Is what Batman does actually illegal?

[show name]

Might seem like a funny question given that in the comics he's often been on the run from the cops...but I'm wondering if in the real world are Batman's activities considered illegal?

Is it actually against the law to beat up heavily armed criminals with your bare hands while preventing them from committing a crime? I remember how the Bernhard Goetz thing went down in the 80s, but that involved lethal force with a gun against (apparently) unarmed guys who had not yet committed a crime, IIRC.

I'm sure Mr. Wayne has done illegal things related to surveillance or breaking-and-entering, but is what he does as a whole so very criminal in the eyes of the law? Aren't private citizens allowed to try and stop a crime in progress?

[Jared]

If your'e just talking about him beating up buggers and so forth, it's still illegal, because Batman doesn't stick around to give statements to the cops and he doesn't appear in court.

[Major Danger]

Short answer: Yes.
In most states you can use force to protect yourself or others from injury or death, but only enough force to stop the attack. However, a lot of states require you to retreat if bg just wants a thing like your tv or car. So if you're walking down the street and the First National Bank is being robbed and you take it upon yourself to kick the bank robber's butt, he can (and probably will) have you charged with assault (and he'll sue you too, for pain/suffering, loss of income etc.).
There was a famous case in the 70s in NYC I believe, where a solid citizen stopped a rape in progress. He was charged and convicted of assault and was successfully sued by the perp. You gotta love the ACLU!
Now if Gotham City was in Texas......

[AnthonyJ]

Might seem like a funny question given that in the comics he's often been on the run from the cops...but I'm wondering if in the real world are Batman's activities considered illegal?
Depends on what he's doing and on local law, but frequently yes.
Is it actually against the law to beat up heavily armed criminals with your bare hands while preventing them from committing a crime?
Depends on what they're doing. Using force to prevent harm to self or others will be legal in most jurisdictions, as long as the force is proportionate to the threat. Using force to prevent other crimes may or may not be legal, and ambushing people is pretty much never going to be legal (for example, the classic 'smugglers at the docks' scenes are pretty much going to be illegal). It is also possible to wind up in trouble for endangerment (by starting a fight, you created a threat to other people) even if use of force would otherwise be legal. Finally, citizen's arrest powers in general don't grant the sovereign immunity given to real cops, which means you can be prosecuted for any mistakes.

[ryerye17]

Yes. Let's close the thread now.

However, if it's a question of morality, that would be more interesting

[DonC]

Ask Bernhard Goetz.

[SpideyZERO]

There was a famous case in the 70s in NYC I believe, where a solid citizen stopped a rape in progress. He was charged and convicted of assault and was successfully sued by the perp. You gotta love the ACLU!
Now if Gotham City was in Texas......
Seriously? That's really wrong...

[CYOTI]

It was the 70s, the era that was infamouse for being soft on crime and when we had a hick, an idiot and a crook for presidents.

[Retro315]

Yes, what Batman does is illegal. But he cuts it so close to the edge that it's a sore subject for Gotham Cops.

Batman, apart from the generalized "crime-fighting" (which may not be illegal) is a good Samaritan, for sure. And makes some citizen's arrests.

But he also interferes with police procedure, crime scenes, and the crime he commits more than any other, like 20 times per night, is breaking & entering.

I've nearly been arrested for breaking and entering myself. Cops frown upon it. Batman is lucky in that, his kicking the crap out of criminals is the bargaining chip that gets the cops to look the other way over the B&E charges they could file.

[samSAM]

It's legal to me ... Batman is the man

[Aziz Abbasi]

It's legal to me ... Batman is the manMe too, bar the surveilance and the break & entery

[Vidocq]

Might seem like a funny question given that in the comics he's often been on the run from the cops...but I'm wondering if in the real world are Batman's activities considered illegal?

Is it actually against the law to beat up heavily armed criminals with your bare hands while preventing them from committing a crime? I remember how the Bernhard Goetz thing went down in the 80s, but that involved lethal force with a gun against (apparently) unarmed guys who had not yet committed a crime, IIRC.

I'm sure Mr. Wayne has done illegal things related to surveillance or breaking-and-entering, but is what he does as a whole so very criminal in the eyes of the law? Aren't private citizens allowed to try and stop a crime in progress?

Of course it is. The fact that he jumps on Criminals, his method of interrogation that either is or borderlines in torture (Dangling people from a rooftop), the fact that he attacks suspects even if they are not attacking him or anyone else at the moment (How many times have you seen a robber running from Batman in one panel and him being unconcious on the next?), The fact that he carries many concealed weapons, child endangerment (Look kid, there is a psychotic and disfigured DA with a Baseball bat, Go Fetch!), he has used his companies money and tech to finance all of this with out his investors knowing etc.

What he does is vigilantism and that is Cathegorically Criminal, even if you don't kill any one. That's just how it is.

[Infinity Man]

Seriously? That's really wrong...

Yeah it really is. Kind of one of those things that makes you want to throw up. He is also right about the "If Gotham City was in Texas..." part too. If you find someone in your house down here you can shoot them (as long as they are not fleeing) and you probably wont get in trouble for it.

[Chris S.]

Yeah it really is. Kind of one of those things that makes you want to throw up. He is also right about the "If Gotham City was in Texas..." part too. If you find someone in your house down here you can shoot them (as long as they are not fleeing) and you probably wont get in trouble for it.

I'm pretty sure Wyoming passed a law recently that you could shoot someone for walking on your property. I think it's alright as long as its not a lethal shot.

Gotta love those red states.

[Sizzle]

Yes, putting underaged males in harmful situations.

[show name]

There was a famous case in the 70s in NYC I believe, where a solid citizen stopped a rape in progress. He was charged and convicted of assault and was successfully sued by the perp. You gotta love the ACLU!


Dismaying. Without knowing the details, on the face of it seems like a terrible perversion and abuse of the legal system.


However, if it's a question of morality, that would be more interesting

Maybe you should start that thread. I'd be interested in what people had to say. It might be somewhat one-sided given that it's a comic book forum, but definitely some of his activities are in morally gray areas.

...

Well people have brought up a lot of good points. I guess he does do some fairly out there stuff...the harsh interrogation, child endangerment, ambushing, carrying concealed grenades...

In terms of just stopping crime, I'm wondering if he just "happened to show up" at a crime in progress and let them shoot at him first (no ambushing in the shadows), would he then be legally justified in kicking their collective asses? It is after all just his two wee hammers of justice and his collection of bat-shaped metal "paperweights" against a gang of big scary dudes with automatic weapons...surely he can't be accused of using excessive force?

What state is Gotham City in, anyway? As that seems to have major bearing on the issue...

[Captain Jim]

I'm pretty sure Wyoming passed a law recently that you could shoot someone for walking on your property. I think it's alright as long as its not a lethal shot.

And you guarantee that it won't be lethal... how?

[Vidocq]

What state is Gotham City in, anyway? As that seems to have major bearing on the issue...
New Jersey.


And you guarantee that it won't be lethal... how?

Shooting them on the leg or shooting to miss (when you shoot someone with no intention of hitting them but to make it seem as if you want to hit them. ie Between the legs, close to the ear etc.). You have to be a pretty good shot to shoot in the leg or to miss on purpose though.

[T Hedge Coke]

Shooting them on the leg or shooting to miss (when you shoot someone with no intention of hitting them but to make it seem as if you want to hit them. ie Between the legs, close to the ear etc.). You have to be a pretty good shot to shoot in the leg or to miss on purpose though.

You have to be more than a "pretty good shot" to shoot someone close to the ear without hitting them in the face. And they have to be really still for you.

[CYOTI]

And you guarantee that it won't be lethal... how? Call 911 and then then shoot them?

[The Batman]

Shooting them on the leg or shooting to miss (when you shoot someone with no intention of hitting them but to make it seem as if you want to hit them. ie Between the legs, close to the ear etc.). You have to be a pretty good shot to shoot in the leg or to miss on purpose though.


Aren't there a bunch of arteries in the leg that, if ruptured by something like a bullet, could cause someone to bleed to death really quickly?

[Vidocq]

You have to be more than a "pretty good shot" to shoot someone close to the ear without hitting them in the face. And they have to be really still for you.

Was trying to make a funny Understatement, Didn't translate well typed.

Aren't there a bunch of arteries in the leg that, if ruptured by something like a bullet, could cause someone to bleed to death really quickly?

Yeah, but not fast enough for that someone not being able to get help in time or atleast make a torniquet or an improvised patch (If it's Hollow point though, you are screwed). Not killing someone also means not letting someone die when you could do something about it (No matter what Christian Bale says).

[Jared]

Not killing someone also means not letting someone die when you could do something about it (No matter what Christian Bale says).

Good Samaritan laws vary state to state, I believe. But nowhere would a man be legally bound to risk his own life to save another. Although when the train is about to crash because your actions, but you took those actions to prevent a lethal terrorist strike...I have no idea, actually.

[CYOTI]

It's sad that people on a Batman forum don't share Bruce's opinions on moral and legal issues.

[pitbull in a skirt]

Might seem like a funny question given that in the comics he's often been on the run from the cops...but I'm wondering if in the real world are Batman's activities considered illegal?

Is it actually against the law to beat up heavily armed criminals with your bare hands while preventing them from committing a crime? I remember how the Bernhard Goetz thing went down in the 80s, but that involved lethal force with a gun against (apparently) unarmed guys who had not yet committed a crime, IIRC.

I'm sure Mr. Wayne has done illegal things related to surveillance or breaking-and-entering, but is what he does as a whole so very criminal in the eyes of the law? Aren't private citizens allowed to try and stop a crime in progress?

Absolutely. Even if he is saving lives.

Same can be said about Superman. He is literally an illegal alien.

[Jorriss]

It's sad that people on a Batman forum don't share Bruce's opinions on moral and legal issues.
Well this thread is more oriented towards real life, and in real life, batmans views on the law and morality are absurd.

[CYOTI]

Vilgilantism is as American as apple pie given this country's long and proud history of it.

[Forth World]

He is also right about the "If Gotham City was in Texas..." part too. If you find someone in your house down here you can shoot them (as long as they are not fleeing) and you probably wont get in trouble for it.

In ancient Rome it was legal to kill any stranger you found in your house after dark. It was also legal to kill your wife if you caught her cheating, but only if you caught her and the other dude in the actual act, and you had to kill both of them. If you only killed one, you got charged with murder.

[Vidocq]

Vilgilantism is as American as apple pie given this country's long and proud history of it.

I hope you know that's nonsense. That Long and proud history is limited to the Black Knobs, Some disorganized serial killers that are easy to catch, That rancher who went to Afganistan to capture terrorists, and maybe Bernhard Goetz. Unless you inclued all those who have killed immigrants, In which case That Long and Proud history involves the KKK and NeoNazis.
The truth is the only places where Vigilantism has thrived is in Third World countries. Notably Salvador's Sombra Negra and Colombia's Pepes who was admitted by official authorities to be instrumental in bringing Pablo Escobar down.

[blueridgerider]

Let us list the crimes of the Batman:

1. Illegal audio and video surveillance
2. Kidnapping
3. Breaking and entering
4. Assault and Battery
5. Knowingly placing a minor in harm's way.
6. Murder (Has directly killed and indirectly in that anyone that dies during his commission of a crime - he can be held legally culpable for)
7. Every traffic violation immaginable including: Speeding, driving an unregistered vehicle, illegal parking, etc.
8. FAA violations: Flying unregisterd aircraft, failing to file flight plans, etc.
9. Vandalism


And that's just the tip of the iceberg

[blueridgerider]

Absolutely. Even if he is saving lives.

Same can be said about Superman. He is literally an illegal alien.


Perhaps Supes got his green papers and became Naturalized during one of the Amnesty periods.

[The Batman]

Yeah, but not fast enough for that someone not being able to get help in time or atleast make a torniquet or an improvised patch (If it's Hollow point though, you are screwed). Not killing someone also means not letting someone die when you could do something about it (No matter what Christian Bale says).


Maybe, or maybe they still bleed to death before help can arrive because that tourniquet isn't good enough or that improvised patch just doesn't work. Some of those arteries in the legs after all look pretty big and pretty important and pretty easy to hit.

The best most certain way to make sure somebody doesn't die from a gunshot wound is to not shoot them in the first place.

In real life at least. In comics, the best way to do that is to just shoot their guns from their hands. :biggrin:

[blueridgerider]

Maybe, or maybe they still bleed to death before help can arrive because that tourniquet isn't good enough or that improvised patch just doesn't work. Some of those arteries in the legs after all look pretty big and pretty important and pretty easy to hit.

The best most certain way to make sure somebody doesn't die from a gunshot wound is to not shoot them in the first place.

In real life at least. In comics, the best way to do that is to just shoot their guns from their hands. :biggrin:


Femoral Artery is the largest in the body. You'll bleed out in a few minutes.

[The Batman]

And that's in the thigh right? Groin?

I haven't really touched biology since highschool so it's fuzzy.

[Vidocq]

Maybe, or maybe they still bleed to death before help can arrive because that tourniquet isn't good enough or that improvised patch just doesn't work. Some of those arteries in the legs after all look pretty big and pretty important and pretty easy to hit.

Well yeah, but the Possibility of someone dying by a leg wound is slim. We are talking if someone broke into your property, and if you and the would be robber were able to get to your property then so can an ambulance or a chopper. Also it's an torniquet. It's not rocket science. That is extremely easy to do and one would have to have to be bleeding out the damn hoover damn for a patch not to work on a leg wound.

The best most certain way to make sure somebody doesn't die from a gunshot wound is to not shoot them in the first place.


Well, Yeah, but we are talking of ways to shoot someone without killing them.

[Vidocq]

And that's in the thigh right? Groin?

I haven't really touched biology since highschool so it's fuzzy.

It's in the tigh. Even so, It's a very rare occurance for a human being to bleed to death from a leg wound. It gives you a good 14 minutes to patch up or momentarilly stop the bleeding. It's really easy to do, even if you hit the femoral. If someone is going to bleed to death from a leg wound it would most likely be because that person is either to weak (is sick or is a child ) or is simply to stupid to stop the bleeding.

[The Batman]

Well yeah, but the Possibility of someone dying by a leg wound is slim. We are talking if someone broke into your property, and if you and the would be robber were able to get to your property then so can an ambulance or a chopper. Also it's an torniquet. It's not rocket science. That is extremely easy to do and one would have to have to be bleeding out the damn hoover damn for a patch not to work on a leg wound.


Well I guess it comes down to what kind of leg wound we're talking about because that femoral artery looks big and serious. And I guess it comes down to how long it takes an ambulance to get to wherever you are. And to how well and quickly you can tie off a tourniquet. And the health of this hypothetical burglar. And how secure you'd feel about going to check on them right after you shoot them. And how much you've kept your wits about you after just shooting another human being. And so on and so forth.

That's a lot of conditions to hang somebody's life on.



Well, Yeah, but we are talking of ways to shoot someone without killing them.

I know and so am I. My point is the best way to shoot somebody without killing them is to not shoot them at all because you never know.

[Vidocq]

Well I guess it comes down to what kind of leg wound we're talking about because that femoral artery looks big and serious. And I guess it comes down to how long it takes an ambulance to get to wherever you are. And to how well and quickly you can tie off a tourniquet. And the health of this hypothetical burglar. And how secure you'd feel about going to check on them right after you shoot them. And how much you've kept your wits about you after just shooting another human being. And so on and so forth.

That's a lot of conditions to hang somebody's life on.


Not really, it happens all the time just visit an ER and ask how many people had died from leg wounds. Even if you hit the Femoral artery you and the robber still have around 15 minutes to stop the bleeding (assuming it's not with hollow point bullets, those cause internal bleeding).911 Also can call helicopters and tell you how to patch and do the torniquet correctly. The Health could be a factor if the buglar died from an opportunistic infection, but then he most likely wouldn't die instantly and just develop a fever while you are treating him, it shouldn't have to stop you from making the torniquet and the patch. If you can shoot someone in the leg instead of missing or hitting the chest, like it's most likely to happen when one shoots blind, then you have enough wits to listen to the guy screaming and call 911 and patch him up. Even if you are shocked by the expirence, if you could succuesfully shoot a guy in the leg at close range, under stress. You can dial 911.

Not saying that we should shoot people on the leg. I'm just saying that the idea of someone dying from a leg wound in that scenario is ridiculous.

I know and so am I. My point is the best way to shoot somebody without killing them is to not shoot them at all because you never know.

The Point of the discussion is if you had to shoot a someone with put killing them. So Not shooting them is really not an option at the moment.

[The Batman]

I'm really not surprised if people with gunshot wounds to the leg that are in the hands of trained medical professionals and in an emergency room have a pretty good survival rate. But that's not exactly the environment you're describing is it? You're describing one where a lot of things can go wrong very easily.

And no, I'm not suggesting that a gunshot wound to the leg is as likely to kill as one to the head or the chest either.

What I am suggesting is that if you were shoot someone, even in the leg, you've increased tremendously the chances that they might die from a gunshot wound. I'm suggesting that shooting to wound is a bit of a fallacy and that you probably shouldn't turn a gun on someone with any other expectation than that they'll be killed.


Also, wouldn't shooting somebody in the foot be even less dangerous than the leg?

[Walter West]

Ask Bernhard Goetz.


Batman doesn't use guns and definitely doesn't use them on someone who LOOKS like they are going to cause trouble.

[The Cool Thatguy]

It's in the tigh. Even so, It's a very rare occurance for a human being to bleed to death from a leg wound. It gives you a good 14 minutes to patch up or momentarilly stop the bleeding. It's really easy to do, even if you hit the femoral. If someone is going to bleed to death from a leg wound it would most likely be because that person is either to weak (is sick or is a child ) or is simply to stupid to stop the bleeding.

Umm, no. You hit the femoral artery and you can bleed out inside of two minutes, if that.

[ffaristocrat]

In the early afternoon of Saturday, December 22, 1984, four men from the Bronx — Barry Allen, 19; Troy Canty, 19; James Ramseur, 18; and Darrell Cabey, 19 — boarded a downtown No. 2 express train on a mission to steal money from video arcade machines in Manhattan.[1] When the train arrived at the 14th Street station in Manhattan, 15 to 20 other passengers remained with them in subway car 7657,[2][3] the seventh car of the ten-car train.

My god, I knew Johns was retconning Barry's past to make him edgier and darker, but I didn't think he'd go this far!

[Avenger08]

Okay, this question is rediculouss.

In this country, Batman has committed a REDICULOUS amount of crimes.

Child endangerment
recless endangerment,
assault,
breaking and entering,
vigilantism,
evading arrest,
etc.

[edublz14]

Quoted from the AP...

NFL Star Dies Of Gunshot Wound
Redskins' Safety Sean Taylor, 24, Shot In Leg At Florida Home; Cops Probe Possible Robbery

"(CBS/AP) Washington Redskins safety Sean Taylor has died, a day after he was shot in the leg at his home, family friend Richard Sharpstein said. Taylor was 24."

"He lost a lot of blood from the gunshot wound, which hit him in the upper thigh and apparently perforated his femoral artery, bled out a lot," Sharpstein told CBS News Monday night."

only people in movies and comics run around after a gunshot, there are no "to wound" shots, patients often die from shock alone, and receiving immediate medical treatment is NO guarantee of survival.

[RubberLotus]

Of course it is. The fact that he jumps on Criminals, his method of interrogation that either is or borderlines in torture (Dangling people from a rooftop), the fact that he attacks suspects even if they are not attacking him or anyone else at the moment (How many times have you seen a robber running from Batman in one panel and him being unconcious on the next?), The fact that he carries many concealed weapons, child endangerment (Look kid, there is a psychotic and disfigured DA with a Baseball bat, Go Fetch!), he has used his companies money and tech to finance all of this with out his investors knowing etc.

What he does is vigilantism and that is Cathegorically Criminal, even if you don't kill any one. That's just how it is.

Kind of (well, a lot) off-topic, but just how dangerous is Two-Face, really? He strikes me as the most "mundane" out of the major Bat-Villains.

[The Batman]

only people in movies and comics run around after a gunshot, there are no "to wound" shots, patients often die from shock alone, and receiving immediate medical treatment is NO guarantee of survival.

This is kinda what I was trying to get at.

[Immortal]

Ask Bernhard Goetz.


What's interesting is one of the men Goetz shot was named Barry Allen.