in-one.

[Jimmy Holograph]

A fun issue but I had some issues with it. The art was passable but nothing real special, some interesting panals during the fight scenes. The writing was okay, fine for a done in one Luke Cage Iron Fist team up issue, but the mind controlled superhero story, while a staple of the genre wasn't quite what I was hoping for here. I figured it would be Osborn holding Misty hostage that would allow him to hold sway over Danny. And as soon as she were rescued Fist would switch back to the good side of things and rough the TBolts up, but using danny;s chi as an out for the mind control works well, and great continuity references mentioning Danny being able to cure cancer with his Chi. Some fun fight scenes and a Fist Cage Dark reign story. Worth my 4 bucks but I am a big Fist fan.
One dork nit to pick: If my memory serves me some continuity isn't quite lining up here. Danny is shwon in the story doing work for Rand Corp, which has been pretty much dissmantled by Danny and Hydra by the point in time he knew about Misty's Pregnancy that Cage referenced. But I'd have to go back and reread the last issue of Fist's last series to be certain.

It referenced Danny trying to rebuild Rand Corp, so he was trying to find investors. Which would have been a neat little plot point, despite it completely went against Danny's characterisation in IIF. Because he DOESN'T want to rebuild it and was in the process of giving it all away before it got taken over then destroyed by Hydra. And how the tower got rebuilt is anyones guess. Remender pretty much ignored every characters characterisation in this.

[ANewHope]

I went into this thinking that Luke Cage had been compromised. Especially with the ending of New Avengers 57, with Cage having heart problems and giving himself up to Osborn to let his teammates escape.

So I was like, what the hell is going on? For the first 15 pages, had to re-read them.

I enjoyed the art, but Ant-Man simply wasn't funny. At least what he was scripted to say wasn't funny. So in that regard, it was dissapointing.

[Monty_Cristo]

I went into this thinking that Luke Cage had been compromised. Especially with the ending of New Avengers 57, with Cage having heart problems and giving himself up to Osborn to let his teammates escape.

So I was like, what the hell is going on? For the first 15 pages, had to re-read them.

I enjoyed the art, but Ant-Man simply wasn't funny. At least what he was scripted to say wasn't funny. So in that regard, it was dissapointing.

very disappointing. but all of the jokes were flat, imo; not just ant-man's. and i wonder if this takes place before Cage's heart problems. i also wonder why Ant-Man's attacking him from the inside wasn't enough to take him down. his outsides are steel-hard; not his stomach. heck, Eric could have traveled into his heart or brain and killed him, as well.

[stingerman]

I enjoyed it, however I am not a regular Thunderbolts reader.

Thought the extended pages thing was nice for a change.

[ANewHope]

I read the issue a second time, and ignored everything that Antman had to say. What actually happened in this story was cool, but how it was written was lame.

The dialogue is off on all the characters. But if nothing else, at least Antman was funny. Not because of what he said, but what happened to him. Luke Cage's digestion problems and the Thunderbolts ditching him during dinner for talking excessively.

[BlkPanther35]

I enjoyed it, however I am not a regular Thunderbolts reader.

Thought the extended pages thing was nice for a change.

I agree completely....I have been a Cage/Fist fan for ages, and it was nice seeing them get an extended team up issue. First issue of Thunderbolts i've read so I don't have the frame of reference on the other characters.

And yeah, extended pages = a good thing, especially after the "Hulk: The List" I also bought seemed so flimsy.

[jackolover]

why waste him on a fill-in issue? if anything, this should have been one of the Dark Reign: The List oneshots (maybe for Iron Fist).

Took the words right out of my mouth.

Unlike most, I liked this issue BECAUSE it felt like a LIST book. I liked that Osborn tried to brain wash Danny Rand. Danny's takedown? Could this happen? I liked that they ran this scenario over and over till they got percentages of how many kills Danny could do. (This felt like a Spider-Man story, as Danny was captured earlier and the story starts in the middle).

I liked that Remenders style came through in this, and it made me remember the Punisher issues by him. There were a few continuity moments I wasn't sure how we got there, like when Danny came to the dinner table. I liked the way Danny took down Luke. Does Danny always talk down to Luke like that, saying Luke is the dumber of the two, and how Danny is the token White boy and such. I felt that was demeaning for Luke, or is this their own sick banter?

I was sure Danny had killed Luke when the last blow came. I did not see Danny's Chi reversing his mind bendedness. Also, how the TBolts took down Luke seemed a little off. A biological disruptor? You're making this up Remender.

The art was fine. I never heard of these 3 artists before, but I wasn't disappointed at all. The panels of Dannys fist hitting Luke were punishing and almost Gene Colan like.

Now for a few questions. I did not understand what was happening when Paladan turned the CCTV away and the bracelets opened for Cage to escape. I thought Paladan made that happen. Was it Ant-Man? Was it Ghost? That whole scene where Paladan was going to make Cage pay seemed false, because what could Paladan do, anyway? And Luke at no stage during capture was concerned, or is this just Cage? And the voice telling Cage directions, I couldn't decide if it was Ant-Man or the Ghost. I'm thinking this was orchestrated by the Ghost. Am I right, because I just don't know what happened. And what was with Ant-Man appearing at the eatery? Did Luke pee him out, and that's why he was wet? I didn't get this. Why did Eric slink away, and not explain himself the the New Avengers? Was it because he was honestly trying to take them both down, and made a drastic error thinking he could burst out of Cage?

[Pixie_Solanas]

This most CERTAINLY should have been classified as a "LIST" title.

That way, I could have skipped over it with the greatest of ease. Thanks Marvel, I will get you back for the wasted 3.99 (ouch).

[strathcona]

I thought it was a reasonable fill-in issue. Kept the plot line of some of the T-Bolt's working against Osborn going (can't wait to see how Parker handles this). And it was a fun Iron Fist/Luke Cage story... we don't see enough of them together anymore. I wish they would get a new ongoing together.

[Big Red Spider]

Was it 3.99 because of the extra pages or is that the new base price for this book?

I flipped through it and it looked pretty bad. When I seen it was 3.99 I decided to get Mighty instead. I may go back and pick it up now that I hear there was some ant-man moments.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Was it 3.99 because of the extra pages or is that the new base price for this book?

I flipped through it and it looked pretty bad. When I seen it was 3.99 I decided to get Mighty instead. I may go back and pick it up now that I hear there was some ant-man moments.

Unless Ant-Man speaking in "broseph" tones, blabbering on about Jon and Kate, or being shitted out of Luke Cage's ass float your boat, i'd skip it.

[Claret & Blue]

Very Very disappointed with this issue , Diggle had given the T-Bolts a pace and direction , that has kept me enthralled , and not by using gimmicks either the plot was built up piece by piece.

My heart leapt when I picked up the issue , what , my fave pairing of PM & IF in the T-Bolts ? Wunderbar!

Then I started reading , it immediatley felt like I had missed an issue , and boy wasnt Diggle writing crap this month.

Then I realised it wasnt by Diggle , the PM & IF was a hype , all characterisations were different from the previous 6 issues what a waste of time.

Some one tell me Diggle hasnt left the book.

[Big Red Spider]

Unless Ant-Man speaking in "broseph" tones, blabbering on about Jon and Kate, or being shitted out of Luke Cage's ass float your boat, i'd skip it.

I love Jon and Kate jokes, but being shitted doesn't sound very fun.


Some one tell me Diggle hasnt left the book.

Sorry. Can't do that. But you can check him out in Daredevil.

[Claret & Blue]

Oh well T-Bolts loss is DD's gain.

I didnt appreciate the sneaky $3.99 on this below par issue either .

[Monty_Cristo]

Unless Ant-Man speaking in "broseph" tones, blabbering on about Jon and Kate, or being shitted out of Luke Cage's ass float your boat, i'd skip it.

good lord that was annoying.

[Monty_Cristo]

Now for a few questions. I did not understand what was happening when Paladan turned the CCTV away and the bracelets opened for Cage to escape. I thought Paladan made that happen. Was it Ant-Man? Was it Ghost? That whole scene where Paladan was going to make Cage pay seemed false, because what could Paladan do, anyway? And Luke at no stage during capture was concerned, or is this just Cage? And the voice telling Cage directions, I couldn't decide if it was Ant-Man or the Ghost. I'm thinking this was orchestrated by the Ghost. Am I right, because I just don't know what happened. And what was with Ant-Man appearing at the eatery? Did Luke pee him out, and that's why he was wet? I didn't get this. Why did Eric slink away, and not explain himself the the New Avengers? Was it because he was honestly trying to take them both down, and made a drastic error thinking he could burst out of Cage?

i wish i could answer all of your questions but either the art or the storytelling makes it impossible. i can tell you that Paladin didn't free Cage from the cuffs and that Ghost admitted to doing this later in the story. i can tell you that Cage shat Ant-Man out and that he was covered with feces at the end of the story. the rest is up in the air.

P.S. Paladin has been using a "biological disruptor (aka a stun gun) since the 70s. and it didn't take Cage out. that's how Paladin got his face broken. i'm surprised he would be so sloppy.

[Will.S]

Well, I'm glad I decided not to pick this issue up.

[Monty_Cristo]

it occurred to me that they chose a really stupid way to take Cage down. why not just send Iron Fist to meet up with him at the restaraunt/attack him? they weren't exactly keeping a low profile by having Paladin go in there and zap him. remember that earlier they killed Rand's secretary and whoever drove the t-bolts to the officce building. seems strange.

[Pixie_Solanas]

"The Buy Pile" has it as a good issue. lol. One of the redeeming features was that Luke Cage has an EPMD hat.
.

Srsly, wtf?

[Monty_Cristo]

"The Buy Pile" has it as a good issue. lol. One of the redeeming features was that Luke Cage has an EPMD hat.
.

Srsly, wtf?

i'm out of the loop. what does EPMD stand for?

[Pixie_Solanas]

i'm out of the loop. what does EPMD stand for?

Some old school rap group. I guess Luke's trying to be down now, out goes the tiara in comes the old school hip hop hat.

[jackolover]

i wish i could answer all of your questions but either the art or the storytelling makes it impossible. i can tell you that Paladin didn't free Cage from the cuffs and that Ghost admitted to doing this later in the story. i can tell you that Cage shat Ant-Man out and that he was covered with feces at the end of the story. the rest is up in the air.

P.S. Paladin has been using a "biological disruptor (aka a stun gun) since the 70s. and it didn't take Cage out. that's how Paladin got his face broken. i'm surprised he would be so sloppy.

Thank you. Thank is a disgusting way for Ant-Man to make a living. So Ant-Man wasn't helping and Ghost was. Got it.

And the Paladan disruptor I can't hang on Remender, sorry pal.

[Monty_Cristo]

Some old school rap group. I guess Luke's trying to be down now, out goes the tiara in comes the old school hip hop hat.

ahhh. i knew that looked familiar. that reminds me. Luke was awful calm about having a shrunken mercenary in his stomach. he seemed to have forgotten all about it by the end of the story. guess he wasn't worried about Ant-Man freeing himself once they were back at their secret base; around his wife and child.

[jackolover]

it occurred to me that they chose a really stupid way to take Cage down. why not just send Iron Fist to meet up with him at the restaraunt/attack him? they weren't exactly keeping a low profile by having Paladin go in there and zap him. remember that earlier they killed Rand's secretary and whoever drove the t-bolts to the officce building. seems strange.

Thanks for bringing that up. That HAMMER bitch slit Rand's secretarys throat, then Osborn asked her to kill everyone in the Rand company who spoke to Danny in the last 3 hours. We don't get introduced to her, and she is the most influential character in the book. She is better than Typhoid Mary from the Shadow Initiative, and who is she, killing on an order? Remender?

[Monty_Cristo]

Thank you. Thank is a disgusting way for Ant-Man to make a living. So Ant-Man wasn't helping and Ghost was. Got it.

And the Paladan disruptor I can't hang on Remender, sorry pal.

what made is confusing was that Ghost (if that was Ghost) wasn't talking how he normally does when he guided Luke into the ventilation system (which turned out to be a trap). he was talking like how i would expect Ant-Man to talk. but i don't think Ant-Man was able to communicate with Luke that way; since he contacted him with a cell phone earlier in the story. so was Ghost trying to help Cage or lead him into a trap?

[Monty_Cristo]

Thanks for bringing that up. That HAMMER bitch slit Rand's secretarys throat, then Osborn asked her to kill everyone in the Rand company who spoke to Danny in the last 3 hours. We don't get introduced to her, and she is the most influential character in the book. She is better than Typhoid Mary from the Shadow Initiative, and who is she, killing on an order? Remender?

ahh but we were introduced. Osborn called her "Agent Choi." she's just a HAMMER agent.

[jackolover]

ahhh. i knew that looked familiar. that reminds me. Luke was awful calm about having a shrunken mercenary in his stomach. he seemed to have forgotten all about it by the end of the story. guess he wasn't worried about Ant-Man freeing himself once they were back at their secret base; around his wife and child.

There were some continuity problems. Something about the story seemed to not fit too well. But like all black ops events, the story doesn't necessarily follow how you intend once the action starts, and not all the t's are crossed and i's dotted, so people tend to miss things in the hurry of the action. Maybe Luke thought his stomach acids would kill Ant-Man?

[Monty_Cristo]

There were some continuity problems. Something about the story seemed to not fit too well. But like all black ops events, the story doesn't necessarily follow how you intend once the action starts, and not all the t's are crossed and i's dotted, so people tend to miss things in the hurry of the action. Maybe Luke thought his stomach acids would kill Ant-Man?

he said that he heard his @$$ screaming. surely that alterted him to the fact that he hadn't seen Ant-man since the moment before the t-bolts tried to capture him. :biggrin:

[jackolover]

what made is confusing was that Ghost (if that was Ghost) wasn't talking how he normally does when he guided Luke into the ventilation system (which turned out to be a trap). he was talking like how i would expect Ant-Man to talk. but i don't think Ant-Man was able to communicate with Luke that way; since he contacted him with a cell phone earlier in the story. so was Ghost trying to help Cage or lead him into a trap?

Ghost did mention there was an issue of trust involved, and that Luke had to make that choice. As to what Ghost achieved, maybe the TBolts were just too good at tracking that Luke got caught up too., despite Ghosts efforts. In any event, Luke seemed to be very relaxed the whole time, like he knew nobody could hurt him. He was far too confident.

And what was all that stuff at the start in the word boxes about brothers, Remender?

[jackolover]

ahh but we were introduced. Osborn called her "Agent Choi." she's just a HAMMER agent.

I am liking her, this Agent Choi, so much. This is cold blooded that we haven't seen unless Punisher is hired by Osborn. I want more of her.

[Monty_Cristo]

I am liking her, this Agent Choi, so much. This is cold blooded that we haven't seen unless Punisher is hired by Osborn. I want more of her.

i wonder if she was named for the artist Mike Choi. or maybe it was just a coincidence.

[The Isolationist]

The first thing that struck me, like several people noted, was Mister X and the way he talked and acted. He often didn't even use full words, and sounded like a crook, not to mention him getting beat up by everyone and even getting blown up. That was a really terrible experience.

The art was worse than the previous one. It wasn't bad, but I'm glad the usual art will be used again.

The size of the issue was a good thing, I always feel that there aren't enough pages in one issue, and this number was just about right.

Ghost seemed girlish.

[Kyle Taylor]

i also wonder why Ant-Man's attacking him from the inside wasn't enough to take him down. his outsides are steel-hard; not his stomach. heck, Eric could have traveled into his heart or brain and killed him, as well.

If his epidermis is hard as steel why wouldn't other dermal tissues through out his body be???

[jackolover]

The first thing that struck me, like several people noted, was Mister X and the way he talked and acted. He often didn't even use full words, and sounded like a crook, not to mention him getting beat up by everyone and even getting blown up. That was a really terrible experience.

The art was worse than the previous one. It wasn't bad, but I'm glad the usual art will be used again.

The size of the issue was a good thing, I always feel that there aren't enough pages in one issue, and this number was just about right.

Ghost seemed girlish.

I appreciated the extra pages. This was $4 and we got $4, and no reprints.

[jackolover]

If his epidermis is hard as steel why wouldn't other dermal tissues through out his body be???

Cage was injured in Secret War, back before Avengers Disassembled, by an explosion that gave him internal injuries, that they couldn't treat because the doctors couldn't deal with his tough skin.

This story didn't go any where that I thought it would go. I thought Luke Cage was injured in New Avengers with the power nullifier, and that because of that, Osborn captured him, and wanted him to work on the TBolts. But this didn't go anywhere like that?

[Monty_Cristo]

If his epidermis is hard as steel why wouldn't other dermal tissues through out his body be???

because only his outside was coated in the chemical. this has come up before in Cage stories. his insides are just like anyone elses.

taken from his handbook profile...

Luke Cage wields considerable super-human strength, endurance, stamina, and healing abilities as a result of the cellular regeneration experiment in which he participated in prison and which the prison guard Captain Rackham sabotaged in an unsuccessful attempt to kill him. Cage's skin is resistant to the damages of bullet and puncture wounds, extreme temperatures, and most types of acids. It is a misconception, however, that Cage is totally invulnerable. His internal organs and skeleton lack the fortitude of his skin, and he can still feel any and all pain that is inflicted on him, even if it does not cause permanent or noticeable injury. An instance where this was shown was in the modern Secret War, where Cage was hit with an energy blast that caused internal bleeding and could not be operated on due to his enhanced skin. Cage's greatest weakness comes in the form of adamantium. As Cage's skin is approximately as durable as titanium, only the world's next strongest metal, adamantium can injure him.
Initially, Luke Cage's strength was roughly in the Marvel Class 7-10 (7 to 10 ton lifting capacity) area at his maximum level, about the same as Spider-Man. A second treatment has blessed him with strength in the Class 20 range, enabling him to lift a little over 25 tons.

[Monty_Cristo]

The first thing that struck me, like several people noted, was Mister X and the way he talked and acted. He often didn't even use full words, and sounded like a crook, not to mention him getting beat up by everyone and even getting blown up. That was a really terrible experience.

The art was worse than the previous one. It wasn't bad, but I'm glad the usual art will be used again.

The size of the issue was a good thing, I always feel that there aren't enough pages in one issue, and this number was just about right.

Ghost seemed girlish.

he's just compensating for the loss of Yelena. and, yeah, Mister X should never sound like an uneducated thug. it's just wrong.

[dadaba]

A fun issue but I had some issues with it. The art was passable but nothing real special, some interesting panals during the fight scenes. The writing was okay, fine for a done in one Luke Cage Iron Fist team up issue, but the mind controlled superhero story, while a staple of the genre wasn't quite what I was hoping for here. I figured it would be Osborn holding Misty hostage that would allow him to hold sway over Danny. And as soon as she were rescued Fist would switch back to the good side of things and rough the TBolts up, but using danny;s chi as an out for the mind control works well, and great continuity references mentioning Danny being able to cure cancer with his Chi. Some fun fight scenes and a Fist Cage Dark reign story. Worth my 4 bucks but I am a big Fist fan.
One dork nit to pick: If my memory serves me some continuity isn't quite lining up here. Danny is shwon in the story doing work for Rand Corp, which has been pretty much dissmantled by Danny and Hydra by the point in time he knew about Misty's Pregnancy that Cage referenced. But I'd have to go back and reread the last issue of Fist's last series to be certain.

I totally agree with you i wont call this issue a fail, the art was ok n the story was ok..the fight scenes were fun gud to see danny kicking some ass.I was a lil disappointed though i thought mr x n danny's fight will be longer i thought they will actually fight face to face n see who will win . I do not see this as a strong Tbolts story but it was ok

[Monty_Cristo]

I totally agree with you i wont call this issue a fail, the art was ok n the story was ok..the fight scenes were fun gud to see danny kicking some ass.. I do not see this as a strong Tbolts story but it was ok

That's just it. this wasn't really a t-bolts story. it was a luke cage and iron fist story.

[dadaba]

[QUOTE=jackolover;9853139]Took the words right out of my mouth.

Unlike most, I liked this issue BECAUSE it felt like a LIST book.

yes it should have been Dark Reign List: Iron fist & luke cage

[jackolover]

Took the words right out of my mouth.

Unlike most, I liked this issue BECAUSE it felt like a LIST book.

yes it should have been Dark Reign List: Iron fist & luke cage

Man, I loved what Danny did in this book. Does Brubaker make him this good in his own book? Bendis used him minimally in the NA, but Remender makes him awesome.

[dadaba]

Man, I loved what Danny did in this book. Does Brubaker make him this good in his own book? Bendis used him minimally in the NA, but Remender makes him awesome.

Brubaker/Fraction revitalized Danny...they were the reason i personally became a huge fan of Iron fist..their run on him is a classic..n not forgetting awesome art by David Aja

[coconutphone]

I enjoyed it for the most part. Art wasn't spectacular but it wasn't bad by any means for me anyway. I've missed Danny taking centre stage so this was a nice treat. Always nice seeing him and Luke bonding.

I thought that it was interesting seeing Ghost take the reigns so overtly.

[Monty_Cristo]

I enjoyed it for the most part. Art wasn't spectacular but it wasn't bad by any means for me anyway. I've missed Danny taking centre stage so this was a nice treat. Always nice seeing him and Luke bonding.

I thought that it was interesting seeing Ghost take the reigns so overtly.

yeah but it's somewhat silly that Norman doesn't know who the traitor on the team is. hell-O...anti-corporate terrorist!

[jackolover]

Brubaker/Fraction revitalized Danny...they were the reason i personally became a huge fan of Iron fist..their run on him is a classic..n not forgetting awesome art by David Aja

How does Remenders Danny compare?

[The Cool Thatguy]

yeah but it's somewhat silly that Norman doesn't know who the traitor on the team is. hell-O...anti-corporate terrorist!

He hired Ghost in the first place, remember?

[dadaba]

How does Remenders Danny compare?

Remender's Danny is just one shot so i cant say much but it was interesting how he used him as an actual fighter n also paid much attention on his chi..but he kinda ignored some major stuff from brubaker/fraction n duane's run thus danny rand's corp being destroyed n how he doesnt want it anymore.I was surprised to see this issue he was back running rand corp like he got rich again.i remember luke said it has been a week since danny told luke misty is pregnant..n in duane's run danny told luke when he got back from hell n rand corp was destroyed, he put rand corp behind him n focused on his karate school. So i was surprised Danny was back running rand corps again.

[MR. USFL]

Not A Good Issue At All Looking Forward To Jeff Parker's Run Next Issue

[James Conniff]

How does Remenders Danny compare?

It shows Danny in an appropriately bad ass light, but he isn't doing anything really new here. And while I think Remender did an alright job it doesn't really get close to Ed Bru and Duanes writing of him. Danny has pulled off some insane stuff in his ongoing. If you haven't read it Jack, I highly suggest the entire volume. Brubaker Fraction and Aja took everything that worked about the character from the past and told some amazing stories. Iron Fist was redefined in thier arc, and Duane Swierzynski and Travel Foreman hit the ground running and don't miss a beat to finish the volume off. 5 Volumes grand total, there's also an Omnibus of the entire Bru Fraction Aja run that is beautiful. David Aja's art is even better over-sized.
So far the Immortal Weapons miniseries, which focuses on Danny's fellow Immortal Weapons and features a Iron Fist back up in each issue, has been really great.

[James Conniff]

How does Remenders Danny compare?

It shows Danny in an appropriately bad ass light, but he isn't doing anything really new here. And while I think Remender did an alright job it doesn't really get close to Ed Bru and Duanes writing of him. Danny has pulled off some insane stuff in his ongoing. If you haven't read it Jack, I highly suggest the entire volume. Brubaker Fraction and Aja took everything that worked about the character from the past and told some amazing stories. Iron Fist was redefined in thier arc, and Duane Swierzynski and Travel Foreman hit the ground running and don't miss a beat to finish the volume off. 5 Volumes grand total, there's also an Omnibus of the entire Bru Fraction Aja run that is beautiful. David Aja's art is even better over-sized.
So far the Immortal Weapons miniseries, which focuses on Danny's fellow Immortal Weapons and features a Iron Fist back up in each issue, has been really great.

[jackolover]

Remender's Danny is just one shot so i cant say much but it was interesting how he used him as an actual fighter n also paid much attention on his chi..but he kinda ignored some major stuff from brubaker/fraction n duane's run thus danny rand's corp being destroyed n how he doesnt want it anymore.I was surprised to see this issue he was back running rand corp like he got rich again.i remember luke said it has been a week since danny told luke misty is pregnant..n in duane's run danny told luke when he got back from hell n rand corp was destroyed, he put rand corp behind him n focused on his karate school. So i was surprised Danny was back running rand corps again.

God, I was going to say something about Osborn tearing Rand Industries apart, by killing off it's executive staff through Agent Choi, but if Rand Industries is already in tatters this hardly seems appropriate. This one shot then looks like reinforcement that Rand Industries is ruined from two fronts at the same time.

[mikekerr3]

very disappointing. but all of the jokes were flat, imo; not just ant-man's. and i wonder if this takes place before Cage's heart problems. i also wonder why Ant-Man's attacking him from the inside wasn't enough to take him down. his outsides are steel-hard; not his stomach. heck, Eric could have traveled into his heart or brain and killed him, as well.

Why would Ant-man want to kill him?

Osborn wanted to use him not kill him

[jackolover]

Whoops wrong post

[jackolover]

very disappointing. but all of the jokes were flat, imo; not just ant-man's. and i wonder if this takes place before Cage's heart problems. i also wonder why Ant-Man's attacking him from the inside wasn't enough to take him down. his outsides are steel-hard; not his stomach. heck, Eric could have traveled into his heart or brain and killed him, as well.

I would say the TBolts was way after the NA heart attack issues, (which, the NA books, I put at about 3 weeks after SI), because we are currently over 3 months after SI, in the other books. But I can't tie-in here, where TB and Secret Warriors fit into continuity. Can anybody help here?

[jackolover]

Why would Ant-man want to kill him?

Osborn wanted to use him not kill him

It's interesting, in that case, that Ant-Man used his attack as a bluff, then, and he didn't really want to hurt Luke, and that then makes Eric look dumb that Luke didn't fall for it, because Eric put himself in such a vulnerable position inside Lukes body. And I don't think Eric is that dumb. I think Eric only acted as though he was doing that for Osborns sake, while maybe it was Eric doing the helping that got Luke and Danny out.

[Walter West]

It was a decent Power Man and Iron Fist story, but it was not a good Thunderbolts story. O'Grady seemed like a depressed, lonely, desperate emo-boy (which is at odds with his devilishly-unrepentant characterization elsewhere), Mr. X seemed way off, and Paladin was putrid.

Cage and Iron Fist were ok, but it seemed unlikely for Iron Fist to get brainwashed by Osborn.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I'm honestly surprised how casual everyone is.

Norman: Well, my black ops team that I trust to take care of things that simply cannot be connected back to me cannot be trusted. They let Cage, the leader of the only Avenger team that concerns me for some reason, get away. Leaving in a huff will solve everything!

Iron Fist: Norman killed innocent civilians simply because they were hanging around me, brainwashed me and sent me against my best friend. That jerk!

Cage: We'll beat up Norman and his people later. If we ever find out who they are, but it's too late to do any research. If only Norman's people were wearing identifiable costumes, or had powers by which to recognize them! Ah well, it's only brainwashing and attempted murder.

And people say it's just the population of the MU that are the idiots?

[Zomling]

I'm honestly surprised how casual everyone is.

Norman: Well, my black ops team that I trust to take care of things that simply cannot be connected back to me cannot be trusted. They let Cage, the leader of the only Avenger team that concerns me for some reason, get away. Leaving in a huff will solve everything!

Iron Fist: Norman killed innocent civilians simply because they were hanging around me, brainwashed me and sent me against my best friend. That jerk!

Cage: We'll beat up Norman and his people later. If we ever find out who they are, but it's too late to do any research. If only Norman's people were wearing identifiable costumes, or had powers by which to recognize them! Ah well, it's only brainwashing and attempted murder.

And people say it's just the population of the MU that are the idiots?

Sadly this kind of stupidity is not just confined to this issue, although Thunderbolts is usually a quality read. Take the recent Hulk issue of The List, why would Osbourne want to turn Banner back inot the Hulk? So Skar could kill him, seems like there would be better ways to me.

Dark Reign started off well, but seems to be losing direction. I hoping that the original Thunderbolts will kick out these pretenders and return tthe series to a new direction with good stories and characterisation.

[FlyingFox]

How is Spider-Man, the one with super speed, agility, reflexes and precognitive ability the easiest to kill? Why does Danny still have his company? And I wish Marvel would institute a line wide ban of Iron Fist's old costume. The humongous collar and slippers just don't work. Overall, not a very good issue.

[americocaine]

The shit going on with Black Widow 2/Yelena is completely ridiculous. So they bring her back after a massive fake out. I'm sure her fans are confused as hell.

[Monty_Cristo]

Sadly this kind of stupidity is not just confined to this issue, although Thunderbolts is usually a quality read. Take the recent Hulk issue of The List, why would Osbourne want to turn Banner back inot the Hulk? So Skar could kill him, seems like there would be better ways to me.

Dark Reign started off well, but seems to be losing direction. I hoping that the original Thunderbolts will kick out these pretenders and return tthe series to a new direction with good stories and characterisation.

they could kick out the "pretenders," sure. but it'd be the same writer and artist. what makes you think the quality would suddenly change? seems to me that they could just as easily give the current characters good characterization, tell some decent stories, and transition them out of the book; replacing them with original Thunderbolts.

[Monty_Cristo]

The shit going on with Black Widow 2/Yelena is completely ridiculous. So they bring her back after a massive fake out. I'm sure her fans are confused as hell.

if they are, the confusion didn't start in Thunderbolts. nothing they've done contradicts what came before. someone calling herself Yelena was burned very badly in the Savageland (Bendis' run). she turned up, for whatever reason, as the Super-Adaptoid. she was detonated. she later showed up in Vanguard saying that everyone was supposed to think she was dead. she displayed no super-adaptoid related powers. then she was forced to go underground rather than be killed off by Colonel America. T-bolts hasn't screwed up anything. Yelena was believed to be dead; even while appearing in the Vanguard story. Natasha used genetic camoflauge to impersonate this dead person and infiltrate Norman's team. unbeknownst to her Norman already had possession of the real Yelena or a clone they created from her remains (just like Dwayne Taylor over in Avengers the Initiative). i guess i'm missing where the confusion comes into play?

[Monty_Cristo]

How is Spider-Man, the one with super speed, agility, reflexes and precognitive ability the easiest to kill?

was he the easiest to kill? i thought that Cap was killed most consistently in the re-enactments. but, realistically, Spider-man wouldn't expect to be struck behind by someone who looked like they could barely walk. Peter's never been invulnerable to a chi-enhanced strike. that same strike has shattered mountains. and the speed with which he strikes make it nearly unavoidable. if the scenario involved an obviously mind-controlled Iron Fist stepping out of a doorway and threatening to kill them, he wouldn't have been able to land a hand on Spider-man. plus this is Norman we're talking about. some of it was wish fulfillment.

[Monty_Cristo]

Why would Ant-man want to kill him?

Osborn wanted to use him not kill him

has nothing to do with want. what was inaccurate was Cage telling Ant-man that there was nothing he could do to him. from the art, Ant-Man even tried to grow inside of Cage; but was met with 'steel-hard' resistance apparently. it's only a minor complaint. but that was completely unrealistic. Cage's insides are un-enhanced. and Ant-Man wouldn't have to kill him to make things unpleasant. he could have turned on one of his leg torches; like he tried against Hulk. that would have had him doubled over in pain. the idea was supposedly to get Cage to cooperate.

It's interesting, in that case, that Ant-Man used his attack as a bluff, then, and he didn't really want to hurt Luke, and that then makes Eric look dumb that Luke didn't fall for it, because Eric put himself in such a vulnerable position inside Lukes body. And I don't think Eric is that dumb. I think Eric only acted as though he was doing that for Osborns sake, while maybe it was Eric doing the helping that got Luke and Danny out.

i guess we'll find out at a later date. Osborn seems to have been bluffing about knowing who the traitor was. i'm guessing that he knew that Eric wasn't actually at the meeting (how did that not give him pause?).

[The Isolationist]

seems to me that they could just as easily give the current characters good characterization, tell some decent stories, and transition them out of the book; replacing them with original Thunderbolts.

I keep getting the feeling that this whole thing is too temporary, like they aren't supposed to go much longer with the current formation. Now, why this bugs me is, take the issue where Mister X joined them. That's such a terrific issue, the art is awesome, the characterization and dialogue are all great.

What I'm trying to say is, I like this particular team as a whole, and what they do is entertaining. In fact, the only bad stuff in the book I can think of was the inclusion of Songbird and Nick Fury. Wouldn't it be great if these guys went on for 50 or more issues?

Why wouldn't they just be the new, permanent Thunderbolts?

[Carlin]

so... where is the real Yelena Belova btw? also Scourge was demoted as far as I remember, at least they should give a crappy explanation for that or should we just forget that the last page on thunderbolts 136 ever existed O_O

[jackolover]

i guess we'll find out at a later date. Osborn seems to have been bluffing about knowing who the traitor was. i'm guessing that he knew that Eric wasn't actually at the meeting (how did that not give him pause?).

It's giving me pause. I did not realise Eric was missing from that meeting. Maybe this is the end of Erics involvement in the TBolts?

[Monty_Cristo]

so... where is the real Yelena Belova btw? also Scourge was demoted as far as I remember, at least they should give a crappy explanation for that or should we just forget that the last page on thunderbolts 136 ever existed O_O

patience. this was a fill-in issue. it would have been kind of pointless to introduce the real Yelena in this issue since the focus was on Iron Fist and Luke Cage. i'm sure that Parker will deal with it soon enough.

[Monty_Cristo]

It's giving me pause. I did not realise Eric was missing from that meeting. Maybe this is the end of Erics involvement in the TBolts?

if so, they would have already hunted him down. of course (he's also in the art preview for the next storyline), Osborn did tell Ghost to kill Eric at an earlier point in the story. Ghost told him that Eric helped Cage and Fist escape as retaliation for leaving him in Cage's stomach. Osborn told him to kill them all or he would kill Ghost and the others. i thought that was strange.

[Sighphi]

Yeah it didnt seem like a Tbolts book, it did further their backstabbing story a bit but wasnt anything grand.

At least there a few good things in it, mainly Mister X getting his butt kicked.
"I can read you moves!"
"Ok.... DRUNKEN MONKEY STYLE! TAKE IT!"
Funny as hell.

[Sighphi]

if they are, the confusion didn't start in Thunderbolts. nothing they've done contradicts what came before. someone calling herself Yelena was burned very badly in the Savageland (Bendis' run). she turned up, for whatever reason, as the Super-Adaptoid. she was detonated. she later showed up in Vanguard saying that everyone was supposed to think she was dead. she displayed no super-adaptoid related powers. then she was forced to go underground rather than be killed off by Colonel America. T-bolts hasn't screwed up anything. Yelena was believed to be dead; even while appearing in the Vanguard story. Natasha used genetic camoflauge to impersonate this dead person and infiltrate Norman's team. unbeknownst to her Norman already had possession of the real Yelena or a clone they created from her remains (just like Dwayne Taylor over in Avengers the Initiative). i guess i'm missing where the confusion comes into play?

The Super Adaptoid story began with Bendis in the NA book. Some mysterious figure came up to her while she was all screwed up and gave her the choice then the Annual furthered that story.

And yeah the Vanguard thing screwed it up but should we even count that in continuity? I think pretty much every character appearance made there made no sense.

But Still the T-bolts did very good by having BW II be BW I and then totally dropped the ball by continuing the confusion and showing BW II alive and well.

[Warhammer3025]

Not to mention the last portrayal of BW II in the previous BW minis show a complete 180 in character disposition.

Why the *bleep* is she gonna give up a life of luxury and leisure and become a SHIELD goomba. Patriotism already got burned out of her when BW I showed how the KGB didnt give a rats ass about her. Money, doubt it, since she's making a pretty penny from her business. Power, seemed to have carved out a nice niche for herself as a big cheese on a small island. Adventure, okay this is just bout the only reason i MIGHT accept her coming back into the spy business. All that peace and prosperity got boring and she just wants to be a covert operative again.

Orrrrrrrrrrrrr............ we had a Skrull BW II running around the whole time *facepalms self*

[Greg Anderson]

As some one who doesn't read Thunderbolts and picked this up only for Cage and Iron Fist, I loved this issue. I thought it was a lot of fun, especially the fight scenes. Cage was written well and I loved the banter between him and Fist especially when they teamed up. Seeing the two in action together nearly brought a tear out. I'd really love to see Remender write a H4H book now with Asrar on art.

[Jimmy Holograph]

As some one who doesn't read Thunderbolts and picked this up only for Cage and Iron Fist, I loved this issue. I thought it was a lot of fun, especially the fight scenes. Cage was written well and I loved the banter between him and Fist especially when they teamed up. Seeing the two in action together nearly brought a tear out. I'd really love to see Remender write a H4H book now with Asrar on art.

Though I have been enjoying Diggle's Thunderbolts prior to this book coming out, Iron Fist and Cage where the big selling point for me as well. But I thought it was average, at best, for the reasons you liked it. It went back to the status quo of how writers treated the characters pre IIF and Bendis' work with Cage in DD and NA , back to the corny, bad writing and mediocre art. Honestly with all the good things that have come from these characters over the past two years, we as fans should expect better, otherwise they might as well get Loeb on this. At least it will sell well.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Asrar needs to go back to art school.

[Fatguy]

This issue was atrocious. Ant-Man is usually an annoying waste of panel space, but in this issue he made me want to throw the book into the toilet. I really like Remender, but this was easily my least favorite thing of his I have read.

[Greg Anderson]

Asrar needs to go back to art school.

Read Dynamo 5. His art is a lot better and much crisper there.