Why is Dick so skeptical about Tim's theory on Bruce being alive?

[Tequilamokinbrd]

Ok, I understand Dick feeling the need to carry on in Bruce's absence, but it seems to me that in the pages of Red Robin & elsewhere, Dick's taken a very strange approach to handling Tim assertion that Bruce Wayne is alive somewhere. I just felt Dick suggesting that Tim see a therapist because he thinks Bruce is out there is insane concerning recent DCU history that they've both been front & center to witness.


Both Dick & Tim were present when Donna Troy & Conner Kent were killed, yet low & behold both of those people are walking around & breathing like nothing happened.


Tim was a wreck when he got the telephone call that his friend Bart Allen, who by the way had been aged to an adult at the time, had been killed. But guess who came strutting through the Titans door the other day alongside Conner? Bart, and not just Bart, but Bart restored to his natural age. Who brought these two to titans tower? Superman, someone who Tim as Robin attended a public memorial for.


Tim's girlfriend the Spoiler was believed to be dead by everyone including the world's greatest detective, yet lo & behold her "death" was nothing but an elaborate ruse.




When Nightwing headed the JLA during the Obsidian Age, he saw with his own eyes & touched Superman's remains. When the dead JLA'er eventually came back, Bruce says to Dick's face "I WAS dead" in response to Grayson saying it was bad thinking he was dead.



As we speak, Dick as Batman is in conflict with Jason Todd, who has returned from a certain and definitive death with no explaination that Dick's aware of(we know about SB Prime's punches, the characters don't).



Dick hinges much of his belief that Bruce is really gone on the fact that Superman was the one who found the remains & is obviously taking into account Superman's level of trustworthiness & his ability to ID a body on many levels(x-ray, molecular, etc).


At first that sounds sensible, but how'd Superman's eyewitness account work out with Oliver Queen who's another guy walking around just fine these days?




With all this recent history, not even getting into Hal Jordan, Diana, or countless others that have either been presumed dead or were dead dead, why doesn't Dick say something more like, "Ok Tim, I'll hold down Gotham with Damian, chase these leads down & report anything credible you find, we'll stay in contact..."



Dick's whole, "Oh Tim...you have to let go...you may need help" Attitude just doesn't jibe to me. Ditto with Cassie who did the same thing to him when she came to see him as Red Robin. Superboy came back while Robin was still Robin & despite that, Cassie gives him a whole, "We went through this with Conner" speech. Connor....y'know the whole who at that point defied the odds and came back to life after returning from a mission in the far future.




Tim Drake is the only non idiot running around here! Why can't anyone even conceive that Bruce could beat death?

[Mat001]

Donna was revived by the Titans of Myth, which is within their power. Conner was revived by Brainiac 5 using Kryptonian technology and fresh DNA strands. Bruce, however, is dead. There is a skeleton and no one to resurrect him. Everyone who has come back to life has done so because of an outside force. That's why Dick has a hard time believing Tim and thinks that he needs help.

[Jorriss]

Because Bruce is dead. Tim isn't claiming we can bring him back to life, he is claiming he never died, which is false. The difference is your citing examples of people who returned from death. Take Jason Todd, if Alfred were to claim Jason never died, hed be crazy. Even if Jason comes back, it doesn't change he died. Same thing here, if Tim claimed 'Bruce could come back,' or some variant, it'dbe different.

[durty dee]

Well.... the end of FC says different.

[Tequilamokinbrd]

Because Bruce is dead. Tim isn't claiming we can bring him back to life, he is claiming he never died, which is false. The difference is your citing examples of people who returned from death.


Stephanie Brown, The Spoiler was apparently beaten to death by the Black Mask. As it turned out, there was a body switch and a crazy cover up involving dr. Leslie Thompkins.


Stephanie is not someone who returned from death due to mystical circumstances, she is a person who was believed to be murdered when that wasn't the case & she was alive & well.




What does anyone on Earth truly know about how Darkseid's Omega beams function? especially considering that at the time Batman was hit, Darkseid was in a very different physical state than we're used to seeing him in.


I really don't see Tim as crazy for perhaps looking at it that way, and I just think he deserves the benefit of the doubt from Dick if he wants to persue an investigation. He shouldn't have to have a macho "Get out of my way" moment with Dick where they come to blows which is what happened when they finally met up.

[Jorriss]

Stephanie Brown, The Spoiler was apparently beaten to death by the Black Mask. As it turned out, there was a body switch and a crazy cover up involving dr. Leslie Thompkins.
True, there are circumstances of false death in comics, but there is no reason, at least presented, on why Bruce should be considered alive. All we've ever seen is Tim saying I know hes alive. They should just show us that is he at least trying to reason with other people.

[milosimpkin]

True, there are circumstances of false death in comics, but there is no reason, at least presented, on why Bruce should be considered alive. All we've ever seen is Tim saying I know hes alive. They should just show us that is he at least trying to reason with other people.

This is exactly the problem with Tim's claims. There is plenty of evidence to say that Bruce is dead. Tim has no evidence that he is alive. He just feels he is. The whole Bat family love to run on evidence. If Tim could provide one simple little scrap of that then I'm sure Dick will follow up on it just as much. At the moment, however, it simple looks like Tim's going through denial. Occam's razor and all that.

[DonC]

Plot device.

[the Hornet]

Ok, I understand Dick feeling the need to carry on in Bruce's absence, but it seems to me that in the pages of Red Robin & elsewhere, Dick's taken a very strange approach to handling Tim assertion that Bruce Wayne is alive somewhere. I just felt Dick suggesting that Tim see a therapist because he thinks Bruce is out there is insane concerning recent DCU history that they've both been front & center to witness.


Both Dick & Tim were present when Donna Troy & Conner Kent were killed, yet low & behold both of those people are walking around & breathing like nothing happened.


Tim was a wreck when he got the telephone call that his friend Bart Allen, who by the way had been aged to an adult at the time, had been killed. But guess who came strutting through the Titans door the other day alongside Conner? Bart, and not just Bart, but Bart restored to his natural age. Who brought these two to titans tower? Superman, someone who Tim as Robin attended a public memorial for.


Tim's girlfriend the Spoiler was believed to be dead by everyone including the world's greatest detective, yet lo & behold her "death" was nothing but an elaborate ruse.




When Nightwing headed the JLA during the Obsidian Age, he saw with his own eyes & touched Superman's remains. When the dead JLA'er eventually came back, Bruce says to Dick's face "I WAS dead" in response to Grayson saying it was bad thinking he was dead.



As we speak, Dick as Batman is in conflict with Jason Todd, who has returned from a certain and definitive death with no explaination that Dick's aware of(we know about SB Prime's punches, the characters don't).



Dick hinges much of his belief that Bruce is really gone on the fact that Superman was the one who found the remains & is obviously taking into account Superman's level of trustworthiness & his ability to ID a body on many levels(x-ray, molecular, etc).


At first that sounds sensible, but how'd Superman's eyewitness account work out with Oliver Queen who's another guy walking around just fine these days?




With all this recent history, not even getting into Hal Jordan, Diana, or countless others that have either been presumed dead or were dead dead, why doesn't Dick say something more like, "Ok Tim, I'll hold down Gotham with Damian, chase these leads down & report anything credible you find, we'll stay in contact..."



Dick's whole, "Oh Tim...you have to let go...you may need help" Attitude just doesn't jibe to me. Ditto with Cassie who did the same thing to him when she came to see him as Red Robin. Superboy came back while Robin was still Robin & despite that, Cassie gives him a whole, "We went through this with Conner" speech. Connor....y'know the whole who at that point defied the odds and came back to life after returning from a mission in the far future.




Tim Drake is the only non idiot running around here! Why can't anyone even conceive that Bruce could beat death?


Because the writers decided Tim would be the only one among the inner circle to believe this.

[WorstThingUS]

Because he received a body from none other than Superman himself, that's why.

[T Hedge Coke]

Because holding out desperate hope, against all evidence, in the face of confirmation and surety, is harder and more painful, than simply mourning and moving on? Without even considering if it's merely futile, that is. If Bruce isn't dead, from Grayson's perspective and position, there is not much he can do about it but soldier on in the old man's stead.

[Godlike13]

Because it not healthy. I know death is a revolving door in comics but the characters shouldn't think that tough. Death should be real to them otherwise it would be no fun.

[ryerye17]

Can we just say that Dickman is a prissy little Bat?

[Sizzle]

He only made it halfway through Final Crisis before his head hurt so much he had to quit reading it.

[Jake V]

As said earlier, Dick thinks Bruce is dead because there was a corpse, and it was recovered by Superman.

[Tequilamokinbrd]

Because he received a body from none other than Superman himself, that's why.


And like I already said, this isn't even the first time Superman was the #1 eyewitness to the death of a non-powered hero. Green Arrow was blown up right in front of him & Green Arrow is walking around these days living life.


Does Tim know that Ollie was brought back by Hal? Because of Hal not remembering being the Spectre, & Ollie not remembering any of heaven....are the heroes just going by what Jordan described doing as Parrallax? How much of that does he remember clearly & how much of it was explained, if it ever was at all, to Tim?


In his eyes, Green Arrow blew up, Superman saw it, & somehow or someway it turned out that Green Arrow wasn't dead.



I don't buy everyone just taking Superman's word like he's never been wrong or mistaken, heck, for a long time Superman wasn't even sure what happened to himself, and has been shown on panel doubting if he actually died or was just in some coma-like state.


I just think with all that's happened everyone should cut Tim a little slack, Plus didn't he JUST find the cave painting? I mean it's not like he's finding baseless clues, his investigation uncovered evidence that Bruce could be trapped in the far past and everyone just treats him like he's bonkers?

[Jake V]

There's a difference between thinking that a resurrection is possible and thinking that the death never happened.

[Jorriss]

I just think with all that's happened everyone should cut Tim a little slack, Plus didn't he JUST find the cave painting? I mean it's not like he's finding baseless clues, his investigation uncovered evidence that Bruce could be trapped in the far past and everyone just treats him like he's bonkers?
Which means there is a stronger case for Tim now, but before, the cave painting is meaningless. And let's look at this from a different perspective, why would the cave painting even suggest Bruce is trapt in time? They could just as logically assume at some other point Bruce may of been trapt in the past and he drew the symbol. That makes more sense than, the body we found isn't Bruce's or its his body but his essence got trapt in time, or something along those lines. In reality, we know what it means, but that symbol doesn't really defend Tim.

[Tequilamokinbrd]

As said earlier, Dick thinks Bruce is dead because there was a corpse, and it was recovered by Superman.


A corpse means nothing. Superman, Superboy, Kid Flash, Jericho, Jason Todd, Donna Troy & countless others had corpses that were verified to be authentic and they came back anyway.



Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person that read The Obsidian Age or that maybe I imagined it. Dick didn't give up on the chance of the JLA being alive despite seeing & touching Superman's remains himself.

What makes seeing a corpse this time different from seeing a corpse back then?

[Tequilamokinbrd]

And let's look at this from a different perspective, why would the cave painting even suggest Bruce is trapt in time? They could just as logically assume at some other point Bruce may of been trapt in the past and he drew the symbol. That makes more sense than, the body we found isn't Bruce's or its his body but his essence got trapt in time, or something along those lines. In reality, we know what it means, but that symbol doesn't really defend Tim.


It doesn't prove him to be correct outright, but it creates reasonable doubt that Bruce is dead.

Bruce has/had all his missions & adventures filed away(on the batcomputer, the black casebook, & other places), Tim could certainly compare that drawing to others Bruce has done, figure an estimate on when it was drawn, and compare that to any missions Bruce has been on where he ended up time travelling.


Sure he's been to the past, I just brought up the Obsidian Age, but has he ever been to prehistoric times?



Aquaman did the exact same thing in The Obsidian Age( I hate to keep bringing it up so much, but it fits here). He carved the words "JLA" at the bottom of the ocean as a signal to the league, the league found it, dated the carvings, and deduced that Aquaman could possibly be trapped in time and that they had to go get him.


Not only all that, but Superman, the one everyone is saying Dick should trust because he was the one to find Bruce said(I'm paraphrasing, ish isn't in front of me),


"Until today I was sure that Aquaman fell in battle, I watched him die, but if there's a chance he's in the past we can find him and we can bring him back"




And guess what? They found him.


How is this different?

[Doc Goblin]

Dick is behaving perfectly reasonable about Bruce. There's a body. Superman told him what happened. There is no reason for him to believe that Bruce is anything but dead.

The only one acting like a fool is Tim, because the same goes for him. Unless I missed something, he had no reason to believe Bruce is alive. Nothing tangible started this quest he's on. What we've been seeing in Red Robin is pretty much Tim cracking up. He's not being rational. He just doesn't want to believe Bruce is dead. Just because he is now finding some evidence to support that and we know Bruce is something other than dead does not vindicate Tim. That's just him lucking out. Good for him. He's found something to support his nervous breakdown.

Maybe there is more to why Tim believes Bruce is alive that we'll find out about later on. But for right now, Tim is the one acting irrationally here and Dick... Alfred... Stephanie, etc are perfectly justified in reacting to him like he's being a nut.

The fact that others come back from the dead is meaningless. More often than not, death still exists. And in light of that, it's one thing to hope for a resurrection as heroes do for J'onn J'onzz but a whole other thing to wholeheartedly believe that someone can't be dead for no reason. One is being optimistic, the other is being deluded.

[Jake V]

While yeah, superheroes know that people who died can be resurrected, why don't they just resurrect everyone who ever died? What makes one life more valuable than any others?

They know it isn't their place to directly interfere with death.

[Freakzeek]

Search Your feelings you know it to be true


http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww318/Freakzeek_2009/Batmanpast.jpg

[DetectiveDupin]

Because they need to give Tim a reason to be relevant.

[Vidocq]

Because there was absolutely no shread of evidence to suggest that Bruce might be alive, and citing people who have ressurected from the dead means nothing in this case. If he were saying ''Let's ressurect him'', that would be sane... In comics anyway. His delusions just happen to be right this time.

[M. Bushbug]

Where was this cave painting found and what message did it have?

[DarkKnghtJared]

Because Tim doesn't take death that well, even by Bat-Family standards. His best friend died and he spent a year trying to clone him. Couple that with Bruce's skeleton being shown to him by Superman himself, it's more than reasonable for Dick to believe that Tim is in denial that his foster father has passed away.

[Jake V]

Where was this cave painting found and what message did it have?
It was the cave painting that Bruce left at the end of Final Crisis. Just the bat symbol on a cave wall.

[SpideyZERO]

I haven't read Red Robin yet, but is this what's it about? One day Tim just went crazy and assumed Bruce is alive without any evidences, and went travelling the world for it?

[M. Bushbug]

It was the cave painting that Bruce left at the end of Final Crisis. Just the bat symbol on a cave wall.Bat symbol.

ok...

where is this cave wall?

[Jake V]

Bat symbol.

ok...

where is this cave wall?
Iraq, I think.

It was at a dig site that I believe Ra's Al Ghul uncovered.

[Mundungus]

I chalk it up to dramatic effect and desire for inter-character conflict.

I agree with all the points being said here. The problem is if the heroes themselves believed death was preventable or "curable" all the time, then death really would be cheap.

So both we and the characters have to suspend disbelief that every once in awhile.

[WorstThingUS]

And like I already said, this isn't even the first time Superman was the #1 eyewitness to the death of a non-powered hero. Green Arrow was blown up right in front of him & Green Arrow is walking around these days living life.



But how many people were insisting Ollie was still alive after that? Exactly.

[Mat001]

But how many people were insisting Ollie was still alive after that? Exactly.

Yep. Everyone who has died was actually dead. They were brought back by outside forces, as I said.

-Superman was dead as a doornail. He was revived by the Eradicator and his soul returned to his body by Jonathan Kent.

-Wonder Woman was dead and it was very apparent Diana was gone. She came back because of a falling out with the Gods which resulted in her resurrection.

-Oliver Queen was completely dead. Hal Jordan later confirmed that he brought Ollie back before he went to his own death.

-Hal Jordan was dead and his body was left in the sun. His soul became merged with the Spectre and he became the new host. When he was separated, he was revived thanks to Ganthent.

-Jason Todd was dead. Bruce saw the body and buried it. Later he found out how Jason came back from Jason's own account.

-Bart Allen was beaten to death. Everyone saw the body as it was buried. Brainiac 5 told everyone about how he saved Bart's soul and was able to not only bring him back to life, but restore him to his proper age.

-Barry Allen's resurrection story is ongoing. But he's been revived by an outside force as well.

Take note that everyone I mentioned was clearly dead, before someone/something else did the hocus pocus. Right now, there's a body found at Darkseid's feet. Superman has fought Darkseid the most. He's known the Omega Effect was always used to kill people that angered Darkseid. What he doesn't know is the Omega Sanction was used instead and as a result of it, Bruce is alive. The only ones who could tell him that are on Earth-51 and Rip Hunter. So that leaves out any hope that he's alive.

The difference here is that there is no evidence that he is alive, outside of what Tim just found. But before he found it, there was nothing except a dead body. No one was showing up to claim that he's alive in the past. No one who was willing to perform a resurrection spell.

[Sean Walsh]

Because he received a body from none other than Superman himself, that's why.

This.

And unlike Conner, Bart, Donna and other superheroes.......Bruce Wayne is a normal guy. No superpowers, no alien presence, no divinity.....

And then there's the whole nature of the Omega Beams, which perhaps Bruce (and thus Tim) was knowledgeable of, that gives Tim his justification for doubting Bruce is really dead.

[CMBMOOL]

My word, I've been asking myself the same question for months on end, since Dick took the mantel and I still ask this question to this day.

I mean this is the Batman, the man who evades Death traps on a nightly bases. There's always a slim chance of Bruce being alive, it just that Dick, Alfred and the rest of the DCU just forgot it. :mad:

[Jake V]

My word, I've been asking myself the same question for months on end, since Dick took the mantel and I still ask this question to this day.

I mean this is the Batman, the man who evades Death traps on a nightly bases. There's always a slim chance of Bruce being alive, it just that Dick, Alfred and the rest of the DCU just forgot it. :mad:

You didn't read any of this thread, did you?

[CMBMOOL]

You didn't read any of this thread, did you?

I did, and I know why Dick doesn't believe in Tim, it's because of Grant Freakin Morrison and his hold on the DCU, when it's concern of the Bat-titles and the multiverse.

I mean even in the pages of Booster Gold, even the title character didn't know that Bruce is alive in some form, and that is thanks to Rip Hunter.

Damn it, this is one of the Main reasons I'm not reading into the Bat-family titles right now. :evilangry:

[Jake V]

I did, and I know why Dick doesn't believe in Tim, it's because of Grant Freakin Morrison and his hold on the DCU, when it's concern of the Bat-titles and the multiverse.

I mean even in the pages of Booster Gold, even the title character didn't know that Bruce is alive in some form, and that is thanks to Rip Hunter.

Damn it, this is one of the Main reasons I'm not reading into the Bat-family titles right now. :evilangry:

No, it's because there was a corpse. Whatever happens in Booster Gold isn't relevant.

[CMBMOOL]

No, it's because there was a corpse. Whatever happens in Booster Gold isn't relevant.

Like the previous poster stated about Dick's moments in the Obsidan age arc of the JLA. :frown:

Also Booster does matter, since he's tied to the timeline of the DCU and knows of the Multiverse.

[matthewaos]

I'm not following Robin, but I guess Tim believes that Bruce found a way. Though saying he never died, and saying he found a way is way different. And either way, Bruce is dead right now. He is not back, and no one sais that the Bruce that will come back will be the Bruce that the skeleton belongs too. I mean, the captain marvel who returned during the marvel civil war was not the one that died.

[Sn4tcH]

@matthewaos, Tim found Bruce's cave painting from Final Crisis.

[matthewaos]

@matthewaos, Tim found Bruce's cave painting from Final Crisis.

OK, I didn't know that. So if he found that, what the rest of the bat crew said? Though this still does not prove that he is alive. I mean if he is alive somewhere in the past, he should be close to dust in the present.

[nepenthes]

OK, I didn't know that. So if he found that, what the rest of the bat crew said? Though this still does not prove that he is alive. I mean if he is alive somewhere in the past, he should be close to dust in the present.

he hasn't had a chance to tell them yet, he was stabbed in guts and left bleeding out in the desert. it was only last issue

[Tequilamokinbrd]

-Jason Todd was dead. Bruce saw the body and buried it. Later he found out how Jason came back from Jason's own account.



Not true. The Superboy-Prime explanation of his ressurrection we saw in the Batman Annual was for the audience, Batman was never told how Jason came back. As far as the Bat-family knows, The Joker beat & blew Jason up killing him, Batman recovered the body, buried it, and somehow Jason managed to survive all of that & crawl out of his own grave.


The stuff we saw in that ish is like Wolverine's Origin from Origin, just because we were seeing it for the first time didn't mean he had any idea about it(It took House of M for him to know).



How can Dick fight Jason Todd one minute, just giving blind faith to the fact that he's returned from the dead & not even asking(aloud or internally) just how that came to pass, and the next minute treat Tim like he's crazy for even suggesting people can survive death.


Think about it, Before he died Jason may have been a wreckless jerk, but he wasn't a mass murderer, Why is Dick even so positive it's 100% the same guy? if he can take that leap, what makes it so hard to say, "I think you're wrong Tim, I think he's gone. But you have my respect & if you feel you have to follow this lead up you have my blessing".

[Tequilamokinbrd]

But how many people were insisting Ollie was still alive after that? Exactly.


No one, but what about When Aquaman "died" and left a message back in time just like Bruce did?


Not only did Superman insist he was alive based on this, but Superman in doing so went back on his original assertion that Arthur was dead & was so positive of the reliability of his hunch that he brought the entire Justice League back in time to find him.


No one said Superman was crazy & that he needed to let Arthur go, they said "Well, Superman I guess it's back in time with us!" and followed him with no questions(Batman was the only one that even grumbled & he went).



Tim's not asking to send an entire team back in time for a potentially dangerous mission like Superman did, he just wants to follow up on some leads by himself based on a hunch he's had, and as he stated he's followed a gut feeling like that before...when he figured out who Bruce was in the first place & we all know how that worked out for him.

[Ninja Man-Bats]

he's skeptical because that's not what the storym is about right now. it's about Dick Grayson trying to be Batman. leave that mystery to Tim Drake, he's the detective. dick has to just be about the replacement for now

[carabas]

No one, but what about When Aquaman "died" and left a message back in time just like Bruce did?Just because it happened once it should not be standard operating procedure to just let life grind to a halt and start scouring the distant past looking for the guy whose corps you're looing at.

[Choppa]

Why do people try to find pointless in-comic answers when the truth is that DC gave Morrison free reign to do whatever he wanted with Bruce and his death and didn't let anyone in on what his plan was. Now DC has to basically forget those "details" of Final Crisis and just move on with the premise that Bruce is in fact dead and we won't get any more answers until he returns.

[carabas]

Well, considering that the details,as far as anybody in the DCU knows anyway, are that Darkseid zapped Batman and left a smoldering corpse, I don't see anything wrong with this premise.

[Mat001]

No one, but what about When Aquaman "died" and left a message back in time just like Bruce did?


Not only did Superman insist he was alive based on this, but Superman in doing so went back on his original assertion that Arthur was dead & was so positive of the reliability of his hunch that he brought the entire Justice League back in time to find him.


No one said Superman was crazy & that he needed to let Arthur go, they said "Well, Superman I guess it's back in time with us!" and followed him with no questions(Batman was the only one that even grumbled & he went).



Tim's not asking to send an entire team back in time for a potentially dangerous mission like Superman did, he just wants to follow up on some leads by himself based on a hunch he's had, and as he stated he's followed a gut feeling like that before...when he figured out who Bruce was in the first place & we all know how that worked out for him.

Again, Arthur left a message to get the JLA's attention. Bruce has done that as well, since he was involved in "The Obsidan Age". However, prior to Red Robin #4, no one has seen said message. They have seen his corpse and said he's dead. Just as they know that J'onn J'onzz is dead and gone until someone revives him. I can't believe how hard you people are making this. Before Arthur's message was found, everyone in the JLA believed he was dead. Go back and re-read the JLA, Titan and Superman books. It was made clear that he was dead and gone. Then they found the message which lead to the team deciding that he was possibly alive and thus were proven right. All we have here is Tim Drake going on a belief which comes across as troubling because of his actions following his father's death, as well as Superboy's. The only difference is that Tim's faith was well placed as he found the message. But Dick doesn't know about it. He and Tim worked together against the Black Lanterns, before Tim left Gotham. They haven't had a chance to compare notes. When Tim recovers from his injuries and gets the chance, then he'll get in touch with Dick.

[Yawn]

I chalk it up to dramatic effect and desire for inter-character conflict.

I agree with all the points being said here. The problem is if the heroes themselves believed death was preventable or "curable" all the time, then death really would be cheap.

So both we and the characters have to suspend disbelief that every once in awhile.

Agree,well put.