View Full Version : A question about The Riddler
jka12002
10-12-2009, 11:29 AM
Me and my stepdad were watching Batman Forever. He keeps telling me that the Riddler is too jokey and sarcastic. I said "Isnt that how he is in the comics?"
He told me that the Riddler had more of a serious and evil tone to him.
I just want to know what is the diffrence between the "Frank Gorshin/Carrey style Riddler i grew up watching, and the comic version.
DetectiveDupin
10-12-2009, 11:32 AM
The Riddler has in recent years been portrayed as a detective, actually. To my knowledge, he has never been evil, at least on the level of the Joker or Two-face. He was the mastermind of Hush.
Mat001
10-12-2009, 01:35 PM
Frank Gorshin was much closer to the Riddler than Jim Carrey was. Jim Carrey was basically being himself playing the Riddler. Gorshin was spot on in his portrayal as the Riddler. In "Batman: The Animated Series", John Glover portrayed the Riddler in several episodes and that is also how the Riddler is in the comics. He does make sarcastic jokes from time to time, but he doesn't act like Jim Carrey. Not even after "Batman Forever" came out.
I recommend picking up Detective Comics #705-707, I believe it is and reading
"The Long Halloween" for a good portrayal of how the Riddler is. As well as Detective Comics Annual #7.
DetectiveDupin
10-12-2009, 01:40 PM
He is also featured in Catwoman: When In Rome.
Brack360
10-12-2009, 03:35 PM
Frank Gorshin, for all intents and purposes, really defined the Riddler for the first time. Before the TV show, the Riddler had only made three appearances in the comics, two in 1948 and the third not until 1965. The Riddler's three-piece suit and derby first appeared on the TV show before the comics because Gorshin disliked wearing the spandex.
In more recent decades, the Riddler has indeed become a more serious character, as have most of the Batman villains when compared with the versions on the old TV show. Jim Carrey's Riddler was more similar to Gorshin's than to the Riddler appearing in the comics at the time. In 2006, writer Paul Dini reinvented the Riddler as a semi-reformed private eye and rival of Batman's. This version appeared in Dini's Detective Comics run and is currently appearing in Gotham City Sirens.
Zembo
10-12-2009, 03:38 PM
Frank Gorshin was much closer to the Riddler than Jim Carrey was. Jim Carrey was basically being himself playing the Riddler. Gorshin was spot on in his portrayal as the Riddler. In "Batman: The Animated Series", John Glover portrayed the Riddler in several episodes and that is also how the Riddler is in the comics. He does make sarcastic jokes from time to time, but he doesn't act like Jim Carrey. Not even after "Batman Forever" came out.
And on a slight hijack, am I the only one who would have been curious to see Frank Gorshin play the Joker instead? He had a great giggle and intensity-enough that the other villians seemed slightly unnerved by him.
jka12002
10-13-2009, 02:53 PM
Thanks for the answers guys. I appreciate it.
Im guessing the gothic Riddler in "The Batman" is more true to the comics right?
Sn4tcH
10-13-2009, 03:17 PM
Thanks for the answers guys. I appreciate it.
Im guessing the gothic Riddler in "The Batman" is more true to the comics right?
NOOOOO!
Here watch these, they're from Batman The Animated Series, but are a couple good examples of how he is in the comics.
Riddler on B:TAS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8hreK2kL6g)
More Riddler (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYn9gbt_MBg)
JCAll
10-13-2009, 03:36 PM
Thanks for the answers guys. I appreciate it.
Im guessing the gothic Riddler in "The Batman" is more true to the comics right?
Well, he did go through a period a little like that for about a year, but everyone wrote it off as a bad idea.
If you have no other experiences with the character then yes, comic Riddler is a little like the Jim Carry version. He basically in the super villain business for the fun, the money, and the bragging rights you get for occasionally outsmarting Batman. But unlike Carry, comic Riddler isn't a gibbering buffoon.
Really, though, if you want to see the Riddler on video you have to look up an episode of the old Adam West TV series. Not only is that the performance that made the Riddler famous, but it's the one that every writer and actor since have based their portrayal on.
dupersuper
10-14-2009, 04:29 AM
have to look up an episode of the old Adam West TV series. Not only is that the performance that made the Riddler famous, but it's the one that every writer and actor since have based their portrayal on.
No offense it Gorshin, but few comic book writers have based The Riddler on him the past 20 or 30 years...
OverMaster
10-14-2009, 06:08 AM
No offense it Gorshin, but few comic book writers have based The Riddler on him the past 20 or 30 years...
To some degree, yes, they have. From the suit and hat to Gorshin's casual relaxed attitude about crime without being a monster on Modern Joker's level.
The riddles themselves have evolved a lot beyond those days, though.
Sn4tcH
10-14-2009, 08:01 AM
To some degree, yes, they have. From the suit and hat to Gorshin's casual relaxed attitude about crime without being a monster on Modern Joker's level.
The riddles themselves have evolved a lot beyond those days, though.
I always looked at Gorshin as Joker in a Riddler suit.
There are essentially two versions of the Riddler. One is manic, as portrayed by Frank Gorshin and Jim Carrey, who was really just playing Frank Gorshin. The other is the cerebral, collected Riddler, as portrayed in the Animated Series.
Depending on the editor and writer of the comics at each time, you can get one or the other.
I always looked at Gorshin as Joker in a Riddler suit.
Yep.
CYOTI
10-14-2009, 10:41 AM
Well the Riddler and Joker were interchangeable in the Adam West show.
The Joker
10-14-2009, 10:59 AM
There are essentially two versions of the Riddler. One is manic, as portrayed by Frank Gorshin and Jim Carrey, who was really just playing Frank Gorshin. The other is the cerebral, collected Riddler, as portrayed in the Animated Series.
Jim Carrey may have saw Gorshin as inspiration for his Riddler, but his performance is essentially just Jim Carrey playing Jim Carrey.
As far as Gorshin goes, he's the guy who really brought the Riddler from obscure villain, to arguably one of the best known villain's out of Batman's entire rogues gallery. And for that, any Riddler fan owes no end of thanks to Frank Gorshin.
Sn4tcH
10-14-2009, 01:49 PM
Jim Carrey may have saw Gorshin as inspiration for his Riddler, but his performance is essentially just Jim Carrey playing Jim Carrey.
I don't think there's much of a stretch between Jim Carrey being Jim Carrey, and Gorshin being the Riddler. And it may have just been the script, but there are definitely homages to Gorshin in the dialogue.
jka12002
10-14-2009, 02:52 PM
I always looked at Gorshin as Joker in a Riddler suit.
At least when i saw Gorshin in the suit, i saw the Riddler.
But when John Astin took over:
http://pics.livejournal.com/hipsterdad/pic/001qdea6
I saw Gomez Addams in a Riddler suit......uggggh....
Captain Jim
10-14-2009, 08:28 PM
Uh, you had to remind us of that? He was absolutely terrible in that role.
CYOTI
10-14-2009, 08:51 PM
I was never aware of this. Fascinating...
The Joker
10-14-2009, 08:53 PM
I don't think there's much of a stretch between Jim Carrey being Jim Carrey, and Gorshin being the Riddler. And it may have just been the script, but there are definitely homages to Gorshin in the dialogue.
Gorshin was 10 times more entertaining as the Riddler in my estimation. And though there are similarities, when Carrey's Riddler is goofing around in Batman Forever, which happens quite often, it's yeah, Jim Carrey being Jim Carrey.
However, that was likely intentional. Being that in 1995 after Ace Ventura, the Mask, and Dumb and Dumber, Jim Carrey was very much in popular demand and audiences wanted to see him do stuff like that anyways.
Infinity Man
10-14-2009, 09:25 PM
I've mentioned before how I like Cesar Romero's Joker. I also love Gorshin's Riddler. If it were not for those two, I think I would pretend that the Adam West Batman series never existed.
Retro315
10-14-2009, 09:30 PM
Riddler is a criminal, but not a killer. In his biggest appearances, he's never expected to actually kill Batman and Robin (after initial failures in the Golden Age). If they die, the game gets boring ...
To him, crime is a game, Batman is his opponent, cops, heist crews, and valuable objects are the game pieces.
So he's not goofy in the comics (well, sometimes he is, when he's used poorly). Rather, he retains some of the flamboyance - he's definitely a showboating media whore who wants to be infamous. But it's in that sort of Jesse James or John Dillinger way where he probably has as many fans as he has people clamoring for his arrest.
Riddler doesn't kill - some stories have hinted that he "may have" killed before, but there's no evidence he's ever killed anyone (for instance, in "Riddle Me That", it could've been the professor's son who killed him). He has robbed people at gunpoint before, but it seems unlikely he'd actually kill them - rather he's just getting their attention, or shooting at Batman as a distraction or way to escape.
He's talked several times over the years about Honor Among Thieves, and seems to stick with that, although he doesn't really hang out with hardcore gangster/killers like Two-Face, or crazies like Joker. Guys like Penguin though, who traffic information and stolen goods, Riddler has plenty of connections to.
He's also one of the best safe-crackers, escape artists, and planners in Batman's rogues gallery, and is probably the smartest (which is why he's so spot on as a detective, being good enough to even prove a thorn in Batman's side, professionally speaking).
I've mentioned before how I like Cesar Romero's Joker. I also love Gorshin's Riddler. If it were not for those two, I think I would pretend that the Adam West Batman series never existed.
Julie Newmar.
Catwoman.
Nuff said.
Infinity Man
10-14-2009, 10:21 PM
Julie Newmar.
Catwoman.
Nuff said.
Right, sorry, forgot about her. It has been a long time since I've seen the show, but I'm sorry it was the worst depiction of Batman I've ever seen. Thats not just Adam West's fault either. Where was the darkness, or the brooding? It just wasn't Batman for me.
Right, sorry, forgot about her. It has been a long time since I've seen the show, but I'm sorry it was the worst depiction of Batman I've ever seen. Thats not just Adam West's fault either. Where was the darkness, or the brooding? It just wasn't Batman for me.
It was the perfect adaptation of the 1950s campy Batman.
The camp and silliness were intentional.
Shadaloo
10-14-2009, 10:55 PM
I'll say this for the Batman Forever/Carrey depiction, the phrase "Riddle me this" and the presence of that gold question mark cane have certainly become popularized ever since. I haven't seen any episodes of the West series in ages, but I don't think those were present there...correct if wrong, however.
Sean Whitmore
10-14-2009, 11:15 PM
I agree with Joker and Jim.
Carrey was just playing Carrey with a slight nod to Gorshin.
And I wish I hadn't been reminded of the John Astin Riddler.
SEAN
Infinity Man
10-14-2009, 11:18 PM
It was the perfect adaptation of the 1950s campy Batman.
The camp and silliness were intentional.
I hope it was. They couldn't have been serious.
I hope it was. They couldn't have been serious.
No, they couldn't have been. It was intentional camp from the very beginning.
Whether or not you like it really hinges on whether or not you like camp.
OverMaster
10-15-2009, 06:18 AM
Julie Newmar.
Catwoman.
Nuff said.
I liked Gorshin's Riddler, Newmar's Catwoman and Meredith's Penguin. It was Romero's Joker who never clicked with me.
Sean Whitmore
10-15-2009, 06:23 AM
Gorshin, Newmar, Meredith, Romero...
Hell, it'd be simpler to list the cast members who weren't great!
I'll start. The chick who played Aunt Harriet.
SEAN
peagreenboy
10-15-2009, 07:49 AM
Whether or not you like it really hinges on whether or not you like camp.
When I was younger I hated the 60's Batman, as I felt the Dark Knight should be dark and mature. Now I'm older, I can enjoy it as being just another interpretation of the character. If you don't, it can always be ignored - the character's too strong to have just one version.
As for myself, I now love the original film! "Somedays you just can't get rid of a bomb!"
And Gorshin is the reason why the Riddler is my favourite rogue.
When I was younger I hated the 60's Batman, as I felt the Dark Knight should be dark and mature. Now I'm older, I can enjoy it as being just another interpretation of the character. If you don't, it can always be ignored - the character's too strong to have just one version.
As for myself, I now love the original film! "Somedays you just can't get rid of a bomb!"
And Gorshin is the reason why the Riddler is my favourite rogue.
Gosh Batman! The nobility of that almost-human porpoise!
Also, she was a one-shot, but I absolutely had a crush on Joan Collins' Siren when I was younger. She didn't need to put me in her spell!
The Joker
10-15-2009, 09:01 AM
Also, she was a one-shot, but I absolutely had a crush on Joan Collins' Siren when I was younger. She didn't need to put me in her spell!
Oh, I know what you mean. Joan Collins was a absolute beauty back then. Hell, I thought she looked great in the original Tales from the Crypt movie as well. You know the one where a deranged psychopath dressed as Santa Claus on Christmas Eve is attempting to get into her house, but she can't exactly call the cops since she's killed her husband and trying to make it look like an accident. :biggrin:
Also, I also quite liked Lee Meriwether as Catwoman in, Batman: The Movie. As well as Lee's appearance on the tv show where she invites Bruce into her apartment for "milk and cookies". :tongue:
OverMaster
10-15-2009, 11:19 AM
Hell, it'd be simpler to list the cast members who weren't great!
I'll start. The chick who played Aunt Harriet.
SEAN
Chief O'Hara. He's so bloody redundant. I can half-tolerate Generic Authority Figure Gordon, but O' Hara wasn't even funny at all, nor useful. A waste of space. Not to offend the actor, who I'm sure made his best of his role, but...
On the other hand, Alfred ruled as always, but that's the only one constant of the Batverse in all media.
RubberLotus
10-15-2009, 01:24 PM
Can someone enlighten me as to the various problems that are preventing the Adam West Batman from being on DVD?
jka12002
10-15-2009, 01:29 PM
Can someone enlighten me as to the various problems that are preventing the Adam West Batman from being on DVD?
The fans hate the Adam West Batman show. He is by far the worst Batman ever to grace a screen or TV. Ill take George Clooney over him anytime.
DetectiveDupin
10-15-2009, 02:52 PM
The fans hate the Adam West Batman show. He is by far the worst Batman ever to grace a screen or TV. Ill take George Clooney over him anytime.
Not true. As you can see, many fans here like it.
Sn4tcH
10-15-2009, 03:43 PM
Gotta say... I worship at the throne of Master Adam West.
Jaded Devil
10-15-2009, 04:43 PM
Can someone enlighten me as to the various problems that are preventing the Adam West Batman from being on DVD?
My understanding is that while WB owns the rights to Batman and the copyrights/trademarks, Fox owns the rights to the TV show itself. And I doubt WB would ever let Fox a) make money off of one of their biggest properties; and b) release a version of the character that could "damage" the way that property is viewed.
One popular rumor back during the whole Watchmen battle was that Fox would grant WB the rights to produce the Watchmen movie (which they arguably still held) in exchange for the rights to release the Batman show on DVD. Obviously, this was false.
Captain Jim
10-15-2009, 08:48 PM
It was the perfect adaptation of the 1950s campy Batman.
The camp and silliness were intentional.
Eh, the camp and silliness were intentional, alright. But it was actually inspired by the 1960's Batman, which wasn't really campy. In fact, none of the Batman comics were ever near as campy as the TV show.
Eh, the camp and silliness were intentional, alright. But it was actually inspired by the 1960's Batman, which wasn't really campy. In fact, none of the Batman comics were ever near as campy as the TV show.
Sure, but I'd argue that overamping the camp was the only way to make it work live-action, really.
Captain Jim
10-15-2009, 09:23 PM
In fact, what the producers said at the time was that they were afraid adults wouldn't take Batman seriously, so they made it "camp" so the kids would take it seriously, but the adults would laugh at it.
In fact, what the producers said at the time was that they were afraid adults wouldn't take Batman seriously, so they made it "camp" so the kids would take it seriously, but the adults would laugh at it.
And 25 years later, in TAS, we get the exact opposite method to do "all ages."
Look closely, kids, this is how your franchise becomes a marketing dynamo!
Captain Jim
10-15-2009, 09:29 PM
Well, after the first Batman movie, they learned that adults would take Batman seriously.
Monty_Cristo
10-15-2009, 09:37 PM
animated series. he's like that. Gorshin turned in a great performance. but the book character shouldn't be him or jim carrey, imo.
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