Batman & Robin #5 - no "hair" comments allowed

[Captain Jim]

I can't help but think there are some people on the forum who might like to discuss the actual story that appeared in this issue, rather than obsess about Jason's hair color. If so, this is the thread for you!

Any posts which mention Jason's hair color at all will be deleted or moved, at my digression. Seriously.

[Raharu]

What, people arguing about hair? Geez, I thought the whole Joker thing in the Sirens thread was silly.

But, anyway no hair talk, didn't see the Red Hood as Jason coming. It was kind of a obvious choice in retrospect I suppose, but I figured Morrison wouldn't use him

[Sn4tcH]

Like I said in the other thread. I just didn't even consider it was anyone, but Jason. If you look at RIP, all the stories that happen before and even after point to Hurt being the devil. Heck, it was even said in the dialogue. And then when he turned out to be the Devil, people were still shocked.

I dunno, Morrison just has a way of making us look the other way when the answers are told to us.

[Raharu]

I mostly didn't expect it because I don't think Morrison really used him or anything in his run before. I know they set him up for a role like this at the end of BFTC, but Morrison tends to do his own thing. I thought Daniels and Winnick would revisit before Morrison did

[Sn4tcH]

I can see that. I think the moment I saw the Red Hood holding guns I just assumed it was Jason, because he had been the Red Hood in the past, and had used guns as Batman in BftC.

[Vidocq]

But the Hair man... The hair! Batman Comics are meaingless... Ruined.. .Jason Todd has red hair *Sobs* Ok First and Last one. I Swear...:tongue:

I picked up this issue late, out of curiousity since I decided to wait for the trade for B&R. And what a great use of Jason Todd they gave, Also liked how Scarlet was narrating, good way to explore her character without taking the spotlight away, possibly setting up a future story where she gets a bigger role. Loved how Damian seemed to be hurt at looking at what someone he promised and failed to save. Nice change of pace from his usual ''You all suck, my dad was awesome ergo I'm awesome and you are just awesome because of my dad'' Talk. Also I liked Tan's Art much more than Quitely's. His style is more fit to a Batman book but versatile enough for it work in a book that is supposed to be colorful fun like this one.

I still want Bruce Back though. I know I'm just a minority on this, but I'm really not feeling it with Dick as Batman. To my surprise I am actually liking Damian as Robin. He seems so ill fitted for the role but he so effective and Morrison gives him an interesting dynamic with his surrondings, it's very fun.

[Godlike13]

Lets get this thread on track.

Honestly this one caught me by surprise. Now ive been loving this book but when I heard about this Red Hood arc and how obvious it was that it was Jason i wasn't that excited. I don't hate Todd or anything, i actually enjoyed Gatman, i just thought it was too simple. Probably why i was in denial about it being him. Man thank god i was wrong.

This interpretation of Todd really blew me away. Not only did Todd catch me be surprise but so did this assassins of assassins Flamingo. He looked bad ass, and interesting as hell.

I also enjoyed Robins first real defeat. I like Damian, a lot, but i think this was needed. He got caught by surprised not once but twice and cost the team big. It going to be interesting to see how Batman & Robin bounce back.

Its not all good though. IMO this was by far, artistically, the worst issue yet. May be even the worst ive seen from Tan. He really disappointed me here, especially after his first issue. He had a lot of characters looking ugly, especially their face and honestly it took away something.

I really hope his art is better next issue, and that Dick gives Todd another beat down. Because that's always fun.

[Sn4tcH]

Yeah, I am not digging Tan at all. I don't think I've ever read anything with him as artist before. But there's not detail, it's weird. Like even on frames that are basically close-ups you can't even see a persons eyes...

[DetectiveDupin]

Any ideas on who Oberon Sexton might be? I think he is Mangrove Pierce.

[SpideyZERO]

Since Morrison loves to show us the answer in plain sight but gets us to look at other way and overanalysis, I say Oberon Sexton is exactly who he is introduced as, just a normal novelist who happens to be disfigured :biggrin:

[DetectiveDupin]

I posted this in the other thread but this seems like a more suitable place to post this:

He was being sarcastic.

And if you notice Morrison's entire run has had a face theme... It started off with Joker getting shot in the face and him having a new one.....A man's face is skinned in the beginning of the CoH arc...Hurt later says he wore Mangrove Pierce's face... Honor Jackson says something about never forgetting a nice face... Jason has acne... Oberon Sexton was disfigured.....Flamingo eats people's faces... If you can help me remember anymore?

[dreyga2000]

I really like the Red Hood and Scarlet I hope they are used again... Scarlet especially...I really do hope they walk away from this in good shape...



Does any one have any theories or info on thid Domino Killer... Dick found another Domino among the slaugthered crime bosses... However we know that Jason was responsible for their deaths...

Did he tip Jason oe criminals where off the meetings where abouts (if so why??)... Or was the criminal carrying the Domino just because... Or even more likely did he sneak in sometime during the confrontation and plant the Domino...

Apparently the character is somehow connected to this new drug trade..

[NickFury90]

I posted this in the other thread but this seems like a more suitable place to post this:

He was being sarcastic.

And if you notice Morrison's entire run has had a face theme... It started off with Joker getting shot in the face and him having a new one.....A man's face is skinned in the beginning of the CoH arc...Hurt later says he wore Mangrove Pierce's face... Honor Jackson says something about never forgetting a nice face... Jason has acne... Oberon Sexton was disfigured.....Flamingo eats people's faces... If you can help me remember anymore?

Dr Pyg and his entire plan for giving everyone pig faces.

Also, not feeling that Tan artwork at all. BIG downgrade from the perfection that was the first three issue arc. C'mon Cameron Stewart!

[NickFury90]

Also, I don't know if this is against the rules here, but did anybody else immediately thought Red Hood was Rorschach when the mask came off? Thats gonna be the only voice I hear when I read his dialog now.

[Mundungus]

I love that Jason is always overcompensating for being the "shh shh" Robin.

I also love how he only ever gets five minutes of glory before getting punk'd. I did not expect him to get tagged in the head at the end there. I'm sure he's still alive, but his remaining dignity is shot. He can't even finish up a storyline dedicated to him before being taken down a notch.

In all seriousness, that's what I like about Jason Todd. I like that he has to overcompensate. I like that he doesn't want to be a villain, or even considered one. He's just stuck. Everyone, in their own way, got something good out of Bruce.

I know Dick won't be Batman forever, but I think Jason would make a great foil for his Batman beyond this arc.

[Teatime Brutality]

Does any one have any theories or info on thid Domino Killer...


I'm finding it really difficult to engage with that part of the story.

One of the many clever things about the "WHO IS THE BLACK GLOVE?" 'mystery' from the last part of the run was how it fooled most of us into thinking it was a detective story, while in fact it was a story about detection - asking how rational it is to expect the world to behave entirely rationally, whether or not there are, as Bruce puts it, "limits of reason" and, as Hurt puts it, "pieces that will never fit" within a logical mode of thought such as the dectective story.

It's brilliant. Bloody annoying, but brilliant. Using a form as popular as the detective story as a stand-in for all secular Enlightenment thought to ask if its humanist project can ever escape the idea that deep down there's something irrational and evil inside humanity, or whether that something will always put a ceiling on us. Did Batman really see fear in Hurt's eyes? Can science threaten the devil?

But the thing is...once "WHO IS THE BLACK GLOVE?" has pulled the rug out from under the reader with "Surprise! The clues and patterns were meaningless and the mystery villain was literally who everyone's been saying he is all along!", it's not easy for the reader to dust off thier deerstalkers and get involved with "WHO IS THE DOMINO KILLER?" straight after.

[Kiryu]

Yeah, I am not digging Tan at all. I don't think I've ever read anything with him as artist before. But there's not detail, it's weird. Like even on frames that are basically close-ups you can't even see a persons eyes...

I was kind of in love with Tan's art in issue #4 and I felt he upheld the basic Quitely designs of the book with a bit of a 90s edge to it. I really loved the Batman and Robin stuff on the roof top and the party at Wayne Manor.

But this issue he really fell flat to me. Scarlett's mask looks nothing like Quitely's and in fact looks different from panel to panel in issue #5. The action is a bit choppy and I miss the fluid and kinetic fight sequences Quitely brought to the table. I'm not really sure how Damian got completed destroyed by the taser, because it seems to me someone of his fighting skill would have no trouble blocking the attack like he did her throwing knife earlier. But I lay that on the art.

Everything else, I really dug. I love Jason's attitude with the Hyper-Marketing of his crime fighting. And it works meta-textually as well, considering that Batman and Robin isn't about the definitive Batman we were familiar with, it's become a brand, a symbol Dick has taken up. Within the book Dick is putting a grand performance for people to buy into, and Red Hood is marketing his own literal "brand" of justice in competition with it. Using the increased crime in Gotham that was created by the chaos that went down in Batman's absence to grab Batman's demographic so to speak and rally support for his method. It's cunning, clever, and so over the top, fitting for a guy who ran around with a domino mask under his red hood helmet and a Robin Costume under his street clothes.

Being faced with the "Punishment fitting the crime" coming back on him on Dick mentions is neat too. With Jason's increased brutality comes crime's response with greater brutality. It makes sense without suggesting that the criminals that came before were timid. But with Jason murdering criminals left and right it makes perfect sense that organized crime would send for the crazy psychopath killers, the wildcards, with more frequency and less hesitation.

I've ALWAYS been a fan of the Rogue Robin/Jason Todd concept. But I thought Under the Hood went south after Batman found out it was Jason. Thought Geoff's use was a little insane with the awful costume, Bruce Jones cockroach monster was awful, and did not care at all about Countdown and the forced stuff between him and Donna. But having him embrace his over the top nature here and come at crime the way he has, I dig it.

[Kiryu]

double post

[Kent H]

Oh here he comes
Watch out boy he'll chew you up
Oh here he comes
He's a face-eater
Oh here he comes
Watch out boy he'll chew you up
Oh here he comes
He's a face-eater!



dedicated to Hall & Oates

[Mikey Brown]

Yea not feelin the art. Looked rushed. Hes kind of an odd pick for artist from GM. Wouldve liked to see Ryan Sook on this arc.

[Crimson]

I posted this in the other thread but this seems like a more suitable place to post this:

He was being sarcastic.

And if you notice Morrison's entire run has had a face theme... It started off with Joker getting shot in the face and him having a new one.....A man's face is skinned in the beginning of the CoH arc...Hurt later says he wore Mangrove Pierce's face... Honor Jackson says something about never forgetting a nice face... Jason has acne... Oberon Sexton was disfigured.....Flamingo eats people's faces... If you can help me remember anymore?

The biggest one of them all, there is a different face under the cowl.

[Karl O'Neill]

My favourite part of this issue was Jason's helmet cracking apart and his comment *I'v been shot*.

I also love the arrival of the new villain FLAMINGO!

[DetectiveDupin]

The biggest one of them all, there is a different face under the cowl.

That fits a bit, but I have another idea about that. Morrison's entire run has had a replacement Batman theme- even copycats- and now we have a replacement. I feel as if one if the big themes in his story is that no one can ever really be Bruce Wayne's Batman.

[DetectiveDupin]

I really like the Red Hood and Scarlet I hope they are used again... Scarlet especially...I really do hope they walk away from this in good shape...



Does any one have any theories or info on thid Domino Killer... Dick found another Domino among the slaugthered crime bosses... However we know that Jason was responsible for their deaths...

Did he tip Jason oe criminals where off the meetings where abouts (if so why??)... Or was the criminal carrying the Domino just because... Or even more likely did he sneak in sometime during the confrontation and plant the Domino...

Apparently the character is somehow connected to this new drug trade..

The only idea I have concerning the Domino Killer is that all the Robins wear or wore Domino masks.

[FeminineMystique]

My favourite part of this issue was Jason's helmet cracking apart and his comment *I'v been shot*.

I also love the arrival of the new villain FLAMINGO!

He's gloriously screwed up. Like the bastard lovechild of Lecter and Pavi Largo, dressed in electric pink with a bad ass bike.

Also, notice how it's said the Mob drove him crazy? That's TWO stories in a row that have featured people being altered, turned into monsters. I'm telling you, somehow it's all connected. I'm wondering if El Penitente is Dr Hurt, as he's meant to be showing up again in this series?

[paulski]

Its not all good though. IMO this was by far, artistically, the worst issue yet. May be even the worst ive seen from Tan. He really disappointed me here, especially after his first issue. He had a lot of characters looking ugly, especially their face and honestly it took away something.

Yeah, I thought it was bordering on terrible myself, and that's coming from someone that enjoyed #4 as well as his recent GL issues. Can't quite work out what happened here. :confused:

And add me to the list of guys surprised that the Hood did indeed turn out to be Todd. I'm not sure why, but I was expecting someone else. I guess when it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck... it's a duck. I think, like some, I wasn't expecting Morrison to use the Todd character.

[paulski]

Any ideas on who Oberon Sexton might be? I think he is Mangrove Pierce.

I've got someone a bit more homicidal in mind. Don't know why but I think it might be the man who laughs.

[Captain Jim]

if you notice Morrison's entire run has had a face theme... It started off with Joker getting shot in the face and him having a new one.....A man's face is skinned in the beginning of the CoH arc...Hurt later says he wore Mangrove Pierce's face... Honor Jackson says something about never forgetting a nice face... Jason has acne... Oberon Sexton was disfigured.....Flamingo eats people's faces... If you can help me remember anymore?

Interesting observation. I hadn't noticed this.

[FeminineMystique]

I've got someone a bit more homicidal in mind. Don't know why but I think it might be the man who laughs.

I've been thinking that since he first showed up. The all covering outfit to hide the pale skin, the tinted glasses for those bloodshot green eyes. We know the Joker can do subtle and sneaky as well as random and psychotic. I could see it being him behind the mask

[DetectiveDupin]

I posted this in the other thread but this seems like a more suitable place to post this:

He was being sarcastic.

And if you notice Morrison's entire run has had a face theme... It started off with Joker getting shot in the face and him having a new one.....A man's face is skinned in the beginning of the CoH arc...Hurt later says he wore Mangrove Pierce's face... Honor Jackson says something about never forgetting a nice face... Jason has acne... Oberon Sexton was disfigured.....Flamingo eats people's faces... If you can help me remember anymore?

Found another one. Or remembered, rather. In #680 The Joker disfigures Le Bossu to "give him a face to match his appetites".

And the correct quote by Honor Jackson was "You have a kind face".

[DetectiveDupin]

I've got someone a bit more homicidal in mind. Don't know why but I think it might be the man who laughs.

Initially I suspected the Joker as well, but Sexton has had an established history as an author. That leaves a gaping hole in that idea. Both Pierce and the Joker have had lost lovers (if you accept TKJ as canon, that is)

[paulski]

Hell, the only reason I suspect Mr J is that apparently he's shortly to pop up in B&R. Maybe he already has... :tongue:

[Ninja Man-Bats]

The Crime Writer is interesting because all of the characters in Batman & Robin are hiding themselves or trying to change themselves. The Writer will definilty become important.

[DetectiveDupin]

I think it was said he'd show up around issue 9 or 10. I do know that Morrison said he'd like to see how Quitely draws him.

[SarcasmoBlaster]

The art was a step down yes, although I don't think it's quite as bad as people are making it out to be.

Other than that I loved the issue. I like that Morrison is creating a new rogues gallery for Dick Grayson Batman and I'd love to see Jason continue to be his foil.

[Munkiman]

You know, I wonder why Jason is sticking with the Red Hood identity for this - why choose the name of a criminal when you're trying to be Gotham's next hero?

Actually, can anyone tell me why Jason became the Red Hood in the first place, when he first came back?

The interesting thing about Jason Todd is that he's never had his own masked identity. He's been the new Robin, the new Red Hood, the new Nightwing, the new Batman. It says something about his character, I guess, but I haven't read enough of his stories to know exactly what. :P

[DetectiveDupin]

You know, I wonder why Jason is sticking with the Red Hood identity for this - why choose the name of a criminal when you're trying to be Gotham's next hero?

Actually, can anyone tell me why Jason became the Red Hood in the first place, when he first came back?

The interesting thing about Jason Todd is that he's never had his own masked identity. He's been the new Robin, the new Red Hood, the new Nightwing, the new Batman. It says something about his character, I guess, but I haven't read enough of his stories to know exactly what. :P

Because the Red Hood was the Joker's identity.

[shinjiro15]

Does any one have any theories or info on thid Domino

yeah i think he's dr. hurt. hurt did hide behind other names before - mangrove pierce and the black glove, plus we know hurt will appear again soon.

[Sn4tcH]

The art was a step down yes, although I don't think it's quite as bad as people are making it out to be.

Other than that I loved the issue. I like that Morrison is creating a new rogues gallery for Dick Grayson Batman and I'd love to see Jason continue to be his foil.

I don't know anyone who's saying it's straight up bad. Just a lot of people have a problem with the art.

[DetectiveDupin]

The art isn't that bad IMO.

[Teatime Brutality]

And if you notice Morrison's entire run has had a face theme...

This Batman and Robin run almost seems to be about zooming in through layers of a human head, parting them aside like veils.

In the first arc, we're all about masks.
Then, in the second arc we've gone down past those to look at faces.
If the Blackest Night connection is the obvious one, then the third arc'll be about skulls.

So expect the fourth arc to be about brains. :)

[DetectiveDupin]

This Batman and Robin run almost seems to be about zooming in through layers of a human head, parting them aside like veils.

In the first arc, we're all about masks.
Then, in the second arc we've gone down past those to look at faces.
If the Blackest Night connection is the obvious one, then the third arc'll be about skulls.

So expect the fourth arc to be about brains. :)

Well, it seems there's multiple themes in Morrison's arc. I'm interested in seeing where the Domino Killer concept goes, because as you know, all Robins have worn domino masks.

[Doug Side]

Well, it seems there's multiple themes in Morrison's arc. I'm interested in seeing where the Domino Killer concept goes, because as you know, all Robins have worn domino masks.

So does the riddler! @_@ OMGOMGOMGOMG IT WAS THE RIDDLER THE WHOLE TIME

nah

That is pretty interesting though, with the domino masks... I wonder if that's the connection.

[Will.S]

I usually don't quote other reviews but I thought Dan Phillips from IGN summed it up nicely when it came to Philip Tan's art:

"But the art of Tan remains without a doubt the most problematic aspect of this arc. I realize not many artists boast the effortless storytelling prowess of Quitely, but Tan seems uniquely inept at staging even the most straightforward of scenes in a visually compelling and coherent manner. Tan's biggest fault is that he has the annoying tendency to place his "camera" – if you will – at the most awkward angle possible, often utilizing close-ups when he should be pulling back to show us more of a scene. This story has a claustrophobic feel as a result, and it looks like characters are fighting for space on the page even when they're not engaged in combat. Add Tan's inconsistent anatomy, scratchy pencils, Jonathan Glapion's murky inks and Alex Sinclair's grimy colors on top of Tan's poor storytelling, and you've got one ugly comic book on your hands."

Although I do think that Sinclair's colors made the art a little more bearable. I don't know why out of all the artists DC have in their stable why they decided to go with Philip Tan but the sooner he's off the better.

Anyway, I enjoyed all the Jason and Scarlet stuff and how Morrison differentiated Jason with the umm.....head fur. I also like how Morrison is building more villains into Dick's rogues gallery that would suit his Batman better and make good use of his skills even if there's a certain degree of contrivance to them. I was wondering who this Flamingo was and while I was expecting someone eccentric given that name, I didn't think we'd see a character as violent and sadistic as this guy. I didn't think some of the gore there was necessary but compared to other stuff seen in the DCU it's certainly tame in comparison.

I'm still left wanting to know what Morrison plans to do with Dick during his civilian life because he doesn't seem to have much of one outside of filling in for Bruce Wayne in parties and relying on Lucius Fox to give him information which I guess fits but for some strange reason gives me de ja vu from the movies.

Looking forward to seeing how the next issue will be and how this crazy 3 way battle between Batman, Red Hood, and Flamingo will continue. So far I've still been enjoying the title although obviously not as much as I was when Quitely was on board and the story could use some more depth with regards to certain other elements of the characters.

7.5/10

[Desaad]

I'm finding it really difficult to engage with that part of the story.

One of the many clever things about the "WHO IS THE BLACK GLOVE?" 'mystery' from the last part of the run was how it fooled most of us into thinking it was a detective story, while in fact it was a story about detection - asking how rational it is to expect the world to behave entirely rationally, whether or not there are, as Bruce puts it, "limits of reason" and, as Hurt puts it, "pieces that will never fit" within a logical mode of thought such as the dectective story.

It's brilliant. Bloody annoying, but brilliant. Using a form as popular as the detective story as a stand-in for all secular Enlightenment thought to ask if its humanist project can ever escape the idea that deep down there's something irrational and evil inside humanity, or whether that something will always put a ceiling on us. Did Batman really see fear in Hurt's eyes? Can science threaten the devil?

But the thing is...once "WHO IS THE BLACK GLOVE?" has pulled the rug out from under the reader with "Surprise! The clues and patterns were meaningless and the mystery villain was literally who everyone's been saying he is all along!", it's not easy for the reader to dust off thier deerstalkers and get involved with "WHO IS THE DOMINO KILLER?" straight after.

That's a pretty brilliant distillation of "Who is the Black Glove" I think. There is a lot more to it, as you allude to, but I think you nailed one of the central conceits of the story perfectly there.

Cheers.

[Zeraze]

On the DC boards, one guy was speculating about Jason Todd inconsistencies (I swear I won't mention the coiffure) and wondered if maybe the Red Hood from this story arc isn't possibly from an alternate reality.

I don't know how far I'd personally want to take that theory, but it was still fresh in my mind when I started reading the domino discussion in this thread. Could the two sides of the domino beside each other represent two realities existing parallel to each other? Could this be the calling card from a villain hiding in a parallel universe? Could this, instead, be the first step on a trail that takes Dick and Damian to another Earth, somewhere they might, perhaps, find Bruce?

At the moment, I'm not seeing anything further to support this, I confess. I'm just throwing out whatever comes to mind to see if something sticks.

[Choppa]

On the DC boards, one guy was speculating about Jason Todd inconsistencies (I swear I won't mention the coiffure) and wondered if maybe the Red Hood from this story arc isn't possibly from an alternate reality.

I don't know how far I'd personally want to take that theory, but it was still fresh in my mind when I started reading the domino discussion in this thread. Could the two sides of the domino beside each other represent two realities existing parallel to each other? Could this be the calling card from a villain hiding in a parallel universe? Could this, instead, be the first step on a trail that takes Dick and Damian to another Earth, somewhere they might, perhaps, find Bruce?

At the moment, I'm not seeing anything further to support this, I confess. I'm just throwing out whatever comes to mind to see if something sticks.

It's certainly possible, but I personally doubt it. I'm pretty sure that Morrison is just doing his own thing with contintuity as he has been doing throughout his run.

[earl]

"wondered if maybe the Red Hood from this story arc isn't possibly from an alternate reality."


I was kind of thinking on the same lines as that might be a way to play on the multiple universes angle of the Multiversity story, as it seems Morrison plants these little threads in stories that pop up in others. It could possibly play into some of the ideas that Johns used with Power Girl in that story line in JSA with Earth2.

More I think about that scene with Jason Todd going over his tale in the mirror, it is more likely that Morrison liked that part of the original origin (the "red-headed" step child of the Robins) in the same way he liked the idea of Batman having a kid with Talia. The details around those stories isn't what Morrison wants as much as those threads he finds interesting.

[Retro315]

My theory on Oberon Sexton is that he's The Joker.

Hey, he seemed pretty leery when he mentioned that "another infamous Gotham criminal was the Red Hood first" ... and according to Lucius Fox, Oberon's backstory is ... "His face was horribly scarred by the men who killed his wife", which is a sort of a twisted interpretation of Joker's origin in The Killing Joke.

Add to that the fact Oberon is in head-to-toe black, with shades, so we can't see a fraction of a hint of what his skin or hair or eye color is? And the fact that he wrote a book called "MASKS of Evil" ...

But I'm prepared to be wrong on this one. It's pretty thin. Very thin.

[Sn4tcH]

It's pretty thin, but pretty obvious, and Morrison has a way of presenting us with the obvious, and the reader out right rejecting it because it is.

[SlayerHippy]

It's not Jason Todd running around as the Red Hood

[Sn4tcH]

It's not Jason Todd running around as the Red Hood

aaaaaand.... prove it.

[SlayerHippy]

aaaand.......I can't. Sorry, just a hunch....but I think time will prove me right....maybe

[DarkKnghtJared]

Any ideas on who Oberon Sexton might be? I think he is Mangrove Pierce.

I think Hurt has said he was Mangrove Pierce, buuuuuuuut he also said he was Thomas Wayne and the Devil, and I think only Wayne is less likely.

As for the issue...I also loved what they're doing with Jason. It was a stupifying moment when they showed Jason with his red hair (last time I'll mention it, I swear) and his parents being gymnists when I realized, "Morrison's said that everything that's ever been published in a Batman comic is in continuity, of course pre-crisis Jason would be involved somehow." I think you can somewhat effortlessly combine the two origins very well, too. It gives Jason a direction that he's kind-of lacked since Winnick left him post-IC, and really shapes him to be kind-of the anti-Dick, almost as much so as Joker is the anti-Bruce.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

and his parents being gymnists

That wasn't in any issue of Batman and Robin.

Also, as I've mentioned in a few other threads, Jason Todd has the street punk origin in the Morrison-written Last Rites. Combining that with no evidence whatsoever to indicate his parents were acrobats (not ever gymnasts) in the current continuity, there is really very little to indicate Morrison has done anything other than give the current Jason one sole attribute from the Pre-Crisis version. An attribute that must go unwritten. :)

[DarkKnghtJared]

That wasn't in any issue of Batman and Robin.

Also, as I've mentioned in a few other threads, Jason Todd has the street punk origin in the Morrison-written Last Rites. Combining that with no evidence whatsoever to indicate his parents were acrobats (not ever gymnasts) in the current continuity, there is really very little to indicate Morrison has done anything other than give the current Jason one sole attribute from the Pre-Crisis version. An attribute that must go unwritten. :)

Morrison himself has said that every Batman issue is in continuity in some form, which also includes the circus thing.

[Sn4tcH]

He already is an Anti-Dick Grayson, by being the Robin that went bad. He doesn't need the same origin story as well.

Edit: I was listening to iFanboy podcast and I heard a funny discussion about this issue.

Connor: The return of red-haired Jason Todd, which was the original Pre-Crisis Jason, which was an interesting development.

Josh: Yeah, I didn't get that. I mean, I knew that it was something you would explain to me.

Connor: Yeah, in the original, Jason Todd had two origins because they introduced him right before Crisis On Infinite Earth's. Then he got wiped out, then they re-introduced him again. Originally he was a Dick Grayson clone, he was the son of acrobats who were killed by Killer Croc. And they brought him in and he had red-hair, so they dyed it so he would look like Robin. And then they wiped him out in Crisis; came back as a "street tough!"

Josh: So, is this supposed to be that other Jason Todd?

Connor: Well, I don't know, Morrison's been using stuff from all eras of Batman.

Ron: He doesn't care...

Josh: I know, what I am wondering is, did this come out of 52? Is there another Jason Todd who looks NOTHING like the Jason Todd we've been looking at?

Connor: No, that's because Philip Tan is awful.

Josh: Right... oh... there ya go... Great Cover!!!

Ron: That's Frank Quitely...

[Sn4tcH]

Double Post. Sorry.

[Kasper Cole]

Like I said in the other thread. I just didn't even consider it was anyone, but Jason. If you look at RIP, all the stories that happen before and even after point to Hurt being the devil. Heck, it was even said in the dialogue. And then when he turned out to be the Devil, people were still shocked.

I dunno, Morrison just has a way of making us look the other way when the answers are told to us.

Ditto....I was HOPING it'd be someone else, but it was painfully obvious the moment the new Red Hood was announced who it was going to be under that thing.