Anyone else disappointed in 'Batman' since the re-launch?

[Red_Knight]

Hey everyone,

please note that I am not writing this to bash Judd Winick. I haven't read a whole lot by the guy, so I'm not prejudiced either way; -- I did read (and liked) his last run on Batman, so I was pretty happy when his return to the book became public knowledge.

Now, the minute B&R with Morrison at the helm was announced, I predicted that it would be the defacto flagship title for the following year at least. I was fine with that, too. As a result, my expectations for the Batman title weren't earth-shattering. I was expecting more than what we are getting, though.

BftC made the Batverse a much more coherent and interconnected place, IMO. B&R is the backbone of the franchise, with Morrison driving the overall story forward; Red Robin deals with Tim's quest for Bruce; SOG and GS basically pick up where Dini's 'Tec-run ended, etc. Based on the solicits, I figured that Batman would focus on the Gotham gang wars and Dick's crusade against the assorted mob bosses. Technically, that prediction has come true. Unfortunately, I have to say I'm not at all impressed, because nothing is happening.

I really enjoyed Winick's first issue. It had some nice, touching moments, firmly established the new status quo and served as a neat little epilogue to BftC. The problem is that the book has never moved on since then; -- it seems like every issue is about the mobsters one-upping each other while Batman is distracted fighting interchangable henchmen in battles of no consequence. I thought we'd see the mystery of the new Black Mask progress. At the very least, I thought we'd see him carve up Gotham. Instead, he's sitting around and bascially messing with everyone's head, -- which would be fine if his games actually led to anything! Unfortunately, it seems like Mask's grand plan pretty much amounts to scaring everyone into obedience using his army of mind-controlled Arkham inmates.

In B&R, we've been introduced to 4 interesting new characters, all of which are likely to factor into future arcs; we have witnessed the debut of the new and improved Red Hood; and we are apparently headed for a major revealation regarding Bruce's fate. Over in Batman, we have the Black Mask plotting endlessly while Dick is having visions of Two-Face in a twisted Batman outfit. Oh, and next month, we'll get to see Dick take on what looks like Spawn's kid brother. Awesome. :mad:

I realize comparing B&R and Batman is a bit unfair, since Morrison can obviously "get away" with much more than Winick, but I daresay a book featuring a brand-new Batman, a brand-new Black Mask, and a slew of Arkham escapees could be much more exciting than the printed sleeping meds we are getting right now. At this point, I'm going to check out Tony Daniels' first issue to see whether he might pick up the pace. If that doesn't happen, I'll be dropping Batman for the time being.

What are your thoughts? Are my standards too high, or is anyone sharing my feelings on this one?

[Sn4tcH]

Yes, absolutely. I am interested with the current story involving Two-Face, simply because I like the character. But otherwise, I am simply bored by "Batman".

[enediol]

I'm not disappointed about spending less money since I've dumped all the batbooks save for Batman & Robin and Detective Comics.

[Godlike13]

His run was ok at first but now he's stretching it too far. In ways its becoming forced. We get it Dick's new at this, but he's not that new. Maybe he should have done a shorter arc or something.

Daniel is up next and im interested in seeing what he can do. Hopefully he'll some what pick up where BFTC left off, and maybe with a little more freedom to do his story. Also im enjoying Blackest Night: Batman quite a bit, so i wouldn't mind seeing Tomasi have a shot on Batman.

[Captain Jim]

I dunno, it's far from my favorite bat-book at the moment, but I'm not ready to drop it yet. The conclusion to Winick's arc next week may tell the story, as far as these first issues are concerned. And I'm still looking forward to seeing Daniel's take.

[Anxy]

I've actually been pleasantly surprised. I was ready to completely dis-own all the Bat-books, but I'm enjoying what most of the books are doing with BatDick. Could they be better? Probably. But I'm enjoying the books, and I feel like "Reborn" hit a really nice re-set switch for folks to jump into the stories and not feel too terribly lost. I could do without some of the more peripheral books and characters, though I'll admit to being a sucker for Detective Comics solely for the art.

I will say that Batman is playing second fiddle to Batman & Robin for me, but I get the feeling baybe it's supposed to?

[Mr. Holmes]

Yeah, I dropped "Batman" after #688. I like Two Face, but I'm not interested in Winnick trying to write Dick as a neophyte. Nothing against Judd though I like some of his writing, but this title didn't cut it for me. I'll give TD a chance, since I was a bit curious about Black Mask. I also understand that most of BftC was editorially mandated and he didn't get that much creative room (I actually still enjoyed BftC to some extent though). Hopefully he shines when he has his own room.

[strictlymonster]

It's moving a little slow so far, but I've enjoyed reading them. It has Dick still trying to get into the groove of being Batman, whereas B&R focuses on the story at hand. I think it will only get better and better after Dick is finally comfortable with being the bat. B&R has more action, but there is some cool character development in "Batman". I loved when Dick is training Damian and explaining why he talks so much during a fight. Good stuff!

[SpideyZERO]

I enjoy Batman as well. I don't understand why everyone is saying Winnick potrayed Dick as being a neophyte. Winnick's Dick is confident and even makes his own Batman image with media friendly methods. Everyone likes his Batman and so Dick gets overconfident and Two Face gets the chance to hit him unexpected.

About the Black Mask thing. I feel that it was editorial mandated. It seems like Winnick can't do anything much about Black Mask and his plot are Tony Daniel's story. It seems that Winnick can only give slight hints, but can't actually touch on his plans, as though as DC editorials telling him to fill time before Tony Danile can finish his art for his run.

[nepenthes]

I think it's wretched. Where is the guy who wrote Under the Hood?

[NickFury90]

It's think it's wretched. Where is the guy who wrote Under the Hood?

Still writing this "Batman", unfortunately.

And no, I'm not disappointed. Its Judd Winnick, I knew it had a 90% of being complete balls.

[DetectiveDupin]

I am. Winick has shown that he isn't completely terrible, but his arc has mostly been "....He's smiling!! He's on camera!!!" Like yes we get it, a new Batman. Under The Hood was much better. I would have actually liked to see him write Jason again, since I liked the way he wrote him.

[numberONE]

Yeah, a bit. I'm looking forward to Daniel's run already.

[Red_Knight]

Yeah, I'm holding out for Daniels, too. I just hope he has more in store for us than a Spawn-rip-off (Yes, I realize we don't know the first thing about that character, but neither the covers nor the corresponding solicts have really enticed me, so, yeah...)

[RonnieThunderbolts]

Yeah, I'm holding out for Daniels, too. I just hope he has more in store for us than a Spawn-rip-off (Yes, I realize we don't know the first thing about that character, but neither the covers nor the corresponding solicts have really enticed me, so, yeah...)

We do know, from the character's look, that there is a very good chance he is the Reaper, in some incarnation. The Star of David belt buckle, plus the scythe and skull mask are more than just a little in common with the previous Batman villain, the Reaper.

[Teatime Brutality]

I'm not disapointed at all.

I know that Winnick's writing isn't the sort of thing I like, so I had very low expectations which have, to be honest, been slightly exceeded by the actual book. While it may be obvious, laboured and relentlessly prosaic...it isn't actually horrible.

If you've getting Heston Blumenthal in to do the catering for your party, then it probably makes sense to have a burger van parked outside for any guests who don't fancy trying snail porridge.

If you're getting Grant Morrison in to write your flagship Batman book, then it makes sense to have another prominent book on the go by a writer who's never going to ask his readers to familiarise themselves with Hegalian dialectics to get what he's doing, solve a crossword puzzle in order to pick up on a vital plot point, or do any of the other things Mozza might expect of them at the drop of the hat. Winnick's characters are going to behave exactly as you'd expect generic characters to behave, and while they're doing so they're going to spell out why in pages full of text boxes that save you the trouble of having to interpret anything.

Winnick's Batman is not for me, but I can't really fault DC here. Except ithat sometimes I think that the excellent material Dini and Nguyen are putting out as Batman: Streets of Gotham would be reaching the audience it deserves it went out simply as Batman.

[Jack-In-The-Box]

It was a great opportunity for me to drop most of my Batman titles. I followed SoG and B&R for the first few issues but have now dropped those as well. This has freed up my cash for more interesting and unique items from further back in the PREVIEWS book.

[Mia]

Yeah, I dropped "Batman" after #688. I like Two Face, but I'm not interested in Winnick trying to write Dick as a neophyte. .

This is my view for both Batman and B&R. Which is why I have dropped both books. Batman is supposed to be a master tactician and genius. Someone who Dick is not.I love Dick to death but to me he is nothing but an athlete running around in a Batman costume.

This Batman reborn thing has been stretched for too long. Someone PM me when Bruce is coming back.

[Jake V]

Disappointed? No. Winick's book is exactly what I expected it to be.

Stylistically, it's exactly the same as Under the Hood. It opens with the end of the arc, spends a fair amount of time with gangster-style villains, and Batman fights villains seemingly unrelated to the main plot somewhere in the middle of it.

It's not nearly as good as Batman and Robin, but that's hardly a crime.

[batGRRRl4ever]

Huh, all this Winick trashing seems to be violating the Batman board moderator's rule #1:

1. As with all CBR forums, verbal attacks on other persons are not permitted. It doesn’t make any difference if it’s another poster, a creator or anybody else. It is not tolerated, so don’t do it.

This rule doesn't seem to get applied equally on these threads, at least IMO. Guess it depends on who is interested in what character, again IMO.

[Godlike13]

But are they thrashing him or his work.

[Captain Jim]

Huh, all this Winick trashing seems to be violating the Batman board moderator's rule #1:

1. As with all CBR forums, verbal attacks on other persons are not permitted. It doesn’t make any difference if it’s another poster, a creator or anybody else. It is not tolerated, so don’t do it.

This rule doesn't seem to get applied equally on these threads, at least IMO. Guess it depends on who is interested in what character, again IMO.

There is a big difference between saying, "I don't like Writer A's stories at all, because of x, y and z" and saying, "Writer A is an asshole," or "Writer A is intentionally trying to destroy this character we love." I wouldn't think the distinction would be that hard to understand.

[Vintage Crime]

I agree with Red Knight's thoughts. Batman has not been very interesting to me. I have nothing against Winnick as a writer, but the story hasn't been very entertaining to me.

Batman and Robin has been great on the other hand. We already have two arcs near completion in Batman and Robin and the stories have been cool. We also have new villains and new action. Dick as Batman has not been a master detective so he still fits his own character without aping Bruce.

I like detective stories with Bruce, but Bruce has been the star of easily over 2,000 Batman issues/stories if you count Batman, Detective, Shadow, Legends, Confidential, and all of the other Batman series and mini-series over the decades he's been around. Not to mention Else worlds stories. Dick as Batman is no where near stretched out considering the long run Bruce has had as Batman.

Personally, I like Batman and Robin, but Streets of Gotham has been great as well. I love when Paul comes up with great stories to give Gotham more life. The hideout realtor idea was great and the old carnival back story was cool. Detective has been great. Everything is working for me, but the Batman title itself. I should also note that I haven't followed Batgirl so I don't count that as a great Batman Reborn title. Anyway, I hope Tony Daniel has a better run.

[batGRRRl4ever]

There is a big difference between saying, "I don't like Writer A's stories at all, because of x, y and z" and saying, "Writer A is an asshole," or "Writer A is intentionally trying to destroy this character we love." I wouldn't think the distinction would be that hard to understand.

I seem to recall you stating on a separate thread:

Nope, that's your language, not mine. I meant nothing of the kind so I'll thank you not to read your own thoughts in between the lines.

Which I state, as always respectfully, to the moderator is exactly the same thing you just did to me in your secondary and third paraphrasing of things I never said above. Invisiboy then followed up to that other thread on how you yourself as the moderator at times do not seem to stay with the letter of your own rules of being respectful to other posters (and of course I say this respectfully and IMO of course):

Then, please, enlighten me as to what you truly meant when you posted the following: "Guess you haven't read too much." It sounds like a pretty rude comment to me, especially since you typed it on its own line. But, please explain.
I have been trying to appreciate your opinions and point of view -- despite your occasionally confrontational behavior in these forums -- and I would hope you would extend me the same courtesy.

I found your use of that "a" word potty word to be both inappropriate and somewhat confrontational in tone to use such strong language. And lastly, and respectfully, I have noticed this as well in the difference that you as the moderator seem to have in subjects that you want to either debate or have issue with in terms of creators which you allow to stay up even after some posters can get quite negative about certain creators, as this current Batman re-launch thread, but if it's a subject you don't like, say subjects relegated to Batgirl's (Bab's it seems specifically for those who don't accept the status-quo of this character in her current incarnation as 'Oracle'), you seem to after just a few pages to put out warnings, display a short tempered attitude about the discussion pertaining to a Batgirl character and shut them down, as Invisiboy indicated as well:

By the way, this thread seems to be off-topic, so you may want to close it. After you have the final word, of course.

Now that I have given my reply, as to my two-cents of the Batman re-launch I think it's FAN-BLOODY-TASTIC! I LOVE the fact that Dick has taken over as Batman as I have always seen Bruce to be a psychologically damaged character and like that Dick is so well grounded. I hope that Dick will stay as Batman permanently and have Bruce be relegated to be a new 'Oracle' type of character in the background, for to have him go back to being in a bat-costume would be regressing for both him as well as Dick to go back to Nightwing, as isn't that always the argument that Oracle fans have for not having Bab's back in the cowl as the original Batgirl? It's the same argument, IMO of course.

[CMBMOOL]

I've been disappointed in the Batman titles, since Morrison first started his run.:mad:

[Fatguy]

Yeah, IMO "Batman" has been the worst book since the whole Reborn thing started. Though, I havent read Sirens past issue 1, so I could be missing out on a contender there.

[Ninja Man-Bats]

it looks like batman from the 1990's :frown:. and it's more like a cartoon than a serious comic.

and comics can be serious i know ha ha

[Doug Side]

I want to be nice..

So all I will say is that Rob Hunter is really good at what he does.