Cosmic Sales Down!

[Nova3333]

As in sales. Figures from Diamond for estimates September sales currently place Nova at 104 out of the top 300 - from last month's 27,038 down to 23,924 , over a 12% drop! GOTG also fell from 27,893 to 24,896 with the WOK WHO WILL RULE one-shot gaining an estimated sales of
30,237.

http://www.icv2.com/ articles/news/16022.html

We're discusisng this at cosmicbooknews - from what we can see - its mainly down to the fact that the present comic lines are absolutely filled to the glut with spin offs, with 2 Deadpool series, and a plethora of event tie-in's from Blackest Night, Dark Reign, X-titles, etc - while good quality titles like Nova, GOTG and the rest of DNA's output are pushed furhter and further down the list. Its also a worry that as far as I can see (less I'm blind as a fruit bat wearing a blindfold) that oddly Nova 29 didn't get a discussion thread - was it really that bad an issue??

I hope, as many, that things will improve when ROK begins, an irony as its yet another "event" - but its about time Marvel promote its Cosmic line as fully as it promotes the rest of its series like Spiderman, X-Titles, etc. But also the fans need to keep the cosmic fires burning to ensure titles like Nova, Guardians, etc endure.




Nuff said.

[Bevbos]

Well, that is unfortunate. But, you know, GotG has grown increasingly convoluted - I wouldn't be surprised if some people jump back on once the dimension-hopping stops.

[Alex Smith]

What numbers are generally considered "cancellation numbers"? I don't often look at the sales of comics, but I'd be pretty upset of Guardians got cancelled. Nova too for that matter.

Well, that is unfortunate. But, you know, GotG has grown increasingly convoluted - I wouldn't be surprised if some people jump back on once the dimension-hopping stops.

That's true, it has been getting a bit excessive. I still love me some Adam Warlock though, and there are so many more cosmic characters that could be featured.

[Werehunter]

Damn that sucks, though I think your right in saying that the numerous tie ins and growing numbers of both X and Avengers books are likely playing a factor. When faced with a budget situation, I've found that people are more likely to drop books that are largely separate from the rest which the cosmic books are, at least at Marvel. Which is really sad since DnA are two of the best writers at Marvel at the moment.

I also agree that GoG is likely costing itself readers by all this time and dimension hoping. I hope things improve when the entire team gets back together.

[mightyness]

I hate to say it but for Guardians of the Galaxy I would guess the art have something to do with it. I would like to see a bigger name artist on this title. I wish PP would have came back on after War of Kings. Niche titles like the cosmic ones need bigger named talent to really help push the sales. I love GotG and would hate to see it go but haven't been to pleased with the two current rotating artists.

[RBishop]

What numbers are generally considered "cancellation numbers"? I don't often look at the sales of comics, but I'd be pretty upset of Guardians got cancelled. Nova too for that matter.
Marvel's recent habit has been to cancel ongoing books that fall below the 20,000 threshold, such as Captain Britain & MI:13.

[XPac]

I'm not shocked that Guardians might be declining, if that's indeed what's happening. So-so artists, and a convoluted storyline that makes it not terribly newbie friendly.

Still, the comsics have another event on the horizen... perhaps that will create a small boost.

[Kylun123]

I expect most titles not directly related to the big 4 (Avengers, Spidey, Hulk, X-Men) to be winnowed out in the next 12 months.

There just seems to be more money in it for Marvel to promote and create more titles associated with those lines.

[RolandJP]

I expect most titles not directly related to the big 4 (Avengers, Spidey, Hulk, X-Men) to be winnowed out in the next 12 months.

There just seems to be more money in it for Marvel to promote and create more titles associated with those lines.

Yep its trending that way.

Hopefully Marvel will give us an occasional mini-series. (crosses fingers) That being said the 3.99 price line is killing readership.

[XPac]

I think it helps when the cosmic stuff dips it's toe into the earthbound mainstream MU stuff from time to time.

We saw Nova for example partially involving itself with the Civil War fall out, as well as getting a little Secret Invasion love.

I know some people aren't fond of tie-ins and guest spots, and that's understandable... but they do help keep lower selling books afloat in tough times.

[Sean Walsh]

Very odd to see this.

I understand the "glut of books" argument, but it's weirder still since WAR OF KINGS - which did very well on its own - apparently had zero effect on NOVA and GOTG....and yet when it ends, those books drop in sales, as if WOK did have some effect on it. :confused:

Marvel's recent habit has been to cancel ongoing books that fall below the 20,000 threshold, such as Captain Britain & MI:13.

Given the strength of the cosmic books since ANNIHILATION and how long that stability has lasted (almost 3 years now), I can't see Marvel abandoning them anytime soon. The division has gotta be safe for as long as Realm of Kings goes on, and beyond that.....maybe a relaunch after that, but certainly not outright cancellation.

[XPac]

Very odd to see this.

I understand the "glut of books" argument, but it's weirder still since WAR OF KINGS - which did very well on its own - apparently had zero effect on NOVA and GOTG....and yet when it ends, those books drop in sales, as if WOK did have some effect on it. :confused:




Wow... when you look at it from that perspective, people must have really disliked WOK to have been turned off to Nova and GotG even though the books barely tied into the event.

[Nova3333]

Both Nova Prime Page and Cosmic Book News are taking this significant drop quite seriously. Take note of the following -written by my friend, Timelord, a regular contributor to CBN -


"Color me concerned and downright worried.

Marvel is not afraid of cancelling critically acclaimed titles (Agents of Atlas anyone?) so we shouldn't believe the cosmic niche is secure. It's all going to boil down to sales.

What can we do to intervene is the question we should be asking ourselves. How can we increase sales? Maybe Nova being in Avengers and MASH will help; but I don't think we can count on that alone.

In the past, niche titles (e.g. Spider-Girl) were saved by devoted fans inundating Marvel with letters/emails. Of course, the economic times were better back then for the company and everyone else. Each week when I go to my lcs, I see guys there trying to sell parts of their collections because they're out of work. Obviously they're not buying new comics. I have to wonder if the economy isn't a big part of this - people having to pick and choose what they buy - no impulse buys or trying new titles that in better times might have been tried. So, a letter writing campaign might not have as much impact as it used to - but on the other hand there's nothing to lose and everything to gain by doing one if we hear Nova and GoTG are on the chopping block.

If we get advance warning of a cancellation, I suggest that the major fan sites for these books organize and work together to innundate Joe Quesada with emails and letters. I suggest an email link to send a form letter similar to what the political organizations use to lobby for their positions.

In the meantime, I also wonder how we can capture some of the Green Lantern Corps fans. That book is a consistent best seller for DC. Why wouldn't those same people like Nova and GoTG? I picked up and thumbed through a copy of GLC when I was at my lcs this weekend. It was well written, well drawn, lots of action/adventure/drama with the GLC winning some fights and losing some fights. I really think a formula like that would work for Nova. The Nova Corps needs to win some epic fights in the context of a kick-ass story rather than just being used as cannon fodder when a writer wants to make a dramatic point by killing a bunch of good guys. If these types of stories disrespectful to the Nova Corps keep being written, of course no one will respect the Nova Corps; and RR will be disrespected due to association.

I suppose there are GLC fan websites. Maybe those of us who read Nova, GoTG, and GLC can infiltrate some of the GLC sites and start promoting Nova and GoTG.

I think we should promote the niche concept to Marvel as much as possible. Reinforce them with thank you emails for taking the time to grow a cosmic niche in the Marvel Universe. If they look at these properties as a niche market (like the Max and Icon mature titles which rarely sell more than 5000 or so) and lower their sales expectations, then maybe these titles can hang on long enough to build a devoted fan base like GLC.

We should probably also ask toy manufacturers for more Nova stuff. The more money Marvel makes off merchandise tie-ins, the more they'll keep the character on the stands.

Likewise, we should lobby Hollywood film-makers. I sent a letter to Kevin Smith some time ago asking him to consider filming Annihilation. Let's send letters/emails to some studios and high profile directors/producers asking for Nova and GoTG films.

So, in summary, I suggest we organize and be proactive to begin with and reactive if necessary.

Proactively:
1. Send Joe Quesada thank you emails for growing Marvel Cosmic with Nova and GoTG; and reinforce the niche market concept in his mind.
2. Market GLC fans (and military SF fans).
3. Lobby toymakers for Nova and GoTG merchandise.
4. Lobby film-makers for Nova and GoTG films/animated TV shows/direct to DVD animation. Hell, an appearance on the new Superhero squad TV show wouldn't hurt. Looks like everybody but Nova and GoTG is guest starring on there. We should lobby for Nova and GoTG appearances too. "

Doug Smith, NPP webmaster (remember NPP got an appearence in Nova 23!!) is planning to start a campaign to essentially promote Nova and the other Cosmic titles - cause although we accept Cosmic titles will never have a big a readership as say the likes of Avengers, FF, etc - there is a hardcore fanbase out there that supports them - and we're sure than given half the chance, a lot of other comic fans who love Sci-Fi, or just darn good comic storytelling, would enjoy an issue of Nova or GOTL or ROK.

So, here's the deal - spread the news, those of you who enjoy Marvel Cosmic - recommend a friend who maybe gets his/her fix of GL, etc - to try getting an issue next time - or pick up a past issue. Or hit the blogs/ message boards and show some support. The more support Marvel Cosmic gets, the better the hopes it'll endure that much longer. Over and Out. D.

[Blackhawkk]

Deadpool is just a much more enjoyable comic.

I'm not here to knock the cosmic comics, but they attract just the few. Even back in the 70s, I couldn't stand Warlock. I give Marvel credit for trying different things but in the end it's the standard super-hero stock.

Put Deadpool in Nova or the Guardians Of The Galaxy and see the sales jump! (Deapool's the new Wolverine!)

[ANewHope]

Astonishing Xmen, Son Of Hulk and Cable are the cosmic books that I support.

I did buy War Of Kings as well. Probably will support Realm of Kings too.

I might not be able to afford the upcoming Inhuman Realm of King series though.

[ANewHope]

Lol. Deadpool in Space. Hell, he should join Gotg.

Cosmic line saved.

[Scavenger]

Marvel is not afraid of cancelling critically acclaimed titles (Agents of Atlas anyone?) so we shouldn't believe the cosmic niche is secure. It's all going to boil down to sales.


AoA was canceled in name only, what with the X-Men/Atlas series, followed by Hercules/Atlas, followed by TBolts/Atlas, followed (in the new solicits) Avengers/Atlas AND a Bob Solo mini.

If only all books got "canceled" like that.:tongue:

[stingerman]

Well, regarding the sales as poster Somebody stated [somewhere], the sales are actually pretty much the same for a non tie-in/non-variant issue.

The previous issue (#28) did have the frame variant which might have pushed sales a bit.

And previous issues to that were WoKs issues and also an 80s Variant issue.

Regardless, even if Nova or even GoTG got a slight boost from WoKs, as someone else mentioned they didn't retain any of the WoKs - or even in my opinion did the WoKs people really buy the issues. The numbers could be off as well but still getting close to Marvel cancellation threshold.

Personally, I would like to see Marvel do a better job of promoting the lesser selling titles. Rulk and everyone else gets a McGuiness 50/50 Variant, why not do that for Nova, GoTG - event Agents of Atlas? Yeah, I get the numbers game regarding sales etc but if a gimmick is needed to get these books into new readers hands, I'm all for it.

[Gitaroo_Dude]

Well, regarding the sales as poster Somebody stated [somewhere], the sales are actually pretty much the same for a non tie-in/non-variant issue.

The previous issue (#28) did have the frame variant which might have pushed sales a bit.

And previous issues to that were WoKs issues and also an 80s Variant issue.

Regardless, even if Nova or even GoTG got a slight boost from WoKs, as someone else mentioned they didn't retain any of the WoKs - or even in my opinion did the WoKs people really buy the issues. The numbers could be off as well but still getting close to Marvel cancellation threshold.

Personally, I would like to see Marvel do a better job of promoting the lesser selling titles. Rulk and everyone else gets a McGuiness 50/50 Variant, why not do that for Nova, GoTG - event Agents of Atlas? Yeah, I get the numbers game regarding sales etc but if a gimmick is needed to get these books into new readers hands, I'm all for it.

Funnily enough, AoA actually had McGuniness variants.

[TOAA]

Astonishing Xmen, Son Of Hulk and Cable are the cosmic books that I support.

I did buy War Of Kings as well. Probably will support Realm of Kings too.

I might not be able to afford the upcoming Inhuman Realm of King series though.

Son Of Hulk and Cable are ending soon, no? So you should have enough space for Nova and GotG in your pull list :biggrin:


While that "somebody" has some good point i completely disagree with comparison of Nova to GLC, or even GL franchise for that matter. GL is one of DC top franchises at the moment, i`d argue that even without BN it`s doing better than Superman for DC, well as far as comics sales go, not merchandise.

And Nova/GotG? Lets say it is cosmic franchise, what spot it takes in Marvel`s "hierarchy"? Spiderman, Avengers, X-Men, Hulk, Thor, Iron Man, Wolverine, Captain America, Ultimate Line, Fantastic Four. Then MAYBE cosmic line.

In short: GLC is selling better than Nova and GotG combined(well during BN) not because it`s much better written and drawn but because DC gives a damn about GL franchise. Of course Marvel gives a damn too but you can`t deny that Marvel has priorities for their older, more popular franchises.

[stingerman]

Funnily enough, AoA actually had McGuniness variants.

Oh did it really, lol? Ok throw that out the window, lol.

** I think those were 1 in 10 though and not 50/50?

[ANewHope]

Lol I know Cable is ending.

I hope Son of Hulk doesn't. But I guess it wouldn't surprise me.

I try to support what I know and love.

I was buying Exiles and Captain Britain. I can only buy so much. Sometimes great books are canceled. As long as it ends with an awesome ending, thats all you can really ask for.

[TOAA]

I hope Son of Hulk doesn't. But I guess it wouldn't surprise me.

I think somebody mentioned in one of the preview threads that it`s missing in December and January. Maybe it`s just an error or short hiatus.

[ANewHope]

That's what happened to Exiles too. It wasn't posted in previews and the next week, it was announced that the lastissue would be an over-sized finale

[paulski]

Oh did it really, lol? Ok throw that out the window, lol.

** I think those were 1 in 10 though and not 50/50?

Correct. And any readers that were on the fence about picking up the title certainly wouldn't have forked out extra money to get the McGuinness cover. A 50/50 split would have been a much better option in that regard.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Funnily enough, AoA actually had McGuniness variants.

Unfortunately, though, it was an acquired taste. A title which never really explained itself to the reader during its first arc, frequently broke up the pace with complicated flashbacks, deviated greatly from the concept it sold to readers in the previews at the start of Dark Reign, and took it for granted that all of its readers were already going to be familiar with these characters coming to the title for the first time.

It made its own bed, and so it cannot really complain if it had a crap night's sleep.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the cosmic titles. However, I think the bigger problem here is simply that we've moved from two ongoing titles to two ongoing titles an many more event tie in books through War of Kings and now Realm of Kings.

If I were Marvel I think I'd not have pushed for another event after WoK. You're just asking readers of both titles to buy another two books. And like I schmuck I WILL. :biggrin: But I wouldn't expect everybody to.

[AllisterH]

I wonder if a crossover involving the entire MU but starring the cosmic marvel stars a la Blackest Night.

Kind of concerned about the cosmic titles as they have been consistently been the best "old-school sensibilities with modern writing" that people keep saying they want.

[streator]

Astonishing Xmen, Son Of Hulk and Cable are the cosmic books that I support

i wouldn't consider astonishing x-men & cable to be cosmic books whatsoever.

i read & enjoy nova, but i'd be surprised to see the title continue with sales like this. the book has had a pretty healthy run thus far, probably better than most would have anticipated. i'll stick with the title for the duration but if there's no longer a market for it i'm willing to accept that.

[FlyingFox]

I don't think there is anything to worry about, at least for the time being. Sales for Nova and Guardians of the Galaxy fluctuate rather frequently.

[JohnSD]

Pretty much all the X-titles were down last month as well, so it's probably just a depressed month rather than a trend for any particular title...

[RBishop]

Given the strength of the cosmic books since ANNIHILATION and how long that stability has lasted (almost 3 years now), I can't see Marvel abandoning them anytime soon. The division has gotta be safe for as long as Realm of Kings goes on, and beyond that.....maybe a relaunch after that, but certainly not outright cancellation.
Have to disagree with your premise here.

How are you judging "strength" of the cosmic books? Despite critical acclaim from industry publications and online board posters of books like Nova or GotG, the sales figures don't bear out overwhelming interest in the books themselves.

IMHO, there is a tendency to think that because a whole bunch of people on CBR are in agreement that Nova is awesome, that there is a huge amount of support for a book; again, look at the Captain Britain & MI:13 threads where there was nothing but love for that series, and that one didn't even last 18 issues. What we forget is that CBR is a magnet for comics fans, and a pretty strong one, so that while there may be a lot of people posting about how great GotG is, they may actually be a high percentage of the book's actual fans (as there are still some comics fans who don't participate in online message boards, hard as it is to believe).

Also, look at DC, where characters such as Wonder Woman and Aquaman have been cancelled multiple times; those weren't reboots or issuances of new #1's to drive up sales, but rather financially-dictated decisions based on slumping sales and lack of interest in the characters by the general comic-buying public. If DC is willing to abandon characters that date back to the Golden Age and have name recognition in pop culture due to Super-Friends and other multi-media outlets, do you think that non-household names like Darkhawk and Rocket Raccoon are above being cancelled, simply because they are part of books that have lasted for two or three years?

Finally, what does a relaunch accomplish if the line has shown that it cannot support itself? That is why Marvel's decision to relaunch "Vengeance of the Moon Knight" just after cancelling "Moon Knight" is puzzling; if the previous book was not selling well, what makes anyone think that by changing the name and tweaking the direction, sales will suddenly skyrocket? How about the upteen relaunches of "Exiles" or "Cable"? Just by giving us a new series and a new #1 does not mean that interest in the book is going to grow, outside of the few remaining folks who buy every #1 issue or think that "maybe this time things will be different", even though it's the same character being put through the same paces as before.

[Sean Walsh]

How are you judging "strength" of the cosmic books? Despite critical acclaim from industry publications and online board posters of books like Nova or GotG, the sales figures don't bear out overwhelming interest in the books themselves.

I'm looking more at comments from Marvel officials (including Quesada) talking about how they were encouraged by how stable sales were and the creative direction of the cosmic titles, as well as the sales reports which seem to be impressed as how the books perform month-to-month.

Fault him if you want for other things, but Quesada's mandate that a character/series/line be revived only if there's a good story in it is a pretty good way of doign business; versus DC's "toss it at the wall and see if it sticks" routine, which result in books with FAR lower sales than NOVA, GOTG and MI-13...

And unlike MI-13, which was a single title whose events affected only itself, NOVA and GOTG are part of a revived cosmic line of titles, which has included and affected characters from the X-Men, Iron Man & the Initiative, Hulk and the Inhumans. So even if they're cancelled due to sales, the chances are more likely that Marvel will keep the cosmic line going somehow than completely abandoning it because NOVA's sales are down.

A few years back, folks like Nova, Quasar, Star-Lord and Rocket Raccoon would've been lucky to have gotten a one-shot, much less 2 ongoing series and 3 (soon to be 4) mini-events. Marvel's got confidence in the line to be giving it so much.

[blehbeh]

In these times, to keep books like the cosmic books going, I wouldn't be against something like a forced Avengers tie-in arc simply to change the names to "Avengers presents: Guardians of the Galaxy" or Nova.

If that's the way things are heading, and that gets sales up, then so be it. Worth a shot.

[XPac]

In these times, to keep books like the cosmic books going, I wouldn't be against something like a forced Avengers tie-in arc simply to change the names to "Avengers presents: Guardians of the Galaxy" or Nova.

If that's the way things are heading, and that gets sales up, then so be it. Worth a shot.

I think something like that could have easily sprang out of Secret Invasion.

Have the Guardians deal with skrulls just to justify some sort of connection, and maybe place one Avenger on board just to somewhat make the Avengers connection legit.

It's a cheap gimmick, but whatever works.

[RBishop]

I'm looking more at comments from Marvel officials (including Quesada) talking about how they were encouraged by how stable sales were and the creative direction of the cosmic titles, as well as the sales reports which seem to be impressed as how the books perform month-to-month.
Haven't seen Quesada's comments about the cosmic line, but probably because I tend to ignore company-driven spin about their books. Not like he's going to come out and badmouth their publishing efforts.

Fault him if you want for other things, but Quesada's mandate that a character/series/line be revived only if there's a good story in it is a pretty good way of doign business; versus DC's "toss it at the wall and see if it sticks" routine, which result in books with FAR lower sales than NOVA, GOTG and MI-13...
I'm not a reader of DC, although I do follow the general news about the company, and I would tend to agree that Marvel seems to have a better business model than their competition in regards to event/series/line coordination, although I would disagree about your inclusion of character in that mix; there is some very uneven writing and continuity for certain characters depending on who is writing them.

And unlike MI-13, which was a single title whose events affected only itself, NOVA and GOTG are part of a revived cosmic line of titles, which has included and affected characters from the X-Men, Iron Man & the Initiative, Hulk and the Inhumans. So even if they're cancelled due to sales, the chances are more likely that Marvel will keep the cosmic line going somehow than completely abandoning it because NOVA's sales are down.
Agreed that the reach of the cosmic line is more far-reaching than that of MI:13, but overall, the sales for the line are slumping toward the usual cancellation level. If Nova slips below 20K per month and GotG is limping along in the mid-20K range, what does Marvel have to hang its cosmic line hat onto, seeing as those are the two most visible ongoing titles in the line? Does the line continue as a series of event titles, minis and one-shots, designed to keep the characters in the public eye or does Marvel keep flagging titles going for the sake of the line, even when it does not become economically-viable to continue publishing them? I don't know the answer to that, but they have shown a fairly quick axe with other titles, and I would doubt that would change with this line as well.

A few years back, folks like Nova, Quasar, Star-Lord and Rocket Raccoon would've been lucky to have gotten a one-shot, much less 2 ongoing series and 3 (soon to be 4) mini-events. Marvel's got confidence in the line to be giving it so much.
Nova has had multiple ongoings dating back to the '70s and Quasar had a fairly lengthy one (60 issues, IIRC), all of which eventually petered out, and don't forget the long-running Silver Surfer ongoing from the '80s and '90s. I don't know if Marvel putting all of this out there is confidence in the line or hoping that it catches on somehow. Also, the economic viability of minis is much different than it is for ongoings, so while they may be happy with 17K-20K for a mini, an ongoing at that level is not long for the world most likely.

The economic landscape for comics publishers has completely changed, which is why I doubt we will ever see a character like Dr. Strange or Ghost Rider having multiple 75+ issue ongoings again. The comics-buying public is being driven toward the mainstream characters, and as such, they are both less-willing to give new titles for B- and C-level characters a chance and are less-forgiving when it comes to dropping a title; the Marvel Zombie days are over, where people bought titles for years on end because they were dedicated to the brand, replaced by a more fickle fanbase that thinks nothing of dropping a book they aren't completely sold on since the issues cost $3.99, not $.35 or $50.

[agrich]

I think cosmic characters and titles have a limited appeal and will always have a limited appeal. I don't think increased promotion or a different artist will change that. There are some people who just won't ever want to read about Nova or Adam Warlock or ANY space- and cosmic-based characters, and that's the way it is.

I'm one of the people who does, of course, but I'm also aware it's not everyone's cup of tea. As a for instance, cosmic fans here talk about awesome Nova is; I liked it for a while but it simply lost my interest. It's not a case of art or promotion; it's a case of my not liking it enough to keep buying it. THAT'S what will ultimately kill books like Nova or Guardians: losing the reliable fans they have, not failing to attract new ones.

I also tend to believe that starting threads fretting about sales or whatever becomes self-fulfilling. If people believe a title is in trouble, they either become less invested in it or are less inclined to pick it up. So I don't even like the discussion, personally. I can't prove that I'm right, of course, but that's my sense anyway, right or wrong.

I choose to believe the cosmic titles are fine in Marvel's eyes and will keep buying them (well, Guardians anyway) each and every month for as long as they're around. I wish as many people liked Guardians as like something like Loeb's Hulk book, but I also understand that far more people watch stupid television like Deal or No Deal or whatever than brilliant shows like Sarah Connor Chronicles. What are you gonna do, most people are stupid and/or don't want to be challenged or have to think too much. Welcome to Planet Earth.

[XPac]

I think cosmic characters and titles have a limited appeal and will always have a limited appeal. I don't think increased promotion or a different artist will change that. There are some people who just won't ever want to read about Nova or Adam Warlock or ANY space- and cosmic-based characters, and that's the way it is.

I'm one of the people who does, of course, but I'm also aware it's not everyone's cup of tea. As a for instance, cosmic fans here talk about awesome Nova is; I liked it for a while but it simply lost my interest. It's not a case of art or promotion; it's a case of my not liking it enough to keep buying it. THAT'S what will ultimately kill books like Nova or Guardians: losing the reliable fans they have, not failing to attract new ones.

I also tend to believe that starting threads fretting about sales or whatever becomes self-fulfilling. If people believe a title is in trouble, they either become less invested in it or are less inclined to pick it up. So I don't even like the discussion, personally. I can't prove that I'm right, of course, but that's my sense anyway, right or wrong.

I choose to believe the cosmic titles are fine in Marvel's eyes and will keep buying them (well, Guardians anyway) each and every month for as long as they're around. I wish as many people liked Guardians as like something like Loeb's Hulk book, but I also understand that far more people watch stupid television like Deal or No Deal or whatever than brilliant shows like Sarah Connor Chronicles. What are you gonna do, most people are stupid and/or don't want to be challenged or have to think too much. Welcome to Planet Earth.

I agree with that for SOME cosmic characters... but a character like Nova I think can easily have cross over appeal, because probably spend the majority of his publication career being an earth bound hero.

One can argue right now is really the first time he's ever been niched as a true cosmic superhero.

There are certain characters that aren't JUST cosmic characters. So I think Nova could potentially keep chugging along even if all the other cosmic stuff just sort of vanished one day. He's got potential mass appeal, even if he hasn't quite achieved that just yet.

[stingerman]

I think cosmic characters and titles have a limited appeal and will always have a limited appeal. I don't think increased promotion or a different artist will change that. There are some people who just won't ever want to read about Nova or Adam Warlock or ANY space- and cosmic-based characters, and that's the way it is.



I disagree as Blackest Night was the top selling comic as well as GL and GLC. They are both "cosmic" and space books -- and fans are eating that stuff up,

Fans for some reason, just aren't picking these titles up. Whether its due to retailers not ordering (Nova and GoTG) always sell out in my area and sometimes I have to travel to three different stores to acquire a copy or Marvel not promoting enough, I'm not sure.

People do like space books, after all I think most comic fans like the sci fi stuff?

Shoot, Marvel should do a buy an issue get one cosmic free with Captain America :biggrin: .

[XPac]

I disagree as Blackest Night was the top selling comic as well as GL and GLC. They are both "cosmic" and space books -- and fans are eating that stuff up,

Fans for some reason, just aren't picking these titles up. Whether its due to retailers not ordering (Nova and GoTG) always sell out in my area and sometimes I have to travel to three different stores to acquire a copy or Marvel not promoting enough, I'm not sure.

People do like space books, after all I think most comic fans like the sci fi stuff?

Shoot, Marvel should do a buy an issue get one cosmic free with Captain America :biggrin: .

Blackest Night is really an example of a cosmic story that isn't niched... Infinity Gauntlet would be another.

The thing with the marvel stuff is that it's a bit removed from the mainstream MU stuff. It's off on the side doing it's own thing... whereas Blackest Night is right smack dab in the middle of things.

[RBishop]

I disagree as Blackest Night was the top selling comic as well as GL and GLC. They are both "cosmic" and space books -- and fans are eating that stuff up,
Blackest Night is an event title that involves cosmic characters, not a cosmic book, and the spike in GL and GLC sales are directly tied to the event itself, as they are intimately entwined with the core event.. Nearly every title in the DCU is being affected by Blackest Night, so that automatically ramps up interest among the general DC-buying public, much in the same way that Secret Invasion or Civil War did with Marvel.

Fans for some reason, just aren't picking these titles up.
Because
1) there are no big name characters involved, and;
2) these characters, who are essentially B- and C-level, have limited commercial appeal.

If Marvel had Iron Man join the GotG, as a means of escaping both the fallout of Civil War and the Norman Osborn regime, people who would never consider buying GotG in its current incarnation would be more likely to pick it up because a "name brand" character was involved or they might be a huge Iron Man fan. Without that star power, GotG is just a collection of quirky characters that, while well-written, don't grab the average fan's interest.

I'm as big a Marvel supporter as they come. I've been reading Marvel for over 30 years and own just about 6000 Marvel books, but I can count on two hands the number of "cosmic book" issues I own (the last few issues of the original Nova series, the two "Acts of Vengeance" issues of Quasar and the issue of Quasar that had Modred in it). The characters, for the most part, don't appeal to me, so if Marvel cannot sell these books to a die-hard like me, what chance do they really have with Generic Comic Buyer Guy who likes his Batman and Superman and Spider-man because he's seen the movies or used to watch Super-Friends?

[Kylun123]

Deadpool is just a much more enjoyable comic.

Wrong . . . .

[Kylun123]

Fault him if you want for other things, but Quesada's mandate that a character/series/line be revived only if there's a good story in it is a pretty good way of doign business; versus DC's "toss it at the wall and see if it sticks" routine...

Not sure, I kind of felt like that was Marvel's routine. Not really sure how they're different.

Over the last 5 years Marvel has had dozens of series start and fold within a year or 2 . . .

[scouse mouse]

All comics are suffering. Look how bad the Dark reign minis are selling, Mighty Avengers and Avengers: Initiative are also well down. And Spider Woman has had a weak debut for a Bendis book. Its just a bad month overall for all comic sales.

[Forth World]

The Rules:

1. Cosmics do not consistently sell well unless they have at least some regular tie in with Earth.

2. Cosmics do not consistently sell well unless they have at least some regular tie in with mainstream characters.

3. Cosmics do not consistently sell well unless one of the main protagonists is from present-day earth.

So...Green Lantern Corps does well. Son of Hulk did well till it broke the rules.

But REBELS is failing and Strange Adventures failed.

Haven't been following GoG til just recently. But I'd guess they've been violating The Rules.

[mightyness]

I also tend to believe that starting threads fretting about sales or whatever becomes self-fulfilling. If people believe a title is in trouble, they either become less invested in it or are less inclined to pick it up. So I don't even like the discussion, personally. I can't prove that I'm right, of course, but that's my sense anyway, right or wrong.

I

I think what you said here is key. All this talk about sales down just pushes people away. See Captain Britain-MI-13 as an example. I sorry you no longer like Nova any longer as I feel is has only gotten consistently better especially with Divito's art.

[mightyness]

[INDENT]
But REBELS is failing and Strange Adventures failed.

Haven't been following GoG til just recently. But I'd guess they've been violating The Rules.

Yeah but Strange Adventures IMHO was pure garbage. Which is sad because I love of of the characters and Starlin's older work, but lately he hasn't done anything terribly original and seems to be rehashing the same ideas over and over.

REBELS I enjoy but I think needs to move the story along faster.

[TOAA]

In these times, to keep books like the cosmic books going, I wouldn't be against something like a forced Avengers tie-in arc simply to change the names to "Avengers presents: Guardians of the Galaxy" or Nova.

If that's the way things are heading, and that gets sales up, then so be it. Worth a shot.

I think that they should have made GotG vs New Avengers, or in other words Adam Warlock/Magus vs Dr. Strange for the Soul Gem with others running around.

Nova has had multiple ongoings dating back to the '70s

But now, in this different landscape of economics, Nova has already longest run and will probably last at least for 10 more issues. Something after all is working.

The economic landscape for comics publishers has completely changed, which is why I doubt we will ever see a character like Dr. Strange or Ghost Rider having multiple 75+ issue ongoings again.

We might just see that with Deadpool.

Blackest Night is an event title that involves cosmic characters, not a cosmic book, and the spike in GL and GLC sales are directly tied to the event itself, as they are intimately entwined with the core event..

No, GLC was climbing up for months before anyone really knew what BN will be about.

[stingerman]

Blackest Night is really an example of a cosmic story that isn't niched... Infinity Gauntlet would be another.

The thing with the marvel stuff is that it's a bit removed from the mainstream MU stuff. It's off on the side doing it's own thing... whereas Blackest Night is right smack dab in the middle of things.

Yeah but GL never used to be. Sinestro war was a sleeper hit, since then GL exploded.

[Brandon Hanvey]

What numbers are generally considered "cancellation numbers"? I don't often look at the sales of comics, but I'd be pretty upset of Guardians got cancelled. Nova too for that matter.


For a monthly regular Marvel series, around 20,000 or under if you go by the recent cancellations such as Iron Fist, Exiles or Runaways.

Though given recent trends at Marvel, they may cancel the series and either try to launch it as a mini series (Iron Fist, Ghost Rider) or re-tool it and try another series (Exiles).

[Expletive Deleted]

I also tend to believe that starting threads fretting about sales or whatever becomes self-fulfilling. If people believe a title is in trouble, they either become less invested in it or are less inclined to pick it up. So I don't even like the discussion, personally. I can't prove that I'm right, of course, but that's my sense anyway, right or wrong.I tend to be of the same opinion.

Obsessing over the sales estimates is an interesting sideline, but I don't think it accomplishes much beyond ratcheting up the level of "us against the world" paranoia about a title's possible cancellation. Especially when it provokes a wave of desperate proselytizing (no offense intended, MI-13 fans).

And, again, I feel compelled to point out that while Nova and Guardians are down this month, they were up last month because of the frame variants. The month-to-month drops look worse than they actually are. There's a general downward trend, but there's always a general downward trend. As for when it becomes too steep or goes to low . . . we can make educated guesses based on past behavior and it's always fun to see if those guesses turn out to be accurate, but they're still guesses.

By the way, for those making MI-13 comparisons . . .

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/expletivedeleted/Sales.png
(estimates on the Y axis, issue number on the X axis)

[Kylun123]

By the way, for those making MI-13 comparisons . . .

Great graph.

Is there any way you can do it by date instead of "issue #"?

[crimsondiablo]

No good, I may have to jump on the cosmic bandwagon. I havent read any of the Marvel space titles, but I do repect the amount of continuity the writers hold. I was just starting to get into Cap Brit when that got cancelled (Noone told me Union Jack was appearing in a monthly title). I always liked Nova though and if sales are dropping Im sure my one pick up will do something....right?

[stingerman]

Blackest Night is an event title that involves cosmic characters, not a cosmic book, and the spike in GL and GLC sales are directly tied to the event itself, as they are intimately entwined with the core event.. Nearly every title in the DCU is being affected by Blackest Night, so that automatically ramps up interest among the general DC-buying public, much in the same way that Secret Invasion or Civil War did with Marvel.


Because
1) there are no big name characters involved, and;
2) these characters, who are essentially B- and C-level, have limited commercial appeal.

If Marvel had Iron Man join the GotG, as a means of escaping both the fallout of Civil War and the Norman Osborn regime, people who would never consider buying GotG in its current incarnation would be more likely to pick it up because a "name brand" character was involved or they might be a huge Iron Man fan. Without that star power, GotG is just a collection of quirky characters that, while well-written, don't grab the average fan's interest.

I'm as big a Marvel supporter as they come. I've been reading Marvel for over 30 years and own just about 6000 Marvel books, but I can count on two hands the number of "cosmic book" issues I own (the last few issues of the original Nova series, the two "Acts of Vengeance" issues of Quasar and the issue of Quasar that had Modred in it). The characters, for the most part, don't appeal to me, so if Marvel cannot sell these books to a die-hard like me, what chance do they really have with Generic Comic Buyer Guy who likes his Batman and Superman and Spider-man because he's seen the movies or used to watch Super-Friends?

I agree with you. I would argue more that Silver Surfer would have the commercial appeal and would be more on scale with what DC has done over the years with GL, however, Marvel just chooses not to use him for some reason or another.

Regarding Nova and GoTG I would say they have the potential to be a "Green Lantern" especially in regards to Nova. Marvel just needs to build Rich up and keeping doing so. Sidelining him during WoKs and Conquest was not the way to go, imo. They seem to be getting with the program by including him in Marvel Adventures Superheroes and Avengers: Initiative.

Hopefully, when RoKs hits, sales pick up - and more so than they did with WoKs which wasn't much.

[stingerman]

By the way, for those making MI-13 comparisons . . .

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/expletivedeleted/Sales.png
(estimates on the Y axis, issue number on the X axis)

So ten or fifteen more issues then, Ed?

[Alex Smith]

So ten or fifteen more issues then, Ed?

Is that really all it looks like we're going to get? That's a downer.

[Kylun123]

No good, I may have to jump on the cosmic bandwagon. I havent read any of the Marvel space titles, but I do repect the amount of continuity the writers hold. I was just starting to get into Cap Brit when that got cancelled (Noone told me Union Jack was appearing in a monthly title). I always liked Nova though and if sales are dropping Im sure my one pick up will do something....right?

Wow. That's pretty respectable. Thanks.

[ClanAskani]

Keep in mind that these numbers aren’t how many copies were purchased by consumers but by comic shops, which have to predict how many copies their customers will buy. If shops are left with a surplus month after month and don’t think something (like an event) is going to increase demand, they’re going to reduce their order.

There’s a lot of guessing on whether the recession is over and whether people will start spending more.

The store I shop at is really hurting financially since sales are so bad of anything other than new issues of comics (like back issues and expensive collectibles and toys). For the lower selling books, they’re only ordering what’s on customers’ pull-list to avoid being left with a lot of issues unsold on the shelves. (It’s been annoying, since I can’t look through X-Men Forever without buying it.)

Stuff like that’s not going to help lower selling books gain readers.


Also, it’s a rather shame that War of Kings didn’t do more to boost the sales of Nova and GotG.

Other low selling books have stuck around based by boosting sales during events. But WoK didn't seem to have helped Nova or GotG, probably because they were only tangentially involved.

The cosmic books haven’t done much to try to get X-Fans to read GoTG and Nova with a decent X-Jammers guest appearance. Or to get X-fans into WoK by having have something like have Charles Xavier appear at the funeral for Lilandra. Something other than just dragging on the Vulcan saga even longer.

Fans of the cosmic books seem to like how they are completely separate from everything else going on elsewhere in Marvel. But to other readers, that makes the cosmic books completely irrelevant.

There was a massive drop for Cable this month – which is the main lead-in for the next X-Event, but if it’s not tied into what’s going on in the other core X-books, readers leave it in droves. Readers just aren’t interested unless it’s immediately important to the general story of what’s going on.

But since the current readers of the cosmic books seem annoyed that there’s been so many events, I can’t see it being popular with them to have more tie-ins with earth based books. Yet, that may be the only way to gain more readers and have the books actually be relevant.

[Sighphi]

AoA was canceled in name only, what with the X-Men/Atlas series, followed by Hercules/Atlas, followed by TBolts/Atlas, followed (in the new solicits) Avengers/Atlas AND a Bob Solo mini.

If only all books got "canceled" like that.:tongue:

No books getting canceled like that is just as bad.
Now we have semi random stories with folks from the MU AT 3.99.

The space on-goings ARE dying (one reason) because all of this event stuff. They havent had a chance to develop themselves that much and BAM! hijacked for event. Annihilation and Conquest were good but WOK was bad and that thing STILL isnt over. Space books were just launched a little over 3 years ago and we already had 3 events with a fourth coming up. This needs to stop, they HAVE to let this thing breathe. They have to have a little space where they can develop and even try to pop out a few more on-goings.

Because seriously..... the way it is now there is no point in on-goings, all you do is wait for the big events since everything is going to revolved around that anyway. The in-between is just padding.

Oh and yeah, the 17 X-men books, 9 Avengers, 5 Hulks, and the rest arent helping when it comes to stores and the space they have to make to sell all of that. By the way those were random numbers to prove the point that there are a lot of those different titles. I didnt feel like counting the exact numbers but we know they have a lot.

[Sighphi]

I think what you said here is key. All this talk about sales down just pushes people away. See Captain Britain-MI-13 as an example. I sorry you no longer like Nova any longer as I feel is has only gotten consistently better especially with Divito's art.

MI-13 is not an example. MI-13 was canceled half way into it's run, Marvel just let it ride a bit longer so they could get trades out of the sucker.

[Expletive Deleted]

Great graph.

Is there any way you can do it by date instead of "issue #"?Sure. I think it's less useful in terms of identifying trends, but I guess it makes it easier to identify event months and whatnot. And, heck, I'll even toss in Incredible Herc.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/expletivedeleted/Sales-Date.png

So ten or fifteen more issues then, Ed?Hell if I know.

[stingerman]

Sure. I think it's less useful in terms of identifying trends, but I guess it makes it easier to identify event months and whatnot. And, heck, I'll even toss in Incredible Herc.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/expletivedeleted/Sales-Date.png

Hell if I know.

Nice graph. Definitely supports the theory that these titles are getting squeezed out by all the mini events.

Ahh well, I am done with complaining about the sales and instead, focusing on promotion. :wink:

[FZ1]

I'm not shocked that Guardians might be declining, if that's indeed what's happening. So-so artists, and a convoluted storyline that makes it not terribly newbie friendly.

Still, the comsics have another event on the horizen... perhaps that will create a small boost.

I'm a Noob to all things cosmic ('cept Galactus and Surfer) and I thought GotGuardians was the best-handled cast of characters this side of Avengers: Initiative. I know few if any backstories, but GotG was a delightful breeze to read and follow.

Same with Nova. Picked it up with its latest ongoing launch. The fact is, I've been watching with trepidation these numbers for several months now. I had a bad feeling about the the whole War of Kings thing, and now Realm of Kings. I don't care about the X-Lax universe and I have always found the Inhumans to be stupefyingly boring. Pompous royalty and an entire universe of whining muties just didn't work well in The Galaxy, and, in my opinion, was a wrong turn that made nobody happy.

Too bad. I suppose at some point, the cosmic stuff will be folded into one book with Nova and Drax and Gamora and Rocky et al. DnA are outrageously talented, and they whipped up something I could get into compared to the kookie and incomprehensible DC events.

I have no doubt that the suits at Disney will manage to do what nobody else can: Destroy the Universe.

I'll take that chill pill now.

[FZ1]

The Rules:

1. Cosmics do not consistently sell well unless they have at least some regular tie in with Earth.

2. Cosmics do not consistently sell well unless they have at least some regular tie in with mainstream characters.

3. Cosmics do not consistently sell well unless one of the main protagonists is from present-day earth.

So...Green Lantern Corps does well. Son of Hulk did well till it broke the rules.

But REBELS is failing and Strange Adventures failed.

Haven't been following GoG til just recently. But I'd guess they've been violating The Rules.

Ah, the Voice of God spells out the rules. The masses thank you for filling us in, but....the first and only rule of any creative endeavor is--wait for it--there are no rules.

[Lord S]

oddly Nova 29 didn't get a discussion thread - was it really that bad an issue?? Yeah I noticed that too...and in all honesty, I haven't even read it yet. It's been sitting for a few weeks.

I don't know if it's time to start thinking cancellation for Nova just yet...his sales do remain above the unstated 18-20K cut-off point. I suppose when we get a sense that his journey is winding down, or hear news of him joining a team in the near future, then that'll be the indicator. It'll be disappointing for sure...as a lot of us have put a lot of energy and love into this character since Annihilation, so it'll be sad to see him wind up on some team where he'll be wasted, (unless he joins the GoTG).

I do hope his sales turn around in the near future. Same with the Guardians. Let's hope Realm of Kings lives up to the hype.

[Forth World]

Ah, the Voice of God spells out the rules. The masses thank you for filling us in, but....the first and only rule of any creative endeavor is--wait for it--there are no rules.

Oh good. I must've missed all those long-running high-selling series with little tie-in with earth or mainstream characters and a wholly alien cast.

[Chavez]

As a for instance, cosmic fans here talk about awesome Nova is; I liked it for a while but it simply lost my interest. It's not a case of art or promotion; it's a case of my not liking it enough to keep buying it. THAT'S what will ultimately kill books like Nova or Guardians: losing the reliable fans they have, not failing to attract new ones.



I think this guy is right on. Really, this is an issue for all comics, but for the non-mainstream titles even more so. I will admit to being a lost 'reliable' fan. I started collecting comics as a kid because of Nova. Yet, I dropped the series, along with GotG, and mostly keep up with it by reading the boards.

Why? Event fatigue is most definitely part of it. The larger part is the briskness of the reads and the quality of the writing. I like DnA in general, and taken as a whole their plot arcs are well done, but some of their writing does annoy me. When you wait a month for a quick 5 minute read you just can't afford that. I moved on to trades, which are much more satisfying for reading sit downs, but with the infrequency of their publication I tend to miss when they do come out.

I do feel guilty for not supporting my childhood hero after seeing this, but it is what it is. I think Nova can and deserves to be successful. I don't think being cosmic precludes success or accessibility. If the writing and stories are good enough people will keep buying. I will say people who won't give the book a chance because it's cosmic are foolish. A good story is a good story.

[AllisterH]

The space on-goings ARE dying (one reason) because all of this event stuff. They havent had a chance to develop themselves that much and BAM! hijacked for event. Annihilation and Conquest were good but WOK was bad and that thing STILL isnt over.

That kind of makes no sense. The Nova book came out of Annihilation and similarly, GotG owes its existence to Conquest so it certainly can't be event fatigue.

[JulyDarth]

I think somebody mentioned in one of the preview threads that it`s missing in December and January. Maybe it`s just an error or short hiatus.

Yeah dead, but I know Marvel would do it. They lost perspective, their big arcs just don't do it anymore. Blackest Night worked much better, Marvel should be worried about their bigger titles many of my friends and I dropped Avengers a long time ago.

It might finally take something like Avengers tanking in sales for Marvel to finally wake up and do something.


Guardians of the Galaxy has been solid but nobody was buying in big