Did Batman Blackest Night Inadvertently "Cure" Oracle

[WorstThingUS]

In Batman Blackest Night #2 we see Deadman possess Barbara Gordon's body and put her through some "Batgirl" paces, jumping, leaping, fighting, all of which is normally impossible for her. Now, Brainiac supposedly repaired the damage in his bid to take her body over, but Dr. Midnite announced that moving a toe was as good as it gets. Clearly not, because Deadman does not have the power to make a body do anything more than it could do on its on, so he couldn't make Barbara do any of those things, unless her body was capable of it to begin with.

DC will most likely never pursue this given the "edict" that Barbara Gordon can't walk again, but the door is wide open for anyone to pursue the idea that her injuries have been cured and her problem now is purely psychosomatic.

[DetectiveDupin]

You mean Blackest Night?

[catsmeow]

Maybe Deadman will snap her spine when he leaves her body...*crosses fingers!*

[Sean Walsh]

Yeah, this sounds like it's either a big screw-up on the part of a top & trusted DC writer these days (in that he got Deadman's character/abilities wrong in regards to a character who SHOULDN'T be able to do those things), or.........

......it's not a mistake, and you're onto something here. :wink:






(Regarding a psychosomatic issue, not the phrase "Darkest Night") :tongue:

[Kiryu]

edited

If they make it like the John Stewart bullshit Judd Winick pulled, I will literally vomit in the book that reveals it.

[Psavell2]

Yeah, I was kind of wondering what this might mean for her, if anything, but I'm still a little confused as to what we actually saw.

When Deadman first takes her body, he appears to be as fully capable as a pre- Killing Joke Barbara, but once they're momentarily clear of immediate danger, Jim has to carry her on his back even though, as of the close of that issue, it's still Deadman in there.

If Barbara's problem is indeed all in her mind, I guess atrophy could be used as an explanantion for the limited use of her legs here. However they could also just say "Oh yeah, by the way, Deadman is more powerful than previously believed."

[RonnieThunderbolts]

The dialogue makes it seem as though there is no use of her legs (Deadman mentioned Barbara keeping her upper body's muscles in shape, keeping them from atrophying, but mentions upper body specifically), and although she does seem to grab Jim and throw herself and her father through the window, we don't actually "see" her use her legs, and on the next page, while still possessed by Deadman, Jim is carrying her. I think the panel where she grabs Jim was unclear, while that panel with them going through the window seemed to be propelled by legs, combined with the rest of the issue I felt it seemed that she wasn't meant to have used her legs at all. I could be wrong, but I think this was an art error, and she was supposed to be using her upper body to propel the whole scene's action.

[Psavell2]

I think the panel where she grabs Jim was unclear, while that panel with them going through the window seemed to be propelled by legs, combined with the rest of the issue I felt it seemed that she wasn't meant to have used her legs at all. I could be wrong, but I think this was an art error, and she was supposed to be using her upper body to propel the whole scene's action.

Sounds good to me. I think that probably makes the most sense of anything, given that if they were going to cure Barbara any time soon they would have done it in The Cure.

[IvCNuB4]

Ronnie is right. You never see Deadman/Babs stand or kick anyone. It's all upper body movements...

[myme]

After freeing herself, she moves a distant of 3 to 4 meters to the window, grabs her dad with one hand on the fly, jumps through the upper half of the window (ca. 1.5m) and smashes a Black Lantern. You can't explain all this with upper body movements.

[DarkKnghtJared]

After freeing herself, she moves a distant of 3 to 4 meters to the window, grabs her dad with one hand on the fly, jumps through the upper half of the window (ca. 1.5m) and smashes a Black Lantern. You can't explain all this with upper body movements.

Maybe it's a case of art fail?

[invisiboy]

As far as I can tell, Deadman didn't use Babs' legs to escape. He used the punches he/she landed on the Black Lanterns to propel her body toward Jim and then out the window. Later on, Jim had to carry deadman/Babs to Red Robin's plane.

[Choppa]

Superboy Prime punched a wall...that's all you need to know

[Jae Namkyoung]

Superboy Prime punched a wall...that's all you need to know

HAHAHAHA! That made laugh thank you!

Oh and yeah, (XD) upper body strength + art fail! That's what I'm going with!

[Lovefloor]

I agree with you people that it was a bad writting + bad art case.
Because it really look like she is walking there. But the dialogs clearly lead to the non-walking conclusion.

Another of those mistakes that go to the pool of babs walking/not walking mockery, by DC.

[invisiboy]

I agree with you people that it was a bad writting + bad art case.
Because it really look like she is walking there. But the dialogs clearly lead to the non-walking conclusion.

Another of those mistakes that go to the pool of babs walking/not walking mockery, by DC.

Honestly, I thought the writing was pretty good. So was the art. But there was that one panel where legs were flying everywhere, and I was like, "Which legs are Babs'?"

[Lovefloor]

Honestly, I thought the writing was pretty good. So was the art. But there was that one panel where legs were flying everywhere, and I was like, "Which legs are Babs'?"

The incoherence, for me, is not on one panel... it is part of a history.
The mockery about babs is something so usual that i guess i am already softened by it.

You people probably remember at the end of the last issue of birds of prey there was a story "Oracle: Origins and Omens".
Scar(villain of blackest nights) was the narrator. Talking about babs life and frustrations.
Then the story moves about babs thinking about herself and her frustrations... and babs part end at her looking at her old uniform.
Then Scar come back as narrator. To say that it can feels babs angst, and is writing about babs on the Black Book.
The story ends with a phrase by Scar(main Villain of Blackest Nights): "Oh Yes, Barbara Gordon, Let there be war"

Do you people remember that?
Since the start of this blackest night... anything about that? Seriouisly, anything that justify that story about scar and Babs?(Or the fact that for some reason she is in the Black Book?)
Babs did not made anything worth of attention yet(she was rescued, by dead man)... big deal.

Fans, like me, probably think... "something important will happens to her".

But the truth is that it is probably just another empty "Chekhov’s Gun" of DC, mockery towards fans.

They keep the mockery on(many many many examples... along these years).

This pannel that she seems to walk is actually a very subtle one, usually they are more aggressive.

[IvCNuB4]

Wow, dude. Paranoid much ? You honestly believe that DC does that to mock their fans ? ? :biggrin:
If you see conspiracy like that in a freakin' comic book maybe you need a new hobby ....

[Lovefloor]

Wow, dude. Paranoid much ? You honestly believe that DC does that to mock their fans ? ? :biggrin:
If you see conspiracy like that in a freakin' comic book maybe you need a new hobby ....

Heh
Of all legacy characters problems. (4 Lanterns, 3 Flashes, 4 Robins, 4 Batgirls, 2 arrow, etc etc)

By far, Barbara Gordon is a very special case.
DC is, for 20 years, playing a "Oh God! She is going to walk... oh no, it didn´t happens yet" game.

I believe that mistakes happen, and i think it is reasonable to change plans, and also it is ok to adapt a few things to put up a story. But, when too many of these things happen on the same problem/question... well... for me, it is mockery.
It is like a lightning bolt that hit on the same spot... like 100 times.

If you want, i can list a few, and you tell me if i am paranoid.

[IvCNuB4]

Well, we do know now that way back when Didio had thought about reinstating Babs as Batgirl but later (luckily) changed his mind. Maybe that Origins and Omens was fore-shadowing the original DC plan. Or maybe whatever Scar was talking about just hasn't happened to Babs yet .....

[myme]

Well, we do know now that way back when Didio had thought about reinstating Babs as Batgirl but later (luckily) changed his mind.

Over there at the DC board (http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?messageID=2005565921�), phantomblot (former editor at DC) said it was Paul Levitz, not DD, who axed the return of the original Batgirl. (unluckily, the result is a mess)

[CYOTI]

Over there at the DC board (http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?messageID=2005565921�), phantomblot (former editor at DC) said it was Paul Levitz, not DD, who axed the return of the original Batgirl. (unluckily, the result a mess)
When did inker/artist=editor again?

[neverman]

Over there at the DC board (http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?messageID=2005565921�), phantomblot (former editor at DC) said it was Paul Levitz, not DD, who axed the return of the original Batgirl. (unluckily, the result is a mess)

U serious? Bummer though since DC seems intent on ruining Barbara as a character. I like both versions -- Oracle and Batgirl -- but they aren't *doing* anything with Oracle, so they should have brought Batgirl back. Aw well, maybe in another 20 years ......

[IvCNuB4]

When did inker/artist=editor again?


Paul Levitz was the President and Publisher of DC until just recently ...

[Captain Jim]

they aren't *doing* anything with Oracle,

She's co-starring in the new Batgirl book; how is that nothing?

[Lovefloor]

She's co-starring in the new Batgirl book; how is that nothing?

You are kind of right there...
It is not "nothing", it is worst than nothing.

Because reading these first 3 issues... and considering this Miller guy, and the book, i really wish they were doing nothing to the character instead of doing that.

By the way... you know that co-starring again IS a big frustration to Babs fans. It is another one for the list of mockery by DC over the character. And the list keep growing. Not only they take her out but also they put her as mentor(babysitter) of the Steph batgirl. (Lame attempt to convince babs fans to pick the book).
The character did that already... on BOP, on Cass run, and now again to Steph.
(At least BOP was good... and Cass run was not that bad either)

[The Cool Thatguy]

She's co-starring in the new Batgirl book; how is that nothing?

She went from her own successful book and important DCU character to being a supporting cast member in a third string book.

That's not being demoted at all *cough*

[CYOTI]

Clearly that demonstrates that the market could no longer support a Oracle/Barbara book.

[Captain Jim]

She went from her own successful book and important DCU character to being a supporting cast member in a third string book.

That's not being demoted at all *cough*

She didn't have her "own" book; she was co-starring with several characters in BOP vs. co-starring with one character in Batgirl. And BOP was not successful at the end; it was canceled because the sales sucked. And how is Batgirl a third-string book (other than the fact that you don't like it)? I'd wager the title will pull in more readers than BOP and I'm sure the sales are better.

And I never said anything about whether she was demoted or not. He claimed the character wasn't being used, which is clearly false.

[Lovefloor]

Clearly that demonstrates that the market could no longer support a Oracle/Barbara book.

No. It actually can mean many things.
Maybe the writer was not good. Maybe Barbara is not suposed to be Oracle. Maybe the character is supposed to be main. Maybe the characters pick was not good. Maybe DC screw up the title.
Many Many things. It got nothing to do with the character.



She didn't have her "own" book; she was co-starring with several characters in BOP vs. co-starring with one character in Batgirl. And BOP was not successful at the end; it was canceled because the sales sucked. And how is Batgirl a third-string book (other than the fact that you don't like it)? I'd wager the title will pull in more readers than BOP and I'm sure the sales are better.

And I never said anything about whether she was demoted or not. He claimed the character wasn't being used, which is clearly false.

127 issues. And when Gail was in the title it was always 30k+
They cancel BOP(potential 30k+), they cancel batgirl(potential 35-40k), they did not use barbara as batwoman, they kick cass character out... to put up this new Steph batgirl book.

(When actually BOP AND Batgirl were being published together. It was like 60k if you add)
Both BOP and Batgirl were cancel at the end, in a bad phase... but mainly because they change the writers. The stories quality went down. It is not about the characters... because when good writers were there, both books were quite succesful.

Let´s see how this new Batgirl book go.

[The Cool Thatguy]

She didn't have her "own" book; she was co-starring with several characters in BOP vs. co-starring with one character in Batgirl. And BOP was not successful at the end; it was canceled because the sales sucked. And how is Batgirl a third-string book (other than the fact that you don't like it)? I'd wager the title will pull in more readers than BOP and I'm sure the sales are better.

And I never said anything about whether she was demoted or not. He claimed the character wasn't being used, which is clearly false.

Yeah, DC constantly changing plans with regards to Babs had nothing at all to do with that. :tongue:

As for Batgirl, it's been a third string title for a long time, even when Cass was the star. Other titles will ignore what happens and she likely won't appear in any main Batbooks save Red Robin (if that). What makes you think Batgirl isn't a third string book?

[Will.S]

DC could have easily used this mini series and Deadman to cure her of her legs but it probably would have raised too many logical questions and they already changed their minds at the last minute to not make that happen.

[neverman]

She's co-starring in the new Batgirl book; how is that nothing?

Sorry there dude - I shoulda said "nothing interesting or worthy of the character".

[neverman]

Yeah, DC constantly changing plans with regards to Babs had nothing at all to do with that. :tongue:

As for Batgirl, it's been a third string title for a long time, even when Cass was the star. Other titles will ignore what happens and she likely won't appear in any main Batbooks save Red Robin (if that). What makes you think Batgirl isn't a third string book?

After reading the ravings of Didio a few weeks back, i'm convinced Birds was given the ax so Barbara could be batgirl again. DC changed horses and then Barbara had no home, so she gets to be the crippled Batgirl helping the new weak Batgirl... BIG step down, if u ask me!

[CYOTI]

Yeah, DC constantly changing plans with regards to Babs had nothing at all to do with that. :tongue:
You mean plans clearly formulated AFTER the book got axed? Or are you suggesting instead a case of retrocausality that somehow magically that plans they had yet formulated had instead pushed the numbers down into cancellation level.

[The Cool Thatguy]

You mean plans clearly formulated AFTER the book got axed? Or are you suggesting instead a case of retrocausality that somehow magically that plans they had yet formulated had instead pushed the numbers down into cancellation level.

No, the plans formed *while* the book was still ongoing

[neverman]

The Oracle series was supposed to cure Barbara, and she was gonna be the Batgirl again, and the Birds of Prey characters were supposed to be featured in the new Batgirl book. We see how well that turned out. ;-) DC canceled Birds of Prey to replace it with "Batgirl"... then the Oracle series was a big turkey...and now Huntress, Blackhawk and Misfit are MIA. All in all, DC royally screwed fans of that book and of those characters.

[CYOTI]

No, the plans formed *while* the book was still ongoing As in already cancelled, but with issues still shipping.

[neverman]

As in already cancelled, but with issues still shipping.

That's splitting hairs.

The fact of the matter is the Birds of Prey title was canceled to make Barbara into Batgirl again and have Huntresss, Infinity, Misfit, Manhunter and Blackhawk as her supporting cast.

That's it.

Sure, it was not a great seller, but it got the ax because the staple character was supposed to become Batgirl.

[The Cool Thatguy]

That's splitting hairs.

The fact of the matter is the Birds of Prey title was canceled to make Barbara into Batgirl again and have Huntresss, Infinity, Misfit, Manhunter and Blackhawk as her supporting cast.

That's it.

Sure, it was not a great seller, but it got the ax because the staple character was supposed to become Batgirl.

Uhh, where'd you hear that?

[neverman]

Uhh, where'd you hear that?

Part of it was anounced back when DC said a new Batgirl title was coming. It was announced that the Birds of Prey would be regularly featured in Batgirl. That was back when Dc was gonna go with Barbara. The rest was told in Didio's Batgirl column a few weeks ago.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Part of it was anounced back when DC said a new Batgirl title was coming. It was announced that the Birds of Prey would be regularly featured in Batgirl. That was back when Dc was gonna go with Barbara. The rest was told in Didio's Batgirl column a few weeks ago.

Really?

Ya know, the people who summerize those cons really oughta take a class or somethin'.

[Captain Jim]

It was announced that the Birds of Prey would be regularly featured in Batgirl.

I don't remember seeing that anywhere.

[neverman]

Really?

Ya know, the people who summerize those cons really oughta take a class or somethin'.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Can you please clarify it?

Several months ago when DC first announced the "Batgirl" comic along with all the the other new Batman books, they said "Birds of Prey' would be cancelled and the characters would be seen in "came off like a clue that Barbara was going to be batgirl again - which turned out to actually be the plan at that time.

[neverman]

I don't remember seeing that anywhere.

Sorry you missed it. But judgeing from your opinions on here you dont seem like the world's biggest Batgirl/Barbara fan. There are some older threads over at dccomics.com boards discussing what I mentioned. You can hunt for 'em if your interested.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Can you please clarify it?

Several months ago when DC first announced the "Batgirl" comic along with all the the other new Batman books, they said "Birds of Prey' would be cancelled and the characters would be seen in "came off like a clue that Barbara was going to be batgirl again - which turned out to actually be the plan at that time.

I presume that you heard that Manhunter et all would be Babs' supporting cast in her planned but aborted Batgirl at one of the conventions. I presumed that because this is the first time I've heard such a thing.

[invisiboy]

......deleted, sorry.....

[Captain Jim]

Sorry you missed it. But judgeing from your opinions on here you dont seem like the world's biggest Batgirl/Barbara fan. There are some older threads over at dccomics.com boards discussing what I mentioned. You can hunt for 'em if your interested.

Ok, I understand now. You mean back when the plan was for Babs to be Batgirl. I thought you meant in the Stephanie book; that's what confused me.

I like Barbara just fine, thank you. I've been reading her stories ever since she debuted.