Batman and LGBT

[ryerye17]

I was having a conversation with a lot of friends recently.

And, as far as everyone I've talked to is concerned, gay people DON'T like Batman.

We all know Wonder Woman loves the gays and the gays love Wonder Woman.

1) ALL my heterosexual comic book friends READ Batman, or at least one book of it.
2) ALL my homosexual comic book friends DON'T like Batman, or even are remotely interested in him.
3) ALL my heterosexual non-comic book friends LIKE Batman (the movie, the TV show version, pop image)
4) ALL my homosexual non-comic book friends still PREFER Wonder Woman over Batman any day of the week.

TO THE EXTENT, that I, as a comic book fan, really didn't think Dark Knight was that good, but all my heterosexual non-comic friends were "OMG, that was kick-ass!"

And they wondered why I didn't like it.

I was just wondering - why don't the gays love Batman?

My personal thing is that there's just nothing...fun about the entire Bat family. Even Cassandra Cain has a horridly unflattering outfit.

Huntress' is pretty though. Batwoman's outfit is pretty. Zatanna's outfit is pretty. Black Canary's outfit is pretty. Wonder Woman's outfit is pretty. Question's is ugly, but who's counting?



(At the very least, Flash and Green Lantern, and even Superman are neutral values. We don't necessarily like-like them but we don't un-like them, except for Hal Jordan who we don't like....and Kyle Rayner who we just adore)

[DetectiveDupin]

I think many gays dislike Batman because he is essentially the epitome of an Alpha-male, and is very dark serious. But to my understanding, a large amount of gays have an affinity for the Robin character. I do think the vast majority of Wonder Woman fans are gay, and speaking from my point of view the character has never appealed to me.

[ryerye17]

, a large amount of gays have an affinity for the Robin character. .

Have you seen Robin's costume? There was one version where he apparently doesn't wear pants. And the color scheme? Red and green and yellow?

Of course, the fact that Dick and Tim, and once-upon-a-time, Jason are hot boys doesn't really hurt that.

[DetectiveDupin]

Have you seen Robin's costume? There was one version where he apparently doesn't wear pants. And the color scheme? Red and green and yellow?

Of course, the fact that Dick and Tim, and once-upon-a-time, Jason are hot boys doesn't really hurt that.

And to my understanding, Dick's costume is the most popular. As is his penchant for getting tied up. A lot of this used to be shown a lot at Scans Daily.

[The Batman]

Oh dear . . .

[T Hedge Coke]

Of course there are gay batfans, and bi, intersexed and trans batfans. There are gay, bi, and possibly even trans people who have written for the bat-family, as focal characters or in guest appearances. There are a thousand homosexual bat-family pictures on the internet, male on male, female on female, many of them drawn by the same gender they are drawing/painting/photomanipping.

Also, I don't know who "we" is entirely here, but we (royal we, "we") aren't at all neutral on Flash or GL. Barry has a big head and a swimmers' build, kind of a wallflower. Wally is riding a long learning curve and has a tendency to say things, sometimes, he'd like to take back later (be they to his girlfriend or, say, crabface lantern boy). Jesse Quick was robbed.

And I prefer Joe Staton's Huntress to Ed Benes', but that's mostly an issue of standing tall and looking heroic.

[ryerye17]

OF COURSE THERE ARE. NOT as much as

(A) gay wonder woman fans
(B) gay comic book readers
(C) heterosexual batman readers. (percentage-wise)

[heystacy]

I was having a conversation with a lot of friends recently.

And, as far as everyone I've talked to is concerned, gay people DON'T like Batman.

We all know Wonder Woman loves the gays and the gays love Wonder Woman.

1) ALL my heterosexual comic book friends READ Batman, or at least one book of it.
2) ALL my homosexual comic book friends DON'T like Batman, or even are remotely interested in him.
3) ALL my heterosexual non-comic book friends LIKE Batman (the movie, the TV show version, pop image)
4) ALL my homosexual non-comic book friends still PREFER Wonder Woman over Batman any day of the week.

TO THE EXTENT, that I, as a comic book fan, really didn't think Dark Knight was that good, but all my heterosexual non-comic friends were "OMG, that was kick-ass!"

And they wondered why I didn't like it.

I was just wondering - why don't the gays love Batman?

My personal thing is that there's just nothing...fun about the entire Bat family. Even Cassandra Cain has a horridly unflattering outfit.

Huntress' is pretty though. Batwoman's outfit is pretty. Zatanna's outfit is pretty. Black Canary's outfit is pretty. Wonder Woman's outfit is pretty. Question's is ugly, but who's counting?



(At the very least, Flash and Green Lantern, and even Superman are neutral values. We don't necessarily like-like them but we don't un-like them, except for Hal Jordan who we don't like....and Kyle Rayner who we just adore)

Hello,

You have an interesting line of thought here, but I don't have an answer for you. I can't break his appeal down by orientation because everyone I speak to has different takes on what they like.

May I ask how you and your friends feel about Midnighter? He's a Batman archetype who happens to be gay.

I can say I have many friends who do love Batman in some form (regardless of their orientation), be it the animated series by Timm/Dini, the movies, or the comics.

Some love the character for his anti-hero aspects, others like the fact that he's a masterful warrior who uses skill and wit to solve crimes vs super powers. You mention the looks of the character. He's very imposing visually, and to some extent creepy!

Batman stories have ranged from outstanding to horrendous, so some simply may be put off by how he's been written as an all knowing jerk in the past.

[strictlymonster]

I used to have many debates with a gay male co-worker, who was a huge comic fan, over the best hero. I, a straight dude, have always been way into Batman. He hated Batman with a passion, ripping on everything about him from his suit to lack of superpowers. Most homosexuals I've talked to about comics, and I have talked to quite a few, love Superman and Storm from the X-Men.
I think heterosexual males dig Batman because he's a man's man, playboy ladies man by day badass by night. He has cool toys and gadgets and a awesome clubhouse. What it all comes down to is the utility belt, it's a guy thing. Function over Fashion, the definition of straight.

[T Hedge Coke]

Function over Fashion, the definition of straight.

Cape. (cough) Pointy ears and big yellow chestpiece. (cough hack wheeze) Guns terrify me but missiles are fun!

Batman, at his best is the ultimate leather/sugar daddy. He's hot, wrapped in skintight black goodness, and he gives out the best toys to those he likes. He can beat up Superman, but he's emo-efficient, if he's efficient at all.

[Flâneur]

I was having a conversation with a lot of friends recently.

And, as far as everyone I've talked to is concerned, gay people DON'T like Batman.

We all know Wonder Woman loves the gays and the gays love Wonder Woman.

1) ALL my heterosexual comic book friends READ Batman, or at least one book of it.
2) ALL my homosexual comic book friends DON'T like Batman, or even are remotely interested in him.
3) ALL my heterosexual non-comic book friends LIKE Batman (the movie, the TV show version, pop image)
4) ALL my homosexual non-comic book friends still PREFER Wonder Woman over Batman any day of the week.

TO THE EXTENT, that I, as a comic book fan, really didn't think Dark Knight was that good, but all my heterosexual non-comic friends were "OMG, that was kick-ass!"

And they wondered why I didn't like it.

I was just wondering - why don't the gays love Batman?

My personal thing is that there's just nothing...fun about the entire Bat family. Even Cassandra Cain has a horridly unflattering outfit.

Huntress' is pretty though. Batwoman's outfit is pretty. Zatanna's outfit is pretty. Black Canary's outfit is pretty. Wonder Woman's outfit is pretty. Question's is ugly, but who's counting?



(At the very least, Flash and Green Lantern, and even Superman are neutral values. We don't necessarily like-like them but we don't un-like them, except for Hal Jordan who we don't like....and Kyle Rayner who we just adore)
Just, no.

I honestly find Batman to be one of the most tolerable parts of the DCU and I really enjoy the satellite books and characters like BoP, Batwoman and Catwoman. I'm also loving current Green Lantern, including both Hal (who we hate?) and Kyle. On the other hand, I absolutely despise the Superman family and hate it with a fashion, I don't think much of the Flash and find the Marvel family (outside Black Adam/Isis) to be cringe worthy. I also don't much like the martians, who, apart from Miss Martian, come across as mind numbing.

I do, however, like Titans and Wonder Woman, as well as random characters around the DCU such as Manhunter (now a part of the Bat family) and Blue Beetle.

Basically, all the stuff you say that -we- are neutral on, I hate and the thing you think we hate I happen to like.

[invisiboy]

I'm a gay guy, and I vastly prefer Batman to Wonder Woman. I've read tons of Batman comics, but maybe four or five Wonder Woman. (But if we are talking about TV shows. Lynda Carter as Wonder Woman did rock my world!)

[strictlymonster]

Cape. (cough) Pointy ears and big yellow chestpiece. (cough hack wheeze) Guns terrify me but missiles are fun!

Batman, at his best is the ultimate leather/sugar daddy. He's hot, wrapped in skintight black goodness, and he gives out the best toys to those he likes. He can beat up Superman, but he's emo-efficient, if he's efficient at all.

Since when were black capes and devil horns a fashion statement? I'm not talking about the nipples on the Batsuit version in that movie(that I could never bring myself to watch). The yellow chestpiece is functional, it is there to trick criminals into shooting him there, the most heavy guarded part of his suit. Cape, functional, used to glide or even a shield. The horns are just there to be scary, as opposed to Superman's flamboyant outfit .

[Forth World]

too many bat books veer into torture pr0n and snuff. dark knight, latest b and r stories, case in point.

gay folk in america face a lot of cruelty day to day. can see why having it in comics might be a turnoff for many.

[Quinnhop]

This whole thread is offensive.

As a gay male that likes to think of himself as being just as masculine as the next guy, it offends me that you're basing this on the fact that the Bat-Family costumes are dull. Reducing my sexuality and literary preferences to the fabulosity of character costumes is seriously insulting. I mean... Really?

Others saying that he's too masculine for gays to appreciate him? That's ridiculous. That's so utterly ridiculous. I don't seek out characters for their level of femininity, masculinity, or anything in-between. That's silly.

Even more upsetting is the suggestion that I, as a gay male, should prefer Wonder Woman of all characters. Seriously?! She's probably one of the poorest superhero concepts ever thought up. Bondage subtext? Really? Really?! Ugh. Women's lib she's not.

I was all excited to come into this thread and discuss Batwoman, the Question, and Jason Todd (pederastic Oedipal Complex, much?), but instead I get this shit? Boo. Go read a "Dazzler" TPB.

Cape. (cough) Pointy ears and big yellow chestpiece. (cough hack wheeze) Guns terrify me but missiles are fun!

Batman, at his best is the ultimate leather/sugar daddy. He's hot, wrapped in skintight black goodness, and he gives out the best toys to those he likes. He can beat up Superman, but he's emo-efficient, if he's efficient at all.

lol Exactly. Neal Adams' hairy chested Batman is still my #1.

[Mat001]

What's interesting is that when Fredrick Wertham made public his issues with comics, one of the things he cited was that Batman was the ultimate male homosexual fantasy. Two men living with a boy.

Anyway, I don't think all homosexual males hate Batman either. You're friends might, ryerye17, but they do not make up the majority who are fans of the characters. They might side with Superman more because he has to conceal who he is as Clark Kent, which for those who aren't fully out might identify with, but there's just as much to find attractive in Batman.

[DetectiveDupin]

I was all excited to come into this thread and discuss Batwoman, the Question, and Jason Todd (pederastic Oedipal Complex, much?),.



.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on those subjects.

[strictlymonster]

This whole thread is offensive.

You have a point, I never really thought of it as a gay/straight thing. Plenty of people don't like Batman based on the no powers thing alone. The post DID make me think of past conversations about Batman with my gay friends, but I don't think those opinions reflect on a whole community.
I'm straight and not a Wonder Woman fan, although as a 80's kid I did spin around like Linda Carter did on the show. I always related to Batman cause I lost a parent to gun violence at a young age, not cause I dig the ladies.

[ryerye17]

This whole thread is offensive.

As a gay male that likes to think of himself as being just as masculine as the next guy, it offends me that you're basing this on the fact that the Bat-Family costumes are dull. Reducing my sexuality and literary preferences to the fabulosity of character costumes is seriously insulting. I mean... Really?

Others saying that he's too masculine for gays to appreciate him? That's ridiculous. That's so utterly ridiculous. I don't seek out characters for their level of femininity, masculinity, or anything in-between. That's silly.

Even more upsetting is the suggestion that I, as a gay male, should prefer Wonder Woman of all characters. Seriously?! She's probably one of the poorest superhero concepts ever thought up. Bondage subtext? Really? Really?! Ugh. Women's lib she's not.

I was all excited to come into this thread and discuss Batwoman, the Question, and Jason Todd (pederastic Oedipal Complex, much?), but instead I get this shit? Boo. Go read a "Dazzler" TPB.



lol Exactly. Neal Adams' hairy chested Batman is still my #1.

First off, I'm sorry you feel that. It was not my intention to do so.

HOWEVER.

I'm speaking based on (1) my personal opinions (I'm LGBT, too, btw) AND (2) what I believe a good number of people believe. NOT TO MENTION that Wonder Woman and her LGBT following thread down at the Wonder Woman forum.

And, no, it's not just the dull costumes. That was a reducto ad absurdum hit that I actually thought you got. I said that the ENTIRE concept may seem a little...blah. (He doesn't go around waving a golden lasso!) And just the entire dark, eerie feel of Dark Knight (The movie) didn't help either. HOWEVER, I was shrieking when watching the Wonder Woman film.

It's basically a question of what as a social community gay people are more attracted to VS what gay people are more averse to.

ie, if you like Batman, ie, if you're as masculine as the guy next door, that's good - more power to you. Just as if you're into sports, more power to you. But we all know that the majority of gay guys can not even tolerate sports. THAT is the driving point of this thread.

We have to face the fact that MOST gay guys prefer Wonder Woman over Batman. It's okay if you don't, I'm just pointing out a convention


Anyway...super-hug? :)

[Quinnhop]

I'd like to hear your thoughts on those subjects.

Well, I'm a fan of Kate Kane, for the fact alone that she's trying. Or, rather, that the writers over at DC are trying through her. I mean, the company isn't nearly as liberal when it comes to their characters as the folks over at Marvel are and, while I understand that a many fans don't like the forced aspect of her character (the way she's been shoved into the Bat-Family mythos undeservedly), I can appreciate her for what she is: a symbol of tolerance.

It wouldn't have made sense to suddenly have Oracle, Huntress, etc. suddenly come out of the closet. And The Question, while a great character, doesn't carry the weight that someone with the actual bat symbol on her chest does. So, as long as Rucka continues to develop Kate into a fully realized character, I don't mind that she's more of a novelty at the moment than anything else. It's a gesture. She's a gesture. And I like that.

As for my thoughts on the Jason Todd character... It's hard to read Winnick's "Under the Hood" and not see Todd's actions towards Bruce as somewhat romantic in nature. As a boy Todd saw something in Bruce, sought him out, dyed his hair and donned tight skivvies to match Bruce's ideal, and fought admirably by his side (for him). He loved him. And, granted, in the context of the original stories, I think don't think there was anything pederastic about the relationship, but when Winnick had Todd confront Bruce about his death in "Under the Hood" it became obvious. It clicked.

Todd embodies unreciprocated love. He would do anything for Bruce, but Bruce wouldn't do the one thing back that Todd wanted him to do. The metaphor, of course, is "avenging" him, but, the subtext was something more. He was hurt. Heartbroken. And I don't think it's a stretch to read something deeper, more romantic, into the relationship. A good writer, certainly, could do the idea justice.

But maybe I'm just casting my own perspective onto the character.

Maybe.

You have a point, I never really thought of it as a gay/straight thing. Plenty of people don't like Batman based on the no powers thing alone. The post DID make me think of past conversations about Batman with my gay friends, but I don't think those opinions reflect on a whole community.
I'm straight and not a Wonder Woman fan, although as a 80's kid I did spin around like Linda Carter did on the show. I always related to Batman cause I lost a parent to gun violence at a young age, not cause I dig the ladies.

Yeah, I think it's foolish to suggest people only like Batman because of their sexuality.

As for your relation to the character... That's actually really interesting. I don't know that I've ever met someone that relates to the mythos for that reason. And it makes sense. Just, I've never encountered it.

When did you get into Batman? At what age?

[FeminineMystique]

My personal thing is that there's just nothing...fun about the entire Bat family. Even Cassandra Cain has a horridly unflattering outfit.

I can't let this comment stand Ryerye, sorry honey. Cass's outfit is kinky and HOT.

And I think the reason we in the LGBT community dislike Batman is the same reason some straight readers dislike him. He's a jerk.

Huntress' is pretty though. Batwoman's outfit is pretty. Zatanna's outfit is pretty. Black Canary's outfit is pretty. Wonder Woman's outfit is pretty. Question's is ugly, but who's counting?


Well the Question is going for function rather than style, be fair. There's something about the fedora hat though...I don't know, I have odd turn ons:tongue:

What's interesting is that when Fredrick Wertham made public his issues with comics, one of the things he cited was that Batman was the ultimate male homosexual fantasy. Two men living with a boy.


What's interesting is that anyone ever thought Wertham was a real psychologist instead of a two bit hack:tongue:

Seriously, I know plenty of gay men and not a ONE of them's "Ultimate fantasy" is shacking up with a ten year old boy. Wertham was just a miserable old bigot.

[ryerye17]

I can't let this comment stand Ryerye, sorry honey. Cass's outfit is kinky and HOT.



That's 'cause you like Bondage! LOL.

But be that as it may...there is absolutely NO excuse for those boots

[Quinnhop]

Seriously, I know plenty of gay men and not a ONE of them's "Ultimate fantasy" is shacking up with a ten year old boy. Wertham was just a miserable old bigot.

But I bet when they were Robin's age, all of them wanted a Batman.

;-)

Cause I know I did.

[strictlymonster]

Yeah, I think it's foolish to suggest people only like Batman because of their sexuality.

As for your relation to the character... That's actually really interesting. I don't know that I've ever met someone that relates to the mythos for that reason. And it makes sense. Just, I've never encountered it.

When did you get into Batman? At what age?

Well like most kids growing up when I did, I was into Batman from the start. My knowledge of him was basic, mostly from the Adam West show and cartoons, which never mentioned his origin that I know of.
When my father died I was 14, and all my friends tried to make me feel better, but none knew what it was like.
I shut myself off for a while after that and started reading comics. There was something about seeing what happened to Bruce Wayne, that hit home with me. My story being nowhere near as tragic as his, bearing witness to the death of not one but both parents. Still I related to the pain of a young boy who lost someone he loved and wanting justice.

[FeminineMystique]

But I bet when they were Robin's age, all of them wanted a Batman.

;-)

Cause I know I did.

Oddly most of the guys I know had a thing for Hawkman. Then again most of the guys I know are kinky as hell so maybe it's the bondage style chest harness sparking something off?

That's 'cause you like Bondage! LOL.

But be that as it may...there is absolutely NO excuse for those boots

Very true:biggrin: Cass is a dream come true for me:wink:

And no boots can compare to Batwoman's, but I think Cass's are alright

[Pixie_Solanas]

Catwoman's Brubaker/Cooke pleather bodysuit is sooo dated now.

Back to the thigh high boots and cat mask, please.

[Quinnhop]

Anyway...super-hug? :)

Yes.

:-3

Oddly most of the guys I know had a thing for Hawkman. Then again most of the guys I know are kinky as hell so maybe it's the bondage style chest harness sparking something off?

He's in a category all his own, that hairy-chested sex machine.

*kink*

Catwoman's Brubaker/Cooke pleather bodysuit is sooo dated now.

Back to the thigh high boots and cat mask, please.

I know, right? Pleather bodysuits went out of style with the Matrix sequels.

[FeminineMystique]

He's in a category all his own, that hairy-chested sex machine.

*kink*


You just know he's "Dominant" in the bedroom too:wink:

Catwoman's Brubaker/Cooke pleather bodysuit is sooo dated now.

Back to the thigh high boots and cat mask, please.

Skintight leather is NEVER a bad thing:wink:

[Quinnhop]

You just know he's "Dominant" in the bedroom too:wink:

And only in the best ways.

lol!

We're new BFFs!

[FeminineMystique]

And only in the best ways.

lol!

We're new BFFs!

Seems like we've already got something in common:wink:

[ryerye17]

Oddly most of the guys I know had a thing for Hawkman. Then again most of the guys I know are kinky as hell so maybe it's the bondage style chest harness sparking something off?


Really? I like Hawkman but I don't think-think of him that way. (I have a thing against who dress up as animals)

Anyway. Hawktop and Hawkbottom :biggrin:

[FeminineMystique]

Really? I like Hawkman but I don't think-think of him that way. (I have a thing against who dress up as animals)

Furries?:wink: I know a couple. Their REALLY not "Freaks" like their often viewed. Their just into different things than some people

Anyway. Hawktop and Hawkbottom :biggrin:

So VERY true:biggrin:

[Quinnhop]

P.S. "Under the Hood" is totally an even euphemisminier euphemism for "in the closet."

[ryerye17]

Furries?:wink: I know a couple. Their REALLY not "Freaks" like their often viewed. Their just into different things than some people:

Oh, I know a couple too. Of course, by all means, who are we to judge right?:tongue: . I'm just not into it (I'm too much of a cat lover)

P.S. "Under the Hood" is totally an even euphemisminier euphemism for "in the closet."

LOL!

This thread is becoming...too gay

[Quinnhop]

Think about it.

[FeminineMystique]

Oh, I know a couple too. Of course, by all means, who are we to judge right?:tongue: . I'm just not into it (I'm too much of a cat lover)

Furries and beastiality are two very different things honey. The kittens are safe:biggrin:

P.S. "Under the Hood" is totally an even euphemisminier euphemism for "in the closet."

Okay, I'm making that part of my volcabulary now:biggrin:

[Terry121]

I was having a conversation with a lot of friends recently.

And, as far as everyone I've talked to is concerned, gay people DON'T like Batman.

We all know Wonder Woman loves the gays and the gays love Wonder Woman.

1) ALL my heterosexual comic book friends READ Batman, or at least one book of it.
2) ALL my homosexual comic book friends DON'T like Batman, or even are remotely interested in him.
3) ALL my heterosexual non-comic book friends LIKE Batman (the movie, the TV show version, pop image)
4) ALL my homosexual non-comic book friends still PREFER Wonder Woman over Batman any day of the week.

TO THE EXTENT, that I, as a comic book fan, really didn't think Dark Knight was that good, but all my heterosexual non-comic friends were "OMG, that was kick-ass!"

And they wondered why I didn't like it.

I was just wondering - why don't the gays love Batman?

My personal thing is that there's just nothing...fun about the entire Bat family. Even Cassandra Cain has a horridly unflattering outfit.

Huntress' is pretty though. Batwoman's outfit is pretty. Zatanna's outfit is pretty. Black Canary's outfit is pretty. Wonder Woman's outfit is pretty. Question's is ugly, but who's counting?



(At the very least, Flash and Green Lantern, and even Superman are neutral values. We don't necessarily like-like them but we don't un-like them, except for Hal Jordan who we don't like....and Kyle Rayner who we just adore)

An interesting train of thought but bit flawed when you think about it.

I personally like dark and gritty comics my sexuality doesn't play a matter in it nor do I belive that anybody elses does either. I mean only because someone is gay doesn't mean that they can't like a certain genre. The fact that most of you're lgbt friends dislike that tittle is purely coincidental.

In the end it all comes down to personal preference, if you like Batman you read Batman and if not then not.

[goRimbaud!]

Hey,

I'm a poet/journalist/writer from Istanbul, Turkey. I'm gay. And yes, Batman is my fave superhero. I even have a big poetry titled 'Batman&Robin'. I used Robin as a tragic feminine side of a secret, dark, disturbing relationship. I think it's perfect way for an epic new punk poetry. In my country, people who reads my poems, they always say, yes this is some new punk poems and my 'Batman&Robin' is a great poem for my style. I always like Batman too much. He's dark, he's real and totally alone. Robin who tragic one is lyric, poetic tune in their story. This poem will publish with my other poems in my first book. It will be different. In depth, it's about tragic gay story which there's a more lover than the other one. Also, i wanted to show my love and obbessions about these two characters. Batman, the Dark Knight who in the night. Batman is so masculine. And so masculine is always so gay.

And a little note: I'm writing so many things on my country and one day, they will translate in English, i hope. And i ll try Dc Comics. Maybe, after so many years and so many ways, i can write my Batman story about sex . Yes, i'm not kidding.

[ryerye17]

I have a feeling that I should say something.

But I'm doubfounded by that previous statement.

[goRimbaud!]

I have a feeling that I should say something.

But I'm doubfounded by that previous statement.

Hey, say something 'cause you are the only one who i watch on this forum. I can give you a list about more gender-ish books. Also, i'm working with a proffessor/writer and we are working about a gender book, like sexual pleasures in LGBT. In this book, i think i will use old Batman and Robin comics which are infamous about their homosexual tunes. They are so important. As a culture code, gender-bending and cross-dressing terms comes with comics! Batman was one of them. Maybe secret, but totally working on every level of sexuality.

Also, i think, Robin is a character for Batman's masculine life. Robin always helps, always pratic, always smart. Like a perfect boy-friend!

I'm reading mature comics. I'm big fan of Peter Milligan's Vertigo works. Shade the Changing Man is next step after Woolf or Joyce or Faulkner for me. But i'm reading so many superhero books by Dc Comics. Bat-comics are top on my list. When i discover my sexuality, i said, okay i'm gay i hope i can find a rich boyfriend who buy me more and more comics. I'm still waiting someone like him.

[Anxy]

Wait, WHAT?!

I'm queer as a catfart and I like Batman just fine. I don't have any especial opinion or "take" on Batman that any heterosexual comic geek friend of mine wouldn't also have. He's a comic book character that I've enjoyed since I was a wee tot, just like Spidey or Superman.

I understand the whole gay subtext some people bring up regarding Batman and Robin. Whatever. It's fodder for really dumb, trite, often offensive jokes and the occasional kinda creepy gay erotic fanfic/fan art. Yeah, I get it. But I don't buy into a homoerotic dynamic intentionally being their relationship in the comics.

It's really kinda silly and unrealistic to say "all gay people" love or hate anything. So don't.

[trypr]

It's really kinda silly and unrealistic to say "all gay people" love or hate anything. So don't.

I have to agree with this.

There could be an interesting discussion to be had about why people in the LGBT community may like or dislike Batman, or if our identity as a queer person even plays a part in it. I don't think that making sweeping generalisations, especially about people who post on the Wonder Woman forums, is the way to stimulate this. You're just going to tick off a lot of people.

I love the new Wonder Woman forum and Diana, and I also enjoy Batman books, films and the animated series. Batman is a fascinating character, whether you like him or not as a personality, and there are a great many takes on the character, including some of the most critically acclaimed superhero comics ever written.

Not everyone will like him, but it does us all a disservice to characterise a whole community of comic readers in such a polarising and stereotypical manner.

[Flâneur]

Hey,

I'm a poet/journalist/writer from Istanbul, Turkey. I'm gay. And yes, Batman is my fave superhero. I even have a big poetry titled 'Batman&Robin'. I used Robin as a tragic feminine side of a secret, dark, disturbing relationship. I think it's perfect way for an epic new punk poetry. In my country, people who reads my poems, they always say, yes this is some new punk poems and my 'Batman&Robin' is a great poem for my style. I always like Batman too much. He's dark, he's real and totally alone. Robin who tragic one is lyric, poetic tune in their story. This poem will publish with my other poems in my first book. It will be different. In depth, it's about tragic gay story which there's a more lover than the other one. Also, i wanted to show my love and obbessions about these two characters. Batman, the Dark Knight who in the night. Batman is so masculine. And so masculine is always so gay.

And a little note: I'm writing so many things on my country and one day, they will translate in English, i hope. And i ll try Dc Comics. Maybe, after so many years and so many ways, i can write my Batman story about sex . Yes, i'm not kidding.

Hey, say something 'cause you are the only one who i watch on this forum. I can give you a list about more gender-ish books. Also, i'm working with a proffessor/writer and we are working about a gender book, like sexual pleasures in LGBT. In this book, i think i will use old Batman and Robin comics which are infamous about their homosexual tunes. They are so important. As a culture code, gender-bending and cross-dressing terms comes with comics! Batman was one of them. Maybe secret, but totally working on every level of sexuality.

Also, i think, Robin is a character for Batman's masculine life. Robin always helps, always pratic, always smart. Like a perfect boy-friend!

I'm reading mature comics. I'm big fan of Peter Milligan's Vertigo works. Shade the Changing Man is next step after Woolf or Joyce or Faulkner for me. But i'm reading so many superhero books by Dc Comics. Bat-comics are top on my list. When i discover my sexuality, i said, okay i'm gay i hope i can find a rich boyfriend who buy me more and more comics. I'm still waiting someone like him.
You amaze me.

[Bullets& Bracelets]

I won't comment on Batman.

But alot of gay men I've met online on discussion boards are not fans of Cassandra Cain as Batgirl and strongly prefer Barbara Gordon as Batgirl.

Why?

Though they'll never admit it, it's simply because of the outfit. High heels and such.

It's more sexy and fashionable than Cain's black ninja outfit.

The more sexy and fashionable the superheroine's costume, the more likely the character is going to have a strong gay following.

See Storm and Wonder Woman....


ALSO: Tim Drake needs to come out of the closet at LEAST as a bisexual....

[nepenthes]

I always assumed that gay people would be to drawn Batman, if anything.

It's weird how Batman comics have like three lesbians but no gay males. No out gay males at least. So much for DC's social diversity.

Hey,

I'm a poet/journalist/writer from Istanbul, Turkey. I'm gay. And yes, Batman is my fave superhero. I even have a big poetry titled 'Batman&Robin'. I used Robin as a tragic feminine side of a secret, dark, disturbing relationship. I think it's perfect way for an epic new punk poetry. In my country, people who reads my poems, they always say, yes this is some new punk poems and my 'Batman&Robin' is a great poem for my style. I always like Batman too much. He's dark, he's real and totally alone. Robin who tragic one is lyric, poetic tune in their story. This poem will publish with my other poems in my first book. It will be different. In depth, it's about tragic gay story which there's a more lover than the other one. Also, i wanted to show my love and obbessions about these two characters. Batman, the Dark Knight who in the night. Batman is so masculine. And so masculine is always so gay.

And a little note: I'm writing so many things on my country and one day, they will translate in English, i hope. And i ll try Dc Comics. Maybe, after so many years and so many ways, i can write my Batman story about sex . Yes, i'm not kidding.

Ha ha I'd like to read this if i got a chance. Good luck with it. Shade is one of my all time favourite series too.

[DarkKnghtJared]

I'm a bi male, and I tend to like Batman more then the other "queer books" like Wonder Woman and the X-books, because he was the first superhero I was exposed to, the first comic I ever read, and just has so many cool characters and ideas that even it's worst stories can be at least somewhat entertaining.

ALSO: Tim Drake needs to come out of the closet at LEAST as a bisexual....

I always thought that too--his friendship with Conner is a little too strong to be considered a mere bromance...

It's weird how Batman comics have like three lesbians but no gay males. No out gay males at least. So much for DC's social diversity.

Yeah, it is kind-of odd--the only gay characters I can think of is one couple that was highlighted near the end of Batman: Fugitive.

[Quinnhop]

Tim isn't the one that needs to come out.

Jason is.

[AiyokuSama]

Tim isn't the one that needs to come out.

Jason is.

I've always seen Jason as Bi.

[nepenthes]

Tim isn't the one that needs to come out.

Jason is.

this would be a distater. imagine pages and pages of people taking about negative depictions of queers in comics. he's not the most well adjused character ha ha

[Quinnhop]

I've always seen Jason as Bi.

Talia kissed him and all he could think about was Bruce.

That's like kissing Angelina Jolie and only being able to think about some random leather daddy from your past.

lol

this would be a distater. imagine pages and pages of people taking about negative depictions of queers in comics. he's not the most well adjused character ha ha

lol True.

But imagine how much of his pent up rage and anger towards Bruce would be done away with by coming out. We all know he's sexually frustrated. It just makes the most sense that said frustration stems from the pederastic relationship of Batman and Robin. To quote myself:

As for my thoughts on the Jason Todd character... It's hard to read Winnick's "Under the Hood" and not see Todd's actions towards Bruce as somewhat romantic in nature. As a boy Todd saw something in Bruce, sought him out, dyed his hair and donned tight skivvies to match Bruce's ideal, and fought admirably by his side (for him). He loved him. And, granted, in the context of the original stories, I think don't think there was anything pederastic about the relationship, but when Winnick had Todd confront Bruce about his death in "Under the Hood" it became obvious. It clicked.

Todd embodies unreciprocated love. He would do anything for Bruce, but Bruce wouldn't do the one thing back that Todd wanted him to do. The metaphor, of course, is "avenging" him, but, the subtext was something more. He was hurt. Heartbroken. And I don't think it's a stretch to read something deeper, more romantic, into the relationship. A good writer, certainly, could do the idea justice.

But maybe I'm just casting my own perspective onto the character.

Maybe.

But, like I said... Maybe I'm just projecting.

[nepenthes]

As for my thoughts on the Jason Todd character... It's hard to read Winnick's "Under the Hood" and not see Todd's actions towards Bruce as somewhat romantic in nature. As a boy Todd saw something in Bruce, sought him out, dyed his hair and donned tight skivvies to match Bruce's ideal, and fought admirably by his side (for him). He loved him. And, granted, in the context of the original stories, I think don't think there was anything pederastic about the relationship, but when Winnick had Todd confront Bruce about his death in "Under the Hood" it became obvious. It clicked.

Todd embodies unreciprocated love. He would do anything for Bruce, but Bruce wouldn't do the one thing back that Todd wanted him to do. The metaphor, of course, is "avenging" him, but, the subtext was something more. He was hurt. Heartbroken. And I don't think it's a stretch to read something deeper, more romantic, into the relationship. A good writer, certainly, could do the idea justice.

But maybe I'm just casting my own perspective onto the character.

Maybe.





i don't think you're projecting at all. It's been slightly implicit in all of the Robins but with Jason it's pretty clear. and it doesn't even need to have physical attraction involved.

[ryerye17]

Oh yeah. Babs-Batgirl had a really fierce outfit.

Cassandra? Hmm..maybe she and I could discuss that outfit a little more.

I like storm's white outfit....the retro one was hideous as hell though

[ryerye17]

Tim Drake is gay.
Jason Todd is gay

and Dick Grayson is the most frequent victim of slash fiction EVER.

and now, we have a little brat by the name of Damian Wayne

[Optic Rage!]

I'm kinda offended by this mass sterotyping.

I'm bi, and i've been a HUGE Cyclops fan since i was a kid, i also love Batman, Cassandra Cain, and Emma Frost.

I've never really been a fan of Wonder Woman, only becasue i find most DC heroes too perfect, which i find boring as hell. Which is why i don't like Superman either.

I think if someone likes Wonder Woman and dislikes Batman for such reasons as their outfits, well those are pretty shallow reasons and should not be taken seriously.

The X-Men has a queer cult following, because OBVIOUSLY we can relate to them more then any other team of heroes.

I dislike it when people use the grounds oh, oh i don't like him because he's an Alpha male, and i feel threatened by that, and the same goes for Alpha females. I think it's pretty insecure. Even though most of them would never admit it.

[AiyokuSama]

Talia kissed him and all he could think about was Bruce.

That's like kissing Angelina Jolie and only being able to think about some random leather daddy from your past.

put it down as part of the temporary insanity from the Lazarus Pit :wink:

Also, Jay had a real thing for Batgirl Babs.

[DarkKnghtJared]

Tim isn't the one that needs to come out.

Jason is.

Yeah, Jason in Under the Cowl did have a bit of a "jilted lover" subtext. I think there would be some controversy if the "crazy Robin" was the one that came out, though.

And yeah, I mentioned it in the DCU thread, but Damian is definately the Stewie Griffin of the DCU--including the feeling that he's probably going to be into dudes later on in life. He's probably bi too, though, since he did show interest in Katanna in Streets of Gotham.

[Mat001]

Talia kissed him and all he could think about was Bruce.

That's like kissing Angelina Jolie and only being able to think about some random leather daddy from your past.

If I kissed her, all I could think about was that she locked lips with her own brother. :eek:

[T Hedge Coke]

Though they'll never admit it, it's simply because of the outfit. High heels and such.

Wow, that's reductive and insulting.

Ahem. Barbara Gordon was stylish, heroic, intelligent, capable, and beat the Devil before Batman ever had the chance (also, she liplocked a Robin, which, as of this moment, Bats still has yet to accomplish :wink: ). Librarian, politician, superb athlete and genius.

Cassandra Cain has stitching over her mouth, no eyes, and was presented to us infantilized in all ways except killing.

But, that's just me, and maybe you have to be exclusively homosexual to be so petty and focused all you care about is how attractive the costume is (presuming there's a uniform taste there).

Maybe you're being sarcastic, or parodic, but if so, the underscoring isn't getting through.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Wow, that's reductive and insulting.

Ahem. Barbara Gordon was stylish, heroic, intelligent, capable, and beat the Devil before Batman ever had the chance (also, she liplocked a Robin, which, as of this moment, Bats still has yet to accomplish :wink: ). Librarian, politician, superb athlete and genius.

Cassandra Cain has stitching over her mouth, no eyes, and was presented to us infantilized in all ways except killing.

But, that's just me, and maybe you have to be exclusively homosexual to be so petty and focused all you care about is how attractive the costume is (presuming there's a uniform taste there).

Maybe you're being sarcastic, or parodic, but if so, the underscoring isn't getting through.

All boring. I liked Babs' Batgirl better because of the superior costume. That' it.

That "strong female" doing it for herself noise about the character does nothing for me. Who cares? I can get that thrill by watching the burly ass bus driving bulldogs drive me to work in the morning.

As far as the comics, I'm only there for the visuals, honey. I don't need pro-femme "We Can Do IT!" Rosie Riveter schlock.

[T Hedge Coke]

I don't need pro-femme "We Can Do IT!" Rosie Riveter schlock.

And I wasn't suggesting anything of the sort. I could say much the same things about Batman, really, and it would have nothing to do with his gender. It has to do with them being superheroes.

[Ceridwen]

I find it funny how here, and in the thread about Wonder Woman's LGBT following, all anyone wants to talk about is gay men. Like, I know there are some some lesbian/bi/queer women in both threads, but the majority of the thread seems taken up by the guys (and straight people) talking about what the guys like to see.

Anyway, for me (a queer trans woman), I always liked Batman stories when I was growing up, but they mostly came from the cartoon and the movies. I always loved Catwoman episodes (and Batman Returns was my favorite movie in the series), but I think a lot of that was because I was starved for cool women characters.

As for Batman in the comics, though, I really haven't been that interested. I've been reading through Grant Morrison's run, lately, but that's more because I really liked All-Star Superman, and was curious to see what else Morrison was doing. I think what's really turned me off from Batman is the overwhelming stranglehold that Miller's depiction has had on the character since The Dark Knight Returns was published. I'm twenty-four years old, that's my whole life.

The low point for me was a couple years back. I was sitting in a Barnes & Noble, reading The Dark Knight Strikes Again. I'd read The Dark Knight Returns when I was sixteen, and I was curious to see where the story went next. I'm going to put aside any arguments about quality at the moment. When I got to the moment where Batman realizes the Joker is actually Robin, when Batman beats him to death with his bare hands... OMG, I had a panic attack there in the store. I don't know if it was triggering stuff from my childhood, or from being bashed in college, but there it was. Ever since then I can't just brush off Bruce being a "dick" to the Bat-family, cuz that's not how you treat family. That's just abuse. And it's not something I much care to read about in my comics.

[ryerye17]

The low point for me was a couple years back. I was sitting in a Barnes & Noble, reading The Dark Knight Strikes Again. I'd read The Dark Knight Returns when I was sixteen, and I was curious to see where the story went next. I'm going to put aside any arguments about quality at the moment. When I got to the moment where Batman realizes the Joker is actually Robin, when Batman beats him to death with his bare hands... OMG, I had a panic attack there in the store. I don't know if it was triggering stuff from my childhood, or from being bashed in college, but there it was. Ever since then I can't just brush off Bruce being a "dick" to the Bat-family, cuz that's not how you treat family. That's just abuse. And it's not something I much care to read about in my comics.

Awww....super-hug honey :redface:

[Ceridwen]

Awww....super-hug honey :redface:
Thanks. :smile:

Thinking about it a little more, that was one thing I really liked about The Batman. It was the first time where I saw someone writing Batman who looked at the character and said "Hey, it doesn't make sense for him to be an asshole loner. He's got the biggest family of, like, any DC character." It was weird, and yet shockingly in character for him to be the one lecturing Superman on the need for a team by the final season.

[ScottyQuick]

Oh man Ceridwen, have you ever read the Batman: Gotham Knights series by Devin Grayson? It's all about how much Batman cares for his family.

[T Hedge Coke]

Grayson's run on that title, despite some essayish first person use in the early issues, was really remarkable for it's perspective on the bat-characters. The other writers weren't bad, as I recall, but that was her title in the end.

[batGRRRl4ever]

And, as far as everyone I've talked to is concerned, gay people DON'T like Batman.

1) ALL my heterosexual comic book friends READ Batman, or at least one book of it.
2) ALL my homosexual comic book friends DON'T like Batman, or even are remotely interested in him.

I was just wondering - why don't the gays love Batman?
My personal thing is that there's just nothing...fun about the entire Bat family. Even Cassandra Cain has a horridly unflattering outfit.

You may be just looking in the wrong direction. Barbara's original take as the definitive Batgirl was always popular with us gay boys and men. We loved her sassyness, her smarts, and the superhuman ability to run full tilt in yellow high heels! Batman was always too serious as a number of we gays would want to tell him, "Honey, get down off that crucifix, somebody needs the wood!" Richard's Robin was always popular too, especially in the years shortly before he became Nightwing when he still wore the green underoos and showed off his sexy muscular legs!

[batGRRRl4ever]

I won't comment on Batman.

But alot of gay men I've met online on discussion boards are not fans of Cassandra Cain as Batgirl and strongly prefer Barbara Gordon as Batgirl.

Why?

Though they'll never admit it, it's simply because of the outfit. High heels and such.

It's more sexy and fashionable than Cain's black ninja outfit.

The more sexy and fashionable the superheroine's costume, the more likely the character is going to have a strong gay following.

See Storm and Wonder Woman....


ALSO: Tim Drake needs to come out of the closet at LEAST as a bisexual....

I think you are half right in that yes we gay men generally like a gal to look fabulous, as we often see that as empowering. But the second half of that is that we gay men LOVE a woman who is smart, empowered, and large & in charge. And Storm, Diana, and Barbara also have those qualities in spades!!

[batGRRRl4ever]

I'm also a queer fan of Oracle over Batgirl and, using queer cult trends, it would make sense that Oracle would have that following over Batgirl because all of her 'strong woman' moments are under that title.

I respect your love of the 'Oracle' character but have to disagree that her queer following would ever be greater than Batgirl's, unless of course you were inferring Cass' version instead of Barbara's, as Babs/Batgirl has always had a rather loyal gay male following but Cass' not so much.

[Ceridwen]

Oh man Ceridwen, have you ever read the Batman: Gotham Knights series by Devin Grayson? It's all about how much Batman cares for his family.
:smile: That makes me happy. I haven't read it (I'm kinda new to superhero comics, at least, I feel that way sometimes), so I'll have to check it out.

[Freakzeek]

I was having a conversation with a lot of friends recently.

And, as far as everyone I've talked to is concerned, gay people DON'T like Batman.

We all know Wonder Woman loves the gays and the gays love Wonder Woman.

1) ALL my heterosexual comic book friends READ Batman, or at least one book of it.
2) ALL my homosexual comic book friends DON'T like Batman, or even are remotely interested in him.
3) ALL my heterosexual non-comic book friends LIKE Batman (the movie, the TV show version, pop image)
4) ALL my homosexual non-comic book friends still PREFER Wonder Woman over Batman any day of the week.

TO THE EXTENT, that I, as a comic book fan, really didn't think Dark Knight was that good, but all my heterosexual non-comic friends were "OMG, that was kick-ass!"

And they wondered why I didn't like it.

I was just wondering - why don't the gays love Batman?

My personal thing is that there's just nothing...fun about the entire Bat family. Even Cassandra Cain has a horridly unflattering outfit.

Huntress' is pretty though. Batwoman's outfit is pretty. Zatanna's outfit is pretty. Black Canary's outfit is pretty. Wonder Woman's outfit is pretty. Question's is ugly, but who's counting?



(At the very least, Flash and Green Lantern, and even Superman are neutral values. We don't necessarily like-like them but we don't un-like them, except for Hal Jordan who we don't like....and Kyle Rayner who we just adore)
You think the Question's costume is Ugly? BLASPHEMY



http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww318/Freakzeek_2009/hamner_question3_lorez.jpg




http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww318/Freakzeek_2009/hamner_question4_lorez.jpg



Stylish, Realistic & Practical at it's finest

[DarkKnghtJared]

You think the Question's costume is Ugly? BLASPHEMY



http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww318/Freakzeek_2009/hamner_question3_lorez.jpg




http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww318/Freakzeek_2009/hamner_question4_lorez.jpg



Stylish, Realistic & Practical at it's finest

Yeah, I find girls in suits and fedoras very sexy. I'd have no shot, even if she was real, but she's still hot. :biggrin:

And from what I've read of it, Grayson's run on Gotham Knights was pretty good--though her work in general does feel a bit sullied after her really bad run on Nightwing.

[Ceridwen]

http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww318/Freakzeek_2009/hamner_question4_lorez.jpg

omg, that sketch is really quite delicious. :wink:

[ScottyQuick]

:smile: That makes me happy. I haven't read it (I'm kinda new to superhero comics, at least, I feel that way sometimes), so I'll have to check it out.

Heh, it's okay. And I feel the same way about Batman as you do - Devin Grayson, Peter Tomasi and Paul Dini are three shining lights that have no trouble showing a Batman that's a family man.

Oh! And have you seen The Black Cat's stuff (http://the-blackcat.deviantart.com/)? BRILLIANT!

[Freakzeek]

Hey everbody Let's have more Scrumptcous Question


http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww318/Freakzeek_2009/hamner_question1_lorez.jpg








http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww318/Freakzeek_2009/hamner_question2_lorez.jpg

[Pixie_Solanas]

LOL @ unfashionable wardrobe designs for the Question.

[Freakzeek]

I do. it turns out that alot of our most interesting posters are gay. i never asked nor do i particularily care about their orientation but i do enjoy reading what they think about batman or comics. if it relates to that then i'm interested

I'am straight & I'm pretty curious about what those on the other edge of the coin think about batman, the batman universe & the character's involved in the Batman U

More Question :


http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww318/Freakzeek_2009/1255310860092.jpg

[Sean Whitmore]

I certainly expected to be deleting anti-gay posts in this thread, but I must admit the anti-Hudlin posts surprised me.

So to recap: Anti-Hudlin stuff goes on the Marvel board. Anti-gay stuff goes on the Community Board or YABS.


SEAN

[Zombie Superman]

I certainly expected to be deleting anti-gay posts in this thread, but I must admit the anti-Hudlin posts surprised me.

So to recap: Anti-Hudlin stuff goes on the Marvel board. Anti-gay stuff goes on the Community Board or YABS.


SEAN

Are you familiar with the term "double standard?"

If not, allowing pro-gay threads in a BATMAN FORUM but relegating anti-gay threads to a COMMUNITY FORUM is one hell of a good example.

How do you sleep at night knowing you are defending such hypocrisy?

[InSovietRussia]

I'am straight & I'm pretty curious about what those on the other edge of the coin think about batman, the batman universe & the character's involved in the Batman U...]

Well, here's an interesting question: why should sexual orientation effect the way that someone perceives a character? I've always thought that cultural influence had a much bigger impact on how American-style superheroes were seen, as they're very much a part of the time (early and mid twentieth century) and place (mostly the US's East Coast, with the local culture that entailed) that spawned them.

Are you familiar with the term "double standard?"

If not, allowing pro-gay threads in a BATMAN FORUM but relegating anti-gay threads to a COMMUNITY FORUM is one hell of a good example.

How do you sleep at night knowing you are defending such hypocrisy?

His wording was certainly off, but from what I've seen so far, any pro-gay comments in this thread have pretty much been mixed into broader comments about what it is that gays and lesbians think of Batman and his assorted supporting characters, so I'd say they're pretty much on topic. If you'd like to make some germane comments that cast gays in a negative light, I don't see that it'd be a problem, assuming they were in some way connected to the topic at hand.

[Sean Whitmore]

Are you familiar with the term "double standard?"

If not, allowing pro-gay threads in a BATMAN FORUM but relegating anti-gay threads to a COMMUNITY FORUM is one hell of a good example.

How do you sleep at night knowing you are defending such hypocrisy?

This will be the one and only post where I explain myself (because just for the record, nobody here is due one).

The topic of this thread is how gay people see the character of Batman. That's what we call "on-topic".

If this thread were just: "Yay for being gay!", it would also get moved to the Comm Board or YABS.

That you don't like the topic is what we call "tough." You're free to ignore it. You are not free to post in the thread about how much you dislike the thread.


SEAN

[ScottyQuick]

Well, here's an interesting question: why should sexual orientation effect the way that someone perceives a character? I've always thought that cultural influence had a much bigger impact on how American-style superheroes were seen, as they're very much a part of the time (early and mid twentieth century) and place (mostly the US's East Coast, with the local culture that entailed) that spawned them.

Because you are the single biggest factor in determining how you perceive a character. If you are gay, then you are different then if you are straight. That will change things.

[InSovietRussia]

Because you are the single biggest factor in determining how you perceive a character. If you are gay, then you are different then if you are straight. That will change things.

And if you're a European, you're quite different from an American, and if an Asian, then quite different from both, and so on. I guess my question is why sexual orientation instead of gender, the culture you were raised in, race, social position and so on? Or are do you think it's just one among many potential factors in how someone sees the subject matter?

edit: And what's more, why would you necessarily perceive something different if you're gay as opposed to someone who's straight? Is it a result of a different social standing, seeing sexual and political subtexts someone else might miss (or for that matter, missing some that a straight person might catch) identifying with certain characters in a different way due to personal experiences more likely to be common to gay people? Just takin' a couple of shots in the dark here....

[Sean Whitmore]

And if you're a European, you're quite different from an American, and if an Asian, then quite different from both, and so on. I guess my question is why sexual orientation instead of gender, the culture you were raised in, race, social position and so on? Or are do you think it's just one among many potential factors in how someone sees the subject matter?

I think it's just because the thread-starter is gay, and so that's the point of view that matters to him.

But you're right, there could just as easily be a thread about how the Asian community perceives Batman.


SEAN

[T Hedge Coke]

And if you're a European, you're quite different from an American, and if an Asian, then quite different from both, and so on. I guess my question is why sexual orientation instead of gender, the culture you were raised in, race, social position and so on? Or are do you think it's just one among many potential factors in how someone sees the subject matter?

Because those are other threads to be had, allowing for more specific focus on those elements individually, providing greater detail and variety in a controlled structure of regulations?

There's been some really interesting things mentioned here, as statements or suggestions, along with some disturbing bigotry, ad hominem digressions, and post hoc fallacies, that reflect on comics culture, individual preference, and the bat-world. I never would have made that violence/LGBT connection, for instance, and still don't quite buy it, but it is interesting as an element of the discussion, as is the suggestion that strong female characters are somehow immediately pushing a feminist Rosie the Riveter agenda instead of just being strong characters. The fashion wars, re: The Question, especially, have been fun.

If you don't want to know, if you aren't interested in the discussion, there are other threads where this aspect of conversation is not the focal. You could read and participate in those, instead.

If there's a discussion you aren't seeing happen, and there isn't a thread suited to it, yet, make that thread and wait for people to reply.

[Flâneur]

I respect your love of the 'Oracle' character but have to disagree that her queer following would ever be greater than Batgirl's, unless of course you were inferring Cass' version instead of Barbara's, as Babs/Batgirl has always had a rather loyal gay male following but Cass' not so much.
Irrelevant. The point being that if we wanted to reduce it down to simple factors then we could equally elevate Oracle to a massive massive queer icon, simply because she was given empowering moments by a female writer and fits under two minority labels (and the X-men's minority label brings them their cult following). She's not a queer icon that I know of. Similarly, if fashion were all that mattered like a few posters suggested then Storm and most superheroes would be on the dung heap.

It's not always that simple, we can get pretty complex and contradictory sometimes. That aside, the fashion argument fails since we generally stereotype lesbians as the utilitarian to our aesthete. Flashy and fashionable wouldn't exactly invoke a following from that stereotype.
I certainly expected to be deleting anti-gay posts in this thread, but I must admit the anti-Hudlin posts surprised me.

So to recap: Anti-Hudlin stuff goes on the Marvel board. Anti-gay stuff goes on the Community Board or YABS.


SEAN
I don't remember making anti-Hudlin posts? Just a general Storm post since I was asked about her sexuality and which books.

[ScottyQuick]

And if you're a European, you're quite different from an American, and if an Asian, then quite different from both, and so on. I guess my question is why sexual orientation instead of gender, the culture you were raised in, race, social position and so on? Or are do you think it's just one among many potential factors in how someone sees the subject matter?

edit: And what's more, why would you necessarily perceive something different if you're gay as opposed to someone who's straight? Is it a result of a different social standing, seeing sexual and political subtexts someone else might miss (or for that matter, missing some that a straight person might catch) identifying with certain characters in a different way due to personal experiences more likely to be common to gay people? Just takin' a couple of shots in the dark here....

I think it's one among many potential factors. Frex, I like Glee. A lot. My friend and I were talking about it, and she pointed out that the non-white characters were taught how to shoplift whereas the white characters were given sex/alcohol. I hadn't noticed that, and I'm white. She isn't. I think that factors into it.

A lot of things. Devin Grayson noted that queer people are better about reading into subtext and looking between the lines then straight people, and look at Io, who a lot of straight people managed to not get that she was in love with Diana, whereas queer people were all "um, duh".

[InSovietRussia]

Because those are other threads to be had, allowing for more specific focus on those elements individually, providing greater detail and variety in a controlled structure of regulations?

There's been some really interesting things mentioned here, as statements or suggestions, along with some disturbing bigotry, ad hominem digressions, and post hoc fallacies, that reflect on comics culture, individual preference, and the bat-world. I never would have made that violence/LGBT connection, for instance, and still don't quite buy it, but it is interesting as an element of the discussion, as is the suggestion that strong female characters are somehow immediately pushing a feminist Rosie the Riveter agenda instead of just being strong characters. The fashion wars, re: The Question, especially, have been fun.

If you don't want to know, if you aren't interested in the discussion, there are other threads where this aspect of conversation is not the focal. You could read and participate in those, instead.

If there's a discussion you aren't seeing happen, and there isn't a thread suited to it, yet, make that thread and wait for people to reply.

Actually, if you take a look at the bit I added to the post you quoted, I'm pretty interested in the accompanying mindset of people who see things through the prism of sexual preference. I say this, because as a bi guy, I pretty much don't view things that way (that I've ever noticed, anyhow), and I suppose I'm just interested in what's running through the heads of people who do. Are they the norm, am I? Is this a strong or weak influence on how we (comic book fans, internet posters, gays or straights, whatever) view media? How much of what we see is there in the first place, and how much comes out through our own interpretation of the work, and so on.

[Sean Whitmore]

I don't remember making anti-Hudlin posts? Just a general Storm post since I was asked about her sexuality and which books.

No worries, it was just getting a smidge off-topic so I moved it to the X-board:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=290420


SEAN

[FeminineMystique]

Hey everbody Let's have more Scrumptcous Question


http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww318/Freakzeek_2009/hamner_question1_lorez.jpg








http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww318/Freakzeek_2009/hamner_question2_lorez.jpg

You can never have too much smexy Question goodness:biggrin:

I certainly expected to be deleting anti-gay posts in this thread, but I must admit the anti-Hudlin posts surprised me.

So to recap: Anti-Hudlin stuff goes on the Marvel board. Anti-gay stuff goes in the trash

SEAN

Fixed it for you to reflect where "Anti-Gay stuff" belongs:biggrin:

[Ceridwen]

Well, here's an interesting question: why should sexual orientation effect the way that someone perceives a character? I've always thought that cultural influence had a much bigger impact on how American-style superheroes were seen, as they're very much a part of the time (early and mid twentieth century) and place (mostly the US's East Coast, with the local culture that entailed) that spawned them.
Well, while I wouldn't go so far as to say there's a gay 'culture,' there's certainly a series of experiences that a lot of LGBT people share in America. The easiest one to latch on to is the experience of the closet, whether intentionally hiding who you are or the assumptions of people around you. There's the experience of homophobic and transphobic discrimination and violence. When you grow up with these as part of your experience, it certainly shapes the way you see the world around you, and the way you interpret the stories you read.

On top of that, there are certainly queer cultures (plural) out there that LGBT people may or may not consider themselves a part of. It's a bit different from other cultures in that it's not something one is usually raised with, but even living in such a culture as an adult would change the way you read things, and even what you take in.

[AiyokuSama]

Oh! And have you seen The Black Cat's stuff (http://the-blackcat.deviantart.com/)? BRILLIANT!

Yes, yes it is :biggrin:

[Ninja Man-Bats]

alot of gay people might like batman. in some ways it's a tight fit.

but there would never be a gay robin or gay guy supporting character because then it would just prove all the people right who who think batman is kind of GAY. i mean like the older batman movies with george cloonys nipples and his giant package, the 60's show and all the jokes. Not saying that i think that but it's sadly it could be true. he's a huge character and he's supposed to be for kids after all and we all know parents don;t want gay men with anything to do with their kids. please dont flame me i'm just saying what other people and people at a company like DC might think.

[AiyokuSama]

we all know parents don;t want gay men with anything to do with their kids.

We do? since when? My parents never had any such problem. I have no such problem.

It sounds to me like you're buying into stereo-types.

If it was really about the poor, impressionable children, Bruce Wayne wouldn't be such a ladies man. Batman wouldn't have shadowed sex scenes with Talia in his main title, for example.

Frankly, I don't think whatever sexuality Bruce/Batman himself has, will necessarily influence whether or not gay (or straight) readers enjoy his stories.

[Quinnhop]

Frankly, I don't think whatever sexuality Bruce/Batman himself has, will necessarily influence whether or not gay (or straight) readers enjoy his stories.

Eh... As much as I hate to admit it, I think it certainly would.

Bruce Wayne is such a ladies man that, for him to suddenly be confirmed as gay, would feel like a betrayal -- I'm sure -- to a majority of his straight male fanbase (which is to say 80-90% of it). Granted, not all of them would drop the titles because of it, but... It would certainly cause a stir. AND, it would pretty much call his relationship with all of the Robins into a degree of speculative consideration.

And no, I'm not in any way suggesting gay men with male wards should automatically be labeled pedophiles, but given Batman's sordid history with previous accusations of pedophilia and pederasty... It doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

Let Todd be gay. That's enough for me.

[ScottyQuick]

but there would never be a gay robin or gay guy supporting character because then it would just prove all the people right who who think batman is kind of GAY. i mean like the older batman movies with george cloonys nipples and his giant package, the 60's show and all the jokes. Not saying that i think that but it's sadly it could be true. he's a huge character and he's supposed to be for kids after all and we all know parents don;t want gay men with anything to do with their kids. please dont flame me i'm just saying what other people and people at a company like DC might think.

Batwoman disagrees with you.
Renee Montoya from Batman: The Animated Series disagrees with you.

I think one day Tim Drake will come out, the only question is when.

[AiyokuSama]

Eh... As much as I hate to admit it, I think it certainly would.

You misunderstand me. I'm not talking about his sexuality being changed.

I'm talking about it not being the main reason someone starts reading the comics.

[trypr]

I find it funny how here, and in the thread about Wonder Woman's LGBT following, all anyone wants to talk about is gay men. Like, I know there are some some lesbian/bi/queer women in both threads, but the majority of the thread seems taken up by the guys (and straight people) talking about what the guys like to see.

It's an element that bothers me about the opening post, considering the title of the thread: there is also some blurring between LGBT & gay and gay people & gay men within the opening post and the thread as a whole.The first time the plurality of the LGBT superhero comic reading public was brought up, the responce was to cite that men reading Wonder Woman or Batman, straight and gay, were more numerous; without further qualification and with the apparent (I would welcome a correction/clarification from ryerye17) implication that non male opinions were less important. I'm fine with people talking about what they want to see, I just don't like them to speak as if on my behalf.

Having said that, I'm pleased people have continued with an interesting discussion; my misgivings were wrong.

I think a character like Batman is compelling beyond issues of sexuality: he's more primal than that if you will. Nonetheless any form of representation for a minority is bound to influence their interest in a character to some degree, because there is such a thirst for representation; being able to connect through it sometimes, if not always. I don't need a character to be queer, to be interested in them, any more than I need them to be female; but I do need some of the characters I read about to be female and some to be queer. Just as I need some to be smart, sexy, feminine, masculine or anything else.

Our different interests vary according to what we see and value in ourselves, as well as what we fear. They are also part of what we bring to superheros, how we flesh out the space between panels and in their personalities, the tone of their voice, even the significance of how they dress. These issues, and their subtext, are what discussion whirls around after all.

I know for example that I am in the Renee's outfits rock camp (yay for all who posted pics), because it reflects a sensibility that is classic, rather than fashionable, and melds elements of a butch aesthetic with a distinctly feminine cut. It's a look I find attractive in both senses and it represents a timeless, hardboiled cool that is practical and stylish. The noir element is something I find attractive that others may associate with being dull. It's an appeal that is affected but not defined by my orientation: and I think that is a healthy outlook, whatever your interest.

Well, while I wouldn't go so far as to say there's a gay 'culture,' there's certainly a series of experiences that a lot of LGBT people share in America. The easiest one to latch on to is the experience of the closet, whether intentionally hiding who you are or the assumptions of people around you. There's the experience of homophobic and transphobic discrimination and violence. When you grow up with these as part of your experience, it certainly shapes the way you see the world around you, and the way you interpret the stories you read.

On top of that, there are certainly queer cultures (plural) out there that LGBT people may or may not consider themselves a part of. It's a bit different from other cultures in that it's not something one is usually raised with, but even living in such a culture as an adult would change the way you read things, and even what you take in.

Sorry to pick on you again, but QFT :)

[ryerye17]

you know...

I'm pleasant surprised that a lot of people (majority as a matter of fact) believe that Jason Todd is homosexual. Another lot of people believe that Tim Drake is homosexual. Then there's the current little diva brat Damian Wayne. As true as that may be...why are we forgetting the ORIGINAL Robin Dick Grayson? Aside from his *snicker* name, Grayson was well over 70 years of Robin exposure, most of which has been lampooned over at superdickery.

I'd think Grayson is as gay, if not morbidly gayer, than Todd and Drake and Damian Wayne combined. Let's just say he originated the Robin curse

[DetectiveDupin]

But Dick... Well he just doesn't strike me the type at all. At least the way he has been written in recent years. Todd, I can see that.

[ryerye17]

But Dick... Well he just doesn't strike me the type at all. At least the way he has been written in recent years. Todd, I can see that.

but...but...but...but...but... (http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=32&Itemid=50)

[DetectiveDupin]

but...but...but...but...but... (http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=32&Itemid=50)

I'm aware of most of those, just saying in recent years.

[ryerye17]

I'm aware of most of those, just saying in recent years.

but..but...he obviously is incapable of sustain a heterosexual relationship.
Talk about Starfire. Babs.

[DetectiveDupin]

but..but...he obviously is incapable of sustain a heterosexual relationship.
Talk about Starfire. Babs.

Like father, like son.

[Lemurion]

I'm not gay, and I do prefer Batman to Wonder Woman (and Hal Jordan to Kyle Rayner - who I find has the greatest curse of any comic book character - IMHO he's boring).

I don't personally know a lot of LGBT comics fans, and I don't want to speak from the mouth between the wrong set of cheeks, but it's my best guess that individual variations in taste far outweigh any possible group tendencies, so we're likely to end up with the old statistical situation.

Statistics may indicate (as the OP stated) that gay males are more likely as a group to like Wonder Woman and dislike Batman - but that doesn't say anything about which comics the person lined up in front of you wearing the Gay Pride button has in his pull box.

Oh and as far as the Robins go? I would think Dick Grayson would be the least likely to be gay. He's supposed to be the best-balanced of the Bat-Family, and I don't see a well-balanced gay man having multiple failed relationships with women. He'd be more likely to emulate Mikaal Tomas and have a relationship with a man. I also believe that even half a century or more after Wertham, there is no way that Batman or any Robin would ever be outed as gay.

[FeminineMystique]

alot of gay people might like batman. in some ways it's a tight fit.

but there would never be a gay robin or gay guy supporting character because then it would just prove all the people right who who think batman is kind of GAY. i mean like the older batman movies with george cloonys nipples and his giant package, the 60's show and all the jokes. Not saying that i think that but it's sadly it could be true. he's a huge character and he's supposed to be for kids after all and we all know parents don;t want gay men with anything to do with their kids. please dont flame me i'm just saying what other people and people at a company like DC might think.

Um, my uncle was gay, as was my mothers best friend. They never had any problem with them being around me as a kid.

And you do realise there are THREE gay supporting characters in the Batman comics right now, right? One of whom has her own comic right now?

[catsmeow]

I'm gay and I love Batman. Love his supporting cast, especially love Catwoman. Wonder Woman does nothing for me, so it's a fallacy that gays love WW and not Batman.

(You are definitely right about Jordan and Kyle, though)

EDIT: I have to add, I am really turned off by Rucka's run and his obsession with lesbians (Montoya, Maggie Sawyer, Batwoman, etc.). It's a little much, and it comes at the expense of gay male characters, who have yet to turn up in the Batbooks.

[Freakzeek]

It's an element that bothers me about the opening post, considering the title of the thread: there is also some blurring between LGBT & gay and gay people & gay men within the opening post and the thread as a whole.The first time the plurality of the LGBT superhero comic reading public was brought up, the responce was to cite that men reading Wonder Woman or Batman, straight and gay, were more numerous; without further qualification and with the apparent (I would welcome a correction/clarification from ryerye17) implication that non male opinions were less important. I'm fine with people talking about what they want to see, I just don't like them to speak as if on my behalf.

Having said that, I'm pleased people have continued with an interesting discussion; my misgivings were wrong.

I think a character like Batman is compelling beyond issues of sexuality: he's more primal than that if you will. Nonetheless any form of representation for a minority is bound to influence their interest in a character to some degree, because there is such a thirst for representation; being able to connect through it sometimes, if not always. I don't need a character to be queer, to be interested in them, any more than I need them to be female; but I do need some of the characters I read about to be female and some to be queer. Just as I need some to be smart, sexy, feminine, masculine or anything else.

Our different interests vary according to what we see and value in ourselves, as well as what we fear. They are also part of what we bring to superheros, how we flesh out the space between panels and in their personalities, the tone of their voice, even the significance of how they dress. These issues, and their subtext, are what discussion whirls around after all.

I know for example that I am in the Renee's outfits rock camp (yay for all who posted pics), because it reflects a sensibility that is classic, rather than fashionable, and melds elements of a butch aesthetic with a distinctly feminine cut. It's a look I find attractive in both senses and it represents a timeless, hardboiled cool that is practical and stylish. The noir element is something I find attractive that others may associate with being dull. It's an appeal that is affected but not defined by my orientation: and I think that is a healthy outlook, whatever your interest.



Sorry to pick on you again, but QFT :)
http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww318/Freakzeek_2009/1255307280792.png




http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww318/Freakzeek_2009/the_question_by_midknight23.jpg

[EmmettHULK]

I was having a conversation with a lot of friends recently.

And, as far as everyone I've talked to is concerned, gay people DON'T like Batman.

We all know Wonder Woman loves the gays and the gays love Wonder Woman.

1) ALL my heterosexual comic book friends READ Batman, or at least one book of it.
2) ALL my homosexual comic book friends DON'T like Batman, or even are remotely interested in him.
3) ALL my heterosexual non-comic book friends LIKE Batman (the movie, the TV show version, pop image)
4) ALL my homosexual non-comic book friends still PREFER Wonder Woman over Batman any day of the week.

TO THE EXTENT, that I, as a comic book fan, really didn't think Dark Knight was that good, but all my heterosexual non-comic friends were "OMG, that was kick-ass!"

And they wondered why I didn't like it.

I was just wondering - why don't the gays love Batman?

My personal thing is that there's just nothing...fun about the entire Bat family. Even Cassandra Cain has a horridly unflattering outfit.

Huntress' is pretty though. Batwoman's outfit is pretty. Zatanna's outfit is pretty. Black Canary's outfit is pretty. Wonder Woman's outfit is pretty. Question's is ugly, but who's counting?



(At the very least, Flash and Green Lantern, and even Superman are neutral values. We don't necessarily like-like them but we don't un-like them, except for Hal Jordan who we don't like....and Kyle Rayner who we just adore)


Wow, that's pretty shallow. You are saying that gay people don't like BATMAN because they want to see superheroes with "pretty" costumes?


I actually like Batman as much as I like WW, and their costumes have nothing to do with it.


You are also implying that GLTB folks are a hive-like mind, and we all like the same things...:rolleyes:

[EmmettHULK]

This whole thread is offensive.

As a gay male that likes to think of himself as being just as masculine as the next guy, it offends me that you're basing this on the fact that the Bat-Family costumes are dull. Reducing my sexuality and literary preferences to the fabulosity of character costumes is seriously insulting. I mean... Really?

Others saying that he's too masculine for gays to appreciate him? That's ridiculous. That's so utterly ridiculous. I don't seek out characters for their level of femininity, masculinity, or anything in-between. That's silly.

Even more upsetting is the suggestion that I, as a gay male, should prefer Wonder Woman of all characters. Seriously?! She's probably one of the poorest superhero concepts ever thought up. Bondage subtext? Really? Really?! Ugh. Women's lib she's not.

I was all excited to come into this thread and discuss Batwoman, the Question, and Jason Todd (pederastic Oedipal Complex, much?), but instead I get this shit? Boo. Go read a "Dazzler" TPB.



lol Exactly. Neal Adams' hairy chested Batman is still my #1.

Bravo! My sentiments exactly (but I do love WW)

[jlmoor]

Um, my uncle was gay, as was my mothers best friend. They never had any problem with them being around me as a kid.

And you do realise there are THREE gay supporting characters in the Batman comics right now, right? One of whom has her own comic right now?

I'm jumping in way late in the game here, so feel free to tell me to piss off, but...I sat in on a high school psych class as they were discussing attitudes towards gay/lesbian characters in the media. I live in a VERY backwards small mid-western town. I wanted to cry when the kids started talking about how the attitudes of their parents (completely homophobic) really did not have that much effect on their views. Not at all what I expected from this group. They talked about how having gay/lesbian characters in the media normalized it so when their families tried to villify it they just figured it was old people being stupid (which it is). So, perhaps having an increase of gay and lesbian characters might turn off some older fans, especially if say Batman or a Robin wound up gay, but I doubt it would cripple the franchise.

[ScottyQuick]

http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww318/Freakzeek_2009/the_question_by_midknight23.jpg

SOURCE SOURCE SOURCE

[Freakzeek]

SOURCE SOURCE SOURCE

I sketched this up a few months ago

[FeminineMystique]

I'm jumping in way late in the game here, so feel free to tell me to piss off, but...I sat in on a high school psych class as they were discussing attitudes towards gay/lesbian characters in the media. I live in a VERY backwards small mid-western town. I wanted to cry when the kids started talking about how the attitudes of their parents (completely homophobic) really did not have that much effect on their views. Not at all what I expected from this group. They talked about how having gay/lesbian characters in the media normalized it so when their families tried to villify it they just figured it was old people being stupid (which it is). So, perhaps having an increase of gay and lesbian characters might turn off some older fans, especially if say Batman or a Robin wound up gay, but I doubt it would cripple the franchise.

That's exactly why we need more gay/lesbian figures in the media. If it's shown to be the norm and not something to be hidden away or marginalised, it has a positive affect, just like it did on those kids who weren't affected by their parents bigoted BS

And I've said it before and I'll say it again: ANYONE who'd stop reading comics just because a character was gay is a reader the company can do without. :biggrin:

[DarkKnghtJared]

I sketched this up a few months ago

:eek: My God that is awesome. You're a gifted artist, man. :biggrin:

[Freakzeek]

:eek: My God that is awesome. You're a gifted artist, man. :biggrin:

Thank You ! I dabble here & there in the arts

[NickGuy]

i wont bother reading this thread, but for my 2 cents, batman represents a very militaristic, unforgiving steryotype. he doesnt seem the type to be accpeting of a gay son or daughter (again, this is the vibe he gives off)

[T Hedge Coke]

i wont bother reading this thread, but for my 2 cents, batman represents a very militaristic, unforgiving steryotype. he doesnt seem the type to be accpeting of a gay son or daughter (again, this is the vibe he gives off)

Wah?

Bruce has been adopting orphans, fans, and imitators all his career in black tights or blue shorts. Batman has to be forgiving, or he'd kill more people. And, he's The Universal Batdaddy.

At what point has post-Crisis, canonical, Bruce Wayne ever shown irrational bigotries, outside of his weird gun phobia or his annual day of picking on Huntress?

edit: I guess I shouldn't have bothered, as you won't be reading the thread.

[FeminineMystique]

i wont bother reading this thread, but for my 2 cents, batman represents a very militaristic, unforgiving steryotype. he doesnt seem the type to be accpeting of a gay son or daughter (again, this is the vibe he gives off)

To be honest, I think Bats wouldn't care, not because of how open minded he is/isn't but because all he cares about is his mission. So long as the kid could toss a batarang at the Joker's getaway vehicle with enough accuracy to shred the tyres, I doubt Batman cares who their attracted to

[T Hedge Coke]

Visions of Bruce now: "I could handle the good hair, the bared chest and better ass, and the wide lapels, the junkie friends or that weird fishboy, wars on strange alien worlds, those short shorts... but you're gay, too? Well, you're not beating up poor people stealing TVs or psychotic clowns with me anymore, I'll tell you that!"

[Vakanai]

i wont bother reading this thread, but for my 2 cents, batman represents a very militaristic, unforgiving steryotype. he doesnt seem the type to be accpeting of a gay son or daughter (again, this is the vibe he gives off)

Really?
I get a very different vibe from Batman. He'd be unaccepting of crime, sure, but I never got the feeling he was bigoted in any way.
A paranoid jerk perhaps depending on the writer, but that's about it.

[MTL76]

Really?
I get a very different vibe from Batman. He'd be unaccepting of crime, sure, but I never got the feeling he was bigoted in any way.
A paranoid jerk perhaps depending on the writer, but that's about it.

Agreed, Bats is too hyper-rational to be a bigot.

[Jared]

I think it would be a big mistake to officially "out" any of the Robins. Even with nothing happening with Bruce, it would seem to give validity to the long-standing Batman & Robin jokes would be belitting to both characters. The fact that the Robins are all kids when they start out just makes the whole thing too creepy.

[T Hedge Coke]

The fact that the Robins are all kids when they start out just makes the whole thing too creepy.

You realize that every gay adult very very possibly had an earlier existence as a kid, right? The exceptions are weird clones or gay robots.

[Jared]

You realize that every gay adult very very possibly had an earlier existence as a kid, right? .

Of course, but how many hung out in a cave with an older man who mentored them?

[T Hedge Coke]

Of course, but how many hung out in a cave with an older man who mentored them?

Excluding the "cave" part, um, most people spent time with older people of some gender as children. That's how the adult/child thing works. Unless they're feral children.

I'd like Bruce to adopt a feral child while he's in caveman days, come to think. It'd be fun.

[Sean Whitmore]

I'd like Bruce to adopt a feral child while he's in caveman days, come to think. It'd be fun.

Honestly? I would be absolutely surprised if something like that didn't happen, even if it was just a quick sight gag.


SEAN

[DarkKnghtJared]

Excluding the "cave" part, um, most people spent time with older people of some gender as children. That's how the adult/child thing works. Unless they're feral children.

I'd like Bruce to adopt a feral child while he's in caveman days, come to think. It'd be fun.

Or they do what they did in the fan art I saw and he has a dinosaur Robin. I don't care how unlikely it is, I would buy four copies of that book instantly.

[Freakzeek]

Honestly? I would be absolutely surprised if something like that didn't happen, even if it was just a quick sight gag.


SEAN

Nah he wouldn't adopt a feral kid....maybe a t-rex

http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww318/Freakzeek_2009/Batmanpast.jpg

[AiyokuSama]

I'd like Bruce to adopt a feral child while he's in caveman days, come to think. It'd be fun.

I can see it happening :biggrin:

It amuses me no end that the big brooding loner seems to be hard wired to take in kids :tongue:

[Terry121]

You realize that every gay adult very very possibly had an earlier existence as a kid, right? The exceptions are weird clones or gay robots.

Lol. That sentence say's it all.

[Vakanai]

Agreed, Bats is too hyper-rational to be a bigot.

Not quite how I would have worded it, but yeah, pretty much.

Edit: I just read a post somewhere about a hyper-rational conservative dude, so now I'm wondering if this hyper-rational thing was a joke I missed or something. I just assumed hyper-rational meant very logical or something...

[Vakanai]

You realize that every gay adult very very possibly had an earlier existence as a kid, right? The exceptions are weird clones or gay robots.

I don't know. You're failing to take into account gay clones that start as babies and childlike gay robots.:biggrin:

[DarkKnghtJared]

I can see it happening :biggrin:

It amuses me no end that the big brooding loner seems to be hard wired to take in kids :tongue:

Indeed--something read a long time back described Bats as "the friendliest loner in town." It's one of the things I love about the character. :biggrin:

Not quite how I would have worded it, but yeah, pretty much.

Edit: I just read a post somewhere about a hyper-rational conservative dude, so now I'm wondering if this hyper-rational thing was a joke I missed or something. I just assumed hyper-rational meant very logical or something...

I've never heard of hyper-rational as a real thing before, so I just assumed he meant very rational.

[pariah-1972]

I wonder how many of you feel that Batman might be slightly homophobic? which is possibley why Joker has been known to tease him sometimes.

And if Jason Todd were to come out of the closet i think that would set up some interesting idea's.

But i think it's also stupid to say that a gay person can't relate to Batman, i mean if i were to say i can't relate to Midnighter or any other character because of there gayness i'm sure i would be vilified as homophobic.

[InSovietRussia]

But i think it's also stupid to say that a gay person can't relate to Batman, i mean if i were to say i can't relate to Midnighter or any other character because of there gayness i'm sure i would be vilified as homophobic.

Vilified as homophobic? I should hope not. It's not at all easy to relate to most characters that aren't a series of generic tropes, in my opinion. I would think that most people don't buy comics to relate to the protagonists so much as to see an interesting story being told.

[FeminineMystique]

I wonder how many of you feel that Batman might be slightly homophobic? which is possibley why Joker has been known to tease him sometimes.
.

I actually think Bat's is uncomfortable with sexuality in general. Think about it, he's pretty much completely skipped out the whole "Awakening sexuality" part of growing up. When you go from being a child to a teenager and start to notice the opposite sex/same sex/both more. Bruce has literally just ignored all that, focused solely on his training.

He only ever dates women with whom things are "Casual", is solely attracted to women with whom there's no real chance of a relationship and if that chance ever DOES occur he sabotages it somehow.

[pariah-1972]

I actually think Bat's is uncomfortable with sexuality in general. Think about it, he's pretty much completely skipped out the whole "Awakening sexuality" part of growing up. When you go from being a child to a teenager and start to notice the opposite sex/same sex/both more. Bruce has literally just ignored all that, focused solely on his training.

He only ever dates women with whom things are "Casual", is solely attracted to women with whom there's no real chance of a relationship and if that chance ever DOES occur he sabotages it somehow.Well it's pretty hard for someone like Batman to have a normal relationship even if he tried.


But he doesn't have a problem with female sexuality such as Cat-woman and Talia who are both defiantly femme fatales.

[ryerye17]

Vilified as homophobic? I should hope not. It's not at all easy to relate to most characters that aren't a series of generic tropes, in my opinion. I would think that most people don't buy comics to relate to the protagonists so much as to see an interesting story being told.

You haven't heard of the phrase "Target Demographic", have you?

[FeminineMystique]

Well it's pretty hard for someone like Batman to have a normal relationship even if he tried.


But he doesn't have a problem with female sexuality such as Cat-woman and Talia who are both defiantly femme fatales.

True. But the minute things start to get "Intimate" he seems to step back, start trying to find ways for the relationship not to work. He's happy enough when there's a certain amount of distance but when things start to get too real he pulls back into the cape and cowl

[Vakanai]

I wonder how many of you feel that Batman might be slightly homophobic? which is possibley why Joker has been known to tease him sometimes.

I'm pretty sure Joker just does it because Joker be crazy.

I actually think Bat's is uncomfortable with sexuality in general. Think about it, he's pretty much completely skipped out the whole "Awakening sexuality" part of growing up. When you go from being a child to a teenager and start to notice the opposite sex/same sex/both more. Bruce has literally just ignored all that, focused solely on his training.

He only ever dates women with whom things are "Casual", is solely attracted to women with whom there's no real chance of a relationship and if that chance ever DOES occur he sabotages it somehow.

Plus there's the whole thing that someone might get killed in a villain's vengeance thing. You know, the whole safety/can't risk a real lover angle. Possibly.
But yeah, romance isn't exactly in Bruce's nature.

But since he's back in time, he could probably get a few cave women, no strings attached.
I think I just eeked myself out a little.

[pariah-1972]

I'm pretty sure Joker just does it because Joker be crazy.



Plus there's the whole thing that someone might get killed in a villain's vengeance thing. You know, the whole safety/can't risk a real lover angle. Possibly.
But yeah, romance isn't exactly in Bruce's nature.

But since he's back in time, he could probably get a few cave women, no strings attached.
I think I just eeked myself out a little.Only the best Cave women for our Brucie.

[Quinnhop]

Only the best Cave women for our Brucie.

http://www.peteykins.com/sparklepony/BettyRubble.jpg

The original Batwoman?

:eek:

[Mia]

I actually think Bat's is uncomfortable with sexuality in general. Think about it, he's pretty much completely skipped out the whole "Awakening sexuality" part of growing up. When you go from being a child to a teenager and start to notice the opposite sex/same sex/both more. Bruce has literally just ignored all that, focused solely on his training.

He only ever dates women with whom things are "Casual", is solely attracted to women with whom there's no real chance of a relationship and if that chance ever DOES occur he sabotages it somehow.

That doesn't mean he's uncomfortable with sexuality. He's just uncomfortable with domesticity and the boredom that comes with it. After all, 'who wants to have the same home cooking' everynight, if you get my drift (that was a joke). Of course it depends on the writer, but half the time when I read Batman you get the sense that he does what he does because he likes the adventure.

Personally I like it that Batman/Bruce Wayne playing the playboy and refusing to commit. There are many men who would get married, but have a string of affairs or visit hookers, therefore hurting their wife. At least Bruce Wayne/Batman is being the playboy and playing the field there's no duplicity. I strongly suspect that Bruce only carries on with women who know exactly what they are in for.

[invisiboy]

You may be just looking in the wrong direction. Barbara's original take as the definitive Batgirl was always popular with us gay boys and men. We loved her sassyness, her smarts, and the superhuman ability to run full tilt in yellow high heels!

True that! Gay men especially love Batgirl -- well, that Babs version anyway. A few gay stores in my city always have new Wonder Woman, Batgirl and Catwoman merchandise. They are gay icons of strong women.

And we don't watch "Batman" reruns for Batman. We tune in to see Batgirl, Catwoman and Robin (in his tight shorts).

[DarkKnghtJared]

I wonder how many of you feel that Batman might be slightly homophobic? which is possibley why Joker has been known to tease him sometimes.

Probably because of his jerkass tendencies in recent continuity, which I put to his focusing so much of his energy on things that purely help his mission that he doesn't really know how to interact with people.

True. But the minute things start to get "Intimate" he seems to step back, start trying to find ways for the relationship not to work. He's happy enough when there's a certain amount of distance but when things start to get too real he pulls back into the cape and cowl

Just because he tends to prefer some emotional distance doesn't mean he never had an "awakening sexuality" thing.

[ryerye17]

True that! Gay men especially love Batgirl -- well, that Babs version anyway. A few gay stores in my city always have new Wonder Woman, Batgirl and Catwoman merchandise. They are gay icons of strong women.

And we don't watch "Batman" reruns for Batman. We tune in to see Batgirl, Catwoman and Robin (in his tight shorts).

See. This is "precisely" the point why I started the thread. Say all you want about being able to like any characters, that's fine by me. It's just like you're a gay man who's into sports - more power. But don't expect the gay community to watch your games. Because facts speak for themselves - the gay community doesn't like sports.

While the gay community likes Wonder Woman. If you're gay and you like Batman, that's cool and all. But the gays, as a collective, still like Wonder Woman.

[T Hedge Coke]

What's the use in being that reductive? Disqualifying levels of gayness based on whether one likes sports or a sport? Batman or Batgirl? Which, Batgirl is preferred?

There are gay cultures. There are many of them, some of them larger than others, some of them with bleeds into other cultures and overlapping tendencies and understandings. The only thing that unifies all gay people is a sexual interest in their own gender.

There are Bi, Gay, Lesbian, and Trans (sub)cultures, many of them. They are not defined and never should be defined, on a massive monocultural level, by what superhero they prefer or if they can name five football teams. I've watched more hockey with other bisexuals than I have with straight people, but I'm not going to define bisexuality on the basis of a love of hockey, mostly, because it doesn't gain us anything for me to do so.

I've seen suggestions here that it's an issue of fashion, of sexual attraction, of a shying away from violence, or "doing it for herself schlock" and, seriously, none of that has a thing to do with LGBT culture. It has to do with certain cultures, certain subcultures, queer or otherwise, but not every gay man is hip-deep in fashion (in fact, I assure you less aren' than are, and either end of that spectrum is just as gay as the other), every lesbian is not aroused by the teen girl with her mouth stitched over and the bat ears, and every trans person is not fierce. That's reductive thinking, not even essentialist, just reductive.

And, the suggestion that Bats may just be too violent is just plain weird and unexamined. Batman is too violent, but Clive Barker and Sade are fine? No more wire hangers, is fine? There may be a subset, a subculture or culture wherein the queer populace finds Batman too violent to bear, or individuals may find him and the comics about him to be such, but as something endemic to non-het sexuality?

[Freakzeek]

Wow Generalazations are just running wild in this thread. like one gay person can speak for a whole culture

[ryerye17]

What's the use in being that reductive? Disqualifying levels of gayness based on whether one likes sports or a sport? Batman or Batgirl? Which, Batgirl is preferred?

There are gay cultures. There are many of them, some of them larger than others, some of them with bleeds into other cultures and overlapping tendencies and understandings. The only thing that unifies all gay people is a sexual interest in their own gender.

There are Bi, Gay, Lesbian, and Trans (sub)cultures, many of them. They are not defined and never should be defined, on a massive monocultural level, by what superhero they prefer or if they can name five football teams. I've watched more hockey with other bisexuals than I have with straight people, but I'm not going to define bisexuality on the basis of a love of hockey, mostly, because it doesn't gain us anything for me to do so.

I've seen suggestions here that it's an issue of fashion, of sexual attraction, of a shying away from violence, or "doing it for herself schlock" and, seriously, none of that has a thing to do with LGBT culture. It has to do with certain cultures, certain subcultures, queer or otherwise, but not every gay man is hip-deep in fashion (in fact, I assure you less aren' than are, and either end of that spectrum is just as gay as the other), every lesbian is not aroused by the teen girl with her mouth stitched over and the bat ears, and every trans person is not fierce. That's reductive thinking, not even essentialist, just reductive.

And, the suggestion that Bats may just be too violent is just plain weird and unexamined. Batman is too violent, but Clive Barker and Sade are fine? No more wire hangers, is fine? There may be a subset, a subculture or culture wherein the queer populace finds Batman too violent to bear, or individuals may find him and the comics about him to be such, but as something endemic to non-het sexuality?



I get your point. However, for you to say that there is no such thing as a prevailing "gay culture" sounds a bit...unlikely.

We have the concept of a "social community." And gayness is so much much more than liking a person of the same sex. It is in fact a psychological bond that identifies you as that gender.

Take for instance women.

Is it fair to say that "woman" is just person with vagina and big boobies?

No, because there's so much more to being a woman than the vagina. There's femininity. There's motherhood. There's sisterhood.

In other words, there DOES exist a social construct that DICTATES how the norm acts.

Why do a lot of people raise an eyebrow when they find out that their boss is female? Or why do you think Women's sports do not reach the same acclaim as men's sports? True, we're PAST the point where we discriminate OPENLY, but to a certain level these things remain.

TAKE FOR INSTANCE:

When Serena Williams foul-mouthed the referee, everyone was "OMG. That's wrong!" But EVERY SINGLE MALE ATHLETE does this and it's okay.

It becomes a double-standard. THEY BECOME DEFINED BY THEIR GENDER

Tie-ing it back to gayness.

Fashion IS part of gayness. Granted that not all men like to shop, YET it's still what gayness is about. Why do you think we label "The Devil Wears Prada" as the ultimate gay movie? Why is "Lady GaGa" a gay icon?

It has EVERYTHING to do with gender.

and to tie-everything back to what this post is about.

Gender is a part of us and it defines us. Wonder Woman is fun and she flies around with a magic lasso. And a huge portion of the gay community likes Wonder Woman.

Perhaps we should put up a poll amongst all LGBT people here at CBR:

Hey gay people, which do you prefer, Batman or Wonder Woman?

You already know the answer to that don't you?

[Ceridwen]

I get your point. However, for you to say that there is no such thing as a prevailing "gay culture" sounds a bit...unlikely.

We have the concept of a "social community." And gayness is so much much more than liking a person of the same sex. It is in fact a psychological bond that identifies you as that gender.

Take for instance women.

Is it fair to say that "woman" is just person with vagina and big boobies?

No, because there's so much more to being a woman than the vagina. There's femininity. There's motherhood. There's sisterhood.

In other words, there DOES exist a social construct that DICTATES how the norm acts.

Why do a lot of people raise an eyebrow when they find out that their boss is female? Or why do you think Women's sports do not reach the same acclaim as men's sports? True, we're PAST the point where we discriminate OPENLY, but to a certain level these things remain.

TAKE FOR INSTANCE:

When Serena Williams foul-mouthed the referee, everyone was "OMG. That's wrong!" But EVERY SINGLE MALE ATHLETE does this and it's okay.

It becomes a double-standard. THEY BECOME DEFINED BY THEIR GENDER

Tie-ing it back to gayness.

Fashion IS part of gayness. Granted that not all men like to shop, YET it's still what gayness is about. Why do you think we label "The Devil Wears Prada" as the ultimate gay movie? Why is "Lady GaGa" a gay icon?

It has EVERYTHING to do with gender.

and to tie-everything back to what this post is about.

Gender is a part of us and it defines us. Wonder Woman is fun and she flies around with a magic lasso. And a huge portion of the gay community likes Wonder Woman.

Perhaps we should put up a poll amongst all LGBT people here at CBR:

Hey gay people, which do you prefer, Batman or Wonder Woman?

You already know the answer to that don't you?
That word "culture". I don't think it means what you're thinking it means.

As a woman, let me tell you, there is no such thing as "universal sisterhood". There's no such thing as a "culture of all women everywhere". That's a myth of 1960s feminism that ignored the huge diversity within women. Your ethnicity and your religion and your social class and your sexuality and your body and your gender expression all drastically shape the way you experience being a woman.

And similarly, there is no singular gay community. A white gay boy living in poverty in rural Arkansas does not have the same community, or even experience his "gayness" in the same way that a a gay woman of color living in the suburbs on Long Island does (just to pick two examples randomly). They may have a few shared experiences (the experience of homophobia, the experience of at one point being closeted), but they don't share a culture. They don't share a community.

I think that we've gotten to a point in America where a lot of us have forgotten that culture is supposed to be interactive. We pretend there's a homogenized American culture, or a unified gay culture, or whatever just because all our television comes from the same place, but culture is created by us with the people close to us, who share our values and passions.

[jgiannantoni05]

We pretend there's a homogenized American culture, or a unified gay culture, or whatever just because all our television comes from the same place
Well said, I agree.

Interesting discussion indeed.

[Zembo]

Well said, I agree.

Interesting discussion indeed.


*Snicker* Sorry, the thought of Lex Luthor from Smallville reading this thread is just very amusing somehow. Given how in the closet he seemed on that show..*snicker*

Not all gay folk like Wonder Woman. Not all like Batman. (Many like Batwoman). And I agree that your sexuality influences what you read. EVERYTHING does: your health, your looks, your career, your finances, your love life (or lack). It's the same reason there's no such thing as objectivity-we are influenced in a hundred little ways. Does being gay predispose you to like Wonder Woman? No. But it might influence you down the line to like her.

[DarkKnghtJared]

What's the use in being that reductive? Disqualifying levels of gayness based on whether one likes sports or a sport? Batman or Batgirl? Which, Batgirl is preferred?

There are gay cultures. There are many of them, some of them larger than others, some of them with bleeds into other cultures and overlapping tendencies and understandings. The only thing that unifies all gay people is a sexual interest in their own gender.

There are Bi, Gay, Lesbian, and Trans (sub)cultures, many of them. They are not defined and never should be defined, on a massive monocultural level, by what superhero they prefer or if they can name five football teams. I've watched more hockey with other bisexuals than I have with straight people, but I'm not going to define bisexuality on the basis of a love of hockey, mostly, because it doesn't gain us anything for me to do so.

I've seen suggestions here that it's an issue of fashion, of sexual attraction, of a shying away from violence, or "doing it for herself schlock" and, seriously, none of that has a thing to do with LGBT culture. It has to do with certain cultures, certain subcultures, queer or otherwise, but not every gay man is hip-deep in fashion (in fact, I assure you less aren' than are, and either end of that spectrum is just as gay as the other), every lesbian is not aroused by the teen girl with her mouth stitched over and the bat ears, and every trans person is not fierce. That's reductive thinking, not even essentialist, just reductive.

And, the suggestion that Bats may just be too violent is just plain weird and unexamined. Batman is too violent, but Clive Barker and Sade are fine? No more wire hangers, is fine? There may be a subset, a subculture or culture wherein the queer populace finds Batman too violent to bear, or individuals may find him and the comics about him to be such, but as something endemic to non-het sexuality?

...I'd add something to that, but you kinda got it down pat, so I'll just say, "I agree." :)

[neverman]

Somoneone, please explain to me why GLBT includes that "T". Gay, lesbian and bisexual people have a lot in common. But transgendered people? While a lot of transgendered people are gay or bisexual, there is a significant number who aren't. Isn't it inaccurate to those people to lump them in with people who are attracted to same sex?

[ryerye17]

Somoneone, please explain to me why GLBT includes that "T". Gay, lesbian and bisexual people have a lot in common. But transgendered people? While a lot of transgendered people are gay or bisexual, there is a significant number who aren't. Isn't it inaccurate to those people to lump them in with people who are attracted to same sex?

LGBT refers collectively to queer culture. In other words, anything that isn't predominantly heterosexual. Transgendered people do not identify as gay or bisexual. They're something different. They're trans.

[ryerye17]

I'm confused. You're telling me there's something wrong with these statements:

"The Tony Awards are gay."
"Gay Men don't eat that much sugar."
"Gay Men like Devil Wears Prada."

These are all mainstream. These are all spot-on.

I'm a homosexual man. And I agree with those statements. I don't think they're offensive. Is it offesive to say Black people like rap music? The Tony Awards ARE gay. Gay Men DON'T eat that much sugar. And Gay men LIKE Devil Wears Prada. I recently wrote a short story entitled "Gay Men Don't" which were basically a list of things gay people do and not do (Such as cry at the end of the movie "Fame") A part of that list is that Gay Men like Wonder Woman and not Batman.

[pariah-1972]

It sounds like you are a bit too obsessed with Stereotypes, there is all kinds of gay people out there and while the majority may agree on some things it's not good for them to be all lumped in together which makes it especially easy for things like homophobia to pop up.

Some of them may not even care about Wonder Woman or Batman.

[Ceridwen]

LGBT refers collectively to queer culture. In other words, anything that isn't predominantly heterosexual. Transgendered people do not identify as gay or bisexual. They're something different. They're trans.
Guh, honey, no. Plenty of trans people are gay or lesbian or bisexual in addition to being trans. Like me! I'm a trans woman. I'm also queer. If you wanted a more descriptive label, you could call me bisexual, but I like the word queer better. Also, your first assumption that LGBT means you're not heterosexual is false, cuz plenty of trans folk do identify as hetero or straight.

neverman, the reasons behind LGBT are mostly political, honestly, though some of them are personal. Part of it is that, in the past before there was such a word as "transgender," a lot of trans people just identified as gay because they didn't feel like they had any place else to go. Part of it is that even today, because there's less education about trans issues some people don't realize they're trans until much later in life, and so identify as gay for a while until they figure it out (and might still ID as gay afterward, just to be clear). And part of it is just that there aren't a lot of openly trans people out there (though that's changing), and so we've had to team up with gay people in order to have our struggles heard (though that hasn't always worked out so well for trans people).

[ryerye17]

Guh, honey, no. Plenty of trans people are gay or lesbian or bisexual in addition to being trans. Like me! I'm a trans woman. I'm also queer. If you wanted a more descriptive label, you could call me bisexual, but I like the word queer better. Also, your first assumption that LGBT means you're not heterosexual is false, cuz plenty of trans folk do identify as hetero or straight.

neverman, the reasons behind LGBT are mostly political, honestly, though some of them are personal. Part of it is that, in the past before there was such a word as "transgender," a lot of trans people just identified as gay because they didn't feel like they had any place else to go. Part of it is that even today, because there's less education about trans issues some people don't realize they're trans until much later in life, and so identify as gay for a while until they figure it out (and might still ID as gay afterward, just to be clear). And part of it is just that there aren't a lot of openly trans people out there (though that's changing), and so we've had to team up with gay people in order to have our struggles heard (though that hasn't always worked out so well for trans people).

Oh okay that's a good point. And I guess that's the reason "T" is separate instead of just LGB.

[Freakzeek]

I'm confused. You're telling me there's something wrong with these statements:

"The Tony Awards are gay."
"Gay Men don't eat that much sugar."
"Gay Men like Devil Wears Prada."

These are all mainstream. These are all spot-on.

I'm a homosexual man. And I agree with those statements. I don't think they're offensive. Is it offesive to say Black people like rap music? The Tony Awards ARE gay. Gay Men DON'T eat that much sugar. And Gay men LIKE Devil Wears Prada. I recently wrote a short story entitled "Gay Men Don't" which were basically a list of things gay people do and not do (Such as cry at the end of the movie "Fame") A part of that list is that Gay Men like Wonder Woman and not Batman.

Yes it's offensive to say Black People like rap music, some of us like Rock, Jazz, Blues(which we created, little richard,Ray charles, Robert Johnson), some like polka, some like bluegrass, some of us like death metal, some us like Israeli hymns, Some like Roma music, some like afro beat , some us like samba, some us like kumbia, some like country(hootie & the blowfish, Charlie pryde)



It's offensive to group any one group as a single collective entity which speaks for everyone regarding their views. Some gay people like Superman, Some like Wonderwoman, Some like Batman, you shouldn't generalize

[Captain Jim]

Just a reminder that this thread is supposed to be discussing Batman and LGBT. If it's just going to become a discussion of gay culture, it really belongs more on the Community board. :smile:

[ryerye17]

Just a reminder that this thread is supposed to be discussing Batman and LGBT. If it's just going to become a discussion of gay culture, it really belongs more on the Community board. :smile:
Oh okay fine. Let's bring it back on topic.

[NewMutant]

I only read the first and last page but...

I was having a conversation with a lot of friends recently.

And, as far as everyone I've talked to is concerned, gay people DON'T like Batman.

We all know Wonder Woman loves the gays and the gays love Wonder Woman.

1) ALL my heterosexual comic book friends READ Batman, or at least one book of it.
2) ALL my homosexual comic book friends DON'T like Batman, or even are remotely interested in him.
3) ALL my heterosexual non-comic book friends LIKE Batman (the movie, the TV show version, pop image)
4) ALL my homosexual non-comic book friends still PREFER Wonder Woman over Batman any day of the week.

TO THE EXTENT, that I, as a comic book fan, really didn't think Dark Knight was that good, but all my heterosexual non-comic friends were "OMG, that was kick-ass!"

And they wondered why I didn't like it.

I was just wondering - why don't the gays love Batman?

My personal thing is that there's just nothing...fun about the entire Bat family. Even Cassandra Cain has a horridly unflattering outfit.

Huntress' is pretty though. Batwoman's outfit is pretty. Zatanna's outfit is pretty. Black Canary's outfit is pretty. Wonder Woman's outfit is pretty. Question's is ugly, but who's counting?



(At the very least, Flash and Green Lantern, and even Superman are neutral values. We don't necessarily like-like them but we don't un-like them, except for Hal Jordan who we don't like....and Kyle Rayner who we just adore)

I never knew that Batman did not appeal to gay readers. If anything his "relationship" with Robin is mocked in a way that would appeal to gay readers.

I would say comics are "typically" favored by straight males. But I was never aware that gay comic fans favored certain series over another. Aside from maybe giving a female solo book more a chance. Wonder Woman, whom is a public (non-comic fan) symbol of a strong independant woman is popular among gay culture, but that doesn't mean all those people read her book.

Honestly I was unaware that X-Men had a high volume of gay fans till joining CBR, and I've posted on other boards. I can see the relation, but its a universal appeal.

I love Batman. And I think bringing up the Midnighter comparison works well. And the Bat World. It is really the only part of the DC universe I am interested in. That said, I do really like Huntress and Harley Quinn.


I used to have many debates with a gay male co-worker, who was a huge comic fan, over the best hero. I, a straight dude, have always been way into Batman. He hated Batman with a passion, ripping on everything about him from his suit to lack of superpowers. Most homosexuals I've talked to about comics, and I have talked to quite a few, love Superman and Storm from the X-Men.
I think heterosexual males dig Batman because he's a man's man, playboy ladies man by day badass by night. He has cool toys and gadgets and a awesome clubhouse. What it all comes down to is the utility belt, it's a guy thing. Function over Fashion, the definition of straight.

I hate Superman.

Wolverine is man's man as well and he is popular among gays.

Just, no.

I honestly find Batman to be one of the most tolerable parts of the DCU and I really enjoy the satellite books and characters like BoP, Batwoman and Catwoman. I'm also loving current Green Lantern, including both Hal (who we hate?) and Kyle. On the other hand, I absolutely despise the Superman family and hate it with a fashion, I don't think much of the Flash and find the Marvel family (outside Black Adam/Isis) to be cringe worthy. I also don't much like the martians, who, apart from Miss Martian, come across as mind numbing.

I do, however, like Titans and Wonder Woman, as well as random characters around the DCU such as Manhunter (now a part of the Bat family) and Blue Beetle.

Basically, all the stuff you say that -we- are neutral on, I hate and the thing you think we hate I happen to like.

Amen.

I'm a gay guy, and I vastly prefer Batman to Wonder Woman. I've read tons of Batman comics, but maybe four or five Wonder Woman. (But if we are talking about TV shows. Lynda Carter as Wonder Woman did rock my world!)

Agreed. Wonder Woman is a snooze fest. Batman rocks.

I'm confused. You're telling me there's something wrong with these statements:

"The Tony Awards are gay."
"Gay Men don't eat that much sugar."
"Gay Men like Devil Wears Prada."

These are all mainstream. These are all spot-on.

I'm a homosexual man. And I agree with those statements. I don't think they're offensive. Is it offesive to say Black people like rap music? The Tony Awards ARE gay. Gay Men DON'T eat that much sugar. And Gay men LIKE Devil Wears Prada. I recently wrote a short story entitled "Gay Men Don't" which were basically a list of things gay people do and not do (Such as cry at the end of the movie "Fame") A part of that list is that Gay Men like Wonder Woman and not Batman.

Those are not spot-on at all. Those are stereotypes. And the sugar thing is the most rediculous thing I've heard. I get what you are trying to say, but no.

[neverman]

Just a reminder that this thread is supposed to be discussing Batman and LGBT. If it's just going to become a discussion of gay culture, it really belongs more on the Community board. :smile:

Can you move the thread there? Or do we need to start a totally new one?

[Sean Whitmore]

Can you move the thread there? Or do we need to start a totally new one?

We could, but we'd prefer not to, since the OP started the thread here for a reason.


SEAN

[elikal]

I was having a conversation with a lot of friends recently.

And, as far as everyone I've talked to is concerned, gay people DON'T like Batman.

We all know Wonder Woman loves the gays and the gays love Wonder Woman.

1) ALL my heterosexual comic book friends READ Batman, or at least one book of it.
2) ALL my homosexual comic book friends DON'T like Batman, or even are remotely interested in him.
3) ALL my heterosexual non-comic book friends LIKE Batman (the movie, the TV show version, pop image)
4) ALL my homosexual non-comic book friends still PREFER Wonder Woman over Batman any day of the week.

TO THE EXTENT, that I, as a comic book fan, really didn't think Dark Knight was that good, but all my heterosexual non-comic friends were "OMG, that was kick-ass!"

And they wondered why I didn't like it.

I was just wondering - why don't the gays love Batman?

My personal thing is that there's just nothing...fun about the entire Bat family. Even Cassandra Cain has a horridly unflattering outfit.

Huntress' is pretty though. Batwoman's outfit is pretty. Zatanna's outfit is pretty. Black Canary's outfit is pretty. Wonder Woman's outfit is pretty. Question's is ugly, but who's counting?



(At the very least, Flash and Green Lantern, and even Superman are neutral values. We don't necessarily like-like them but we don't un-like them, except for Hal Jordan who we don't like....and Kyle Rayner who we just adore)


Sorry, that is total bollocks! I am gay and I love Batman! He is the coolest Superhero. (And just for the record: no my sexual preferrence is NOT hunky muscular men, I prefer them slim and youthful.) I don't like or dislike heroes based on such arbitrary things like what manly stereotype. And I know enough gay people who love their men hunky.

And no I don't like Wonder Woman. Not that I dislike her but I never found her particularly interesting. I always liked dark/broken heroes more. I lover Wolverine, and he DEFINITELY is the opposite of the sort of man I would be attracted to.

Sorry, but this idea is total BS, OP. If that observation of your private friends is true, it is a mere coincidence. Every gay or straight person is different in what he/she likes. =P


I mean, sure like every person I too have chars I like because I find them sexy as well. I guess most comic readers have their crushes. Straight males may have their heroine of dreams, straigh women theirs, and so have gay men. But I still can find a male hero cool who is not like me or the man I would like! (I am not so sure about straight males, hrhr... no, j/k.^^) For instance, right now I am playing Batman Arkham Asylum and I LOVE it. I don't find Wonder Woman interesting mainly because she is too "light-side", like I find Superman not interesting. Or I like Green Arrow, because he is witty and has a social conscience - things which had nada to do with my sexuality. Or I learned to adore Captain America because of this integrity in the Civil War event. No... I think my likes and dislikes are as complex as anyone else's.

[pariah-1972]

I come across an article on wikipedia that was about LGBT issues in comics and it said that Batman is considered a gay icon in some circles because of Werthams accusations made them sympathize with him.

[Pól Rua]

I know, right? Pleather bodysuits went out of style with the Matrix sequels.

Modesty Blaise and Emma Peel NEVER go out of fashion.
Matrix? Please.

[InSovietRussia]

I come across an article on wikipedia that was about LGBT issues in comics and it said that Batman is considered a gay icon in some circles because of Werthams accusations made them sympathize with him.

Having read my fair share of those old Batman books, I sometimes wonder if the writers weren't occasionally slipping gay references in just for the hell of it. Sure, a lot of the stuff that looks funny in retrospect is just a matter of language and accepted norms changing with time, but if you browse around a site like Superdickery, you start to notice that some of the stuff is either the result of the most unlikely series of coincidences ever, or the writers/artists having a laugh on the sly.

[AiyokuSama]

the writers/artists having a laugh on the sly.

Having read many of the older comics, that wouldn't surprise me at all :biggrin: