Gay, WiR and Superhero related

[K-DoG7p7]

yes! its a perfect YABS thread!

Saw this!
http://perrymoorestories.com/content/hero.asp?id=superheroes

Not its interesting.. its a list of Gay heroes and how they are treated, only..
most of it is wrong

Lets me take a few examples

MONSIEUR MALLAH & THE BRAIN
Sadistic supervillains and gay lovers. One is a talking gorilla and the other is a disembodied brain in a jar. They’ve been searching to create a new body for the Brain so he and Monsieur Mallah may consummate their love. Last appeared in DC’s Teen Titans, aimed at teens. No gay heroes in the book, just these gay villains.
May not have been any Gay Titans in that story he mentions, but Hero Cruz was a Titan and he was Gay.
Also further down the list there is a Titan
JERICHO
Member of The New Teen Titans. According to co-creator George Perez, he was a “sensitive, artistic, wide-eyed character with arguably effeminate features” that could be interpreted as homosexual. Ultimately became a crazed threat, and killed, impaled by his father’s sword. Recently resurrected.
" that could be interpreted as homosexual" .. really?

ICE
Lesbian member of DC’s superheroes Justice League International. Murdered. Last seen by her teammates in Hell.
Ice? really? when has she EVER been shown to be anything by straight? I know fans dream of her and Fire doing it, but shes Straight.
Naturally this person might be mixing Tora with IceMaiden who is Bi, but she is not dead... ir maybe she is .. who knows she was Massivly WiRed just after OYL.

OBSIDIAN
Former hero of DC’s Infinity Incorporated. De-powered, corrupted by his sexual strife, manipulated by dark forces, tries to destroy the world. His homosexuality is attributed to being molested by his adopted father. Recently placed as the security guard on the all-straight Justice Society of America, but not allowed to sit at the table as a member of the team.
ohh for fuck sake... this list is starting to sound like something from Glen Beck.


PIED PIPER
As lame a villain as the name implies. Blows on a magical pipe to make people do his bidding. A longtime villain in The Flash. Has tried fighting on the side of the good guys, but has recently gone back to being a villain. His parents are murdered by teammate The Mirror Master.
Soo.. really? just because he is lame he deserves to be on that list?

THE QUESTION
Renee Montoya, a lesbian alcoholic ex-cop, who after a string of failed relationships and self-destructive alcoholism, replaces DC’s detective, who wears a mask with no face.
and?

GREEN ARROW II/ CONNOR HAWKE
The original Green Arrow’s son. After a long stint in Kevin Smith’s revamp of Green Arrow where Connor is alluded to be gay, his character is made retroactively straight when new writers take over the series.
A Character that was never gay to begin mwith was made retroactively straight! SHOCKING!! , Seriusly people who tend to think Connor is gay have never read Dixons Green Arrow. Fun Fact, Connor got more fur then Ollie ever did. only Ollie actually got the fur, with Connor its stops with a kiss.

TASMANIAN DEVIL
Gay hero of DC’s Global Guardians team. Minor character. Mostly forgotten.
and recently killed ..

SHRINKING VIOLET/LIGHTNING LASS, INVISIBLE KID, ELEMENT LAD
Members of DC’s long-running book “The Legion of Superheroes” who have each been featured in storylines hinting at their homosexuality None ever came out of the closet. Apparently there are no gay heroes whatsoever two-thousand years in the future according to the world of DC comics.
So thery are gay but never came out of the closet and therefor there are no gay people in the future?.. LOGIC!

BATWOMAN
Rewritten as a lesbian. Closeted. Writers and artists focus on her pneumatic talents, aimed at straight-boy titillation. Kidnapped, tortured, and stabs a sword through her stomach. Original character murdered in Detective Comics #485.
Ok thats one half of the story.. the other half is where shes out and no longer has the knife in her heart..

RAINMAKER
Lipstick lesbian bisexual member of Gen 13. Used mostly for purposes of straight-boy titillation.
yes.. Aka a 90's creation.. also didn't know you could be "lesbian bisexual" ..

ULTRA-HUMANITE
Super-villain/mad scientist who possessed the body of a female to carry out her crimes. First transgendered character in comics, created in 1939, and has been trying to destroy DC’s heroes and take over the world ever since.
very true and thanks for actually mentioning Ultra humanite is trasgendered.. never thought about that.. See! T's got a awesome character to look up too.

JOSIAH POWER
Elder leader of short-lived DC Superteam “The Power Company.” Quickly cancelled. Never to be heard from again.
This character was misstreated because the series was not a sucsess!!

FAUNA
Daughter of DC supervillain Felix Faust, lesbian member of supervillain team Strike Force Kobra. Killed in action.
Faust had a daughter? never knew that..

SCANDAL & KNOCKOUT
Lesbian lovers and supervillain/assassin members of DC’s “The Secret Six.”
yes.. and one is now dead (a death thst is in no way shape or form related to her sexuality!)

Not gonna bother with the rest.. there are plenty of X-men and stuff there and The Joker and Robin.. yes.. apparently they are gay

But further down the page.. fun fun fun

Ages 4-10

The age-correlated sizes in which Wolverine Deluxe Child Costume is available for children for Halloween. Available with muscle torso, jumpsuit, boots, mask, and pair of claws. Northstar costume not available for impaling.
Right.. Northstar is just as popular as Wolverine but there are no costumes for sale because he is GAY! ..

ZERO. Number of gay heroes in the Justice League and Justice Society of America, DC’s premiere super-hero groups, since their inceptions.
Ohh my god thats shocking!!

waaaaaaaaait a minute! what about Obsidian that was singeled out as a member of the JSA ealier on the page! and what about IceMaiden who was on the JLA in the 90's? Come to think about it.. this page list Ice as Lesbian.. and SHE was a JLA member too.

ZERO. Number of gay heroes in the Legion of Superheroes, which takes place two-thousand years in the future.
but there are FOUR closeted gay members of the LoSH according to this site.

ZERO. Number of movie and TV adaptations with the Authority, which features a gay version of Superman and Batman, Midnighter and Apollo.Right.. because they are sooo popular its would be natural for them to have a TV show..


stupid site is stupid

[Mister Blisterfists]

Agreed.

Supposition and poor research, combined with bad examples all around.

it actually works against their own self-interest.

[The Beast Of Yucca Flats]

BLOKE

First openly gay member of Marvel's X-Force/X-Statix. Killed on first mission.

Now, I haven't read much of Milligan & Allred's Force/Statix myself, but still, wasn't the whole point of that book that it's a superteam where EVERYBODY dies?

And that's not even getting into his epic missing of the point with Watchmen, The Authority, & The Boys (a book I'm not even that interested in).

[Corrina]

Bad research and stretched facts help convince no one of a real problem, no matter what the issue.

[spark627]

I really like Perry (I have chatted with him on Facebook, he is lovely) and love his book "Hero", but that list is mostly wrong and based on personal assumptions.

[NickThompson]

NED CAMPBELL
A gay mutant who projects his astral form to take on a male lover. His wife, suspecting an affair, hires a detective who discovers the truth. Killed by a superhero, Wolfsbane of X-Factor, who slashes him apart after they catch him engaged in sex with his male lover (Madrox #4).
That one is so manipulative of the truth it's crazy. It makes it sound like Rahne saw the gay sex and went into a hate-filled rage, when it reality she slashed at him after he tried to hit her with a giant signpost as she ran away.

[Typo Lad]

There's a bunch of things wrong there.

1) Jericho is asexual if he's anything.
2) He's thinking of Ice Maiden, not Ice. Also died, but not the one this guy thinks she is.
3) Obsidian's treatment is kinda stinky.
4) Lightning Lass/Shrinking Violet were very clearly a couple in 5YL.

There's a lot of stuff wrong on that site.

[K-DoG7p7]

2) He's thinking of Ice Maiden, not Ice. Also died, but not the one this guy thinks she is.

we have no idea of knowing.. because she was WiRed to the max! complet with zero followup and stuff

[Typo Lad]

Well, we know because she told Fire, on panel.

Also, I don't know if Ice Maiden counts as WiR. She died to build up a female badguy, the Mist, not a boyfriend or somesuch.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I didn´t know MONSIEUR MALLAH & THE BRAIN were gay lovers.

[Grazzt]

I didn´t know MONSIEUR MALLAH & THE BRAIN were gay lovers.

Happened in Morrison's run on Doom Patrol. Everyone liked it, so it stuck.

[K-DoG7p7]

Well, we know because she told Fire, on panel.
who told Fire what?

Also, I don't know if Ice Maiden counts as WiR. She died to build up a female badguy, the Mist, not a boyfriend or somesuch.
IceMaiden was WiRed in JSA Classified #19 when Delores Winters (yes THE Delores Winters) stole her skin so she could become "Endless Winter".
it happened just to give Doctor Midnite a new enemy..

[FeminineMystique]

There's a bunch of things wrong there.

1) Jericho is asexual if he's anything.
2) He's thinking of Ice Maiden, not Ice. Also died, but not the one this guy thinks she is.3) Obsidian's treatment is kinda stinky.
4) Lightning Lass/Shrinking Violet were very clearly a couple in 5YL.

There's a lot of stuff wrong on that site.

She's not dead. She was last seen at STAR labs, getting treatment after Delores Winters (Yep, the one whose body the Humanite took for a test drive) had her skinned.

Although it's still pretty lousy treatment of a character, so it probably isn't a good counter agurment.

And yep, Lightning Lass/Shrinking Violet were together. I'd love to see some follow up on that now the "Classic" Legion is back over in Adventure Comics

[K-DoG7p7]

She's not dead. She was last seen at STAR labs, getting treatment after Delores Winters (Yep, the one whose body the Humanite took for a test drive) had her skinned.

actually the last thing we see her her cryotank bursting .. we never get any hints as to wether shes alive or dead after that

[ryerye17]

I like that site. And I'm sorry but Connor Hawke is gay and Ice is a lesbian.

[AaronJ]

actually the last thing we see her her cryotank bursting .. we never get any hints as to wether shes alive or dead after that

Yes you do. She's being helped, though it's much later, and I can't remember which freakin' book it was in. But she definitely appears after the scene your talking about.

[Free-Man]

I like that site. And I'm sorry but Connor Hawke is gay and Ice is a lesbian.

This list is bullshit. Its like the guy hasn't read any of the books he's bitching about. Does he even know Batwoman has her own book?

[K-DoG7p7]

Yes you do. She's being helped, though it's much later, and I can't remember which freakin' book it was in. But she definitely appears after the scene your talking about.

I don't belive you..

issue and pagenumber!

[Typo Lad]

who told Fire what?

Ice Maiden told Fire she was into girls.

IceMaiden was WiRed in JSA Classified #19 when Delores Winters (yes THE Delores Winters) stole her skin so she could become "Endless Winter".
it happened just to give Doctor Midnite a new enemy..

What? Really? So she got killed twice?

I like that site. And I'm sorry but Connor Hawke is gay and Ice is a lesbian.

Naw, Ice II is straight.

Conner I dunno about. I always liked him as asexual. I liked the idea that not every hero was going to be a horndog, and it fit that it was the guy every writer writes as Mr. Ladies Man.

[K-DoG7p7]

Ice Maiden told Fire she was into girls.
No one denies that..

What? Really? So she got killed twice?

as far as i know IceMaiden has just been killed once..


Naw, Ice II is straight.

hell i don't even think she knows what gay is.

Conner I dunno about. I always liked him as asexual. I liked the idea that not every hero was going to be a horndog, and it fit that it was the guy every writer writes as Mr. Ladies Man.
he is asexual.... that wat makes it so fun given that every chick he is around falls head over heels for him..



also he had sex with a chick in china


GHOSTS COUNT!!

[spidervenom]

Didn't obsian come out in manhunter. Plus, obsidian is the teams base security while he is in a shadow, why would he sit at the table?
Also, batwoman is tittalting! How is that different from every other superheorine?

[Flamebird]

This list is bullshit. Its like the guy hasn't read any of the books he's bitching about. Does he even know Batwoman has her own book?
No she doesn't. She's just borrowing Batman's book till he comes back. :wink:

Didn't obsian come out in manhunter. Plus, obsidian is the teams base security while he is in a shadow, why would he sit at the table?
Also, batwoman is tittalting! How is that different from every other superheorine?

Why shouldn't he? With his powers, he could easily do both; plus be able to communicate with the rest of the team, for a change.

[FeminineMystique]

No she doesn't. She's just borrowing Batman's book till he comes back. :wink:

Grant's hinted even whe Bruce returns, he might not be Batman again (at least right away). And what makes you think he'll be back in Tec?

Personally I'd just as soon see Kate stay the main character for good (Or at least for a long time to come:smile: ) Bats has four other books to show up in. Let Kate keep hers

Why shouldn't he? With his powers, he could easily do both; plus be able to communicate with the rest of the team, for a change.

Obsidian HATES all the other members of the team. It's the only logical explanation. I bet at night he zooms around the base in the shaodws, putting their fingers in warm water and tying shoelaces together:tongue:

[bert]

you may have missed this, because it's in white type against a baby-blue background:



Copyright © 2007 Perry Moore, All Rights Reserved


I have no problem with his list.

looking at something from 2+ years ago, yes, there are some factual errors (particularly the Legion stuff). . but for the most part?

nope, no issues w/ Perry's list.

[Free-Man]

No she doesn't. She's just borrowing Batman's book till he comes back. :wink:.

It's been hinted that it'll at least be a over a year. He already has multiple stoylines announced.

The list of full of little factual errors.

[K-DoG7p7]

So what if its 2 years old?

Its still wrong

Claim: No gay titans
Fact: yes.. yes there are hell he even tries to claim that 2 titans that are not or might be gay are gay

Claim: No Gay JLAer.. EVER!
Fact: yes there have been.. and once again.. he mentions one example in the list (its wrong.. but its two characters that are often mixed)

Claim: No gay JSAer.. EVER!
Fact: yes there are, one is even on the team right now and guess what.. thats right.. he mentions that character in the list.. an entry that is all "I havent seen that character at the table.. HE IS NOT ALLOWED AT THE TABLE!"
Sandmad is never at the table anymore neither.. is he not allowed?

[Perry Holley]

Wasn't there a thread on YABS about a year or so ago concerning said list?

[Flamebird]

Wasn't there a thread on YABS about a year or so ago concerning said list?

Everything old IS new again. :wink:

[bert]

So what if its 2 years old?


because information that may have been true 2 years ago is no longer true (due to character developments).

yes the list has some innacuracies, but not enough that I'll discount it.

and you really need to be rational about the Titans. Hero may have been a Titan, but not as a member of the team when it was successful, and honestly, I couldn't tell you when he was a member. I know he was a member of Superboy and the Ravers. .but the Titans? not too memorable.

[ScottyQuick]

I think what would be more telling is if someone made a list of every LGBT character and every hetcis character.

[AaronJ]

I think what would be more telling is if someone made a list of every LGBT character and every hetcis character.

Every WHAT character?! Huh?

[ConnorFan]

ah I remember this list. I wrote a few emails to the author of this list a couple years ago on the subject of Connor Hawke being retconned straight: http://www.perrymoorestories.com/heroes/2007_11_01_archive.asp

[Mick]

Every WHAT character?! Huh?





Either a noun or adjective. Noun: A heterosexual, cissexual, straight-acting person who conforms to conventional gender roles and is often heterocentric. Adjective: A way to describe something heterosexual, cissexual, gender-conformist and heterocentric.

[perry moore]

Thanks, Bert, for the kind comment.

I really just put that list together, knowing it was slanted, to inspire discussion to make things better and to bring attention to the issue of either lack of representation or misrepresentation of LGBT characters at the time.

Most of the time, I wish I'd just left the list alone at Northstar and Freedom Ring as examples. I had some interesting exchanges with Robert Kirkman, who was very nice and apologetic over Freedom Ring.

At any rate, I'd hoped more people paid attention to the forward I wrote, which explained my intent better than the examples did. I truly meant for it to be a list to be modified, in hopes that it would track positive changes in LGBT representations in comics.

And, moreover, I wanted the list to lead people to check out HERO, which still stands as a book where a male gay teen hero is the protagonist of his own story. Not a supporting character, not there for comic relief, not there to be killed off for plot's sake, not there as a cliche, but someone who struggles just like anyone--gay or straight. A hero who is not defined by his sexuality, which happens to be gay. No book is perfect. At the same time, I am proud of HERO, and extremely proud to be a catalyst for some of the great, positive changes in people's lives, which I hear a lot about in my discussion forum

If you are interested in discussing the topic more in depth with me, I'd be happy to hear from you, happy to talk with you, and happy to post all your changes to the list.

In a nutshell, I'd rather let HERO represent my feelings on the subject over that list. I know this a forum where people feel free to fire away, and I support everyone's right to his or her own opinion. But I'd love you to read HERO before you render your opinion, and I'd ask that you take HERO into account when thinking about the list. And lastly, I agree with most everyone's comments on this forum, especially when it comes to the factual errors. Thank you for correcting them. And thank you for participating in the discussion.

Years ago, such a discussion wasn't even possible. Look how far we've come! Now we have people like Gail Simone writing strong characters who just happen to be gay, too. And that's a creative world I like to read and continue to discover as a fanboy. For instance, I'd love to read stories where I learn more about Obsidian as a character, and I'd love to read Legion books where some members are gay and out and it's no big deal.

Someone in one of these columns once said they wished for a more positive tone when discussing the issue of LGBT representation in comics. I agree. And I apologize if the list comes off as negative. That is certainly not the intent, and I understand how the weaker examples come off as unsupportive, unecessisarily provocative, or worse. If I had it to do all over again, I'd keep the tone extremely more positive.

But at the time I was fired up, especially over Freedom Ring, and the multiple deaths of Northstar, and just the lack of more characters I could relate to. Sometimes that fire in your belly can work for you (as I believe it did in writing HERO), or it can work against you (as many of you point out that the list did.).

All in all, you taught me and I learned some valuable lessons.

Thanks for taking the time to listen.

Always aim high for the inner HERO in you!

All the best,
Perry Moore,
author of HERO
perrymoorestories@gmail.com


you may have missed this, because it's in white type against a baby-blue background:



Copyright © 2007 Perry Moore, All Rights Reserved


I have no problem with his list.

looking at something from 2+ years ago, yes, there are some factual errors (particularly the Legion stuff). . but for the most part?

nope, no issues w/ Perry's list.

[perry moore]

I like that site. And I'm sorry but Connor Hawke is gay and Ice is a lesbian.

How could I not agree with "The Goddess of Fierce."
Thanks for the comment.
Perry

[Michael P]

Now, I haven't read much of Milligan & Allred's Force/Statix myself, but still, wasn't the whole point of that book that it's a superteam where EVERYBODY dies?
Yep. By the final issue, everybody is dead. Incidentally, two other members, Phat and Vivisector, eventually came out as gay.
Happened in Morrison's run on Doom Patrol. Everyone liked it, so it stuck.
And I always found it rather sweet, in a "love that knows no bounds" kind of way.
I like that site. And I'm sorry but Connor Hawke is gay and Ice is a lesbian.

Someone better tell Mia Dearden and Guy Gardner, then.

Given where we are, I can't believe no one's brought up that Tora is back.

As for Conner Hawke, I don't recall any implications about his sexuality either way in the Kevin Smith run. There was, I think, a bit where Ollie gave him some good-natured ribbing about his relative inexperience with women, to which Conner replied, "Yeah, just because a guy isn't you...", but that's about it.

And I don't buy him as asexual either. Occam's razor pretty clearly applies: He's just shy. Can't a guy be just shy anymore?

[Michael P]

Stupid boards.

[FeminineMystique]

I like that site. And I'm sorry but Connor Hawke is gay and Ice is a lesbian.

I don't really know a huge amount about Connor but when it comes to Ice..yes, yes she is. Or Bi, at least. The subtext between her and Fire was pretty obvious:biggrin:

[ScottyQuick]

And I don't buy him as asexual either. Occam's razor pretty clearly applies: He's just shy. Can't a guy be just shy anymore?

Can't a shy guy just be bi?

[K-DoG7p7]

Putting out a list with known factual errors to exaggerate your own agenda..

FOX NEWS!


PS: Connor Hawk is straight..
If he is not then Mia, Mia (yes two), Melanie and Lady Ren will be dissapointed
But atleast three of the four got to first base or further ...



LADY REN COUNTS!!

[K-DoG7p7]

I don't really know a huge amount about Connor but when it comes to Ice..yes, yes she is. Or Bi, at least. The subtext between her and Fire was pretty obvious:biggrin:

in what possible way?
because she hangs out with her bff all the time?

this goes kinda back to the whole point of women can't have female friends! unless they are fighting or lovers..


its Idiotic



(Fire is probabaly bi.. but thats based on her interaction with Icemaiden)

[FeminineMystique]

in what possible way?
because she hangs out with her bff all the time?

this goes kinda back to the whole point of women can't have female friends! unless they are fighting or lovers..


its Idiotic



(Fire is probabaly bi.. but thats based on her interaction with Icemaiden)

That wasn't what I meant darling. Maybe it's just me being a shipper fangirl but I've always just gotten a vibe off of Ice and Fire. I've always felt there was the potential there for them to be more than friends

[ScottyQuick]

Putting out a list with known factual errors to exaggerate your own agenda..

FOX NEWS!


PS: Connor Hawk is straight..
If he is not then Mia, Mia (yes two), Melanie and Lady Ren will be dissapointed
But atleast three of the four got to first base or further ...



LADY REN COUNTS!!

First part: What KNOWN factual errors? Some things are misleading, some things Moore didn't know, but he never put an out and out lie.

Second part:

Can't a shy guy just be bi?

[K-DoG7p7]

That wasn't what I meant darling. Maybe it's just me being a shipper fangirl but I've always just gotten a vibe off of Ice and Fire. I've always felt there was the potential there for them to be more than friends
From Fire Ohh yeah
From ice? not so much
From ICeMaiden.. ohh hell yeah.. but thats a diffrent story all together

[NickThompson]

That wasn't what I meant darling. Maybe it's just me being a shipper fangirl but I've always just gotten a vibe off of Ice and Fire. I've always felt there was the potential there for them to be more than friends
My knowledge of them basically consists of JLI V1-V3 and the two Formerly Known minis, so I've missed a bit, but for me their relationship feels to me like if they revealed that they were more than friends it'd make sense and wouldn't be out of nowhere, but there's nothing definite. I kindof saw them a bit like Booster and Beetle relationship-wise.

[FeminineMystique]

My knowledge of them basically consists of JLI V1-V3 and the two Formerly Known minis, so I've missed a bit, but for me their relationship feels to me like if they revealed that they were more than friends it'd make sense and wouldn't be out of nowhere, but there's nothing definite. I kindof saw them a bit like Booster and Beetle relationship-wise.

That's more or less my feelings about it

[Bouncing Boy]

Am I a nit-picker because what really bugs me is when the author several times says that the Legion of Super-Heroes takes place two thousand years in the future, when it actually takes place one thousand years in the future

[perry moore]

Hi there,

I don't know you at all, but if you're looking for something that involves a gay character that isn't, in my humble opinion, idiotic, I wrote a novel called HERO that debunks a lot of the stereotypes you would probably hate. Foremost, it's a book about an aspiring hero who happens to be gay, not a book about a gay superhero. Which I believe is an important distinction.

Anyone else agree?

Either way, I'd be very honored if you checked out the book, because I'd be interested in your opinion. You don't hold back on these boards, and I like strong opinions.

Thanks for considering it.

Perry Moore,
author of HERO

in what possible way?
because she hangs out with her bff all the time?

this goes kinda back to the whole point of women can't have female friends! unless they are fighting or lovers..


its Idiotic



(Fire is probabaly bi.. but thats based on her interaction with Icemaiden)

[perry moore]

Thanks for that post, ScottyQuick--what you said is accurate. In fact, I did and still do welcome people to correct any mistakes on the list and to add any and all new pertinent information.
Great name and picture by the way.

First part: What KNOWN factual errors? Some things are misleading, some things Moore didn't know, but he never put an out and out lie.

Second part: