POLL: Who Cares More, Creators or Fans? [Archive]

View Full Version : POLL: Who Cares More, Creators or Fans?

oldschool

10-19-2009, 01:33 PM

Mets, you may choose to move this to a general forum but I am posting it here because: a) I spent the vast majority of my forums time here and look forward to reaction from all here and b) I think it is fair to say that Spidey has one of the more dedictated fan bases around today. So, with that in mind....

Simple question. Who do you think cares more about Spidey, the fans or the creators? This is a very general question and is not meant to limit the "creators" in question to any specific creative team or period. The current MLB playoffs and NFL season got me to thinking to recent conversations I have had with friends about how, IMO, sports fans care far more about every win and loss than most of the players. We had a nice long discussion about that (over many pints, but that's another matter....) It got me to thinking: do you guys think we "care" more than the creators or vice versa? Please explain why you vote a certain way......

ShaggyB

10-19-2009, 01:35 PM

im torn between both care the same and both are fickle.... i went with the same.... but the cynic in me says fickle was more correct.

oldschool

10-19-2009, 01:38 PM

I had to say "fans" care more; I think the past few years of Spidey have proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt. Even though the creators care about Spidey's long-term "health" as a character, that is usually drive by business interests and our loyalty stems only from genuine care for the character. I am curious to hear an argument countering this and I know someone here will come through.

Will.S

10-19-2009, 01:39 PM

I'm guessing equally.

A writer would have to have a great deal of passion for the character if they really wanted to write the book and put his or her best foot forward. A fan will have the same type of passion for it as a reader but at times it can be much more since some follow the character through thick and thin.

Karl Cook

10-19-2009, 01:40 PM

Interesting thread, oldschool.
I'm the guy that voted neither, they're both fickle because, well, someone had to say it.:smile:

ShaggyB

10-19-2009, 01:41 PM

Interesting thread, oldschool.
I'm the guy that voted neither, they're both fickle because, well, someone had to say it.:smile:

i came very close to clicking that....

Farmernudie

10-19-2009, 01:42 PM

I initially was going to go for "both care equally"...

But then went with "fans care more".

Only because while some creative staff are/where fans at one point, it is their "JOB" now. And no matter how much (a few) love their job(s), it is still just that.

steveg887

10-19-2009, 01:48 PM

I was going to say fans, but I just think we're more vocal, and there's more of us than there are of them sharing our thoughts.

Equal sounds about right.

Scott Taylor

10-19-2009, 02:13 PM

Fans, by a hundred miles. Thing is, lots of the creators are also fans.

oldschool

10-19-2009, 02:16 PM

Fans, by a hundred miles. Thing is, lots of the creators are also fans.

I think so too but stand by my earlier point that they are now motivated by a paycheck (not that there's anything wrong with that....) whereas the loyalty of a fan is much more pure, if that is the word for it.

Patrick Hultquist

10-19-2009, 02:48 PM

Mister Mets

10-19-2009, 03:10 PM

I'm tempted to say "creators."

Most are fans, whose professional reputation is at stake if they fuck up. A poor run on Spider-Man can be a blight on your resume decades later (see Dennis O'Neil.)

whiteshark

10-19-2009, 03:18 PM

I voted they care equally.
Sure the creators get paid to make comics (which is only fair,since making comics is a job as any other job) but i don`t think that there are creators that are only in the production of the comics to recieve a pay check.They care equally about the characters they are invested as fans reading comics books.

matthewaos

10-19-2009, 03:18 PM

It's interesting that "creators" have no vote, though "both" have equal as "fans"

Jake V

10-19-2009, 03:28 PM

I think so too but stand by my earlier point that they are now motivated by a paycheck (not that there's anything wrong with that....) whereas the loyalty of a fan is much more pure, if that is the word for it.
Bullshit. You have no idea what anyone elses motivation is.

oldschool

10-19-2009, 03:47 PM

Bullshit. You have no idea what anyone elses motivation is.

Really? Would you write or draw a 22-page comic book every month for free?

arp2008

10-19-2009, 03:55 PM

The fans so. We want consistently good quality stories and will start an uproar if their marred or tampered with (OMD). Creators, on the other hand, want money more than anything else. They'll do what they need to regardless of fans' feeling on teh subject to make they keep or fill their pockets with presidents. The answer is obvious - fans care more. By a long shot.

RDMacQ

10-19-2009, 04:26 PM

I'd say neither, both are fickle. Yes, there are those fans that do genuinely care about the character, and there are those creators who share those same feelings. However, there are those fans that have to have the character a specific way, dislike specific tracts of his mythos or just feel that nothing of value was added to the franchise after 1972. Just as there are those creators who don't feel that honoring the character is as important as telling "their" story, believe that they can "improve" things to make the character "better," or just don't respect the history as well as they should. Neither the creators or the fans legitimately care more about Spider-Man, it's just that - as Steve Wacker pointed out- the creators are the ones paid for their opinions.

Burning_Pumpkin

10-19-2009, 05:44 PM

arp2008

10-19-2009, 05:50 PM

BlackToe

10-19-2009, 05:55 PM

RDMacQ

10-19-2009, 06:06 PM

I'm gonna say the creators.

The most polarising and controversial story in Spidey history was all done to keep the guy safe for when we all finally stop caring.

Fans come and go, but the creators are the ones who really wanna make the Pete live forever.

Actually, I'd switch those around. Creators are the ones who come and go, and rarely will you find a series where a single creator stays on board for almost two decades. Unlike fans, who will follow a series or a franchise for a lifetime.

As for those creators that want to make the characters live forever, the problem stems from the fact that creators each have a different interpretation of what is best for the character. Some might not even care that much at all about the franchise- it's just a paycheck to them and they have set their sites elsewhere. And a lot of attempts to "fix" characters for the future are usually the first ones that get either ignored or retconned altogether. Usually it seems that the creators that have the most impact are the ones that aren't concerned with making a statement and just want to tell a good story.

BlackToe

10-19-2009, 06:11 PM

Actually, I'd switch those around. Creators are the ones who come and go, and rarely will you find a series where a single creator stays on board for almost two decades. Unlike fans, who will follow a series or a franchise for a lifetime.

As for those creators that want to make the characters live forever, the problem stems from the fact that creators each have a different interpretation of what is best for the character. Some might not even care that much at all about the franchise- it's just a paycheck to them and they have set their sites elsewhere. And a lot of attempts to "fix" characters for the future are usually the first ones that get either ignored or retconned altogether. Usually it seems that the creators that have the most impact are the ones that aren't concerned with making a statement and just want to tell a good story.

What are you trying to say here? Creators create the content, fans just read it. How exactly are fans caring more with just reading?

Scott Taylor

10-19-2009, 06:19 PM

Writer after writer after writer has come and gone, with only a temporary influence (and, in some cases, interest) on the goings on of Spider-Man. Fans are pretty much always around, even when the creators ruin Spidey's character they hang around until it gets better.

Kevin Nichols

10-19-2009, 06:22 PM

I think fans and creators almost certainly care equally. And I don't see the motivation for said care as being important. I'm sure not every fan has the same motivation for caring about a particular character. I think it is certainly fair to assume that creators have a variety of motivators as well. Just because someone is paid to do something does not negate the passion they have for their occupation. Let's face it, none of us could survive without money.

That being said, fans are definitely more vocal about their opinions, particularly in forums like this that were designed for fans to voice their opinions. But, part of what makes a good creator is giving the fans something to talk about. If creators didn't care, we would get the same stories month after month until we eventually stopped caring too.

Consider this: BND and OMD have stirred up some controversy. But whether you love the idea or hate it, you have to admit that the creators did their jobs magnificantly. They gave us something to discuss and to keep us interested (on both sides of the debate).

RDMacQ

10-19-2009, 06:24 PM

What are you trying to say here? Creators create the content, fans just read it. How exactly are fans caring more with just reading?

Well, they are sticking with a franchise for ten years, twenty years or even longer. Creators come and go, and may not even care all that much about the project they are on. Steve Gerber didn't really care all that much about the stories he was producing for the G.I. Joe cartoon and was just doing it for the money, but there are fans of G.I. Joe to which that cartoon sparked a lifetime obsession with the franchise and the mythos. A better career opportunity may come along and they decide to take it- just look at Robert Kirkman and his departure from Marvel. Or the creator may not know all that much about the franchise they are working on and are just hired for their name- Warren Ellis recently worked on G.I. Joe: Resolute, and he said that the most he ever knew about G.I. Joe was having drinks with Larry Hama.

Look at it this way- for the creators, working on something like Spider-Man tends to boil down to it being a job. For fans, it's a hobby. Sometimes a job is a means to an end, while a hobby is someone's passion. In that respect, a fan can edge out a creator in their concerns for a character, a franchise or a mythos. Fans will stick it out through thick or thin- but a creator has to do what is best for their career and that doesn't always mean sticking with a franchise.

BlackToe

10-19-2009, 06:36 PM

Well, they are sticking with a franchise for ten years, twenty years or even longer. Creators come and go, and may not even care all that much about the project they are on. Steve Gerber didn't really care all that much about the stories he was producing for the G.I. Joe cartoon and was just doing it for the money, but there are fans of G.I. Joe to which that cartoon sparked a lifetime obsession with the franchise and the mythos. A better career opportunity may come along and they decide to take it- just look at Robert Kirkman and his departure from Marvel. Or the creator may not know all that much about the franchise they are working on and are just hired for their name- Warren Ellis recently worked on G.I. Joe: Resolute, and he said that the most he ever knew about G.I. Joe was having drinks with Larry Hama.

Look at it this way- for the creators, working on something like Spider-Man tends to boil down to it being a job. For fans, it's a hobby. Sometimes a job is a means to an end, while a hobby is someone's passion. In that respect, a fan can edge out a creator in their concerns for a character, a franchise or a mythos. Fans will stick it out through thick or thin- but a creator has to do what is best for their career and that doesn't always mean sticking with a franchise.

You're talking about a minute amount of people that shrinks as time goes on. Creators have the responsibility to make sure said characters dont die with them.

Also I like how you allude that creators are just selfish greedy pricks...nice. Where do you think all that stuff that the ultra-fan knows comes from?

RDMacQ

10-19-2009, 06:58 PM

You're talking about a minute amount of people that shrinks as time goes on. Creators have the responsibility to make sure said characters dont die with them.

Also I like how you allude that creators are just selfish greedy pricks...nice. Where do you think all that stuff that the ultra-fan knows comes from?

I don't think that I'm talking about a minute amount of people. Just look at how many Star Trek fans there are. Or Transformers fans. And yes, even comic book fans. There are people on these very boards who have been with Spider-Man for DECADES! How many creators can attest to that?

And it's not about creators being selfish, greedy pricks. It's about creators doing what is best for their careers. And sometimes that means doing things that aren't beneficial for the books they are working on. Like signing an exclusive contract with one publisher over another, because it means guaranteed work. Or leaving a high profile assignment or a lucrative company for more creative freedom. Just look at the Image founders- these guys left very lucrative assignments at Marvel to start their own company, leaving very high profile books like X-Men and Spider-Man. Books they had creative control over, in some cases. But the "responsibility" to make sure these books didn't "die" didn't outweigh what they felt would be best for their careers. And as many of these creators found out, these books survived their absence quite well, as the books were doing fine LONG before they came on board, and they have been doing fine LONG after they left.

BlackToe

10-19-2009, 08:04 PM

I don't think that I'm talking about a minute amount of people. Just look at how many Star Trek fans there are. Or Transformers fans. And yes, even comic book fans. There are people on these very boards who have been with Spider-Man for DECADES! How many creators can attest to that?

Compared to the amount of people exposed to the product, yes they are a minute amount of people. Shrinking everyday, every year. For whatever reason they find to stop applying new continuity in their personal opinion on what continuity is. Long term active fans are a rarity.

And it's not about creators being selfish, greedy pricks. It's about creators doing what is best for their careers. And sometimes that means doing things that aren't beneficial for the books they are working on. Like signing an exclusive contract with one publisher over another, because it means guaranteed work. Or leaving a high profile assignment or a lucrative company for more creative freedom. Just look at the Image founders- these guys left very lucrative assignments at Marvel to start their own company, leaving very high profile books like X-Men and Spider-Man. Books they had creative control over, in some cases. But the "responsibility" to make sure these books didn't "die" didn't outweigh what they felt would be best for their careers. And as many of these creators found out, these books survived their absence quite well, as the books were doing fine LONG before they came on board, and they have been doing fine LONG after they left.

You talk like they dont care about what they write. As long it makes a buck for their career, right? Each comic character under the sun, cant have a assigned long-term creator. It doesnt work that way. Things WILL get stale. By either the creators perspective or the fans.

And I want to address this in particular:

Just look at the Image founders- these guys left very lucrative assignments at Marvel to start their own company, leaving very high profile books like X-Men and Spider-Man. Books they had creative control over, in some cases. But the "responsibility" to make sure these books didn't "die" didn't outweigh what they felt would be best for their careers. And as many of these creators found out, these books survived their absence quite well, as the books were doing fine LONG before they came on board, and they have been doing fine LONG after they left

They left because they didnt have creative control over the characters.

CyberHubbs

10-19-2009, 08:30 PM

I said both fans and creators care equally, though perhaps for different reasons. Fans want to be entertained by the mixture of art and storytelling that a team brings to a book. Creators are often long-time fans that are fulfilling their dreams by writing stories for a certain character they grew up reading, and as Mets pointed out it is in their best interest to provide a well-told (or at least competent) story so that they are offered future assignments. Later on in their careers, I think, after the nostalgia wears off, sometimes they do take big jobs to pay the bills, but the creator-owned stuff is where you see the real love blossom. While I may love kids (I don't), its nothing like the love I'd have (don't plan to) for one I made myself with the help of a lady (or the Black Market).

RDMacQ

10-19-2009, 08:37 PM

Compared to the amount of people exposed to the product, yes they are a minute amount of people. Shrinking everyday, every year. For whatever reason they find to stop applying new continuity in their personal opinion on what continuity is. Long term active fans are a rarity.

But compared to the number of creators on the books over the years, and the "diminish" fans still greatly outnumber the amount of creators on the books. There have been franchises that have been held aloft by the fans alone, long after original content had stopped being produced- Star Trek being the most obvious example of that trend.

You talk like they dont care about what they write. As long it makes a buck for their career, right? Each comic character under the sun, cant have a assigned long-term creator. It doesnt work that way. Things WILL get stale. By either the creators perspective or the fans.

I'm pretty sure a lot of character's care what they write. But there are also creators who, after they have left a book, couldn't care less what happens afterwards or if the changes they made have any impact. Didn't someone on the boards the other days say that J.M. Demattis didn't care that Harry Osborn was resurrected, and was actually surprised that it took so long to bring him back?

Writers do care. But I don't think that it is to the extent that you are implying. A creator has to pay the bills as well, and sometimes that means doing what's best for your career -like leaving one company for another and signing an exclusive contract.

And I want to address this in particular:

They left because they didnt have creative control over the characters.

Yes. Yes they did. They had a lot of creative control. A whole lot more than a lot of other creators. But what is "limiting" to one creator isn't exactly limiting to all.

Just take the example Tom Defalco gives in Image Comics: The Road To Independance, pg. 138-43. Tom tells the story of how Todd MacFarlane wanted to do a story where the Juggernaut gets his eye graphically punctured, and Tom wouldn't let him because they were still part of the comics code. Todd wanted to go over Tom's head and appeal to the code directly, but Tom shut Todd down saying that they WERE the code. As Tom puts it "just because a creator wants to put out an eyeball.. that is not on the same stature as an anti-drug story. So I told Todd 'I'm sorry you're disappointed, but this is not going to happen.' And at that time Todd told me 'You realize, of course, that this means that at some point I'm going to leave. ' And I said to him 'Yeah, I understand that, Todd.' Because here's something that I always understood... and I understood it because I'm a creative person, too. I knew that, at a certain point, once a creator achieves a certain amount of power, they;ll eventually leave. It is the natural evolution of the industry. They'll keep pushing and pushing and eventually they'll leave." (pg. 140)

And push it they did, as Tom then goes on to describe the meeting that happened right before the creators split to form Image, and they were making demands like asking for 75-90% of the profit of the comics they produced, or wanting the company to pay for their wives to come with them when they go on trips Or their girlfriends. And their entourage. Or stating that they get to decide who follows them when they leave a book. And that meeting went on like that from 7:00 pm to 9:30pm, the way Tom describes it, eventually the meeting having to be called off because they were going in circles.(pg. 141-142)

The kicker? The REAL dick move of that encounter? By the time of that meeting, the creators had already decided to splinter off and form Image, as they gave the announcement THE VERY NEXT DAY. The creators just had the meeting so they could say they went to Marvel. Again, as Tom describes it "Bottom line, the Image guys had already made their deal before they approached Marvel, and I was very annoyed by that. I felt it was a natural evolution for them to decide that they wanted to go out and form their own company, but I was annoyed that they never really gave Marvel a chance to match the deal they had with Malibu." (pg. 142)

These creators seemed pretty well taken care of, but they decided to do what was best for their careers. And it really didn't sound like they had the franchises' that they worked on best interests at heart. Just looking to increase their own power base and profit margins.

40footwolf

10-19-2009, 08:57 PM

The fans.

Way, way, way too much.

Farmernudie

10-20-2009, 03:16 AM

The question i ask is: how can a creator who works on a small run of a comic (and moves onto his next "job") care for the character more than a fan who has collected it his whole life?

Mister Mets

10-20-2009, 04:23 AM

The question i ask is: how can a creator who works on a small run of a comic (and moves onto his next "job") care for the character more than a fan who has collected it his whole life?
But not all fans follow the book for their whole life.

And not all creators work on small runs.

That does represent one problem with the question. Fans aren't all alike, and creators aren't all alike.

Patrick Hultquist

10-20-2009, 07:24 AM

But not all fans follow the book for their whole life.

And not all creators work on small runs.

That does represent one problem with the question. Fans aren't all alike, and creators aren't all alike.

Agreed. I think the better question would be - who has more invested in the character?

oldschool

10-20-2009, 07:26 AM

Agreed. I think the better question would be - who has more invested in the character?

If that is indeed the question, my answer of the fans has an exclamation point after it. I acknowledge that many creators were/are/always will be fans of the character, but I just don't think they are as emotionally evolved, on the whole, as fans generally are.

David Walton

10-20-2009, 08:19 AM

Agreed. I think the better question would be - who has more invested in the character?

I'd say fans are more passionately invested in the direction the character takes. You look at creators who've worked on Spider-Man in the past and very few of them get worked up about Spider-Man's marital status or the status quo in general.

It's almost like the way the presidency tends to actually mellow out passionate political rivals. The reason why I think George Bush, Bill Clinton and George W. Bush can all hang out is because they each have a deeper appreciation for the kinds of decisions you make as president. Compare the rhetoric of a former president with a sitting one and you'll usually see a dramatic difference.

In ten or fifteen years, the writers who are on ASM right now will be less invested in the character. They'll have had their say and they probably won't care if the marriage comes back or not. They tend to look at these things from a professional standpoint--"I got to tell the stories I wanted to tell, why shouldn't Creator X?"

I've always been fascinated by the almost universal response from creators who've moved on to other projects when they're asked about the characters they left. They usually don't follow the characters very reguarly if at all.

ShaggyB

10-20-2009, 08:22 AM

Agreed. I think the better question would be - who has more invested in the character?

id say the creator at the time of their own run on the book.

but as said before some creators are fans.... so....

CyberHubbs

10-20-2009, 08:58 AM

I've always been fascinated by the almost universal response from creators who've moved on to other projects when they're asked about the characters they left. They usually don't follow the characters very reguarly if at all.

Yeah. I agree with this. I think a lot of them kind of become jaded to the big projects because they learn they don't have as much control as they'd think during their run, and the creator-owned stuff becomes their real cherished work because it is theirs, rather than a character being loaned out with sometimes very specific rules attached.

David Walton

10-20-2009, 09:19 AM

Yeah. I agree with this. I think a lot of them kind of become jaded to the big projects because they learn they don't have as much control as they'd think during their run,

I wouldn't say jaded. Most of the creators I've read interviews with seem very nonchalant about creative control issues with corprorate properties. They come to understand it's all part of the game. And even if they do move past wanting to write superheroes, they all seem to appreciate the opportunity.

and the creator-owned stuff becomes their real cherished work because it is theirs, rather than a character being loaned out with sometimes very specific rules attached.

I think it goes in phases. Like most fans, the writers start out thinking that the greatest thing in the world would be to write their childhood heroes. Once they've done that, though, they tend to want to use what they've learned and create their own characters. But yeah, there seems to be a consensus that creator-owned work is the most rewarding.

whiteshark

10-20-2009, 12:35 PM

I think it goes in phases. Like most fans, the writers start out thinking that the greatest thing in the world would be to write their childhood heroes. Once they've done that, though, they tend to want to use what they've learned and create their own characters. But yeah, there seems to be a consensus that creator-owned work is the most rewarding.

It surelly looks as that the creator owned titles have a extra enthusiasm reflected in the comic book per say.
Stan Lee work in ASM,or Erik Larsen work in Savage Dragon looks to be examples as when it surelly looks like the creators have some extra enthusiasm doing it.

But one have to wonder,if after a creator finished working in a title if the same creator keep on following the comic book in which they worked with.

Farmernudie

10-20-2009, 01:18 PM

I would have to say, in general, that a fan sticks with a book title, on average, much longer than a writer or artist.

Aziz Abbasi

10-20-2009, 01:25 PM

I chose "Both Care as Much"
Each side thinks their opinion are better suited for the character, they want him to be better and more enjoyable