So are the X-Men a rip-off of the Doom Patrol?

[[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite]

First, there's all this:


Mutated freaks gathered by their wheelchair bound mentor in order to protect a world that fears and hates them. You think we are talking about the X-Men? No we are not. Well, we will be in a second, and technically we are, but not in this paragraph, except for the parts where we do.

They are a Rip-Off of:

The Doom Patrol, which debuted in comics three months before everybody's favorite, more marketable mutants.

Unlike the X-Men, the Doom Patrollers were once normal people who suffered an accident that disfigured them but also gave them superpowers. Shunned by the world for just being plain ugly, the freaks were gathered by Doctor Caulder, a paraplegic, who thought that maybe the world wouldn't dislike them so much if they used their powers to save the normal people's asses from giant robots once in a while.

If this sounds somewhat familiar to you, it's because the same thing as X-Men with the only difference that the smart guy in the wheelchair was bald in one and X-Men uses mutants as an allegory for minorities instead of people with elephantiasis or whatever the heck Doom Patrol was going for.

http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/dan/ripoffs/xmen3.jpg

Even the tag line is the same! At least make an effort, guys!

http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/dan/ripoffs/xmen4.jpg

Possibly, the most unnecessary thing borrowed by X-Men was the name of the Doom Patrol's enemies: The Brotherhood of Evil. In Doom Patrol the name made sense; because they were a group of evil assholes, which got together to do asshole things. There was never any confusion about what the group was about.

On the other hand Magneto stole the name, added the word mutant at the end of it and then whined endlessly about how humans persecuted and hated him. Maybe people hated you, Magneto, because your group's name was The Brotherhood of Evil Mutants and you went around the world trying to wipe out humanity?

http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/dan/ripoffs/xmen5.jpg

How successful would the American Paraplegia Society be if they called themselves the Brotherhood of Child Molesting Guys on Wheelchairs? Magneto's weak PR skills aren't the only reason the original Brotherhood looks awesome by comparison ...

http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/dan/ripoffs/xmen6.jpg


http://www.cracked.com/article_17299_6-famous-characters-you-didnt-know-were-shameless-rip-offs.html

Then there was this comment from the Doom Patrol's creator:


"...I’ve become more and more convinced that (Stan Lee) knowingly stole The X-Men from The Doom Patrol. Over the years I learned that an awful lot of writers and artists were working surreptitiously between (Marvel and DC). Therefore from when I first brought the idea into (DC editor) Murray Boltinoff’s office, it would’ve been easy for someone to walk over and hear that (I was) working on a story about a bunch of reluctant superheroes who are led by a man in a wheelchair. So over the years I began to feel that Stan had more lead time than I realized. He may well have had four, five or even six months."

http://comiccoverage.typepad.com/comic_coverage/2007/04/which_came_firs.html


I don't know. A lot of this is probably just coincidence. Still, some of the similarities are too close for comfort.

[Monty_Cristo]

Doom Patrol's a ripoff of Shortpack's garage band.

[Personamanx]

It's little more than a Coincidence IMO.

[jarvSthe1]

I'm pretty sure this is old news. Well old to us old guys anyway :)

[[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite]

It's little more than a Coincidence IMO.

I get what you mean, especially the part about the Brotherhood. :frown:

[NielsVanEekelen]

Let me paraphrase what Neil Gaiman said about a certain boy wizard's similarity to his Tim Hunter: Stan Lee is a shrewd fellow. If he'd knowingly ripped off another property, he would at least have been smart enough to change some things.

In other words, if you see a cool concept and steal it, why copy relatively unnecessary detail such as the slogan or the Brotherhood name to make it more obvious?

[[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite]

Let me paraphrase what Neil Gaiman said about a certain boy wizard's similarity to his Tim Hunter: Stan Lee is a shrewd fellow. If he'd knowingly ripped off another property, he would at least have been smart enough to change some things.

In other words, if you see a cool concept and steal it, why copy relatively unnecessary detail such as the slogan or the Brotherhood name to make it more obvious?

That's why this doesn't make sense.

Were junior editors pitching this stuff to him?

[Blade X]

the x~men are not a rip off of the doom pafrol. about a year or two before the dp made their comic book debute stan wrofe a back up story in an issue of amazing fantasy about a guy with mutant powers who is recruited by a mysterious bald headed telepathic mutant to join him and other mutants. on the flip side, it can be argued that the dp are a rip off of the fantastic four.

[The Black Guardian]

on the flip side, it can be argued that the dp are a rip off of the fantastic four.
Precisely. The original DP have more in common with the FF than they do with the X-Men.

[[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite]

the x~men are not a rip off of the doom pafrol. about a year or two before the dp made their comic book debute stan wrofe a back up story in an issue of amazing fantasy about a guy with mutant powers who is recruited by a mysterious bald headed telepathic mutant to join him and other mutants. on the flip side, it can be argued that the dp are a rip off of the fantastic four.

Really? :confused: Which issue was it? I'm sincerely curious. I'd like to read it.

And was this bald telepath in a wheelchair?


on the flip side, it can be argued that the dp are a rip off of the fantastic four.


Precisely. The original DP have more in common with the FF than they do with the X-Men.

Actually, the Fantastic Four has way more in common with the Challengers of the Unknown than it does with the Doom Patrol. Then again, it's understandable since Kirby co-created the COTU.

But when it comes to DP and the original X-Men series, there's more strong similarities. Some things just scream WTF, such as again, the "Evil Brotherhood of Mutants" thing, in which both incarnations of these "Brotherhoods" came some time after the creation of both first issue stories. Like I said, it still might be a coincidence.

[jarvSthe1]

D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite;9840834']Really? :confused: Which issue was it? I'm sincerely curious. I'd like to read it.

And was this bald telepath in a wheelchair?

I believe his name (the mutant recruited, not the bald guy on a wheelchair) is Tad Carter but he was not recruited by a bald mutant on a wheelchair. He was a telepath though and Tad Carter was the first character that Marvel used the word 'mutant' on. We never saw what the telepath looked like until Byrne's X-Men: The Lost Years and he was not bald nor on a wheelchair. However, since we never saw this telepath under Stan's direction maybe he was meant to be Professor X? If so then I guess the X-Men are not a rip off of Doom Patrol.

It was an issue of Amazing Adult Fantasy (I think) but it was reprinted in X-Men Rarities.

EDIT: Here is a link with some of the panels.
http://thatsmyskull.blogspot.com/2005/07/before-x-men-there-was-tad-carter.html

[FanboyStranger]

I think the real question here is why are those early Doom Patrols by Drake and Premiani so much better and more inspired than Lee and Kirby's X-Men?

[Brian Cronin]

I actually address this bit in my book!

Basically I'm going with "Coincidence."

And yeah, Drake's early Doom Patrol was worlds better than early X-Men.

-Brian

[AdamYJ]

I thinki it's a continuous cycle of ripping off.

Challengers of the Unknown begat Fantastic Four begat Doom Patrol begat X-Men.

However, Marvel and DC have been ripping each other off for ages. It's practically a symbiotic state by this point.

[ZNOP]

I thinki it's a continuous cycle of ripping off.

Challengers of the Unknown begat Fantastic Four begat Doom Patrol begat X-Men.

However, Marvel and DC have been ripping each other off for ages. It's practically a symbiotic state by this point.

Do we have a side by side Hero vs. Hero comparison anywhere? I'm sure there has to be somewhere on the net. Although I'm equally sure there are bound to be discrepancies among said comparisons. Ex. IMO Superman≠Thor -- though a popular comparison.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A2982260

[[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite]

I believe his name (the mutant recruited, not the bald guy on a wheelchair) is Tad Carter but he was not recruited by a bald mutant on a wheelchair. He was a telepath though and Tad Carter was the first character that Marvel used the word 'mutant' on. We never saw what the telepath looked like until Byrne's X-Men: The Lost Years and he was not bald nor on a wheelchair. However, since we never saw this telepath under Stan's direction maybe he was meant to be Professor X? If so then I guess the X-Men are not a rip off of Doom Patrol.

It was an issue of Amazing Adult Fantasy (I think) but it was reprinted in X-Men Rarities.

EDIT: Here is a link with some of the panels.
http://thatsmyskull.blogspot.com/2005/07/before-x-men-there-was-tad-carter.html

Thanks for the link.

But as you said, we don't know if the guy is in a wheelchair or not, let alone what he looks like or if he's even Professor X. And even then, it wasn't until a Byrne story from much later on that we saw what that character looked like. So we still don't know if the Xavier we first saw in X-Men #1 was a take on the Chief or not.


I actually address this bit in my book!

Basically I'm going with "Coincidence."

And yeah, Drake's early Doom Patrol was worlds better than early X-Men.

-Brian

Speaking of, the original issues have been reprinted, right?


I thinki it's a continuous cycle of ripping off.

Challengers of the Unknown begat Fantastic Four begat Doom Patrol begat X-Men.

However, Marvel and DC have been ripping each other off for ages. It's practically a symbiotic state by this point.

True.

[Blade X]

D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite;9840834']Really? :confused: Which issue was it? I'm sincerely curious. I'd like to read it.

And was this bald telepath in a wheelchair?





Actually, the Fantastic Four has way more in common with the Challengers of the Unknown than it does with the Doom Patrol. Then again, it's understandable since Kirby co-created the COTU.

But when it comes to DP and the original X-Men series, there's more strong similarities. Some things just scream WTF, such as again, the "Evil Brotherhood of Mutants" thing, in which both incarnations of these "Brotherhoods" came some time after the creation of both first issue stories. Like I said, it still might be a coincidence.

I could be wrong, but I think that superhero teams like the CHALLENGERS OF THE UNKNOWN,SEA DEVILS,and the FF wereall influened by classic adventure team explorers from pulp stories like DOC SAVAGE.

[FanboyStranger]

D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite;9842722']Speaking of, the original issues have been reprinted, right?


Showcase Presents: Doom Patrol. A lot of strange (for the times at least)but very fun stories. Premiani's art still looks great, in my opinion.

[[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite]

I could be wrong, but I think that superhero teams like the CHALLENGERS OF THE UNKNOWN,SEA DEVILS,and the FF wereall influened by classic adventure team explorers from pulp stories like DOC SAVAGE.

You have a point. Sort of like Zorro influencing Batman and the like, I guess.


Showcase Presents: Doom Patrol. A lot of strange (for the times at least)but very fun stories. Premiani's art still looks great, in my opinion.

I'll check it out. Thanks. :cool:

[Chief Jon]

I think they're both brilliant series that explore the outsider as hero in very different ways. After all in addition to being freakish outcasts, the X-Men were, in their inception, students younger heroes who were nobody's side-kick. When Stan Lee talks about the X-Men that's what he tends to focus on. Them being outcasts, feared and hated in a way that the likes of the FF and Avengers are not is something that didn't full develop until the introduction of the Sentinels several issues into the series.

The Doom Patrol were adults who were trying to cope with the accidents that both destroyed the very successful lives they had been leading, and find a way to use the abilities that came to them by way of those accidents to regain acceptance from a society that has rejected them.

At the absoulte root the similarities are strong but the premise of these series really diverge from one another pretty quickly.

[BBeeryan]

I'm gonna have to say no because none of them can hold a candle to Ororo. But I could be a bit biased.

[[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite]

I think they're both brilliant series that explore the outsider as hero in very different ways. After all in addition to being freakish outcasts, the X-Men were, in their inception, students younger heroes who were nobody's side-kick. When Stan Lee talks about the X-Men that's what he tends to focus on. Them being outcasts, feared and hated in a way that the likes of the FF and Avengers are not is something that didn't full develop until the introduction of the Sentinels several issues into the series.

The Doom Patrol were adults who were trying to cope with the accidents that both destroyed the very successful lives they had been leading, and find a way to use the abilities that came to them by way of those accidents to regain acceptance from a society that has rejected them.

At the absoulte root the similarities are strong but the premise of these series really diverge from one another pretty quickly.

Yeah, it seems the next couple of years is where both titles started diverging, though the similarities in the origins and early issues were pretty strong.


I'm gonna have to say no because none of them can hold a candle to Ororo. But I could be a bit biased.

This is regarding the original X-Men series (which didn't include Storm).

[The Black Guardian]

D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite;9840834']Actually, the Fantastic Four has way more in common with the Challengers of the Unknown than it does with the Doom Patrol. Then again, it's understandable since Kirby co-created the COTU.
Yeah. No one is debating this. Everybody knows FF was inspired by CotU.

But when it comes to DP and the original X-Men series, there's more strong similarities. Some things just scream WTF, such as again, the "Evil Brotherhood of Mutants" thing, in which both incarnations of these "Brotherhoods" came some time after the creation of both first issue stories. Like I said, it still might be a coincidence.
No explanation makes sense other than coincidence, unless Stan and Drake were working together or psychic. Stan wouldn't have had any of this information to steal. There just wasn't time. The Brotherhood of Evil the X-Men's Brotherhood debuted in the same month.

But honestly, Doom Patrol had almost nothing in common, thematically, with the X-Men, whereas nearly everything about Doom Patrol was thematically the same as the FF. The only real difference is that the FF had the family circle foundation.

[[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite]

Yeah. No one is debating this. Everybody knows FF was inspired by CotU.

No explanation makes sense other than coincidence, unless Stan and Drake were working together or psychic. Stan wouldn't have had any of this information to steal. There just wasn't time. The Brotherhood of Evil the X-Men's Brotherhood debuted in the same month.

There was the whole "spy" theory Arnold Drake brought up. I'm not sure. These projects still have to be reviewed by editors months before they're published.


But honestly, Doom Patrol had almost nothing in common, thematically, with the X-Men, whereas nearly everything about Doom Patrol was thematically the same as the FF. The only real difference is that the FF had the family circle foundation.

But like AdamYJ and Blade X stated, most team books, including JLA, tended to borrow themes froms stuff like Challengers of the Unknown and pulp stories.

The problem with the Doom Patrol/X-Men thing goes is that it goes beyond themes and begins delving into key elements (wheelchair mentor,"freaks", Brotherhood, the "Strangest Heroes" tagline on the cover of both books, etc).

[Chief Jon]

Yeah. No one is debating this. Everybody knows FF was inspired by CotU.

I wouldn't put that in quite the same category as what this thread is debating. Challengers of the Unknown and FF both followed what I like to call the, Kirby Formula," of Heart of the Team/Love Interest, Smart Guy, Strong Guy, Young Guy/Joker with one of them clearly acting as the Leader. You see the same basic archetypal character dynamic in a lot of organizations and Kirby and his collaborators used it A LOT. Most well known are the Challengers and the Fantastic Four, but there's also the Boy Commandos, the Newboy Legion, Boys Ranch, and (if we really stretch the formula) the Forever People. Of course that's just stuff Kirby was involved in. Other examples by different creators would include the Sea Devils, Cave Carson and his group, Rip Hunter, Time Master and his group. Even the [real] Ghostbusters and the Mystery Gang from Scooby-Doo conform to this group structure. The original Doom Patrol do essentially fit the formula, but I personally believe, to Arnold Drake's credit, that their relationships are more complex and the roles each character fulfills are a little more blurred than in most of the examples above. Anyway, the point I'm laboring to make is that I don't consider the Doom Patrol any more of a rip off of the Fantastic Four than they were of the CotU than they were of the Boys Ranch gang, etc. It's just an archetypal formula, and while I haven't read Joseph Campbell's full works I wouldn't be too surprised if we could find said formula referenced somewhere in there.

[Sighphi]

Yeeeesss.

.

[Ventura]

I wouldn't put that in quite the same category as what this thread is debating. Challengers of the Unknown and FF both followed what I like to call the, Kirby Formula," of Heart of the Team/Love Interest, Smart Guy, Strong Guy, Young Guy/Joker with one of them clearly acting as the Leader. You see the same basic archetypal character dynamic in a lot of organizations and Kirby and his collaborators used it A LOT. Most well known are the Challengers and the Fantastic Four, but there's also the Boy Commandos, the Newboy Legion, Boys Ranch, and (if we really stretch the formula) the Forever People. Of course that's just stuff Kirby was involved in. Other examples by different creators would include the Sea Devils, Cave Carson and his group, Rip Hunter, Time Master and his group...

Very good rundown of the basic team formaula used by Kirby (both on his own and earlier, with Simon) and others. Kudos!

And as someone else mentioned earlier, the Doc Savage-FF connection is something that's well known. Doc's cohorts included a brainy scientist leader, Dr. Savage...big Monk Mayfair (Thing precursor)...unofficial member Ms. Pat Savage (cousin of Doc, so there's the family element also present in the FF also used)...Johnny Littlejohn (the name points to Johnny Storm, but this Johnny used big words, so both he and Doc Savage could be said to be protoypes for Reed).

But there's always "borrowing" and tweaking, so that something different is created...another case in point, Batman shares a lot with the pulps' Shadow.


...Although I'm equally sure there are bound to be discrepancies among said comparisons. Ex. IMO Superman≠Thor -- though a popular comparison.

Some are of the opinion that Thor (back when he first appeared) was a reworking of Fawcett's Captain Marvel (Blake changes his form into big, musclebound hero). But since DC maintained that CM was a rip-off of Superman, I guess it all fits!:biggrin:

I admit the coincidence of calling the Doom Patrol "The World's Strangest Heroes" and the X-Men "The Strangest Super-Heroes (or Teens) of All" gives me pause, but it seems like any good creator, Stan concocted the X-Men from a variety of sources. In terms of Professor X and some other elements in the early X-Men series, Stan was probably aware of the slew of 1950s novels about mutants (which featured the term "homo superior" and battles between good and bad mutants). Most influential seems to have been Henry Kuttner's "Mutant", which featured a race of mutants who were telepathic--and bald!

Speaking Doom Patrol's Arnold Drake, in late 1968, Drake--a fine, imaginative writer, IMO--scripted some relatively bland X-Men issues- -though he did create Lorna Dane. Some of the dialogue (esp. in the Lorna Dane arc) was just plain strange and not up to his earlier work. He seemed to have lost his touch by this time.

[fod_xp]

D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite;9835917']First, there's all this:



http://www.cracked.com/article_17299_6-famous-characters-you-didnt-know-were-shameless-rip-offs.html

Then there was this comment from the Doom Patrol's creator:



http://comiccoverage.typepad.com/comic_coverage/2007/04/which_came_firs.html


I don't know. A lot of this is probably just coincidence. Still, some of the similarities are too close for comfort.

This was established a looooong time ago. Heck, Kurt Wagner was supposed to exist in the DCU.

[Chief Jon]

Speaking Doom Patrol's Arnold Drake, in late 1968, Drake--a fine, imaginative writer, IMO--scripted some relatively bland X-Men issues- -though he did create Lorna Dane. Some of the dialogue (esp. in the Lorna Dane arc) was just plain strange and not up to his earlier work. He seemed to have lost his touch by this time.

This is true and I thought about bringing it up earlier. When I caught it in Essential Classic X-Men vol. 3 I had to do a double take. He gave them some REALLY goofy dialogue.

[Blade X]

This is true and I thought about bringing it up earlier. When I caught it in Essential Classic X-Men vol. 3 I had to do a double take. He gave them some REALLY goofy dialogue.

To be fare, those issues were published in the 60's, so most dialogue from back then would seem goofy to those of us who didn't grow up during that era. However, to a kid back in the 60's, that dialogue might not come off so goofy. And for the record, I say all of this without having read the issues being discussed.

[Chief Jon]

To be [fare], those issues were published in the 60's, so most dialogue from back then would seem goofy to those of us who didn't grow up during that era. However, to a kid back in the 60's, that dialogue might not come off so goofy. And for the record, I say all of this without having read the issues being discussed.

I have read them, I've read every X-Men story published in an Essential collection up to this point including the Stan Lee written issues that preceded the few issues Arnold Drake scripted and the Roy Thomas issues that followed them. I've also read all of Drake's Doom Patrol stuff as far as it's been published in the Showcase reprint (FINALLY!), and relative to all those things the few issues of X-Men that Drake scripted were incredibly silly. To read Drake's Doom Patrol work it is clear that he was a very talented with dialogue and character development. To read his X-Men work however is one of the best examples of the Silver Age of super heroes I've ever read of an adult writer putting a really half-@$$ed effort into writing for hip, teenage or young adult characters with results that are most politely called goofy.

[Chief Jon]

DP is also an acronym for "Double-Post".

[[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite]

I have read them, I've read every X-Men story published in an Essential collection up to this point including the Stan Lee written issues that preceded the few issues Arnold Drake scripted and the Roy Thomas issues that followed them. I've also read all of Drake's Doom Patrol stuff as far as it's been published in the Showcase reprint (FINALLY!), and relative to all those things the few issues of X-Men that Drake scripted were incredibly silly. To read Drake's Doom Patrol work it is clear that he was a very talented with dialogue and character development. To read his X-Men work however is one of the best examples of the Silver Age of super heroes I've ever read of an adult writer putting a really half-@$$ed effort into writing for hip, teenage or young adult characters with results that are most politely called goofy.

Maybe, it's because his heart wasn't in it, due to the whole DP/X-Men thing. :confused:

[Chief Jon]

D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite;10172551']Maybe, it's because his heart wasn't in it, due to the whole DP/X-Men thing. :confused:

That has definitely crossed my mind in the past. Or it could just be a text book example of an adult not really knowing how to accurately write teenagers speaking with the popular vernacular of the day.I figure one of the two.

[Free-Man]

To be fare, those issues were published in the 60's, so most dialogue from back then would seem goofy to those of us who didn't grow up during that era. However, to a kid back in the 60's, that dialogue might not come off so goofy. And for the record, I say all of this without having read the issues being discussed.

Dialogue tends to become dated very fast. Look at almost any comic in the 90's and see how many outdated terms like "Radical!!" are thrown around.

For what they were, the Doom Patrol issues were very good. But I think it is a bit of a shame that they never took off, and I can see why the creator would be jealous given how massively successful the X-Men ended up being. Not saying I neccesarily believe the X-Men were a ripoff, but I think that would royally suck to have my creation not sell well while a very similar one became an international sensation.

[Chief Jon]

Dialogue tends to become dated very fast. Look at almost any comic in the 90's and see how many outdated terms like "Radical!!" are thrown around.

For what they were, the Doom Patrol issues were very good. But I think it is a bit of a shame that they never took off, and I can see why the creator would be jealous given how massively successful the X-Men ended up being. Not saying I neccesarily believe the X-Men were a ripoff, but I think that would royally suck to have my creation not sell well while a very similar one became an international sensation.

I don't disagree, but the X-Men weren't really that much more of a sensation than the Doom Patrol during either series initial run. X-Men basically held on by a thread sales wise (the brief and not sustained boom during Neal Adams' run notwithstanding) and managed to exist as a reprint book up until Giant Size X-Men only just barely. I suspect a combination of nostalgia and personal regard for the characters and premise by editors (Stan Lee and Roy Thoms in particular) may have kept it alive in reprint form, while Doom Patrol fell to the wayside at DC.

Then of course the All-New, All-Different Giant Size X-Men #1 reared its head and from 1975 forward the X-Men and then X-Franchise became the biggest thing in comics. DC (I suspect their editorial department at the time recognized the similarities between the books' respective premises) launched an All-New, All-Different Doom Patrol shortly thereafter, but this title never achieved anything like the success of the X-Men until it found its cult following under the pen of a young Grant Morisson.