Batman #691 Previews & Discussions (SPOILER)

[SpideyZERO]

BATMAN double-ships this month as Two-Face and the new Batman throw down in the Batcave. And the fight is a vicious one, but just as Two-Face begins to get the upper hand...Batman shows up?

The final chapter of Dick Grayson's first adventure as Batman is a can't-miss!

http://comics.ign.com/articles/103/1032968p1.html

To the fans of the Two Face Batsuit, too bad, it's just hallucinations. I like it myself too. Looking forward to this issue!

[Jake V]

Well, at least Two-Face's Batman costume was explained.

[DetectiveDupin]

Well, it's action oriented, but man oh man and I'm tired of people being in the batcave. And I can't believe it's not Ultimate Spider-man.

[AJM]

A hallucination? Oh dear.

I only saw the first two pages because IGN previews are f****ing infuriating.

[Sean Walsh]

The final chapter of Dick Grayson's first adventure as Batman is a can't-miss!

Really? 'Cause Morrison & Quitely's first B&R arc ended before this one. :wink: :tongue:

[BloodOps]

Well..the art looks very well done.

[nepenthes]

....Two Face apparently wants to talk about masks and identity

[Doc Goblin]

Well, the explanation of the Two-Face Batman costume is a relief. Actually using that out of nowhere seemed like it would be pretty stupid.

Looks like this will be a great issue. I like that it's Two-Face who's calling Dick out on not being the same Batman.

[IvCNuB4]

I liked the crazy red-n-blue black costume. Reminded me of one of those villains from Battle Of The Planets/G-Force or something like that :biggrin:

Poor Dick is getting kicked around almost as much Donna Troy did when she tried to be Wonder Woman for those 3 whole issues during Heinberg's run ....

[Karl O'Neill]

Looks spiffy.

I have enjoyed this arc so far.

Hope daniels does a good follow up.

[DetectiveDupin]

Is it too much to ask that Dick not get his ass kicked everytime before he inevitably wins? Like wasn't this the same story in Nightwing?

[WorstThingUS]

Is it too much to ask that Dick not get his ass kicked everytime before he inevitably wins? Like wasn't this the same story in Nightwing?

And on what planet is Two Face suddenly some great fighter that he can beat someone like Dick Grayson? Please tell me he's been drugged or something.

Update: Okay, saw the drugs. Whew. That would have been bad even for Winnick.

[Karl O'Neill]

Update: Okay, saw the drugs. Whew. That would have been bad even for Winnick.

It's good to see people are actively gunning for Winnick.

It's the complete opposite with morrison, No matter what he does,it's genuius:biggrin: (I am one of these guys)

[strictlymonster]

To the fans of the Two Face Batsuit, too bad, it's just hallucinations. I like it myself too. Looking forward to this issue!

Funny for just a hallucination, they are making a action figure of it.

[BloodOps]

Well it looks like we won't get any Two-Face for a while. Overall the issue was average, a nice cliffhanger ending though.

I'm just glad Winnicks run is over, wasn't really impressed by anything.

[RonnieThunderbolts]

Well it looks like we won't get any Two-Face for a while. Overall the issue was average, a nice cliffhanger ending though.

I'm just glad Winnicks run is over, wasn't really impressed by anything.

It isn't over, he's returning after the arc by Tony Daniel.

[DetectiveDupin]

It isn't over, he's returning after the arc by Tony Daniel.

That's horrible news. They should give it to Tomasi instead.

[BloodOps]

It isn't over, he's returning after the arc by Tony Daniel.

I did not know this....


...crap.

[nepenthes]

It isn't over, he's returning after the arc by Tony Daniel.

first I've heard of this as well :frown:

Why the hell is Tomasi not on this title? the book is basically Nightwing anyway

[RonnieThunderbolts]

From a Newsarma interview (http://www.newsarama.com/comics/090807-winick-batman.html)...


I know where Tony's going and he knows where I'm going to end up in the next story.

The next major arc I do is somewhat self-contained and quick. It takes place over a short period of time. I'm still working on it, so it's between five and six issues. No, it's not a break so much as Tony's coming in to do his arc while I'm working on the next one. We're getting a major jump on things.

That was posted back in August, and I think Didio addressed questions at Newsarama before San Diego's Comicon saying the same thing when asked about Tony Daniel replacing Judd Winick, Didio had said that it wasn't the case.

I'd mistakenly thought it was more well known Judd would be back at this point, but there you go.

[Doug Side]

One part made me laugh:

Dick: I'm... Batman!

Two-face: NO, YOUR NOT! *kicks him in the gut*

[SpideyZERO]

Anyone can give some short summary of this issue?

[Sn4tcH]

Anyone can give some short summary of this issue?

Two-Face shot and killed Dick Grayson (RIP)

[taintedshimmer]

Anyone can give some short summary of this issue?

Dick and Alfred pull some smoke and mirrors to defeat Two Face. Two Face is sprung by Black Mask, who gives him the Join Me or Get Lost. He decides to get lost. Dick packs up the cave as it's too open and not secure now he operates from the bunker. He goes to take out Jasons case and finds a data stick hidden in it with his parents murder file and doesn't know why Bruce would do that. Cue dramatic music.

[Doug Side]

Which dosn't make a lot of sense seeing as how oracle is in the cave now but whatever.

[dreyga2000]

LOL... After that debate we had about Batman's anti-teleportation defenses... turns out Bats did have them all along...

[Desaad]

Two-Face shot and killed Dick Grayson (RIP)

Hahaha, I lol'd, you ass. :)

[SpideyZERO]

A good read, but I'm a bit let down by the resolution. I was expecting more of Batman and Two Face throw down in the Batcave but it was resolved quickly and rescued by Alfred. I was hoping Dick can pull through it by himself. Oh well. At least he convinced Two Face that he is the real Batman.

Batman did have teleport defense and Two Face has been trying to get into the cave for years. The only reason he succeed this time was the cave was no longer used and the defense was shut down. I thought it was pretty smart.

Nice cliffhanger too. The secret case file. Is it about the murder of Dick's parents, or something connected to Jason? Very interesting

Overall, a nice and entertaining arc by Winnick and Bagley. I can't shake off the feeling that this arc was heavily editorial-mandated because nothing conclusive came out. The bad guys Dick fought got away, Two Face got away thanks to Black Mask, Dick didn't really capture any bad guys in this arc. It is as thought as the arc was simply set up just for Tony Daniel's upcoming arc. I hope it is worth it.

[Godlike13]

Im sorry but thank god this arc is over. Heres hoping this whole Batman learning curve thing Winick was trying to get across is over, now hopefully we can move on. The reveal at the end wasn't too bad and Winick will probably come back to it after Daniel's run. I just hope that he writes Dick better, and much more capable. No more of this learning curve shit shoved at us, and please no more Alfred bail outs.

[Pareidol]

I know we'll find out eventually, but I realllllly want to know who the current Black Mask is.

I'm certainly intrigued with the end of the issue. I have no idea where it's going. Anyone have any ideas?

[Scott Taylor]

I didn't really mind the Alfred bailout. He's done that for Bruce a few times as well. And I'm not convinced Two-Face would know that Batman is Batman. For all he could deduce, there are two Batmans with the real one staying somewhat secluded and the fake one being out in public.

[Sn4tcH]

So I'm fairly certain this whole arc happened before Batman & Robin even started.

[Kiryu]

So I'm fairly certain this whole arc happened before Batman & Robin even started.

Even though Alfred mentions "So begins in earnest, your first week as Batman".

And even though Gordon's cops ask him why he goes and turns the bat-signal on every night because Batman hasn't been seen in months? Which wouldn't make sense considering footage of Batman is on every news channel in Winick's arc?

[Red Lotus]

I wonder what this new mystery about Dick's parents are going to be and what Bruce was trying to hide from him.

[CocktailXYZ]

So I'm fairly certain this whole arc happened before Batman & Robin even started.

Where would you say Batgirl fits in? Oracle seems to have set up shop in the cave, but Alf and Dick cleaned it out at the end of this arc.

[Sn4tcH]

Perhaps Babs put up her own set up in the cave? (Upon second look, all the costumes are still set up)

This will be something that will just have to be ignored to save our sanity.

[Godlike13]

I didn't really mind the Alfred bailout. He's done that for Bruce a few times as well.

An Alfred bailout here or there is ok but he already did it in the fight with Clayface. When the arc has only two big fights and Al has to bailout Batman in both of them then somethings wrong. Why didn't they just make him Robin then. Plus how did he get to the cave so fast?

[nepenthes]

when was the last good Clayface story anyway?

[Sn4tcH]

when was the last good Clayface story anyway?

Mud Pack? Seriously...

[Lemurion]

I really wanted to like this arc more than I did, but the plot holes did me in.

So Two-Face has been studying Batman's recent appearances and deduced someone else is in the costume. So far so good, it makes sense - and with Bruce having turned Gotham over to Harvey before OYL, I can see why he would be interested in who replaced "his" Batman.

My first problem is that this essentially ignores Prodigal (where he was a major villain) - which afaik, is still canon. Harvey has fought a Dick Grayson Batman before, so why can't he see that it's the same "Batman" he fought then? This isn't some generic "new guy" in the suit - it's Batman the way he was right after Knightfall.

Also, Harvey knows Nightwing. He played a major part in the last arc of Nightwing and now he's expected to not tell that this guy he's been studying so intently is the same guy? Even though it's someone he's watched grow up?

It doesn't make any sense at all that Harvey doesn't make either connection: Not to Dick's previous tour as Batman, nor to the fact that the "new" Batman moves just like Nightwing. Or are we to understand that Dick moved just like Bruce in Prodigal, but doesn't now: but doesn't move like Nightwing either?

Harvey's smarter than that.

[Teatime Brutality]

Even though Alfred mentions "So begins in earnest, your first week as Batman".

And even though Gordon's cops ask him why he goes and turns the bat-signal on every night because Batman hasn't been seen in months? Which wouldn't make sense considering footage of Batman is on every news channel in Winick's arc?

Winnick's story jumps forward two weeks in its first issue... Batman and Robin #1-3 fits in that gap quite nicely. I had a go at thrashing this all out on my blog. (http://teatimebrutality.blogspot.com/)

Where would you say Batgirl fits in? Oracle seems to have set up shop in the cave, but Alf and Dick cleaned it out at the end of this arc.

Though by Batgirl #2 then there's an expectation there that the cave will be cleared out...Steph wonders how Dick is going to move the penny.

I'd say that Batgirl #1-3 either has to be happening concurrently with Winnick's arc...either after the boys have moved to the bunker and before Two-Face's cave invasion, or after Dick's decision to clear it out, but before the actual clear out took place. Steph's line makes me opt for the later setting, but how things go from here in Batgirl might change my mind.

I hope they find a way to keep the idea of Babs operating out of the cave though. It reminds me of that time in Friends when the boys and girls swapped apartments.

[numberONE]

Story: My favorite issue of the arc, but the cliffhanger was the best part. There wasn't as much dialogue which helped - the first two issues were two wordy.

Art: Not a fan of it. I'm looking forward to Tony Daniel's return. Will Tony being doing the art on Winnick's second arc?


I hope they find a way to keep the idea of Babs operating out of the cave though.

I do, too. Thanks for clearing-up the chronology for me.

[Godlike13]

Will Tony being doing the art on Winnick's second arc?

Probably not. Im guessing that he'll be doing the next arc after that.

[BooCoo]

I'm really curious about that secret, myself. Some truth about Dicky we didn't know? *snickers*

[DetectiveDupin]

That whole idea that Bruce hid something from Dick? THIS is why I detest Winick's writing. He's writing Bruce bad and he's not even alive.

[Shush]

I didn't have a problem with Winnicks writing. More with the fact that this arc was boring and pointless. All the important events are occuring in B&R while the Batman title seems like filler.

[carabas]

That whole idea that Bruce hid something from Dick? THIS is why I detest Winick's writing. He's writing Bruce bad and he's not even alive.We don't know the story here.
It's likely that he not so much hid it but specifically placed it there to be found by him. We do'nt eeven know what it is that was hidden. He might actually have a very good reason to do so.

Query: does anyone know if Tony Daniel's arc is stand-alone and therefore skippable?

[Tequilamokinbrd]

I really wanted to like this arc more than I did, but the plot holes did me in.

So Two-Face has been studying Batman's recent appearances and deduced someone else is in the costume. So far so good, it makes sense - and with Bruce having turned Gotham over to Harvey before OYL, I can see why he would be interested in who replaced "his" Batman.

My first problem is that this essentially ignores Prodigal (where he was a major villain) - which afaik, is still canon. Harvey has fought a Dick Grayson Batman before, so why can't he see that it's the same "Batman" he fought then? This isn't some generic "new guy" in the suit - it's Batman the way he was right after Knightfall.

Also, Harvey knows Nightwing. He played a major part in the last arc of Nightwing and now he's expected to not tell that this guy he's been studying so intently is the same guy? Even though it's someone he's watched grow up?

It doesn't make any sense at all that Harvey doesn't make either connection: Not to Dick's previous tour as Batman, nor to the fact that the "new" Batman moves just like Nightwing. Or are we to understand that Dick moved just like Bruce in Prodigal, but doesn't now: but doesn't move like Nightwing either?

Harvey's smarter than that.



Pretty much sums up how I feel......I'm thinking back to those scenes in Nightwing where Two-Face & Dick are talking and it is made VERY clear that Harvey knows that he was Robin, and not because he was told or something, but because Harvey recognized Nightwing as the same kid he fought years ago as Robin....

Harvey recognized this guy through two costumes(Robin & Nightwing), has been fighting him since he was 12 and even fought him in the Batman costume before, he figured out that the real Batman may be dead after all because of his sudden change in attitude and method, he was able to do something to this Batman that he was NEVER able to do to the other and actually make it in the cave, he worked very closely with Bruce as Batman not only in the beginning when Harvey was D.A., but even more reccently when Bruce trained him to protect Gotham, and few villians would actually be able to say they have the extensive knowledge Harvey has to tell the difference between Bruce & Dick(save obviously Jason Todd)



Harvey has all those pieces of the puzzle, and he's fooled by Batman dummies & a Alfred and Dick light show?


It almost read like Judd wanted to have Harvey figure everything out, but DC said no & we got that last issue. I'm not saying that's what happened, but it reads like that because there's no other explanation for Harvey suddenly losing all of his intelligence at the end.


When reading this story, I was reminded very much of Winnick's Under The Hood. A story that I enjoyed very much despite the horrible things people say about Winnick. I remember when I was reading that, there was a lot of, "Is DC really gonna do it & bring Jason back?" sentiment going around. People were saying things like, "Whoever it is could be working as an agent of The Joker because the Joker was The Red Hood" and other crazy things that make you lol in retrospect.

If I could say that this story had a question running through it similar to "is it really Jason" in Under The Hood, I'd say it was, "Does Harvey know that Dick is Batman and Bruce was?", or at the very least, "Does Harvey know that Batman is dead & that Nightwing's taken his place?"


I would have liked it to be yes to the first question, but certainly would have enjoyed it being yes to the second as well.


But the answer was "No, he knows nothing, and he's going to end up under the thumb of the Black Mask", for me, that was like if Under The Hood ended with the answer being "Nope it's not Jason, it's a robot duplicate sent to torment Bruce by Ra's".



Don't go down a road if you don't intend on following it all the way through.

[Fatguy]

I'm very glad to see the end of Winnick and Bagley's run. Though, I fear I may be in for more boredom with Tony Daniel incoming...

[Kasper Cole]

Is there gonna be a single story involving Dick that doesn't involve writers showing how inferior he is to Bruce?

I mean seriously, out of everyone Bruce ever trained Dick is looking the least capable right now.

[Godlike13]

Is there gonna be a single story involving Dick that doesn't involve writers showing how inferior he is to Bruce?

I mean seriously, out of everyone Bruce ever trained Dick is looking the least capable right now.

IMO the only one who has really done that is Winick. Every where else Dick is, for the most part, written very capable.

[Karl O'Neill]

This arc was only okay.

I think the teleporter aspect of it ruined it a bit for me. I do like all types of batman stories but this was going well the way it was until judd brought in the teleporting into the batcave thing.

Other than that. I really liked the fight in the cave and alfred's helping dick grayson out and the art was stellar as always.

[Choppa]

I really wanted to like this arc more than I did, but the plot holes did me in.

So Two-Face has been studying Batman's recent appearances and deduced someone else is in the costume. So far so good, it makes sense - and with Bruce having turned Gotham over to Harvey before OYL, I can see why he would be interested in who replaced "his" Batman.

My first problem is that this essentially ignores Prodigal (where he was a major villain) - which afaik, is still canon. Harvey has fought a Dick Grayson Batman before, so why can't he see that it's the same "Batman" he fought then? This isn't some generic "new guy" in the suit - it's Batman the way he was right after Knightfall.

Also, Harvey knows Nightwing. He played a major part in the last arc of Nightwing and now he's expected to not tell that this guy he's been studying so intently is the same guy? Even though it's someone he's watched grow up?

It doesn't make any sense at all that Harvey doesn't make either connection: Not to Dick's previous tour as Batman, nor to the fact that the "new" Batman moves just like Nightwing. Or are we to understand that Dick moved just like Bruce in Prodigal, but doesn't now: but doesn't move like Nightwing either?

Harvey's smarter than that.

This is Batman, continuity went out the window years ago. Read Marvel for that.

[Greg Anderson]

I really wanted to like this arc more than I did, but the plot holes did me in.

So Two-Face has been studying Batman's recent appearances and deduced someone else is in the costume. So far so good, it makes sense - and with Bruce having turned Gotham over to Harvey before OYL, I can see why he would be interested in who replaced "his" Batman.

My first problem is that this essentially ignores Prodigal (where he was a major villain) - which afaik, is still canon. Harvey has fought a Dick Grayson Batman before, so why can't he see that it's the same "Batman" he fought then? This isn't some generic "new guy" in the suit - it's Batman the way he was right after Knightfall.

Also, Harvey knows Nightwing. He played a major part in the last arc of Nightwing and now he's expected to not tell that this guy he's been studying so intently is the same guy? Even though it's someone he's watched grow up?

It doesn't make any sense at all that Harvey doesn't make either connection: Not to Dick's previous tour as Batman, nor to the fact that the "new" Batman moves just like Nightwing. Or are we to understand that Dick moved just like Bruce in Prodigal, but doesn't now: but doesn't move like Nightwing either?

Harvey's smarter than that.

I thought I was the only one thinking that. This issue almost made no sense to me given that the very last time we saw Harvey and Dick together, it was a given that Harvey knew that Dick was both Robin and Nightwing and after studying this new Batman, he didn't know that this is the same guy? Two-Face is suppose to be Dick's Joker and as mentioned, Harv is much smarter than this.

I'm guessing the writer of this issue didn't do much research on the character before writing him.

[nepenthes]

I have a feeling Winick simply didn't care about this arc too much. It reads like he just slapped it together in a weekend and figured people would buy it no matter what. It's not Dick/TwoFace is the only lacking dimension here...there's not much happening below the surface at all.

I'm basing this of Winicks previous stuff in Under the Hood which almost seems to be a different writer


.

[carabas]

I have a feeling Winick simply didn't care about this arc too much. It reads like he just slapped it together in a weekend and figured people would buy it no matter what. It's not Dick/TwoFace is the only lacking dimension here...there's not much happening below the surface at all.

I'm basing this of Winicks previous stuff in Under the Hood which almost seems to be a different writer.I feel this happens a lot. It's the monthly grind. There needs to be 22 pages of comic each month, no matter what, regardles if anyone hasa good idea what to fill those pages with.
And it's worse for characters like Batman and Superman, because they need at leats 66 or more pages filled.

[AiyokuSama]

You know, given all the complaints about Dick supposedly being incompetent in comparison to Bruce, the Alfred bail out, etc. it seems to me that people are missing a rather fundamental point: Dick's learning Batman the same as Bruce did. In his early days Bruce got complacent and someone took advantage of that. It happens.

Yes, Dick is a hero in his own right, and a damned fine one. But Gotham is a very different ballgame from bouncing around the universe, trying to clean up Bludhaven or being one of many masks in New York. As if that's not enough, he also has to be Batman, who isn't Nightwing, who has different priorities, different ways of operating, different reasoning.

Winick has done a very good job of showing the conflicts and problems this has and will cause. He's also shown that Dick deals with them and over comes them. Some are likely to come back and bite him in the butt, which is human enough. But over all, I don't think Dick has been written as incompetent. He's not Bruce. That's a fact, not a failing.

I'm looking forward to what Winick has in store when he returns. Dick is growing into his new role and it's a lot of fun to watch.

[Kasper Cole]

You know, given all the complaints about Dick supposedly being incompetent in comparison to Bruce, the Alfred bail out, etc. it seems to me that people are missing a rather fundamental point: Dick's learning Batman the same as Bruce did. In his early days Bruce got complacent and someone took advantage of that. It happens.

Yes, Dick is a hero in his own right, and a damned fine one. But Gotham is a very different ballgame from bouncing around the universe, trying to clean up Bludhaven or being one of many masks in New York. As if that's not enough, he also has to be Batman, who isn't Nightwing, who has different priorities, different ways of operating, different reasoning.

Winick has done a very good job of showing the conflicts and problems this has and will cause. He's also shown that Dick deals with them and over comes them. Some are likely to come back and bite him in the butt, which is human enough. But over all, I don't think Dick has been written as incompetent. He's not Bruce. That's a fact, not a failing.

I'm looking forward to what Winick has in store when he returns. Dick is growing into his new role and it's a lot of fun to watch.

For one thing, Bludhaven was WORSE than Gotham. Secondly, standing in for Bruce is not something new to Dick.

[carabas]

You know, given all the complaints about Dick supposedly being incompetent in comparison to Bruce, the Alfred bail out, etc. it seems to me that people are missing a rather fundamental point: Dick's learning Batman the same as Bruce did. In his early days Bruce got complacent and someone took advantage of that. It happens.And wasn't this story supposed to be part of Battle For The Cowl rather than Batman Reborn anyway?

[AiyokuSama]

And wasn't this story supposed to be part of Battle For The Cowl rather than Batman Reborn anyway?

Something like that. I seem to recall mention that Winick's ideas for BftC would have gone far beyond three issues. Instead those ideas have been spread over multiple books. Of course what they are and what books they are in, we don't know.

[AiyokuSama]

For one thing, Bludhaven was WORSE than Gotham. Secondly, standing in for Bruce is not something new to Dick.

Bludhaven was supposedly "dirtier" but in some ways that made it a lot more simple, more black and white. In the various Reborn books, we're seeing the many shades of grey that is Gotham. So the two aren't the same.

As for standing in for Bruce, it was temporary in the past. As far as dick knows, Bruce is dead. That's a huge psychological difference right there. A difference that Winick has handled well.

[Kasper Cole]

Bludhaven was supposedly "dirtier" but in some ways that made it a lot more simple, more black and white. In the various Reborn books, we're seeing the many shades of grey that is Gotham. So the two aren't the same.

As for standing in for Bruce, it was temporary in the past. As far as dick knows, Bruce is dead. That's a huge psychological difference right there. A difference that Winick has handled well.

I'm still not buying it. Dick is more than capable both mentally and physically to be Batman and stand in for Bruce in protecting Gotham. The only thing that should be giving Dick any trouble is the Detective work, because he's never been as good as Bruce or Tim at that. Everything else should be old hat by now to Dick....This self doubt stuff just doesn't make sense to many people.

[AiyokuSama]

Hmmmm...that didn't work. Blasted interwebs. See below.

[AiyokuSama]

I'm still not buying it. Dick is more than capable both mentally and physically to be Batman and stand in for Bruce in protecting Gotham.

I've never said he wasn't capable. I said he's not Bruce.

The only thing that should be giving Dick any trouble is the Detective work, because he's never been as good as Bruce or Tim at that. Everything else should be old hat by now to Dick....This self doubt stuff just doesn't make sense to many people.

It doesn't make sense that he's in mourning because he lost his father? It doesn't makes sense he has doubts about being as good as Bruce? It doesn't make sense that he's feeling his way in what he sees as his new role in life?

Seriously? All of the above plays on previously established themes and past events with the character. Is he the same resentful guy that went to Bludhaven on Bruce's orders? No. but that doesn't mean all the issues we say there have vanished into thin air.

Honestly, it seems to me that some people would rather see how Dick is supposedly being disrespected rather then looking at how everything he has gone through is being respected.

[Kasper Cole]

It doesn't make sense that he's in mourning because he lost his father? It doesn't makes sense he has doubts about being as good as Bruce? It doesn't make sense that he's feeling his way in what he sees as his new role in life?

First, I wouldn't go as far as to call Bruce his father. Bruce is more like a much older brother to Dick. He's a father figure to Tim, but not Dick.

Dick being in mourning and having doubts that he can be as good as Bruce doesn't mean he should be shown to have little to no detective skills and be beaten senseless by Two-Face needing an assist from Alfred. There are basic things that Dick is being shown as overlooking.

Seriously? All of the above plays on previously established themes and past events with the character. Is he the same resentful guy that went to Bludhaven on Bruce's orders? No. but that doesn't mean all the issues we say there have vanished into thin air.

In Prodigal Dick was shown as being way better than he's been shown here. Yes he had his doubts about himself but he wasn't being shown as piss poor detective and a punching bag either.

[AiyokuSama]

First, I wouldn't go as far as to call Bruce his father. Bruce is more like a much older brother to Dick. He's a father figure to Tim, but not Dick.

Sure seemed fatherly to me when the adoption went through, but that is a minor quibble. The point is that someone who meant so much to Dick is (supposedly) dead, and that's had an effect on him.

Dick being in mourning and having doubts that he can be as good as Bruce doesn't mean he should be shown to have little to no detective skills and be beaten senseless by Two-Face needing an assist from Alfred. There are basic things that Dick is being shown as overlooking.

Who said he had no detective skills? One's detective skills is not an either or proposition. As for Two-Face, that's a ghost from his own past.

Dick has overlooked basic teachings in the past, but then, that's human. Bruce has done the same, and paid the price, which brings me back to my point of Dick's growth into Batman mirroring Bruce's own.

In Prodigal Dick was shown as being way better than he's been shown here. Yes he had his doubts about himself but he wasn't being shown as piss poor detective and a punching bag either.

He was even worse in regards to Two-Face in Prodigal, actively second guessing himself when facing the man.

You seem to be treating Dick's taking on Batman as nothing more then a change in costume. What I like about Winick's portrayal is he shows how it's so much more then that, how it effects Dick and how he's growing because of it.

[Jorriss]

Sure seemed fatherly to me when the adoption went through, but that is a minor quibble. The point is that someone who meant so much to Dick is (supposedly) dead, and that's had an effect on him.
I don't see how someone can say Bruce is more of a father to Tim than Dick. I'm not really adding anything here but I agree with you, Bruce is definitely Dick's father at this point.

[nepenthes]

I feel this happens a lot. It's the monthly grind. There needs to be 22 pages of comic each month, no matter what, regardles if anyone hasa good idea what to fill those pages with.
And it's worse for characters like Batman and Superman, because they need at leats 66 or more pages filled.

Yeah I know. it's just that i don't expect fill for a print quota to be published in the Batman title, and I didn't expect it coming from Winick either. I wonder if the editors decided to move Tony Daniel forward when they saw these scripts coming in. Giving Winick enough time to pull his act together.

[David Walton]

Loved this issue, and I continue to enjoy Winick's Batman even more than Morrison's B&R.

[Ben Reilly#6]

In Prodigal Dick was shown as being way better than he's been shown here. Yes he had his doubts about himself but he wasn't being shown as piss poor detective and a punching bag either.

True, but I think there's A LOT more pressure here than when he filled in for Bruce before. Not to mention the circumstances prior to each outing. Before he had to work through relationship problems and being ousted from the team he lead since he was a teenager. At least beforehand he had some aggression he could work off, and everything was fairly normal in Gotham around that time. Maybe it's just me, but I think the death of a mentor/father figure/big brother figure is a lot harder to deal with, ontop of how (more) chaotic the city's become.

Also, should we forget how easily Dick walked into a trap set by the Tally Man back in Prodigal? True, he was able to get out of it on his own, but Tally Man never broke into the Batcave, now did he?

[David Walton]

True, but I think there's A LOT more pressure here than when he filled in for Bruce before.

I agree. Before, Dick was filling in for Bruce with the understanding that he'd be back. I think Dick's decision to evacuate the cave really drives home the point that he's struggling to recreate the role, which is a lot harder than filling in.

And I think Dick comes across well in this story. Yeah, he needs Alfred's help, but he adjust pretty quick and understands what needs to be done as soon as he gets the adrenalin. Dick's not the planner that Bruce was, but he certainly has an admirable ability to make decisions on the fly.

[AiyokuSama]

And I think Dick comes across well in this story. Yeah, he needs Alfred's help, but he adjust pretty quick and understands what needs to be done as soon as he gets the adrenalin. Dick's not the planner that Bruce was, but he certainly has an admirable ability to make decisions on the fly.

I think that Dick is actually more adaptable then Bruce and that it's one of his great strengths.

[David Walton]

I think that Dick is actually more adaptable then Bruce and that it's one of his great strengths.

You're probably right. One thing that TDK drove home is the point that Batman doesn't necessarily handle what he can't anticipate very well--something I think which has been a dominant interpretation going back as far as Year One.