Doctor Strange & Silver Surfer vs modern fans

[Brannon]

I'm not going to lie that it irritates me that currently second rate characters like Deadpool and Cable are apparently more popular than these two classic characters. They're two of my all-time favorites and I find their best series to be on par with other all-time great runs.

I honestly don't understand the lack of interest. I find them to be endlessly fascinating and both offer a huge mythos to play with.

[StoneGold]

It's an ongoing power struggle with those two. One writer makes them more powerful than creation, next writer weakens them up, next writer powers them up, repeat.


But Silver Surfer was never classically a successful book. Hell, even Kirby couldn't save the original run.

[Global Honored]

Strange has a series coming out to wet your whistle.

[Anxy]

Both are great, but both leave a trail of canceled series in their wake. Maybe if Marvel goes on a roll with the whole back-up story trend, they could each have back-ups in a more steady/established mag. A Silver Surfer back-up in FF? A Dr. Strange back-up in, I dunno, one of the Avengers titles?

[Sighphi]

That was back in the day when heroes didnt beat villains by just punching them.
They actually used their powers in smart ways.

[Brannon]

I think people forget that the Surfer's 1987-92 period saw a big boost in popularity to the character due in no small part to Marvel putting top notch creators on the title (Englehart, Starlin, Lim, etc.) and the very good idea of returning him to space and making his stories truly cosmic in scope. It was only when the talent level declined drastically and the books read poorly and looked awful, did the Surfer start spiraling.

I have no doubt that the right artist and the writer could make the Surfer every bit as successful as Thor has been over the last few years. People like the Surfer, hell, kids like the Surfer. Marvel just has no idea what to do with him and there is little excuse for it when dealing with a character this great.

I will be supporting the new Strange book without doubt. I really enjoyed Vaughn's "The Oath" and hope the new series is on that level.

[Brannon]

Both are great, but both leave a trail of canceled series in their wake. Maybe if Marvel goes on a roll with the whole back-up story trend, they could each have back-ups in a more steady/established mag. A Silver Surfer back-up in FF? A Dr. Strange back-up in, I dunno, one of the Avengers titles?

At the very least. These characters are too good to not have some sort of regular feature going each month.

[kossori]

Now would be a good time to give the Surfer his own series again... Just have him make an appearance in one of the DnA books then launch him off with a talented creative team...

[Wellman]

Its what I think is sometimes referred to as the Superman syndrome.

Characters that are uber powerful, perfect or completely alien from the human condition, often have a hard time finding an audience and interested (talented) writers outside of well Superman.

You see it all over the spectrum with characters like Martian Manhunter to the more recent example Sentry, a boat load of powers that should make the character a big deal, but they just don't get the love from fans. Sometimes it feels like they are too overpowered to be interesting and some just don't like the character's look or personality.

It is also hard to get readers on with these characters because often the writers themselves don't know what to do with all that power. They will be so befuddled and constantly try one upping the last super battle, they often wind up being boring. Which sadly usually results in Power Fluctuation or down grade, thus losing something that made the character interesting to original fans in the first place.


It is a vicious cycle when you really get down to it. Some characters like Ghost Rider can somewhat skate on their looks but a lot of interesting characters/ideas are often lost.

[Stephen Sanders]

Hopefully Strange can come out with an ongoing from his mini. He's practically depowered now so there should be plenty of stories that can be told. I think he deserves as much of a chance as other characters like Spider-Woman, Moon Knight, and War Machine did when they received their ongoing without a mini-series to test the audience.

[Forth World]

Characters that are uber powerful, perfect or completely alien from the human condition, often have a hard time finding an audience and interested (talented) writers outside of well Superman...

You see it all over the spectrum with characters like Martian Manhunter to the more recent example Sentry,

You said it right there. Especially the alien part. With SS that's even more important than the all-powerful problem.

Same deal with Namor. Hard for readers to identify with. Creative team has to work hard to keep things moored in earth and humanity, or sales fall off.

Doctor Strange, I have no idea how you make him work. Never been one of my favorites.

[Kasper Cole]

Surfer and Strange can both work well as characters as long as they keep them away from typical marvel superheroes. It was flat out stupid to see Strange not being able to stop and airplane from crashing. Surfer needs to stay away from every earth based hero who doesn't have god like powers.

[Sighphi]

Hopefully Strange can come out with an ongoing from his mini. He's practically depowered now so there should be plenty of stories that can be told. I think he deserves as much of a chance as other characters like Spider-Woman, Moon Knight, and War Machine did when they received their ongoing without a mini-series to test the audience.

Strange is almost at the same position he was when he was SS.
So saying that he is now a character that is writable is tremendously funny.

[Bevbos]

I could certainly deal with one less Hulk- or X-family book to have a Dr. Strange ongoing. I NEVER understand why there isn't a Dr. Strange ongoing.

Or how about bringing back the classic Defenders? I would ♥ that, and I know a bunch of others would, too.

[Anxy]

I could certainly deal with one less Hulk- or X-family book to have a Dr. Strange ongoing. I NEVER understand why there isn't a Dr. Strange ongoing.

Or how about bringing back the classic Defenders? I would ♥ that, and I know a bunch of others would, too.

I think Marvel has tried a few times to re-vamp the Defenders, but it never caught on.

[Richard Bishop]

Surfer and Strange can both work well as characters as long as they keep them away from typical marvel superheroes. It was flat out stupid to see Strange not being able to stop and airplane from crashing. Surfer needs to stay away from every earth based hero who doesn't have god like powers.
Amen.

Dr. Strange works when he is dealing with mystical threats apart from the MU; not to say these threats wouldn't impact the MU, but that he deals with them without the general population, or even the superhero population, of the MU knowing. The 1970's Dr. Strange series was perfect in this way, telling stories that were grand in scope, using dimensions and adversaries that were unique to that book or who only made rare appearances in other books (the six-issue story where he rid the MU of vampires, featuring Dracula, is an exception); conversely, the Sorcerer Supreme series in the '90s was a load of crap, with Infinity Gauntlet crossovers and Ghost Rider appearances and being tied into the MU too closely, thus taking away what made Dr. Strange different and making him just another spandexed superhero.

As for Silver Surfer, I've never had any interest in the character, but one would think with the current emphasis on building and sustaining the "Cosmic Line", Marvel would consider utilizing him in that area as a name-brand character to drum up interest. I agree with your statement about staying away from every earth-based hero without godlike powers, but would take it further by saying that he needs to stay away from Earth. Cosmic characters need to be presented on a bigger canvas like the vastness of space, not confined to cities and trappings that we are all familiar with; it is their otherwordliness and ability to reach the stars that makes them unique and interesting, and having Silver Surfer hanging around on Earth diminishes him (although a rare interaction with the FF, with whom SS has a long history, would be acceptable as long as the meeting was part of a larger, more wide-sweeping storyline that did not take place entirely on Earth).

[Brannon]

I don't buy the angle that readers can't relate to Strange or the Surfer and that's why they haven't been successful in recent years. Who can relate to Thor? Yet he has only been canceled once and for a short duration. He's also one of my favorite characters.

I think this is why Spider-Man is only one of my favorites and not my single favorite like he is with many fans. I like a mix of different character types--some that I can relate to, some that I find awe inspiring and distant. At least for me as a reader, "relatability" is a vastly overrated concept.

I miss the variety that Marvel had from the 60's through the early 80's. It seemed that fans had much broader tastes during those periods.

[Brother Zag]

RBishop is on to something. I think both SS and DrS are victims of the uber-interlocking of modern Marvel continuity. While this works for those heroes who "play well with others" it doesn't work for these two. Problem is, it seems those heroes who do play well with others sell books right now - The Avengers and X-Books have been selling gangbusters, in relative terms. Recently, Bendis tried to shoehorn Spider-Man and Dr. Strange into the Avengers... Spidey's still there, but it's never been a comfortable fit. And Strange just isn't a team player as a character, so he never gelled, either.

Silver Surfer's best recent run was during Annihilation. The best thing about Annihilation was that it didn't have anything at all to do with Civil War ('cept in that very cool issue of "What if?"). Be nice to see a SS among the stars again.

heck, if they could get Dr. Starange into space it probably wouldn't hurt him, either... maybe the Guardians can enlist his help against the Magus?

[Forth World]

I don't buy the angle that readers can't relate to Strange or the Surfer and that's why they haven't been successful in recent years.

All I know is, my favorite characters are, in no particular order: Silver Surfer, Namor, Martian Manhunter, Starman (Prince Gavyn), and the New Gods. They're all significantly alien, and not one of them has been able to sustain an ongoing for very long. I'd love to be wrong though.

I think it's the kind of thing that you can very carefully overcome but writers switch up everything can go sideways real quick.

[Mundungus]

I would dig a quality Silver Surfer series. He is aesthetically pleasing to look at, visually dynamic, and offers a range of potential stories.

The same for Doctor Strange. I think it's great that Brother Voodoo is getting a bump in recognition, but I wish they didn't have to de-emphasize Strange to emphasize Voodoo. I see the reasoning for the stories they have planned, and they're compelling.

[matt levin]

Strange and Surfer have been among my favorite characters since they first appeared. I so deplored their depiction after the late seventies that pretty much I've found myself buying an issue or two of a 'new run' and then running, myself, fast and far away from them. I did like two Doc stories in the past few years, the massive retelling of his 'origin' and the 'oath' stories.

I think it's all in the writer, in conjunction with the artists; With both, for me, it's the balance between what each can do, and who each is: Strange outgrowing his selfish arrogant nature, and connecting with 'ordinary' humans while defending the world/cosmos against overwhelming threats; Surfer over-coming his despair while defending the world/cosmos etc.

I'm surprised, given a couple of previous posts, that no one else has already suggested a Strange/Surfer book; not a team-up, but a series where they alternate lead stories and back-ups. Makes a easy 'cross-over' if ever necessary (and for me, it's rarely really necessary!). But we'd need someone who can really delve into WHO these people are, and what they've needed to overcome, or what they've come to be motivated by (besides saving the world), with a strong supporting cast for Doc, and a strong, reasonable mission for the Surfer (maybe he's Paladin: have cosmic power, will travel).

Anyway, I'm in for the Doc series; looks very promising... though we've been down that road before, I'm game to try again.

best wishes,
Matt

[Brother Zag]

heh... just finished watching The Super-Hero Squad Show "Night In The Sanctum Sanctorum" episode. Best episode of this show yet! I haven't been a big fan so far, but I'm beginning to "get" it. If it makes some of my Marvel favorites new fans among kids, fantastic!

It's one of the few places the Silver Surfer is currently appearing... well, sort of. it is a rather "gnarly" depiction of Surfer. But, again, if it's building awareness of the character, "awesome"! And in this episode the "Squaddies" visit Dr. Strange looking for a place to sleep after the Falcon crashes the Helicarrier thanks to the Enchantress (and boy was Ms. Marvel PISSED!). Although played for yucks, this episode poured a lot of Strange's mythos into the action - I think he invoked all of his supernatural forces, Hoary Hoasts of Hoggarth, Vishanti, etc. Baron Mordo is briefly released from a can of soda he's imprisoned in - makes him rather gassy. The Hulk, looking for the bathroom, opens the door on a "Ditko Room" - very cool. Three of The Defenders under one roof, too. And I must admit, the site of an angry floating Dr. Strange in a bathrobe and fuzzy slippers was a lot of fun :)

Strange was actually more like his comic book character in SHS than he was in the animated movie - kinda bothered me that the magic in that DVD movie was only used to make weapons, and then they fought each other with those. Dumb.
So, SHS - not a bad show. Stan Lee does the voice of the Mayor of Superhero City, you gotta like that. And at least we're seeing Strange and the Surfer...

[Ofpromise]

I would dig a series for both.

Hell I loved the crap out of Namor's mini a few years back.

But what i'd really like is for Marvel to bring back the DEFENDERS!

[Slumber Hulk]

I'm not going to lie that it irritates me that currently second rate characters like Deadpool and Cable are apparently more popular than these two classic characters. They're two of my all-time favorites and I find their best series to be on par with other all-time great runs.

I honestly don't understand the lack of interest. I find them to be endlessly fascinating and both offer a huge mythos to play with.

I wouldn't call Cable or Deadpool second rate. They have success because they have good books. With stories and enemies that challenge them.

The problem with Strange and Surfer is they are so powerful nothing can realistically challenge them. So they get weakened and fans complain. So they get a power boost. So nothing can challange them. Yawn.

Superman has this power but because he's Superman people keep reading. Strange and Surfer don't have this priveledge.

I like the Dr. Strange power down is interesting, even though I wish he were still SS. I'm not that fond of Voodoo. I figure after a while Strange will regain the mantle.

[bd2999]

I do not think it is modern fans really. I think alot of writters and the people doing the thinking at Marvel are afraid of Strange and Surfer. Both guys have mind bending power and it takes alot of creativity to challenge them in any way.

I really like Deadpool, I really do. At the same time Strange and Surfer are among my favorite characters too. I really like their old comics and the 90's ones. Just great characters who go well beyond what other heros do most of the time. Just really cool stuff I always thought. I would love for them to have their own books. I really would.

I think the creative folks in charge are not huge fans of the character, in addition they have never classically been huge sellers. I think it is a shame that characters like Spider-man, Wolverine, Hulk and such can have several titles going telling basically the same tale over and over, or for that matter just have some hack writters from time to time (I do not say that I hate the characters, and they have some very good stories but say Loeb on Hulk for example. Just bad), but guys like Strange, Surfer and their ilk just get ignored.

[doctormistermaster]

I personally have always felt that Marvel should have a book titled "Defenders" that would individually follow the exploits of the original four members. Dividing the book into 4 or each issue spotlighting a different character.

[CaptCleghorn]

I'm not going to lie that it irritates me that currently second rate characters like Deadpool and Cable are apparently more popular than these two classic characters. They're two of my all-time favorites and I find their best series to be on par with other all-time great runs.

I honestly don't understand the lack of interest. I find them to be endlessly fascinating and both offer a huge mythos to play with.

Strange's audience (at least those who I think enjoyed the Englehart Brunner type stuff) is reading Vertigo and the like. Judging by the numbers those books are getting, I doubt a Strange book done for that crowd would do well in general. Therefore, if you want to sell Strange to a more widespread crowd, he must change. It happened when his costume went skin tight in 1969 and he got the mask to make him look more superheroic.

[Evil-Spidey]

Cable and Deadpool both almost constantly have ongoings plus team book appeareances since their introdution. Just like Strange and Surfer had a few years ago. Those 4 are a good example how times changed. Marvel has only 8 characters (Spider-Man, Wolverine, Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, Daredevil, Punisher and Hulk) who can always support their own books, everyone else seems to come and go. With Cable and Deadpool we need to wait and see if they still have ongoings in 20 years or if they were replaced by new characters.

[berk]

Strange's audience (at least those who I think enjoyed the Englehart Brunner type stuff) is reading Vertigo and the like. Judging by the numbers those books are getting, I doubt a Strange book done for that crowd would do well in general. Therefore, if you want to sell Strange to a more widespread crowd, he must change. It happened when his costume went skin tight in 1969 and he got the mask to make him look more superheroic.Good point, but I'd draw the opposite conclusion from it: they should get someone like Morrison to write a Dr. Strange series in a Vertigo-like setting. Take it away from the power-level-obsessed superhero world and try to do something a little more ambitious, creatively and intellectually. Assuming they can find anyone who's both capable and interested, that is.

[Freakzeek]

Good point, but I'd draw the opposite conclusion from it: they should get someone like Morrison to write a Dr. Strange series in a Vertigo-like setting. Take it away from the power-level-obsessed superhero world and try to do something a little more ambitious, creatively and intellectually. Assuming they can find anyone who's both capable and interested, that is. Yes Yes Please Yes , Marvel get to it ! chop chop

[hunter_peterson]

Who'd like a Silver Surfer/Doctor Strange double-feature in a new Marvel Mystery Comics?

I would.

[Whirlwind Dinamo]

double post

[Whirlwind Dinamo]

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The same for Doctor Strange. I think it's great that Brother Voodoo is getting a bump in recognition, but I wish they didn't have to de-emphasize Strange to emphasize Voodoo. I see the reasoning for the stories they have planned, and they're compelling.

I think now would be the perfect time to re write Strange, he's almost back to rock bottom, jobbers on the battles, looks flustered and tame next to World War Hulk and lost his title to Voodoo. Not that I think Voodoo should vanish away or anything but Strange can be really fresh again. As he hits rock bottom we need a great writer to come in and build back from the bottom up. People are suckers for the Rocky-style comeback stories.





But Silver Surfer was never classically a successful book. Hell, even Kirby couldn't save the original run.


I think Surfer is semi-successful, while not as big as Spider-Man or Superman or not even as big as Nightwing or The Thing. He can hold his own if the story is done right, a run in the 1960s, lots of guest star appearances, turns up in Avengers, Thor, Defenders team with bricks like Namor, Hulk, Strange, appears in Hulk and X-men comics and a run of over 150? issues during the 90s. Plus guys like J. Michael Straczynski are able to write great stories for him.

The whole thing is to do him correctly, some guys would have him appear in Spider-Man just for the hell of it and you get crap like Thanos-copter, heck even respected guys like McDuffie made a balls of him and you get Black Panther taking him out with an armlock. Surfer is not an Earth character, he should never be facing Panther ever. He's a cosmic character and should really only be facing off against the Nova Corp, Thanos, Mephisto, or other heralds, maybe even pop up in a DC Green Lantern comic once in a while.

One side of the Surfer is peaceful, a cosmic diplomat, a healer. The other side of him brings carnage across the Galaxy. He is supposed to be the fallen angel Kirby/Lee first wrote of, he's cool, he's noble, he's silver but there's also something frightening behind him like Galactus, a guy who scared America and the world worse than the Cuban missile crisis ever could. He's the cosmic combination of JFK/Jesus and Faust/Stalin, and that's a weird dichotomy. If modern people at Marvel can't understand how Surfer is supposed to be wrote then frankly I would rather people not write him at all.
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[CaptCleghorn]

Good point, but I'd draw the opposite conclusion from it: they should get someone like Morrison to write a Dr. Strange series in a Vertigo-like setting. Take it away from the power-level-obsessed superhero world and try to do something a little more ambitious, creatively and intellectually. Assuming they can find anyone who's both capable and interested, that is.

I think that this might meet the BEST Vertigo sales figures, and this is the Strange I'd want to read about, but I don't see a Dr Strange book outselling the best (in terms of sales) Vertigo books. To beat those numbers, you'd need to sell to readers who aren't picking up Fables et al.

I'm not arguing against the awesomeness of a Vertgized Strange, but to beat those sales numbers, extra readers still need to be found. If those sales figures are acceptable, then I don't know why Marvel doesn't do this book, but I suspect they may not be.

[Hrist]

I know I'm newish to comics, but Dr. Strange is my favorite character in the universe and I don't like Deadpool and Cable much at all.

[Wellman]

Cable and Deadpool both almost constantly have ongoings plus team book appeareances since their introdution. Just like Strange and Surfer had a few years ago. Those 4 are a good example how times changed. Marvel has only 8 characters (Spider-Man, Wolverine, Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, Daredevil, Punisher and Hulk) who can always support their own books, everyone else seems to come and go. With Cable and Deadpool we need to wait and see if they still have ongoings in 20 years or if they were replaced by new characters.

Cable has come dangerously close to cancellation A LOT. But luckily (sometimes) he has had a fan in one of the offices that has got him a book. Honestly, Deadpool is the more popular one and that mainly is because he is the early personification of internet humor. Depending on if he gets the movie Marvel wants to make for him and its good, he probably will have an ongoing for another 20 years but as it is. Evil Spidey is right its a sign of the times, although I would compare Deadpool and Cable more along the lines to Punisher, as Frank Castle while often given a chance doesn't always have successful series and before Garth Ennis was very much in guest star limbo.

[mournblade94]

.
If modern people at Marvel can't understand how Surfer is supposed to be wrote then frankly I would rather people not write him at all.
.
Agreed. SS should not be beat by any avenger alone except maybe Thor and maybe Sentry.

I would rather have no book than a Spidey beats Silver book.

[Evil-Spidey]

Cable has come dangerously close to cancellation A LOT. But luckily (sometimes) he has had a fan in one of the offices that has got him a book. Honestly, Deadpool is the more popular one and that mainly is because he is the early personification of internet humor. Depending on if he gets the movie Marvel wants to make for him and its good, he probably will have an ongoing for another 20 years but as it is. Evil Spidey is right its a sign of the times, although I would compare Deadpool and Cable more along the lines to Punisher, as Frank Castle while often given a chance doesn't always have successful series and before Garth Ennis was very much in guest star limbo.

Actually Deadpools first ongoing was always at the bring of cancellation while Cable was a good selling book. However when they cancelled Cable and relaunched it as Soldier X it only lasted 12 issues so that's far from being a success while when Deadpool was cancelled it was replaced by Agent X who turned out to not even be Deadpool. So they relaunched both together as Cable&Deadpool which lasted a solid 50 issues and now Cable got his own ongoing back and Deadpool has even 3 which was unthinkable 10 years ago. However what my point is that those are 2 of the characters who constantly come back with ongoings just like it was for Dr.Strange and Silver Surfer a few decades earlier.

[Brannon]

I think the point that fans of Dr. Strange (from the classic 60's and 70's era) are now reading Vertigo fantasy comics is an excellent one. I think a Vertigo format would enhance all of the mystical/occult elements that makes Strange such a great character.

In a perfect world, we'd have our Vertigo "occult" Strange solo book and "superhero" Strange in a Defender's ongoing. Sigh.

[rpriske]

I'm not a huge Surfer fan, but I don't dislike him. I just don't see him as a strong LEAD character.

Dr. Strange, on the other hand, is a GREAT lead character. I would like to see a series with him like the ones around issue #60 of his old series where he fought Dracula. I think that was Roger Stern writing. Great stuff.