Who or What were the Seven Dwarfs?

[jackolover]

From the Walt Disney story, after the Brothers Grimm, we came across these seven characters in the forest of Germany in the Middle Ages sometime. They were miners, and because of their small stature may have come from Baveria. These seven men may have been employees of the King, who was Snow Whites father, by the way, or, they were self employed and owners of their own mine.

Now with the appearance of the Kings daughter, (which they may or may not have realized), the dwarfs could have made Miss White a partner in their enterprise, in which case she became rich woman. Which brings into question, what was the political background to those times? We know the evil stepmother would have liked the hunter, (who she told to drag Miss White out into the forest, kill her, and bring back her heart for the Queen to boil and eat), to have carried out this vile sentence against the Kings daughter, so slaughtering royalty was a common practice. Would a fugitive Royal get preferential treatment by common people, (the dwarfs), if they stumbled into the lodgings of these seven miners? Who was this handsome prince that eventually showed up? Was he from a rival kingdom, and why didn't the King send out rescuers for his daughter after he surely found out she was missing? Were wars going on at the time, and this was why the evil Queen had the opportunity to kill the kings daughter?

[Michael P]

You're aware that Snow White is not based on historical events, right?

[jackolover]

You're aware that Snow White is not based on historical events, right?

Yes. This is purely a hypothetical exercise, but looking at the political situations of the time when it was written. I suggest that the Brothers Grimm fairytale was based on something similar happening around their time and adapted for their tale. I am trying to look at what were the similar situations of around that time that led to the fairytale. Would these characters have existed in one form or another, in the past, and would these kind of acts be carried out?

[Ontir]

You're aware that Snow White is not based on historical events, right?

LOL A question one should never have to ask or answer. :biggrin:

I think the dwarves were probably mining in secret. If the Queen knew about the mine, she'd have had troops all over it!

An interesting bit: The dwarves were 7 in the Disney film, because they needed a specific number, and because each was modeled upon Disney animators, often referred to as "the 7 Old Men." I've also heard that Dopey was based upon Disney himself.

[Michael P]

Yes. This is purely a hypothetical exercise, but looking at the political situations of the time when it was written. I suggest that the Brothers Grimm fairytale was based on something similar happening around their time and adapted for their tale. I am trying to look at what were the similar situations of around that time that led to the fairytale. Would these characters have existed in one form or another, in the past, and would these kind of acts be carried out?

The problem there being, the Brothers Grimm didn't write the story. They just collected already-extant folklore into a book.

And the answer to that last question is "No."

[SensorBoy]

Rule #1: Never bring up the Dwarves!

[jackolover]

LOL A question one should never have to ask or answer. :biggrin:

I think the dwarves were probably mining in secret. If the Queen knew about the mine, she'd have had troops all over it!

An interesting bit: The dwarves were 7 in the Disney film, because they needed a specific number, and because each was modeled upon Disney animators, often referred to as "the 7 Old Men." I've also heard that Dopey was based upon Disney himself.

Well, you took this discussion in a direction I never imagined. Thanks for that.

So If the Disney company had to make a specific number of Dwarfs to mirror the artists making the movie, maybe we can dispense with the number of characters and maybe hone it down to 3 brothers maybe, working on the same venture, and yes, I can imagine them probably being poaches digging for stuff on crown land, and they were trying to avoid the hunters patrolling the forest or lands. So if Miss White was living with poaches, then she was a renegade from her father, the King, and hunted as well. That could be why Miss White would have eventually conceded to marry someone from a rival kingdom.

[The Black Guardian]

There is a theory that the German version of this story was based on the real Margarete von Waldeck, who lived in the 16th century. There are, indeed, many parallels between her tragic story and Snow White's. If this is true, then the dwarves were actually children, which the town of Waldeck was known to employ as miners.

[jackolover]

There is a theory that the German version of this story was based on the real Margarete von Waldeck, who lived in the 16th century. There are, indeed, many parallels between her tragic story and Snow White's. If this is true, then the dwarves were actually children, which the town of Waldeck was known to employ as miners.

Thanks for this reference which I found in Wiki:

[Margarete von Waldeck (1533-1554)
The story of Snow White may have been intertwined with those of some historical figures. Scholars have uncovered parallels between the legendary Snow White and Margarete von Waldeck (1533-1554).[7] Like Snow White, Margarete was a strikingly attractive young woman. Like Snow White she had a problematic relationship with her stepmother. She grew up in the mining town of Waldeck where small children known as dwarfs worked in the mines. At 16, Margarete moved to Brussels. There, she attracted the romantic interest of several nobles, including Phillip II of Spain. Phillip II hoped to marry her because she was beautiful, but she became ill as a result of poisoning. Ruthless politics were a part of medieval court, where marriage to a powerful personage was often viewed as a way for a clan to gain allies to the detriment of rivals. Margarete died at the age of 21. The handwriting of her will, written shortly before her death, shows evidence of tremor. The perpetrator was never exposed but it could not have been her stepmother, who was already dead at the time. The poignant tale of a beautiful young woman whose life was cut short may have captured the popular imagination and provided inspiration for the folktale]

It is eerily similar, and does escribe another origin to the dwarfs. It would also make the 'dwarfs' a whole lot more sanitary than grown up men. I think I will go with this version.

[Ontir]

Well, you took this discussion in a direction I never imagined. Thanks for that.

So If the Disney company had to make a specific number of Dwarfs to mirror the artists making the movie, maybe we can dispense with the number of characters and maybe hone it down to 3 brothers maybe, working on the same venture, and yes, I can imagine them probably being poaches digging for stuff on crown land, and they were trying to avoid the hunters patrolling the forest or lands. So if Miss White was living with poaches, then she was a renegade from her father, the King, and hunted as well. That could be why Miss White would have eventually conceded to marry someone from a rival kingdom.

Snow White wasn't a renegade from her father. After his death, her evil-stepmother took over and ordered her death. The man assigned the task couldn't fulfill it, and took back a boar's heart to fool the queen. It was then, that she ran across the dwarfs.

[fireSTRIKE!]

they were the original Brotherhood of Evil Mutants...

[Dave Bennett]

An interesting bit: The dwarves were 7 in the Disney film, because they needed a specific number, and because each was modeled upon Disney animators, often referred to as "the 7 Old Men." I've also heard that Dopey was based upon Disney himself.
It would be interesting to know where you read that, as it has no basis in fact.

Disney's 'Nine Old Men' was a term that did not even come into usage before the 1950s.

The appearance and personalities of the dwarfs went through many revisions, none of them in any way being based on actual people working at the studio.

.

[Sighphi]

I thought the dwarves were something Disney added on to the Legend.

[jackolover]

Snow White wasn't a renegade from her father. After his death, her evil-stepmother took over and ordered her death. The man assigned the task couldn't fulfill it, and took back a boar's heart to fool the queen. It was then, that she ran across the dwarfs.

That whole episode is so vague though. Was the King away at wars so long, he didn't know what was going on in the castle? The story leaves a lot to have to assume about the relationships involved.

I like that originally it was the mother of Snow White that wanted to kill he, but it had to sanitized for a juvenile audience. Making the mother want to commit infanticide on a grown daughter, is a whole lot more bizarre than the Step Mother wanting to eat a stepdaughters heart. (I think?) There are some unsavory connotations to the Kings and Snow Whites relationship, in that case, and that's why the Queen wanted her daughter dead, maybe?

[Dave Bennett]

Was the King away at wars so long, he didn't know what was going on in the castle?

He said the King was dead . . that's what I always assumed, as well.

I like that originally it was the mother of Snow White that wanted to kill her, but it had to sanitized for a juvenile audience.

I don't think Snow White's mother was ever part of the tale -- I remember that the evil stepmother came into the marriage with her own daughter, Rose Red, and favored her to take the throne. The evil stepmother had to kill Snow White, who was next in the line of succession, so that her own daughter could rule after her.

. . . the Step Mother wanting to eat a stepdaughters heart.

Whoa!! It was never said she wanted to EAT the heart . . . having it brought to her was just a nice non-messy way to prove that Snow White was indeed dead!

[jackolover]

He said the King was dead . . that's what I always assumed, as well.

I didn't think the king was dead, but you may be right.



I don't think Snow White's mother was ever part of the tale -- I remember that the evil stepmother came into the marriage with her own daughter, Rose Red, and favored her to take the throne. The evil stepmother had to kill Snow White, who was next in the line of succession, so that her own daughter could rule after her.

Are you thinking of another story called Snow White and Rose Red. I thought they were two different stories. At least in the Disney movie there was no mention of a Rose Red.



Whoa!! It was never said she wanted to EAT the heart . . . having it brought to her was just a nice non-messy way to prove that Snow White was indeed dead!

I got this from reading the original script by the Grimm Brothers. It was a pretty full on version and was less sanitized.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

I believe the heart-eating was symbolic of the queen taking Snow White's purity and beauty into her own being. Basically about consuming it to better herself.

[jackolover]

I believe the heart-eating was symbolic of the queen taking Snow White's purity and beauty into her own being. Basically about consuming it to better herself.

I believe that was the case, too. The Queen could have just burnt the heart. But oh no. She wanted to imbibe the heart. This smacks of Africa Voodoo almost.

[The Black Guardian]

I don't think Snow White's mother was ever part of the tale -- I remember that the evil stepmother came into the marriage with her own daughter, Rose Red, and favored her to take the throne. The evil stepmother had to kill Snow White, who was next in the line of succession, so that her own daughter could rule after her.
Whoa... you've managed to conflate two different stories into a story that bares no resemblance to either. Snow White's mother (the original queen) begged for a beautiful daughter of fair skin, ebony hair, and ruby red lips. Her wish was granted, but the queen died during childbirth. Enter: the wicked stepmother/new queen, who had no other children and would probably kill her own daughter if she had one.

Snow White and Rose Red were full blood sisters and peasants, who ended up marrying princes at the end of that story. Their mother loved them both very much and didn't try to kill either of them. The story of Snow White and Rose Red involves a prince that was turned into a bear by an evil dwarf.
Whoa!! It was never said she wanted to EAT the heart . . . having it brought to her was just a nice non-messy way to prove that Snow White was indeed dead!
Not in the Disney version. The Brothers Grimm version.

[Dave Bennett]

Whoa... you've managed to conflate two different stories into a story that bares no resemblance to either.

Oh -- sorry about that. I was mashing up Fables and a graphic novel by Jeff Smith. :redface:

[jackolover]

I believe the heart-eating was symbolic of the queen taking Snow White's purity and beauty into her own being. Basically about consuming it to better herself.

Another interpretation is that it is a symbol of mothers that kill their daughters rather than show them the compassion enough to compliment their beauty. Daughters are the mirror of their mothers, and mothers see themselves as beautiful, except when placed next to their daughters, where the mothers age is pronounced.