If Tom Wrote For DC... [Archive] - Comic Book Resources Forums

TomStillwell

10-14-2009, 01:45 PM

Have you ever gotten to pitch something to them?

Jim MacQuarrie and I were attempting an Inferior Five pitch but everything fell through when the editor left DC.

I don't have any substantial relationships in DC editoral or ins with them. Lacking that, my only recourse is to keep making comics and hope someone takes notice.

It's not easy. My voice in comics is very small and getting coverage from any of the major comic news outlets is almost impossible as a self publisher.

Weetomuncher

10-14-2009, 01:47 PM

I'm sure that Tom Stillwell could do something for DC as he seems very commited to his work.

What was the name of the book that he writes?

He never mentions it on YABS...:wink:

Arrogantcur

10-14-2009, 01:50 PM

Dan DiDio, you should hire Tom to write for DC so that he can be happy.

Do you want his unhappiness on your conscience?

DO YOU???!!!!?!?!?!!!!???

Jae Namkyoung

10-14-2009, 01:54 PM

I'd totally like Tom to write Teen Titans. =]

PatrickG

10-14-2009, 02:16 PM

Jim MacQuarrie and I were attempting an Inferior Five pitch but everything fell through when the editor left DC.

I don't have any substantial relationships in DC editoral or ins with them. Lacking that, my only recourse is to keep making comics and hope someone takes notice.

It's not easy. My voice in comics is very small and getting coverage from any of the major comic news outlets is almost impossible as a self publisher.

Well, flipside is that I used to (maybe still do?) have the contacts but not the body of work or the credentials. Had an editor once beg me for stick figures and word balloons because he didn't have time for my scripts.

Had a slew of pitches invalidated by the deathfest over the last couple of years and Didio playfully thanked me for the list of characters to kill off. Also hasn't helped that all my ins went to Marvel and I lost touch with 'em. Well, aside from a couple of editors and I only had those editors' ears because a writer or artist was breathing down their neck for me to get work.

But I'd be thrilled to be working at DC with ya, Tom.

FeminineMystique

10-14-2009, 02:21 PM

TomStillwell

10-14-2009, 02:26 PM

Best of luck darling.

And I guess it must be hard, being a self publisher. I'm working on a comic of my own right now and I'm still having a hard time finding an artist for it. The Big Two make this stuff look easy

Have you tried over at Digital Webbing? Artists of all shapes and sizes abound over there.

Jae Namkyoung

10-14-2009, 03:04 PM

Have you tried over at Digital Webbing? Artists of all shapes and sizes abound over there.

Send me link, Tom? I need artists for my two scripts, I can't pay them at the moment, but I'd be more than happy if someone would like to assist me.

TomStillwell

10-14-2009, 03:12 PM

Send me link, Tom? I need artists for my two scripts, I can't pay them at the moment, but I'd be more than happy if someone would like to assist me.

http://www.digitalwebbing.com/forums/

Jae Namkyoung

10-14-2009, 03:13 PM

http://www.digitalwebbing.com/forums/

Ta! Thank you, sir!

FeminineMystique

10-14-2009, 03:15 PM

Thanks for the advice Tom, you're a prince! :) And good luck finding an artist Jae-Jae, your script was excellent! I'd love to see it in comic format

Jae Namkyoung

10-14-2009, 03:16 PM

Thanks for the advice Tom, you're a prince! :) And good luck finding an artist Jae-Jae, your script was excellent! I'd love to see it in comic format

I should send you the other, think the only one you read as Haesik, the other is Semyaza, he's a rather odd fellow that one.

You know, Tom. I'd actually like you to write Red Robin, Teen Titans, and um, that's all I can think of I'll give you more would-be work, when I think of it. Actually if you could work on Hawkman too, that'd be awesome. Perry Holley's collection makes me wanna buy more Hawkman stuff.

JamesRitcheyIII

10-14-2009, 05:33 PM

It's not easy. My voice in comics is very small and getting coverage from any of the major comic news outlets is almost impossible as a self publisher.

Preposterous!

Nope. Can't relate at all. Never happened to me. No emails met with no response from said Comics News Outlets. No screaming into my pillow, here. No apoplectic tirades to my 64 'fans'.

Signed, Facetiousman.

TomStillwell

10-14-2009, 06:41 PM

KevinTBrown

10-14-2009, 06:46 PM

I'm seriously shocked to know that not even CBR would do a small article about it. Newsarama has been and always will be a "Marvel whore". REGARDLESS of their coverage of other publishers.

TomStillwell

10-14-2009, 06:59 PM

Gang, here's some of the stuff from the failed Inferior 5 pitch. Someone might as well see it.

Inferior Five Pitch Notes

Here's a summary of what we came up with...

First, it's free-standing, In its own world, not part of regular DC continuity. That way we can do satire if we feel like it, and don't have to worry about messing up anything.

The Inferior Five: Striking from Their Parent's Shadows.

The Freedom Brigade - Mister Might! Mermaid! The Patriot! Lady Liberty! Captain Swift! Bowman ! They are Earth's mightiest defenders, protecting all from evil would-be despots and alien menaces. They are not, however, the world's greatest parents.

Imagine if your parents were quite literally the most important people in the world. Your entire childhood is spent around people who practically worship them as you're shuttled from school to school, never getting a chance to really fit in anywhere. The only people who could possibly understand you are four others and they're really, really annoying.

Inferior Five is the tale of five reluctant pre-teen heroes, forced to hang out whether they want to or not. Also? They save the world. They don't really notice that though, because they have issues.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a309/Zapow21/Just%20Stuff/characters_1_hires.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a309/Zapow21/Just%20Stuff/characters_2_hires.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a309/Zapow21/Just%20Stuff/characters_3_hires.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a309/Zapow21/Just%20Stuff/characters_4_hires.jpg

TomStillwell

10-14-2009, 06:59 PM

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a309/Zapow21/Just%20Stuff/whitefeather-edit_hires.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a309/Zapow21/Just%20Stuff/Page2001.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a309/Zapow21/Just%20Stuff/HighRezPG2.jpg

KevinTBrown

10-14-2009, 07:06 PM

Dammit.

I want to buy that right now.

PatrickG

10-14-2009, 07:18 PM

Preposterous!

Nope. Can't relate at all. Never happened to me. No emails met with no response from said Comics News Outlets. No screaming into my pillow, here. No apoplectic tirades to my 64 'fans'.

Signed, Facetiousman.

You want just cause to kill me? I've turned down interviews with Newsarama and Sequential Tart contributors because I had nothing to plug. <:-) (Had an overzealous friend jump the gun.)

JamesRitcheyIII

10-14-2009, 08:13 PM

You want just cause to kill me? I've turned down interviews with Newsarama and Sequential Tart contributors because I had nothing to plug. <:-) (Had an overzealous friend jump the gun.)

Yes--I do want to kill you. :biggrin:

But first--do you want to put something 'sample-y' together for DC? I need structure, fer a minute. Of the three people who've gone out of their way/bothered to comment about my writing on GL2, two felt compelled to tell me how much all o' them words sucked. One man's deliberate metatext is another's confusing mess, I guess.

Sorry about not responding a while back--you caught me in the middle of an existential crisis...or a nervous breakdown--still puzzling that one out...

heystacy

10-14-2009, 08:18 PM

Forgive me Tom.

I read the title and thought "What if Tom Tresser wrote for DC" :redface: :wink:

He might be a little miffed his relationship with Wondy didn't work out.

Typo Lad

10-15-2009, 07:35 AM

TomStillwell

10-15-2009, 08:34 AM

I love that your I5 pitch with Jim and the one I did with him are very much the same thing. Love it Has Jim showed you where my version eventually led? PM me if not, and I'll send you it. I think you'll like it.

I had no idea there was art though. Insanely cool.

Jim mentioned that you guys had worked on something in the past but that it really never went anywhere. So we went forward with the concept of the I5 as pre-teens. My role was scripting, finding the illustrators and putting together the actual pitch for DC.

I understood at the time that we had your blessing. Is that not the case?

TomStillwell

10-15-2009, 08:39 AM

Typo Lad

10-15-2009, 08:47 AM

Jim mentioned that you guys had worked on something in the past but that it really never went anywhere. So we went forward with the concept of the I5 as pre-teens. My role was scripting, finding the illustrators and putting together the actual pitch for DC.

I understood at the time that we had your blessing. Is that not the case?

Of course! I wasn't being sarcastic! I honestly think it's cool that our minds eventually went to similar places.

We started doing an I5 "Crisis" thing, and then at some point, it became a Johnny DC idea, with the I5 being the kids of the big heroes and being picked on by the sidekicks of the big heroes. I think in both cases, the main slant was Jim's idea, and my job was to fill in the blanks. I thought the kid angle was his... could it be that he mentioned it, but you thought it up? If so, I want to get your blessing for the idea I spun off from it.

I love working with Jim. Everyone should get to.

TomStillwell

10-15-2009, 09:29 AM

Of course! I wasn't being sarcastic! I honestly think it's cool that our minds eventually went to similar places.

We started doing an I5 "Crisis" thing, and then at some point, it became a Johnny DC idea, with the I5 being the kids of the big heroes and being picked on by the sidekicks of the big heroes. I think in both cases, the main slant was Jim's idea, and my job was to fill in the blanks. I thought the kid angle was his... could it be that he mentioned it, but you thought it up? If so, I want to get your blessing for the idea I spun off from it.

I love working with Jim. Everyone should get to.

I think Jim mentioned the kid idea to me. We were working on another pitch for something else at the time...our homage to Captain Marvel, Sir Stalwart, a young boy that becomes a superhero with powers from Arthurian legend.

TomStillwell

10-15-2009, 09:33 AM

You know, Tom. I'd actually like you to write Red Robin, Teen Titans, and um, that's all I can think of I'll give you more would-be work, when I think of it. Actually if you could work on Hawkman too, that'd be awesome. Perry Holley's collection makes me wanna buy more Hawkman stuff.

I like Robin. I haven't really given him much thought as a character on his own. I do find him pretty interesting.

I would love the opportunity to work on Teen Titans and a lot of my readers would like to see me on the book. I have a pitch ready to go if it is ever needed. The concept is something that hasn't been done before and it makes a lot of sense within the framework of the DCU.

I love Hawkman. Like, Robin, I haven't thought much about writing him. There's a lot of stories you can do with his background and personality.

Red Jack

10-15-2009, 10:02 AM

It is seriously messed up that sites like Newsarama and CBR will not cover anything that is self published.

My trade had a story by Gail in it and she did the foreword as well, art by Mike Norton, Tim Seeley and Colleen Doran. I pointed this out to someone at Newsarama and they just blew me off with a "but it's self published."

As a result, no one knows the trade exists and sales have been horrible. I've lost my shirt on it.

It is very frustrating. I'm doing everything I can to put out quality comics but it doesn't seem to matter since I publish them myself.

I hate to say it this way but that is FUCKING BULLSHIT.

The HONOR BRIGADE is one of the best-produced trades I've ever seen. Even if the "self-published" label was a legit dealbreaker (it's not) this partiular trade STOPPED being a DIY project the instant Gail, Colleen, James, Mike, Tim, Mike and, yes, myself, signed on to do art and stories.

Even if it hadn't been before (and it had, IMO) at that point SPINNER RACK went from being "self-publisher" to "small press." I worked with a "legit" publisher three years ago on my book THE RED LINE. I had to fight to get contractors paid (not my job). I had to do all the publicity myself (not my job). I had to wrangle the unhappy contractors when checks didn't clear (not my job). I had to find the printer and make the deal to get the SDCC copies made because the legit publisher couldn't get it together to actually do his job. Result: the book never came out and never will.

Tom is the OPPOSITE of that.

The only determiner here should be quality, both of physical product and of story.

There are "legit" TPBs that could take a lesson from HONOR BRIGADE. I'm proud to have participated. Tom is a great writer and, should he ever get the nod, would breathe some much-needed light and life into the currently ponderous and dark version of the TITANS that continues to spiral down.

Probably my support is more of a black eye than a help in this region of the comic book universe but Tom's got it and he always will.

He's the goods. Anybody too stupid to recognize that deserves either sympathy or a swift kick,.

MacQuarrie

10-15-2009, 10:10 AM

I hate to say it this way but that is FUCKING BULLSHIT.

The HONOR BRIGADE is one of the best-produced trades I've ever seen. Even if the "self-published" label was a legit dealbreaker (it's not) this partiular trade STOPPED being a DIY project the instant Gail, Colleen, James, Mike, Tim, Mike and, yes, myself, signed on to do art and stories.

Even if it hadn't been before (and it had, IMO) at that point SPINNER RACK went from being "self-publisher" to "small press." I worked with a "legit" publisher three years ago on my book THE RED LINE. I had to fight to get contractors paid (not my job). I had to do all the publicity myself (not my job). I had to wrangle the unhappy contractors when checks didn't clear (not my job). I had to find the printer and make the deal to get the SDCC copies made because the legit publisher couldn't get it together to actually do his job. Result: the book never came out and never will.

Tom is the OPPOSITE of that.

The only determiner here should be quality, both of physical product and of story.

There are "legit" TPBs that could take a lesson from HONOR BRIGADE. I'm proud to have participated. Tom is a great writer and would breathe some much needed light and life into the currently ponderous and dark version of the TITANS that continues to spiral down.

Probably my support is more of a black eye than a help in this region of the comic book universe but Tom's got it and he always will.

He's the goods. Anybody too stupid to recognize that deserves either sympathy or a swift kick,.
Signs of the Apocalypse:

I agree with Red Jack 100%.

MacQuarrie

10-15-2009, 10:17 AM

I think Jim mentioned the kid idea to me. We were working on another pitch for something else at the time...our homage to Captain Marvel, Sir Stalwart, a young boy that becomes a superhero with powers from Arthurian legend.
Which I think I'm ready to take another stab at.

Clarification on Inferior Five:
I came up with the idea of making them kids. Tossed it to Typo, we went back-and-forth with it, and the overwhelming majority of what we ended up with, that I sent you, was his work with my occasional tweaks. It's totally a collaborative effort, and I value both your contributions more than my own.

The spin-off project Typo mentioned is 98% his.

Typo Lad

10-15-2009, 10:21 AM

Which I think I'm ready to take another stab at.

Oh please, please please! Comics need more "Magic Grownup Wish" people.

Clarification on Inferior Five:
I came up with the idea of making them kids. Tossed it to Typo, we went back-and-forth with it, and the overwhelming majority of what we ended up with, that I sent you, was his work with my occasional tweaks.

That's not at all how I recall it. I seem to remember most of the actual characterization being your idea; I just figured out why they were that way.

It's totally a collaborative effort, and I value both your contributions more than my own.

You shouldn't. First off, making them kids is really the Solid Gold moment. After that, almost anything you do with them is going to be great. The idea of adults calling themselves the Inferior Five is a bit too sad on some level to be funny. But kids? Kids call themselves names all the time, or are called them by other kids. It really works better as actual children than a bunch of neurotic grown ups. It makes it more than just slapstick.

The spin-off project Typo mentioned is 98% his.

75%. There's a lot of you in there that you don't want to acknowledge.

TomStillwell

10-15-2009, 10:44 AM

Oh please, please please! Comics need more "Magic Grownup Wish" people.

I actually have a project on the back burner that is the opposite.

A former child hero grows up and his powers fade with adulthood. He settles into a normal, happy, non-hero life. A villian comes along and uses his mad invention to turn an entire city into children in hopes of holding them ransom.

Now a teen again, he regains his powers and defeats the mad genius. While very happy with his adult life, he can't pass up the chance to once again be a hero and help people. So he swipes the de-aging machine and uses it as needed to become a teen hero.

But juggling life as an adult with a wife and kids while also being a teen superhero leads to all kinds of strange situations.

Typo Lad

10-15-2009, 10:50 AM

I actually have a project on the back burner that is the opposite.

A former child hero grows up and his powers fade with adulthood. He settles into a normal, happy, non-hero life. A villian comes along and uses his mad invention to turn an entire city into children in hopes of holding them ransom.

Now a teen again, he regains his powers and defeats the mad genius. While very happy with his adult life, he can't pass up the chance to once again be a hero and help people. So he swipes the de-aging machine and uses it as needed to become a teen hero.

But juggling life as an adult with a wife and kids while also being a teen superhero leads to all kinds of strange situations.
Sounds great! I have a somewhat similar pitch somewhere: Former late GA sidekick is a grandmother in a retirement home, and is suddenly de-aged. Hilarity and drama ensue.

Typo Lad

10-15-2009, 10:52 AM

It occurs to me, Tom, that you and I could have a lot of fun playing "lookit the pitch".

Jae Namkyoung

10-15-2009, 11:04 AM

I like Robin. I haven't really given him much thought as a character on his own. I do find him pretty interesting.

I would love the opportunity to work on Teen Titans and a lot of my readers would like to see me on the book. I have a pitch ready to go if it is ever needed. The concept is something that hasn't been done before and it makes a lot of sense within the framework of the DCU.

I love Hawkman. Like, Robin, I haven't thought much about writing him. There's a lot of stories you can do with his background and personality.

^_^

After reading your stuff it'd be awesome! I also love the ideas you've been putting out here, it is totally very very cool.

I agree with Red Jack its just bullshit that they won't cover you just because of self-publishing. A good book deserve light just like any other no matter who frelling publishes it!

PatrickG

10-15-2009, 11:58 AM

Sounds great! I have a somewhat similar pitch somewhere: Former late GA sidekick is a grandmother in a retirement home, and is suddenly de-aged. Hilarity and drama ensue.

I had a similar one recently although a bit inverted:

A kid gets a magic lamp. Wishes he could be a super-hero when he grows up. The genie says she can't grant his wish... because it's already going to happen, WITHOUT her help. So the kid replies, "Well, I wish I could see that." Poof! The kid finds himself in the future.

The trouble is, while the kid is exceptionally bright, the hero he encounters in the future is a lumbering blockhead who crashes through walls more often than he uses the door. Worse, the genie can't take him home because, mysteriously, his wish isn't granted yet for reasons unbeknownst to either of them and so this kid sets out to reform his future self.

Working title: WILLABIE WILSON & THE 13 SECRETS OF TOMORROW. Actually have a bunch of the "secrets" mapped out and some character sketches.

PatrickG

10-15-2009, 12:02 PM

Free-Man

10-15-2009, 12:31 PM

MacQuarrie

10-15-2009, 12:44 PM

Oh. And total agreement on the self-publishing BS. I suspect there are ways around that, Tom. First with contacts... But perhaps also by playing a semantic game. Say you get somebody like Jim to take over as "publisher". The work is creator owned. You're the primary investor. But with Jim or somebody assuming the publisher role, it gives you a loophole.

Heck, I would gladly act as "publisher" for any creator owned projects anyone here has, provided I don't have to put up any cash.

Tom's already built a company, Spinner Rack, that is a legitimate publisher; creating fake companies or figurehead publishers to try to fool Newsarama or whoever is just plain dumb. There are so many tax and business ramifications that would result, it's not worth even considering.

I think the thing that would move Spinner Rack from being perceived as an independent rather than self-published would be for the company to publish a comic that Tom didn't write. That takes money.

TomStillwell

10-15-2009, 12:58 PM

Tom's already built a company, Spinner Rack, that is a legitimate publisher; creating fake companies or figurehead publishers to try to fool Newsarama or whoever is just plain dumb. There are so many tax and business ramifications that would result, it's not worth even considering.

I think the thing that would move Spinner Rack from being perceived as an independent rather than self-published would be for the company to publish a comic that Tom didn't write. That takes money.

Yeah, that's the thing. I'd love to publish other people. But if I'm going to spend a ton of money putting a comic out I'm going to showcase my work. Now if someone wants to create a comic, putting up the talent and money needed on their own, I'll be their publisher and release it under the Spinner Rack label.

Although with my trade I did publish other people. I guess that does count. And I'll be publishing the Unscrewed Anthology too. Hell, by then I'll have published some of the biggest names in comics!

MacQuarrie

10-15-2009, 01:01 PM

Have you plugged the book on the Indie forum here?

I'm going to pass my copy of the TPB on to Jonah and see if maybe I can change his mind about covering you.

Typo Lad

10-15-2009, 01:03 PM

Now if someone wants to create a comic, putting up the talent and money needed on their own, I'll be their publisher and release it under the Spinner Rack label.

Hmmm. Depending on my tax refund this year, we should talk.

Although with my trade I did publish other people. I guess that does count. And I'll be publishing the Unscrewed Anthology too. Hell, by then I'll have published some of the biggest names in comics!

You know, that Trade makes for a damned good argument, even before Unscrewed.

TomStillwell

10-15-2009, 01:16 PM

You know, that Trade makes for a damned good argument, even before Unscrewed.

I thought so. I guess Newsarama didn't.

Maybe I should have called it Dark Honor Brigade or Blackest Honor Brigade?

JKCarrier

10-15-2009, 01:20 PM

Now if someone wants to create a comic, putting up the talent and money needed on their own, I'll be their publisher and release it under the Spinner Rack label.

That's what my friend Dan and I did when we put out the Glorianna comic in the '90s. We knew a guy who had a small publishing company set up, and had already had some books distributed through Diamond, so we made a deal with him to release our book under his imprint. The book still tanked, mind you, but at least we got our shot.

Come to think of it, that's essentially how Image works, isn't it?

Typo Lad

10-15-2009, 01:23 PM

I thought so. I guess Newsarama didn't.

Maybe I should have called it Dark Honor Brigade or Blackest Honor Brigade?
Did you try CBR? At the very least, you might get some love from Comics Should Be Good. Thery review everything.

TomStillwell

10-15-2009, 01:39 PM

The last time I talked to someone at CBR it was bad.

The guy contacted me about a pitch I was posting about. A pitch...not an actual book. Instead of an actual interview he threw me to the wolves in one of the forums for the posters to bash my pitch.

So I really don't trust the folks at CBR to do right by me.

TomStillwell

10-15-2009, 01:44 PM

Come to think of it, that's essentially how Image works, isn't it?

Basically. Image publishes your book and you are paid once they recover all of their expenses. If they don't recover their expenses you get nothing.

Which is more common than you'd think. I know of one very high profile, award winning even, book from Image that made no money and none of the big name creators made a dime.

Jae Namkyoung

10-15-2009, 01:50 PM

Basically. Image publishes your book and you are paid once they recover all of their expenses. If they don't recover their expenses you get nothing.

Which is more common than you'd think. I know of one very high profile, award winning even, book from Image that made no money and none of the big name creators made a dime.

That's sad. =[ Still, you'd be a great addition to DC.

Stressfactor

10-15-2009, 01:53 PM

ALL of the pitches I'm seeing here sound like WONDERFUL stories which I would LOVE to read... and this makes me sad because I can't read them because they don't exist. :frown:

TomStillwell

10-15-2009, 02:04 PM

ALL of the pitches I'm seeing here sound like WONDERFUL stories which I would LOVE to read... and this makes me sad because I can't read them because they don't exist. :frown:

It was the pitch for Jackpot...my story about random people all over the world getting temporary superpowers.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a309/Zapow21/Jackpot/jackpotcover.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a309/Zapow21/Jackpot/01_small.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a309/Zapow21/Jackpot/02_small.jpg

TomStillwell

10-15-2009, 02:05 PM

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a309/Zapow21/Jackpot/03_small.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a309/Zapow21/Jackpot/04_small.jpg

Red Jack

10-15-2009, 02:08 PM

You know the rules.

Marathon, not sprint.

It sucks in the short term but, in the long term, you will be vindicated. Like I said, you're the goods.

You won't sit on the shelf.

titanfan

10-15-2009, 02:11 PM

Whose the last name to come from DC/Marvel from the Indys? McKeever? It seems like it hasn't happened in awhile. Nowadays all of the new writers seem like they're coming from the TV industry...(no matter how bad the show they were working on was....)

JamesRitcheyIII

10-15-2009, 02:26 PM

Although I had the wind knocked out of me purty bad, I'm about to get rolling, again. I set this up as a full-blown 'alternative comics news' site, but was doing too many things at the same time last year to develop it fully:
http://radio-free-comicks.ning.com/
It's a network, and the idea is to get people to post their own articles about their own work, and to mutually promote each others' work--which I will post in the text field of the opening page. I'd like to go public with it before the end of the year, but we need contributors. All of YABS is invited, and a few creators are already there. Bobby Nash, Dave Newton, Jeff Austin, Sean Taylor, Ron Fortier, Zeu, Jim Taylor, and a few others already have pages. The idea is--it's what you make it, to have a united front/single place for those who think comics are enhanced by diversity to come slumming.

Just an idea. I haven't seen anything like it. You're all invited.

Crowley

10-15-2009, 02:34 PM

I hate to say it this way but that is FUCKING BULLSHIT.

The HONOR BRIGADE is one of the best-produced trades I've ever seen. Even if the "self-published" label was a legit dealbreaker (it's not) this partiular trade STOPPED being a DIY project the instant Gail, Colleen, James, Mike, Tim, Mike and, yes, myself, signed on to do art and stories.

Even if it hadn't been before (and it had, IMO) at that point SPINNER RACK went from being "self-publisher" to "small press." I worked with a "legit" publisher three years ago on my book THE RED LINE. I had to fight to get contractors paid (not my job). I had to do all the publicity myself (not my job). I had to wrangle the unhappy contractors when checks didn't clear (not my job). I had to find the printer and make the deal to get the SDCC copies made because the legit publisher couldn't get it together to actually do his job. Result: the book never came out and never will.

Tom is the OPPOSITE of that.

The only determiner here should be quality, both of physical product and of story.

There are "legit" TPBs that could take a lesson from HONOR BRIGADE. I'm proud to have participated. Tom is a great writer and, should he ever get the nod, would breathe some much-needed light and life into the currently ponderous and dark version of the TITANS that continues to spiral down.

Probably my support is more of a black eye than a help in this region of the comic book universe but Tom's got it and he always will.

He's the goods. Anybody too stupid to recognize that deserves either sympathy or a swift kick,.
I agree... you'd think Newsarama and CBR would get the hint from Wizard on what NOT to do. (ignore small press)

TomStillwell

10-15-2009, 02:45 PM

I agree... you'd think Newsarama and CBR would get the hint from Wizard on what NOT to do. (ignore small press)

One problem is that they still consider publishers like Dark Horse, Image, IDW, etc. as small press. They aren't. Those are well established publishers. They aren't Indie.

I'm small press. I'm Indie.

MacQuarrie

10-15-2009, 03:01 PM

JamesRitcheyIII

10-15-2009, 03:15 PM

One problem is that they still consider publishers like Dark Horse, Image, IDW, etc. as small press. They aren't. Those are well established publishers. They aren't Indie.

I'm small press. I'm Indie.

QFT.

I had an argument with some moron here a while back, with him saying that we--Indy superhero creators--all suck, basically. My retorted question was--how the HELL would he know?

Most of the best, most original, most uncompromising comics creators I know GAVE UP. Hell--I've given up TWICE.

Jackpot looks incredible, BTW.

TomStillwell

10-15-2009, 03:29 PM

[Jackpot looks incredible, BTW.

I had high hopes for it but of all the publishers I submitted to only Ape Entertainment even bothered sending a rejection letter. Everyone else soundly ignored it.

Free-Man

10-15-2009, 03:36 PM

Ya know, I certainly think Tom is a huge talent, but I'm not a fan of him taking a book from another writer, especially one who is just starting out.

Typo Lad

10-15-2009, 04:15 PM

I had high hopes for it but of all the publishers I submitted to only Ape Entertainment even bothered sending a rejection letter. Everyone else soundly ignored it.
Now that I hate.

Have the decency to tell someone know, y'know?

JamesRitcheyIII

10-15-2009, 04:46 PM

Y'know, Tom...it would'nt hurt to have a cover letter written by one Gail Simone, since she likes your work...a 'universal' thing in this industry, that goes back to well before I was trying to get work with Marvel and DC (over 20 years), is that a vast percentage of submissions editors are so desensitized from looking at crap, they can't tell the difference between good or bad art, or good or bad concepts.
I know if Scott Hampton still wanted to help me get work (which he has), I'd be askin' him to do the same thing.

TomStillwell

10-15-2009, 04:54 PM

Ya know, I certainly think Tom is a huge talent, but I'm not a fan of him taking a book from another writer, especially one who is just starting out.

I don't understand this post. What do you mean?

PatrickG

10-15-2009, 05:00 PM

Y'know, Tom...it would hurt to have a cover letter written by one Gail Simone, since she likes your work...a 'universal' thing in this industry, that goes back to well before I was trying to get work with Marvel and DC (over 20 years), is that a vast percentage of submissions editors are so desensitized from looking at crap, they can't tell the difference between good or bad art, or good or bad concepts.
I know if Scott Hampton still wanted to help me get work (which he has), I'd be askin' him to do the same thing.

This goes to the heart of something I take issue with. Editors tend to be retired writers and artists, writers and artists who wanted more "big picture" involvement, "failed" or uncommercial writers and artists, gifted people who there was no room for anywhere else and outsiders brought in for their contacts.

I happen to think that each and every one of these backgrounds are counterproductive to being an editor and that good editors are good editors in spite of these things -- but that, almost universally, all of these traits hurt more than they help.

A good editor is a fresh perspective, not a shaping perspective. A good editor is the kind of fresh perspective who is innately (or through training) incapable of desensitization. They read scripts and examine art as a reader. They don't get accustomed to tropes or shorthand, no matter how familiar with them they are. They can read twenty of the worst scripts imaginable in a day and see the value of the one that is marginally better; they don't PUBLISH the one that is marginally better but their palette is as nuanced as any connoisseur. They don't go on their gut but are capable of being empirical and critical.

And they know quality so they don't need stunts to market what they're editing. That doesn't mean a good editor is afraid of stunts of big name talent but isn't especially drawn to them either and doesn't NEED to be. Kill Superman? Fine. There's a story in that, even for the dozenth time but it's about sheparding the creative journey and not the marketing. Hire Joss Whedon? Hell, yeah! The guy's entertaining. But the true test is whether they'd hire Joss Whedon if he insisted on writing under a noname pseudonym. No good editor would reject that opportunity on a marketing consideration, which needs to be somebody else's headache anyway.

Free-Man

10-15-2009, 05:08 PM

I don't understand this post. What do you mean?

Oh, my bad, I should've been more clear. It was in reference to the constant calls of "Give Tom the Teen Titans!"

Red Jack

10-15-2009, 05:25 PM

Oh, my bad, I should've been more clear. It was in reference to the constant calls of "Give Tom the Teen Titans!"

I'm critical of pretty much all the TITANS writers of the last decade as well as their editors. While, once again, the TV guys managed to grasp what the book is meant to be, the ex-Fanboys running the books seem not to have a clue.

Tom has a clue. He has more than one clue. He has written enough that it's clear, but for a complete lack of the right connections, he should, AT LEAST, be pitching his ideas to the appropriate people

Personally, I've long since given up the ghost on the Big Two and, in my heart, I would recommend against anyone, Tom included, chasing that deal for too long. (Own Your Own Stuff, is very much my motto.)

There's just too much croneyism to overcome. Going the indy route might not be as "prestigious" and it might be considerably more bumpy in some respects but, when it's all said and done, you're not kissing anyone's ass just to get them to let you, maybe, try your hand at something you do well already.

Honor Brigade is awesome. The other stuff I've seen from Tom is awesome. He's talented and versatile and, more than pretty much any other writer I know (who's not a big time pro), DISCIPLINED. Those qualities went a LONG way towards me liking him as a person but, even if I thought he was a dick, I would still recommend him for the sort of work that he clearly loves to do and is, just as clearly, great at.

Nothing against the croneys, but, really. If you never open the freaking doors, you're going to asphixiate.

Here's a compromise.

Bring back TEAM TITANS and give it to Tom. There. That way nobody's widdle feelings are hurt and we might, just might, get some fun, all-ages adventure from somebody who knows how to write it.

Free-Man

10-15-2009, 05:29 PM

Bring back TEAM TITANS and give it to Tom. There. That way nobody's widdle feelings are hurt and we might, just might, get some fun, all-ages adventure from somebody who knows how to write it.

Why the conescending attitude? All I did was say that so far, all the new writer has done was one issue.

JamesRitcheyIII

10-15-2009, 05:35 PM

This goes to the heart of something I take issue with. Editors tend to be retired writers and artists, writers and artists who wanted more "big picture" involvement, "failed" or uncommercial writers and artists, gifted people who there was no room for anywhere else and outsiders brought in for their contacts.

I happen to think that each and every one of these backgrounds are counterproductive to being an editor and that good editors are good editors in spite of these things -- but that, almost universally, all of these traits hurt more than they help.

A good editor is a fresh perspective, not a shaping perspective. A good editor is the kind of fresh perspective who is innately (or through training) incapable of desensitization. They read scripts and examine art as a reader. They don't get accustomed to tropes or shorthand, no matter how familiar with them they are. They can read twenty of the worst scripts imaginable in a day and see the value of the one that is marginally better; they don't PUBLISH the one that is marginally better but their palette is as nuanced as any connoisseur. They don't go on their gut but are capable of being empirical and critical.

And they know quality so they don't need stunts to market what they're editing. That doesn't mean a good editor is afraid of stunts of big name talent but isn't especially drawn to them either and doesn't NEED to be. Kill Superman? Fine. There's a story in that, even for the dozenth time but it's about sheparding the creative journey and not the marketing. Hire Joss Whedon? Hell, yeah! The guy's entertaining. But the true test is whether they'd hire Joss Whedon if he insisted on writing under a noname pseudonym. No good editor would reject that opportunity on a marketing consideration, which needs to be somebody else's headache anyway.

Patrick--I like you, but desensitization is a real thing. We'll have to agree to disagree. It was Rod Whigham who sold me on that trope--at a time he was Marvel's best paid artist, after Miller and Byrne left--and I've never seen a margin of 'former' creators as editors greater than 20% at any company. Jim Shooter single-handedly changed the dialogue from 'is it good?' to 'will it sell?' two decades ago.

Thinking 'the work should speak for itself' is idealistic--and that's being polite. Now, to have a chance to get in, it's any whorish trick in the book--and when someone great and original gets in, it's a fluke.

Typo Lad

10-15-2009, 05:39 PM

Bring back TEAM TITANS .

Never, ever, ever, EVER mention that book!

Horrible, horrible flashbacks.

TomStillwell

10-15-2009, 05:40 PM

Free-Man

10-15-2009, 05:45 PM

Never, ever, ever, EVER mention that book!

Horrible, horrible flashbacks.

That's actually a prime example of suffocating editorial mandates. I read up on the piece on some really interesting ideas the writer had (Terra being a lesbian earthie, Killowag being a racist), and the editors were seriously just telling him "Give us X-Force".

titanfan

10-15-2009, 05:49 PM

Never, ever, ever, EVER mention that book!

Horrible, horrible flashbacks.

I for one, LOVED it.

Red Jack

10-15-2009, 05:51 PM

Why the conescending attitude? All I did was say that so far, all the new writer has done was one issue.

not condescending. just not concerned.

this is a gladiator's game. All I'm saying is level the field and let the big dog fight.

PatrickG

10-15-2009, 05:51 PM

I'm sure it's real. I have no doubt it's the natural tendency in any artistic role or in any role where you deal with artists.

But professors and priests take sabbaticals as a means of dealing with it.

The central greatest challenge of being an actor is staying in the moment, even when you've done the same scene fifty times in a row or played the same type of character or situation what seems like forever or when you're occupying a role that seems inhuman and unfathomable.

It happens, yes. But ESPECIALLY with editors, the FIRST and FOREMOST hiring criteria needs to be about finding people who have a mutant immunity to desensitization or who have developed skills to cope through it. And it needs to be a constant focus within an editorial organization, combating that tendency.

The freshman comp professor who despairs for the world because of the crappy essays his students give him is a failure, regardless of what happens or what he manages to teach them or what those students go on to do.

If everything you do or work with is rubbish to you, you can never succeed at anything. Even successes become failures with that mentality.

Don't get me wrong; the mentality is real and it is the natural consequence of reading that much crap, of the pressures subjected to somebody in that position. But I think the natural outcome here isn't satisfactory, it isn't acceptable and it doesn't do anyone anywhere one iota of good.

Typo Lad

10-15-2009, 05:52 PM

I for one, LOVED it.
It was an inconsistently written abomination.

The vampire character's origin changed three times in as many issues!

Typo Lad

10-15-2009, 05:55 PM

That's actually a prime example of suffocating editorial mandates. I read up on the piece on some really interesting ideas the writer had (Terra being a lesbian earthie, Killowag being a racist), and the editors were seriously just telling him "Give us X-Force".
Killowatt, not Killowag, and the best bit of that was that they flipped it so they could have the tension.

I own the entire run. I honestly didn't think the book could get worse!

And originally, they were even supposed to get Liefeld on it apparantly.

PatrickG

10-15-2009, 05:55 PM

Thinking 'the work should speak for itself' is idealistic--and that's being polite. Now, to have a chance to get in, it's any whorish trick in the book--and when someone great and original gets in, it's a fluke.

I'm not sure if I'm the idealist or the cynic here, BTW.

You describe the world as it is and say, "It sucks but you have to adapt." I see the world as it could be and my instinct is to torch, carpetbomb and torpedo anything that doesn't resemble that better world until that better world exists or there's nothing left, either being preferable to the world we inhabit.

I'd rather beat my head against a brick wall until I'm in a coma on the off chance that it may collapse than let a brick wall exist somewhere it has no place being, no matter how easy it is to walk around.

PatrickG

10-15-2009, 05:57 PM

It was an inconsistently written abomination.

The vampire character's origin changed three times in as many issues!

Deathwing?

He was originally future Dick Grayson but then he was revealed to be a vampire from a parallel universe and then it was implied that he was Jason Todd, right? Isn't it possible he is Jason Todd now?

Free-Man

10-15-2009, 05:57 PM

Killowatt, not Killowag, and the best bit of that was that they flipped it so they could have the tension.

I own the entire run. I honestly didn't think the book could get worse!

And originally, they were even supposed to get Liefeld on it apparantly.

Trust me, I'm not doubting it was an awful book. I was just saying that it's clearly one of those books that was doomed from the start due to editorial interference, ala McDuffie's JLA.

JamesRitcheyIII

10-15-2009, 06:26 PM

I'm not sure if I'm the idealist or the cynic here, BTW.

You describe the world as it is and say, "It sucks but you have to adapt." I see the world as it could be and my instinct is to torch, carpetbomb and torpedo anything that doesn't resemble that better world until that better world exists or there's nothing left, either being preferable to the world we inhabit.

I'd rather beat my head against a brick wall until I'm in a coma on the off chance that it may collapse than let a brick wall exist somewhere it has no place being, no matter how easy it is to walk around.

I'm for adapting to circumstance for marketing purposes, but not budging an inch on the work. My biggest 'problem' has always been drawing the way I want, and writing the same--when I could have easily ganked Jim Lee's, or name-the-flavor-of-the-week's-style, and written 'plot-driven', and totally have gotten hired. Short of that, I'm for getting noticed by any promotional means necessary...

Typo Lad

10-15-2009, 06:37 PM

Deathwing?

He was originally future Dick Grayson but then he was revealed to be a vampire from a parallel universe and then it was implied that he was Jason Todd, right? Isn't it possible he is Jason Todd now?

No, Deathwing wasn't a vampire. Dagon, aka Night Rider, was the vampire. Future Dick was a Trigon Seed, not a Vampire, which directly contradicted the entire Titans Hunt story, where they revealed the only reason Dick wasn't kidnapped is he had no powers and couldn't be a Trigon seed.

MacQuarrie

10-15-2009, 09:41 PM

It happens, yes. But ESPECIALLY with editors, the FIRST and FOREMOST hiring criteria needs to be about finding people who have a mutant immunity to desensitization or who have developed skills to cope through it. And it needs to be a constant focus within an editorial organization, combating that tendency.
The first and foremost criteria needs to be organizational ability. Then a strong command of the language, grammar, spelling, punctuation. Then a strong sense of what makes a story work. Then the ability to motivate people to do their best work and meet the deadlines. This resistance to desensitization you describe is primarily an ability to remain interested in the work. Desensitization occurs when apathy sets in. There's no way to test for it, so it can't really be a criteria for hiring.

sweetdreams

10-16-2009, 12:15 AM

I was wondering about zuda or Drunk Duck?

Cam63

10-16-2009, 12:53 AM

...he'd be pretty damn happy. Just sayin'.

I just wish I had the right connections, Tom.

...Yeah, WhiteRose is as useless as an iceskate in Tahiti.

Cam63

10-16-2009, 12:53 AM

...Lester said so !

Duy

10-16-2009, 12:56 AM

...he'd be pretty damn happy. Just sayin'.
I hate to give this advice because it's almost certainly really hard to do, but have you thought about hunting down a nearby comic creator and being all chummy?

TomStillwell

10-16-2009, 06:05 AM

I hate to give this advice because it's almost certainly really hard to do, but have you thought about hunting down a nearby comic creator and being all chummy?

I am good friends with several people who work for DC. Not because they work for DC but because they are awesome people.

But being friends with someone at DC doesn't get you a shot to work there. You have to produce something to warrant the opportunity and somehow find a willing editor to look at your work.

Jae Namkyoung

10-16-2009, 07:01 AM

I am good friends with several people who work for DC. Not because they work for DC but because they are awesome people.

But being friends with someone at DC doesn't get you a shot to work there. You have to produce something to warrant the opportunity and somehow find a willing editor to look at your work.

Laurie Sutton? Maybe? I met her at Dragon*Con this year on a Star Trek Panel. She seemed nice, then again I was only talking about Star Trek with her and the characters. I didn't any contact info though, :frown:

Oh and I found something else you can write! Ready? Since we're already on a Bird theme with Red Robin (Tim Drake) and Hawkman (Katar Hol/Carter Hall) how about the Blackhawks! ^_^

TomStillwell

10-16-2009, 07:52 AM

Laurie Sutton? Maybe? I met her at Dragon*Con this year on a Star Trek Panel. She seemed nice, then again I was only talking about Star Trek with her and the characters. I didn't any contact info though, :frown:

Oh and I found something else you can write! Ready? Since we're already on a Bird theme with Red Robin (Tim Drake) and Hawkman (Katar Hol/Carter Hall) how about the Blackhawks! ^_^

I don't know Laurie Sutton at all.

I love the Blackhawks too. Their presence in present day DCU is kind of undefined so it would be fun to hammer out their story. A story actually detailing the various aspects of the the DCU's military related characters would be a fun one.

Shade

10-16-2009, 08:39 AM

I am good friends with several people who work for DC. Not because they work for DC but because they are awesome people.

But being friends with someone at DC doesn't get you a shot to work there. You have to produce something to warrant the opportunity and somehow find a willing editor to look at your work.

The bolded section seems to be the key....because your work is better than a lot of what the big two are putting out. So just keep your head down and keep pluggin and hold onto hope. Your too talented to be held down for too long.

Stressfactor

10-16-2009, 09:08 AM

I honestly believe there hasn't been a decent editor at EITHER of the Big Two since Archie Goodwin passed away.

Duy

10-16-2009, 11:32 AM

Jae Namkyoung

10-16-2009, 11:53 AM

I don't know Laurie Sutton at all.

Yeah I didn't get a chance to nab contact info since I was pretty much 'deer in the headlights' the entire time, but she seemed pretty nice, down to earth. She certainly loves Star Trek hehe.

sweetdreams

10-16-2009, 12:46 PM

grrummble grumble I'm confused. Why aren't Zuda and Drunk Duck a good avenue? (DD, I can see worrying about the IP problems) but Zuda, if people get it, it gets published right? You'd have a start of an audience from here and build one there and if it didn't, then self publishing or a webcomic would be the best way to go anyway wouldn't it?
I'd vote for it. (probably as many times as it let me). oh well.

Oookay, guess I better let it go then. I do hope Mr. Stilwell will write for DC for certain so that part I can understand.

TomStillwell

10-16-2009, 05:05 PM

There are a couple problems with doing a Zuda comic.

First of all, I'm a writer with almost no artistic talent. I'd need a collaborator or art team willing to work closely with me to produce a pretty hefty amount of pages for Zuda. Unlike my comics that have a return of profit from which I can pay an art team, there's a great possibility that there would be no financial return on their work. So anyone working with me would have to be willing to work for free with only a very shaky promise of being paid.

Second, even if I could find someone willing to work for free I'd need to keep up a constant flow of pages for Zuda. I can't do that working a day job. Even if I won the Zuda competition, it wouldn't pay anywhere nearly enough to constitute me quitting my 9-5.

Third, I don't want to write web comics.

MacQuarrie

10-16-2009, 06:50 PM

The Graphic Artists Guild generally advises against entering design contests. Usually, the fine print gives the company some rights to the submissions, without requiring payment. So if you don't win, you're giving work away for free. Generally, the prize is worth less than what you would have been paid if hired to do the job.

Here are their guidelines to determine whether a contest is worth entering:

http://www.graphicartistsguild.org/resources/guidelines-for-art-competitions/

I've heard enough negative publicity about Drunk Duck to avoid them. Zuda I'm on the fence about.

sweetdreams

10-16-2009, 07:14 PM

There are a couple problems with doing a Zuda comic.

First of all, I'm a writer with almost no artistic talent. I'd need a collaborator or art team willing to work closely with me to produce a pretty hefty amount of pages for Zuda. Unlike my comics that have a return of profit from which I can pay an art team, there's a great possibility that there would be no financial return on their work. So anyone working with me would have to be willing to work for free with only a very shaky promise of being paid.

Second, even if I could find someone willing to work for free I'd need to keep up a constant flow of pages for Zuda. I can't do that working a day job. Even I won the Zuda competition, it wouldn't pay anywhere nearly enough to constitute me quitting my 9-5.

Third, I don't want to write web comics.

Ah, ok, well that makes sense then. I misunderstood that there wasn't an artist on the project, sorry.

Macquarrie, I've heard so many bad things about DD, and at the same time people seem to keep going with them so I wondered how folks felt here.

Thanks =)