The DC Trinity - Yay or Nay?

[ryerye17]

DC Big Three. DC Trinity. Clark, Bruce and Diana

As an offshoot of the discussion on "Justice League Big Seven Yay or Nay" thread, it would be fun to see one on the concept of the DC Trinity - Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman.

I for one am a big fan of the Trinity as a whole. I think it's nice that at the superhero community these three represent the cream of the crop and the best of the best.

Even superheroes always discuss things like "What would Clark or Bruce or Diana do?"

No one asks "What would Arthur do?" Except perhaps Tempest.

I believe that the Trinity should be the cornerstone of the DCU.

Let's also list as many Trinity stories we can think of:

@ Trinity (Weekly series)
@ Trinity (3 issue-miniseries)
@ Infinite Crisis
@ 52 (well it dealt with their absence so that counts)
@ Justice League Unlimited (The TV Show. Opening credits shows the Trinity in prominent places. Plus the final scene has the Trinity running together.)

Can anyone point out the "first" official acknowledgment that there is a "Big Trinity"? The earliest I can find is the Justice League Unlimited show.

[FailureByDesign]

I dont understand Wonder Womans place in the Trinity, she never has any stories the likes of Batman or Superman..sometimes it feels like shes is there for equal rights.

[Alex Smith]

I dont understand Wonder Womans place in the Trinity, she never has any stories the likes of Batman or Superman..sometimes it feels like shes is there for equal rights.

She's apart of the trinity only within the DCU. As far as things out here go, Hal Jordan is definitely bigger than her. Well, he is for now at least.

Within the DCU though she's definitely one of the go to heroes and is definitely looked up to by others.

[ryerye17]

I kind of disagree.

Wonder Woman Diana has been in continuous publication since the 40's. Same character.

There have been countless Green Lanterns.

Starting with Alan Scott.

And then there's the Justice League TV Show that has John Stewart
Plus the 90's had Kyle.

Wondy had her own TV Show in the 70's

BASICALLY

ask anyone (even non-comic book fans):

Who is Wonder Woman? They'll all say Diana

Who is Green Lantern? Isn't he the black guy? Isn't he the gay-friendly guy? Isn't he the old magical guy?

There is no way Hal Jordan is more iconic than Wonder Woman.

[Karl O'Neill]

I don't like wonder woman's role in it.

I think GL and FLASH have better stories to back up their characters and histories.

[Alex Smith]

Actually I think most people would say Lynda Carter. I just asked my brother what Wonder Woman's name is, and he had no idea. Granted that's only one person, but the point still stands.

It's true that to the random person, they're more likely to know the name Wonder Woman than Green Lantern, but Hal has kind of been the center of the DCU for a while now and Wonder Woman is completely on the fringe.

So sure, Wonder Woman is a bigger icon, but she isn't properly used, and Hal has become one of the cornerstones of the DCU in the past few years. So I guess I should clarify some.

Comic reading populace: Hal
DCU heroes: Diana
Random folks on street: Wonder Woman

[FailureByDesign]

I agree Wonder woman is iconic and should be a big part of the DC, my point was that DC dont use her well enough to reach her full potential recently.Whereas Green lantern may not seen as being as iconic, the character is used more effectively and for me personally more crucial to the DCU than W.W

[Karl O'Neill]

I agree that wonder woman is more recognisable to the average joe.

But The GL and Flash franchises are being molded into great mythologies and cornerstones of the dcu.

[FailureByDesign]

I agree that wonder woman is more recognisable to the average joe.

But The GL and Flash franchises are being molded into great mythologies and cornerstones of the dcu.

With such a long and successful run from Johns, the overwhelming success of Blackest night and a movie in the pipe line. Green Lantern is huge compared to W.W at the moment and its all down to positive exposure. Wonder woman may have earned her place in the trinity through years of being an iconic/ central figure in the DCU, but now Green Lantern is helping to make all that a forgotten memory.

[ryerye17]

well...she does have a forum in CBR :biggrin:

WHICH by the way is more active than the Superman one

[Alex Smith]

well...she does have a forum in CBR :biggrin:

WHICH by the way is more active than the Superman one

Well it is brand new and is morderated and frequently visited by the writer of the book. That definitely keeps activity up.

[BallsMonkey]

I'm all for them. Three of the most recognizable heroes in the world, the three most iconic heroes in the world, the three biggest heroes in their universe.

I think it's a perfect combination.

[Seven_Ride]

I agree that wonder woman is more recognisable to the average joe.

But The GL and Flash franchises are being molded into great mythologies and cornerstones of the dcu.
Correct on both counts. In many respects, Flash and Green Lantern are the foundations of the DCU, and have been for 50 years. Much of DC's mythology is an outgrowth of their Silver Age stories:

The Justice League, all the different Earths, the Crises, etc. Even their best friends became major DCU characters due to their association: Elongated Man, Green Arrow, Black Canary, etc.

But beyond comics, Wonder Woman is still THE female superhero, the world over.

[Munkiman]

Nay. Not a Wonder Woman fan myself. But I will say that I do prefer WW in the JL or Trinity rather than by herself, so I'm not that opposed to the idea.

[bongoes]

I think WW should be part of the Trinity, but the fact that she's the only one people disagree with as being part of the Trinity says a lot.

Who is Wonder Woman? They'll all say Diana

Who is Green Lantern? Isn't he the black guy? Isn't he the gay-friendly guy? Isn't he the old magical guy?

There is no way Hal Jordan is more iconic than Wonder Woman.

I don't know any non-comic readers who know WW's name is Diana. As for Green Lantern I highly doubt anyone thinks of GL as the gay-friendly guy or the old magical guy. Black guy sure. But Kyle (who I really don't think that is his defining characteristic) and Alan don't have enough exposure. Hal is getting much more exposure now (or will be soon).

[Karl O'Neill]

well...she does have a forum in CBR :biggrin:

WHICH by the way is more active than the Superman one

Because of all the arguing in the final crisis sub-forum they said they wouldn't do an event forum again for a while.

So Blackest Night and Green lantern missed out. Which discusts me greatly.

I have rallying for a GL sub forum for ages now.

No offense to Gail and the WW forum as I post there sometimes But it's a travesty that WW got her own sub forum here before GL or FLASH.

[galactica]

It seems to me that the concept of the Trinity is used for the benefit of Wonder Woman alone. When do you ever hear someone saying Superman/Batman should be this or get that because he is a member of the Trinity? It seems like Superman and Batman provide maybe 90% of the status behind the Trinity.

Having said all that, historically she is the character closest to rounding out the Trinity, though I don't think there needs to be a Trinity. The gap between Superman/Batman and Wonder Woman is too large.

[Jaded Devil]

I understand their importance from a historical perspective, but the Trinity are really just crutches for DC on a whole. There are so many more interesting characters that could be explored in any number of ways but they get relegated to limbo or serve as cannon fodder so that yet ANOTHER Batbook or Superbook can come out or another Bat-character or Super-character can be intoduced. I mean, honestly, was there really that much of a demand for an Azrael book? Off the top of my head, I can think of twenty characters who would be better served by their own book than Azrael. And was Superman/Batman ever relevant, beyond the first storyline?

As for Wonder Woman, it's more guilt by association than anything else. She only has her one book, but she's always foisted up and thrown in with Supes and Bats because a visit from "The Trinity" is akin to a holy event in a book. It's just ridiculous...and I say this as a Batman fan. Superman and Wonder Woman I can do without.

[Forth World]

Can anyone point out the "first" official acknowledgment that there is a "Big Trinity"? The earliest I can find is the Justice League Unlimited show.

In the '50's, Supes, Bats and WW were the only solo superhero books that DC put out. Rest of the books were anthologies, true crime, horror, teen romance, kid's cartoons, Westerns, even Bob Hope.

Take a look at the covers from Aug 1955 f'rexample. http://www.dcindexes.com/timemachine/releasedate.php?year=1955&month=8

Also, Flash and GL were acquisitions from All-American Comics. The Trinity are the only big star DC heroes who are native from the Golden Age.

[Will.S]

I don't mind the Trinity but I think DC focuses too much on them and makes them a bigger deal than they really are.

For example, I didn't think they needed a weekly series dedicated to them since they were already heading the JLA and had so many other stories with them in it so it seemed a little redundant in some ways. But I respect Kurt Busiek for crafting his own story around them.

[superchick]

Trinity, big seven, founders whatever its just editorial favouritism. They serve no storytelling function and imbues characters with false importance.

[The Chief5425]

Bit of a thread drift...."Trinity" itself, the 52 week series: I avoided it because of the awful, hideous, revolting taste left in my mouth by "Countdown" (or, as it came to be known later, "Countdown to Final Crisis"....you know a series is in trouble when it has to be renamed halfway through just to let the readers know "hey, we really are going somewhere with this, honest!").

Anyway....I didn't read it and have purposefully tried to avoid any spoilers about it, so is it worth picking up in TPB form?

[ryerye17]

Guys, can we bring up the issue of dismissability?

Superman will always be Clark Kent.

Steel, Eradicator, Henshaw, Connor, Mon-El will NEVER be THE Superman and we know it.

Batman will always be Bruce Wayne.

Azrael, Dick Grayons, Jason Todd, Tim Drake will NEVER be THE Batman and we know it.

Wonder Woman will always be Diana.

Hippolyta, Artemis, Donna Troy will NEVER be THE Wonder Woman and we know it.

Which brings us to...

Hal Jordan has been replaced by Kyle Rayner for a good ten years. His place in the Justice League cartoon has been taken by John Stewart. Guy Gardner took his place in the Justice League International AND Justice League Live Action TV Movie. Not to mention his golden age incarnation.

Barry Allen has been replaced by Wally West for a good twenty years. Wally West was the one in the Justice League cartoon, took his place in the JLA and International. Not to mention his golden age incarnation.

IN OTHER WORDS

There is ONE Superman
There is ONE Batman
There is ONE Wonder Woman

There are FIVE Green Lanterns
There are THREE Flashes

[Alex Smith]

Diana could easily be replaced as Wonder Woman to the fans. She's just "Wonder Woman" no one really knows anything beyond that.

Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne are household names, Diana Prince (or Diana of Themyscira, whatever you want to call her) is not a household name.

If she was replaced no one would notice aside from the comic reading community obviously.

People always call her "the" female hero, but I just don't see it. It's all well and good that she was created to off set Superman, but there are far more interesting female characters now-a-days.

Edit: And there is an entire army of Green Lanterns. And as I said before, I said that today Hal Jordan is a bigger presence than Wonder Woman. Obviously he wasn't when Kyle was the main GL.

[ryerye17]

Diana could easily be replaced as Wonder Woman to the fans. She's just "Wonder Woman" no one really knows anything beyond that.

Of course not. To draw a parallelism, can you say that "He's just Batman." We don't care who's under the cowl.

Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne are household names, Diana Prince (or Diana of Themyscira, whatever you want to call her) is not a household name.

If she was replaced no one would notice aside from the comic reading community obviously.

Which brings me to question - HAS she been replaced?

Barring small story arcs when Hippolyta, Artemis and Donna Troy took over the mantle - comparable to Reign of the Supermen/Batman Reborn arcs.

Jordan and Allen have been replaced for a long time.

And, surprise, surprise.

No one was sad to see them go. Kyle and Wally took over.

People always call her "the" female hero, but I just don't see it. It's all well and good that she was created to off set Superman, but there are far more interesting female characters now-a-days.

You know, she has an IDENTITY outside her gender.

[Alex Smith]

Of course not. To draw a parallelism, can you say that "He's just Batman." We don't care who's under the cowl.



Which brings me to question - HAS she been replaced?

Barring small story arcs when Hippolyta, Artemis and Donna Troy took over the mantle - comparable to Reign of the Supermen/Batman Reborn arcs.

Jordan and Allen have been replaced for a long time.

And, surprise, surprise.

No one was sad to see them go. Kyle and Wally took over.



You know, she has an IDENTITY outside her gender.

I'm not really sure what you're even trying to argue. I said Hal is more of a major player NOW than Diana is. Obviously he wasn't when he was gone.

And people DO care who is under the cowl. Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent are known. Same as Peter Parker. Diana Prince simply isn't. I'd be willing to make a large wager that if you went out and asked non-comic fans who Superman was, most would know the name Clark Kent, and the same for Batman and Bruce Wayne. I really doubt hte same is true for Wonder Woman and Diana Prince. Obviously I haven't done a study, but does anyone really think otherwise?

She could easily be replaced.

And I'm aware she has an identiy beyond her gender. I wasn't saying she didn't. I'm saying she's not "THE" female hero she's often portayed as. And frankly I find her identity to be quite boring. To be fair I haven't read Rucka's Wonder Woman, which is supposedly spectacular, but I have not enjoyed any of what I have read. The character's history is dull.

In today's DC, Hal Jordan is a much bigger player than Wonder Woman, and it's hard to argue otherwise. I'm not saying classically he is, but today he definitely is.

[Shokoti]

And I'm aware she has an identiy beyond her gender. I wasn't saying she didn't. I'm saying she's not "THE" female hero she's often portayed as. And frankly I find her identity to be quite boring. To be fair I haven't read Rucka's Wonder Woman, which is supposedly spectacular, but I have not enjoyed any of what I have read. The character's history is dull.
. I'm not saying classically he is, but today he definitely is.

What's so dull and boring about Wonder Woman's character and history?

[DarkKnghtJared]

Definitely yay--all three are pretty cool, interesting characters. :biggrin:

Can anyone point out the "first" official acknowledgment that there is a "Big Trinity"? The earliest I can find is the Justice League Unlimited show.

I'm pretty sure they started down that role after Crisis, actually.

[ryerye17]

Definitely yay--all three are pretty cool, interesting characters. :biggrin:



I'm pretty sure they started down that role after Crisis, actually.

I doubt it. Wonder Woman was retconned into a rookie post-COIE

[bongoes]

Jordan and Allen have been replaced for a long time.

And, surprise, surprise.

No one was sad to see them go. Kyle and Wally took over.

There were a lot of people sad to see them go. People got used to the new ones.(Besides some Hal fans)

[Seven_Ride]

Edit: And there is an entire army of Green Lanterns. And as I said before, I said that today Hal Jordan is a bigger presence than Wonder Woman. Obviously he wasn't when Kyle was the main GL.I basically agree, but:

Even during the time Kyle was GL, how many DC events showcased Hal as a major DCU player? Zero Hour, Final Night, Day of Judgement, etc. You can almost count Emerald Knights. And now Rebirth, Sinestro Corps, Blackest Night.

Now list how many big events DC has built around WW and her mythos, in all that time.

[Name Already Taken]

I give thee yay for now. DC radiates from its Trinity, and outwards. It always stems from the big 3, storywise at the base.
That is how it always been, and will continue until your kids read DC in the future.

[Forth World]

Now list how many big events DC has built around WW and her mythos, in all that time.

DC has built big events around the New Gods.

[superchick]

I give thee yay for now. DC radiates from its Trinity, and outwards. It always stems from the big 3, storywise at the base.
That is how it always been, and will continue until your kids read DC in the future.

And Blackest Night stems from?
The trinity these days are forced to the centre by editorial and with Wonder Woman especially they can't justify it.Wonder Woman isn't even their number one selling female lead anymore.

[Hullababy]

The trinity is overrated.

And GL should get his forum no offense to Wonder Woman or her fans.

[Jorriss]

semi-nay. I want t a new trinity, perhaps, Mon-el, Donna and Dick, or Clark, Donna and Dick. And I don't want them to be inferior to their mentors.