Why Steph makes a great Batgirl.

[DetectiveDupin]

Firstly, I'd like this discussion to remain civil, and if you agree or disagree please give explanations other than simple posts like "I don't like her".

IMO, Stephanie Brown is right for Bat-girl because A) She is young, unlike Barbara, and B) because she is a much more light-hearted character than Cassandra Cain, whom never really meshed well with the other members of the Bat-family IMO. Cassandra was like Bruce but even more alone. I mean, Bruce even adopted her but she really hasn't been featured with him in some time. When I think of Bat-girl, I think of a fun, vibrant character and Cassandra clearly isn't like that. Steph has ties to the family, she's more accessible, so I think more people should give her a chance.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Firstly, I'd like this discussion to remain civil, and if you agree or disagree please give explanations other than simple posts like "I don't like her".

IMO, Stephanie Brown is right for Bat-girl because A) She is young, unlike Barbara, and B) because she is a much more light-hearted character than Cassandra Cain, whom never really meshed well with the other members of the Bat-family IMO. Cassandra was like Bruce but even more alone. I mean, Bruce even adopted her but she really hasn't been featured with him in some time. When I think of Bat-girl, I think of a fun, vibrant character and Cassandra clearly isn't like that. Steph has ties to the family, she's more accessible, so I think more people should give her a chance.

Honestly, I think you've shown clearly why Spoiler isn't the better Batgirl

She's Robin 2.0. An easy audience surrogate, the crutch of a lazy writer unable to come up with anything new.

Cassandra, however, is a new addition to the Batclan. She's a study in contrasts and has characterization that extends beyond the cliche 'spunky'

Describing her as Batman but more alone is a misnomer. Batman never struggled to read, Batman was never homeless, Batman never struggled under the weight of child abuse, Batman never struggled to fit into society.

Sure, wearing the mask, Batgirl knew what to do. But without it, she was completely lost and very vulnerable. Nightwing, Robin, Spoiler, they're all the same people when the costume is off, just more subdued. Cassandra is not. She's a stranger in a strange land, and that alone is worth fifty stories.

Homelessness, child abuse, nature vs, nurture, self determination, finding one's place in society, these are all stories that would resonate strongly with Cass, but not with Steph. Even those issues that she might cover (child abuse, nature vs. nurture) pale in comparison to how they affect Cass.

You describe Steph as more light, but when you compare their attitudes, what they've lived through, Cass easily beats her out, it just gets no emphasize. Steph started her career to screw over her dad and has carried that chip on her shoulder her entire career.

Cass started out to redeem herself for a crime in many ways, she's not guilty of. But she rarely gave a second thought to the abuse she suffered, how long she went without a home, how she could barely talk, etc

One could argue both came off an assembly line, but all one would have to do is scratch the surface of Cass' character to see how she's different.

In contrast, Steph is just Robin 2.0 with a crappy career. There's a reason why Steph has been around longer, but doesn't have any accomplishments to her name.

[invisiboy]

Well, with a thread title like "Why Steph makes a better Batgirl", good luck keeping the conversation "civil".

As for Batgirl needing to be light-hearted. Who says? The biggest advantage Cass had was she was nothing like the Batgirl before her, whereas Steph seems like a watered-down version of Babs, i.e., Steph's not very smart or focused, or very good at fighting.

I believe DC should have just kept Cass as Batgirl ... instead of DC opting -- in process -- not to resurrect Babs as Batgirl and choosing Steph as the eleventh-hour replacement. I suspect that after the newness of BatSpoiler wears off, the name Batgirl will be even more unpopular than ever.

[Alan2099]

As for Batgirl needing to be light-hearted. Who says?
That's pretty much always been the perception of Batgirl, especially in the mainstream.

Cass has never really fit into the role of Batgirl as it's commonly seen, and goes so far as to even show up Batman when it comes to fighting abilities and tragic backstory. Like it or not, Batgirl, whether Babs, Cass, or Steph, will always been the third stringer in the Batfamily, after Batman himself and then Robin. Having your third stringer show up your main guy just throws everything out of wack.

Plus Cass really had an ugly costume.

[The Cool Thatguy]

That's pretty much always been the perception of Batgirl, especially in the mainstream.

Cass has never really fit into the role of Batgirl as it's commonly seen, and goes so far as to even show up Batman when it comes to fighting abilities and tragic backstory. Like it or not, Batgirl, whether Babs, Cass, or Steph, will always been the third stringer in the Batfamily, after Batman himself and then Robin. Having your third stringer show up your main guy just throws everything out of wack.

Plus Cass really had an ugly costume.

And since when does comics have to conform to mainstream?

And for all your emphasize on her combat ability, I don't recall her ever upstaging Batman.

[invisiboy]

That's pretty much always been the perception of Batgirl, especially in the mainstream.

Cass has never really fit into the role of Batgirl as it's commonly seen, and goes so far as to even show up Batman when it comes to fighting abilities and tragic backstory. Like it or not, Batgirl, whether Babs, Cass, or Steph, will always been the third stringer in the Batfamily, after Batman himself and then Robin. Having your third stringer show up your main guy just throws everything out of wack.

Plus Cass really had an ugly costume.

Babs is the only Batgirl to make a dent in "the mainstream" but I don't see why her being a more light-hearted character translates to all future Batgirls following in her perky footsteps. Back when Babs was Batgirl, comics were not as dark and gritty as they are now. A modern, light-hearted take on Batgirl seems like a perfect way to make her irrelevent. And Steph has that in spades.

And, yes, Cass did have an ugly costume. What's funny is it didn't look so ugly on Helena, but on Cass it did.

[Shush]

Steph is a lighthearted character? Pregnant teen. Brutally tortured. I think not.

My main problem with spoiler is that she has always come across as extremely incompetent and useless in all the outings I've read of her. She's always felt to me as a Tim support character that somehow shoehorned her way into the batverse and is way over her head.

[Brack360]

Plus Cass really had an ugly costume.

Cass had a cool-looking Batgirl costume. Steph has an absolutely hideous Batgirl costume.

[Barlion]

Honestly, I think you've shown clearly why Spoiler isn't the better Batgirl

She's Robin 2.0. An easy audience surrogate, the crutch of a lazy writer unable to come up with anything new.

Cassandra, however, is a new addition to the Batclan. She's a study in contrasts and has characterization that extends beyond the cliche 'spunky'



I couldn't agree more.

Sometimes I think DC has a problem with unique new characters. For example, we used to have Matrix Supergirl, that had her very own powers and origin. Then she was replaced for the current Supergirl, which is simply Superman's cousin, with the exactly same powers and origins.

Same thing happened with Cass: she was an unique Batgirl, different from the previous encarnations of the character, but DC felt like she should be replaced by Lite Babs.

Edit: what's the problem with Cass' costume? I think it looks pretty cool.

[The Xenos]

I've been following Steph since her days in Dixon's Robin. I like her. Not sure if I really like her taking up the name and new costume of Batgirl. I honestly don't see what was wrong with Cass. Well, I guess editorial didn't think an Asian Batgirl who was raised as an assassin was as marketable as a 'spunky blonde' 'fun Batgirl'.. who was a vigilante also with a criminal father, once got pregnant, gave up her kid, and was also thought to be tortured to death until she was revealed to not be dead. Yeah, Steph isn't all sunshine and lollipops either, not that DC seems to be remembering this much. Though Babs did mention about showing her autopsy photos to Misfit. Wait.. autopsy photos? How does that.. Ugh. Boy DC has made a mess of both Steph and Cass.

Personally, I was hoping to see Cass, Steph and even Mistfit in this new Batgirl book. I think it makes sense. Of course DC hasn't been about making sense lately.

[MTL76]

Firstly, I'd like this discussion to remain civil.

With the thread topic worded as it is, the chance of that is basically nil. Why not post a thread "Why Steph Makes a Great Batgirl" instead?

And this is coming from a reader who prefers Steph as Batgirl, BTW. Just sayin'.

[DonC]

I know some people will vehemently disagree, I agree with the faction that thinks Barbara is more of a rounded, interesting character as Oracle. So that rules her out.

Cassandra Cain had the personality of a rock. I know she has her fans - and hopefully DC will do her justice for those fnas - but I just never got into her. She's out.

Stephanie? I liked it when they brought her back. I guess I agree - Steph is the best choice for Batgirl right now.

Your mileage may vary.

[Mr. Holmes]

The Stephanie Brown I once knew written by Chuck Dixon is dead. Maybe she reincarnated as Squire. No, anyway, she's basically been written like some incompetent idiot as like a plot device for so long, its hard to just say she was written out of character, it's basically become her character. I know when Dixon was writing Robin he reversed some of it by keeping War Games in continuity but showing Stephanie in Africa learning and evolving, but in this current Batgirl book, Brian Miller seems to know nothing about the character. In fact, I think he said he was familiar with Steph because of War Games. And that really sucks, I think the Spoiler we saw who was trained by Cass, Batman, and the Birds of Prey, who sort of operated as a blessing in disguise to Batman and Robin against her father is gone now. I'm giving the current Batgirl book 5 issues. The first two issues so far hasn't cut it for me, but this 3-issue arc is supposed to put the book in place and get it on its own legs, so fair enough. I guess Squire will fulfill what I miss from the old Stephanie Brown who got screwed over.

As for Barbara, I didn't read comics when she was Batgirl, and I thought Year One was decent. So I like her as Batgirl, but I don't care to see her return to the role. And Cassandra Cain never clicked with me. I would have prefer ed if Huntress became Batgirl after No Man's Land.

[KET]

Sometimes I think DC has a problem with unique new characters. For example, we used to have Matrix Supergirl, that had her very own powers and origin. Then she was replaced for the current Supergirl, which is simply Superman's cousin, with the exactly same powers and origins.

Same thing happened with Cass: she was an unique Batgirl, different from the previous incarnations of the character, but DC felt like she should be replaced by Lite Babs.

That's because DC's current marketing department usually doesn't really know anything about marketing, unless it's being dictated to by outside media. That, and Dan DiDio usually displays no imagination to speak of, unless Geoff Johns or Grant Morrison manage to give it to him. :wink:


Edit: what's the problem with Cass' costume? I think it looks pretty cool.

Essentially a leather bondage outfit....tends to look like the character should be a 'silent extra' from one of the SAW movies. But then again, the usual idea behind a 'Bat' character is to scare the crap out of their opponents before beating them up, isn't it? :biggrin:

Frankly, I don't really see the need for a new Batgirl, when DC could have merely cooled their heels for a year or two, and THEN brought the character back in a more appropriate fashion. Yet DiDio always seems to be in a mad-on hurry whenever it concerns one of the major franchise players.

[Captain Jim]

My main problem with spoiler is that she has always come across as extremely incompetent and useless in all the outings I've read of her.

Guess you haven't read too much.

With the thread topic worded as it is, the chance of that is basically nil. Why not post a thread "Why Steph Makes a Great Batgirl" instead?

And this is coming from a reader who prefers Steph as Batgirl, BTW. Just sayin'.

I agree 100%; I had the exact same thought. The way this is worded presently, it's like "fighting words" to anyone who disagrees. So I think I'm going to change the thread title effective immediately.

Frankly, I don't really see the need for a new Batgirl, when DC could have merely cooled their heels for a year or two, and THEN brought the character back in a more appropriate fashion. Yet DiDio always seems to be in a mad-on hurry whenever it concerns one of the major franchise players.

Well, I don't know about this. I know if you don't use a particular title for a certain amount of time, you risk losing the trademark. But I don't know how long that period of time is. On second thought, the Cassie mini-series from last spring should have taken care of this for awhile.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Guess you haven't read too much.

Well...she was fired as Robin, she started War Games, in the Robin and Wildcat teamup issue, her rushing in enabled thieves to take a hostage, Batgirl had to knock her out three times because Steph would have gotten in the way, and that's just off the top of my head.

Steph's purpose in the Bat books was as a foil to show the ability of others. With Robin, she served to show his emotional maturity. With Cass, she showed Batgirl's ability to handle a combat situation.

She did all of that by being immature, or not as good. Hell, I don't think she's taken down more than three name enemies solely by herself, competently, in all the years she's been around.

[[]D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite]

These two threads...

http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?messageID=2005313143

http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?threadID=2000186781&tstart=45

Especially these three posts:

She had a unique ability to read body language. Interesting childhood and relation to her father David (Before Beechen came along).

A heart of gold, strong morale compass. Overall a very balanced character. She excelled in fighting but suffered in other areas due to her social and linguistic skills.

I really liked it becasue it was a strong female character without any sort of cheesecake or the whole amazonpackage that comes with anything Wonderwoman related.
She wasn't this sort of jack of all trades that street characters easily fall into. Where they are good fighters, uses some weapons and gadgets. I think she was fresh enough to stand out but still fitting in good with the bat-theme.

Her difficulty speaking affected in me in a couple of ways. First, it gave the creators ways of telling stories in new and different ways. That was very exciting in the early issues, if difficult to sustain.

Second, I think you'll find some resonance for socially awkward characters among comic book buyers.

With Cassie putting on the cowl we had a fresh new character catching ride on Batman's coat tails.
She wasn't this streetwise wise guy type of teen hero
She wasn't in one of the boy hungry, mall rat, or overly angsty girl hero stereotypes
Essentially she had a personality and situation that was pretty fresh and relatable IMO

Sum up why I preferred Cass as Batgirl.

[The Lucky One]

Though Babs did mention about showing her autopsy photos to Misfit. Wait.. autopsy photos? How does that.. Ugh.

It was explained in Dixon's resurrection of Steph that Leslie substituted the corpse of a young blonde runaway who had recently OD'd and performed an autopsy on it instead. So Babs did show Misfit autopsy photos of someone who she, at the time, thought was Steph, even though it later turned out not to be the case.

Without getting into the larger debate, I think the thing that surprises me the most is that so many people list Steph "being fired" as Robin and initiating War Games as strikes against her, without placing the bulk of that blame squarely where it belongs: on Bruce. He as good as admitted to Alfred that he only made Steph Robin as a petty slap in the face to Tim, he fired her for a mistake that was more minor than some that both Dick and Tim have made in the past, and he handled the entire situation like an infant. As for War Games... I'll grant that it wasn't Steph's brightest moment, but gosh, Bruce, for a trusted partner from whom you don't keep secrets, sure seems odd that you didn't happen to mention the one false identity that you use more than any other. Bit of an oversight, eh? I've read a lot of stuff about War Games, but I don't think I've ever heard someone say, "The lion's share of the blame for this is unquestionably on Bruce's shoulders. His immense emotional immaturity and criminal negligence in allowing someone access to his secret headquarters and massively powerful computers without sharing with her even the most basic aspects of his information-gathering processes led to a lot of people getting killed. He is not fit to be Batman anymore." I suppose it's not odd that we're willing to forgive the icon for his massive screw-ups, but it's a shame that by default, it then all has to get shifted over to a character who really doesn't deserve it.

-D

[Mr. Holmes]

Well...she was fired as Robin, she started War Games, in the Robin and Wildcat teamup issue, her rushing in enabled thieves to take a hostage, Batgirl had to knock her out three times because Steph would have gotten in the way, and that's just off the top of my head.

Steph's purpose in the Bat books was as a foil to show the ability of others. With Robin, she served to show his emotional maturity. With Cass, she showed Batgirl's ability to handle a combat situation.

She did all of that by being immature, or not as good. Hell, I don't think she's taken down more than three name enemies solely by herself, competently, in all the years she's been around.

That's basically what her character has become now days. If you read how Chuck Dixon wrote her, she was written has mature and competent. Writers decided later to make her the ultimate foil to Cass and Tim as a plot gimmick. But even then, the Robin/Spoiler special shows her taking down a lot of baddies in Africa and saving Leslie Thompkins life.

[Ninja Man-Bats]

when i think of stephanie Brown I can't think of any primary quality or outstanding advatange in her. she's just very plain. Robins ex girlfriend, wow. Cass is the silent killer. Barbara is the spunky nerd. What is Stephanie. she needs something new to happen to her. just the problem as i see it

[myme]

Without getting into the larger debate, I think the thing that surprises me the most is that so many people list Steph "being fired" as Robin and initiating War Games as strikes against her, without placing the bulk of that blame squarely where it belongs: on Bruce. He as good as admitted to Alfred that he only made Steph Robin as a petty slap in the face to Tim, he fired her for a mistake that was more minor than some that both Dick and Tim have made in the past, and he handled the entire situation like an infant.

Well, giving Stephanie the Robin mantle wasn't the original creative idea. It was Dan Didio who wanted her to become Robin. (see DC Nation: Spoiler Bat-endings (http://www.dccomics.com/dcu/news/?nw=13569)) This editorial interference let Batman look bad (out of character), like you described it.

[invisiboy]

Well, I don't know about this. I know if you don't use a particular title for a certain amount of time, you risk losing the trademark. But I don't know how long that period of time is. On second thought, the Cassie mini-series from last spring should have taken care of this for awhile.

DC doesn't need a current, in-continuity Batgirl for them to retain the trademark. All they have to do is publish the character every once in a while -- and even if they solely relied on Babs flashbacks, they'd have the Batgirl trademark secured. There doesn't have to be a "Batgirl" ongoing title for the rights to be secured. Just clarifying.

[invisiboy]

Guess you haven't read too much.

Wow, that was snide. It's like you're calling him "illiterate" just because his opinion of Spoiler is lesser than yours. That sounds like one of the personal attacks you tell us not to engage in.

[invisiboy]

It was explained in Dixon's resurrection of Steph that Leslie substituted the corpse of a young blonde runaway who had recently OD'd and performed an autopsy on it instead. So Babs did show Misfit autopsy photos of someone who she, at the time, thought was Steph, even though it later turned out not to be the case.

Those "autopsy photos" annoyed me. I mean, Babs is supposed to be brilliant and have a freakin' photographic memory, yet she forgot what Spoiler looked like? It's not like "Steph's body" was mangled. Stupid, just stupid. It's almost as if they try to tell nonsensical stories.

[dreyga2000]

I'll be the first I love Cass... I really wish she was still Batgirl...

But thing one thing I do like about Spolier as Batgirl is that in a sense she captures some the essence of the Young Babs as Batgirl...

She's reckless youth living the dream, everybody wants her to quit but she won't give in, she gets a certain amount of joy and self-realization from donning the mask... She girl trying making in Gotham boy's club of crime-fighting...

She reminds me alot of Year One Babs...

[DetectiveDupin]

I'll be the first I love Cass... I really wish she was still Batgirl...

But thing one thing I do like about Spolier as Batgirl is that in a sense she captures some the essence of the Young Babs as Batgirl...

She's reckless youth living the dream, everybody wants her to quit but she won't give in, she gets a certain amount of joy and self-realization from donning the mask... She girl trying making in Gotham boy's club of crime-fighting...

She reminds me alot of Year One Babs...

Exactly my sentiments.

[invisiboy]

Exactly my sentiments.

If Steph is so much like early Batgirl Babs, isn't DC simply throwing us a bone? Like they are giving people the closest thing to Babs since they will not give us Babs herself? I never cared for Cass as Batgirl, but I could at least respect the creation because she was quite different from Babs. But Spoiler is like a watered-down version of Babs, only with very little smarts. That, I cannot get behind at all. I would rather DC have given us a new take on Batgirl instead of shamelessly basing a new one on the most popular version.

Oh, and one big issue I have with Steph being Batgirl is, I have been reading these comics for twenty years, and I cannot recall her and Babs ever having one conversation before Batgirl #1. The two have next to no shared history, so Steph becoming Batgirl seems forced, especially with how quickly Cass was shuffled out of the picture.

[MTL76]

Some reasons why I like Steph as Batgirl:

-She has life outside of being Batgirl. In general I find it makes characters more interesting when they do stuff outside of fighting crime/saving the world, even if they don't necessarily have a secret identity.

-She's the underdog. No one in the DC hero community thinks she has what it takes, and she's out to prove them wrong.

-She's got a sense of humor (at least when written well.) No, she isn't a bubbly cheerleader, but it's not a grimdark overdose with her.

-She's got too many plates in the air, and it'll be fun to see how she manages them all. The "Peter Parker" vibe.

-It's nice to see a supporting character I like get their own series.

[DetectiveDupin]

If Steph is so much like early Batgirl Babs, isn't DC simply throwing us a bone? Like they are giving people the closest thing to Babs since they will not give us Babs herself? I never cared for Cass as Batgirl, but I could at least respect the creation because she was quite different from Babs. But Spoiler is like a watered-down version of Babs, only with very little smarts. That, I cannot get behind at all. I would rather DC have given us a new take on Batgirl instead of shamelessly basing a new one on the most popular version.

Oh, and one big issue I have with Steph being Batgirl is, I have been reading these comics for twenty years, and I cannot recall her and Babs ever having one conversation before Batgirl #1. The two have next to no shared history, so Steph becoming Batgirl seems forced, especially with how quickly Cass was shuffled out of the picture.

Those are all very good points, and I would be lying if I didn't agree with you on them. However, I like Stephanie Brown and she fits what I feel Batgirl should be like, and that's the best way I can state that.

[invisiboy]

To all you people who like Steph as Batgirl, I hope DC doesn't destroy your precious Batgirl the way they so thoroughly destroyed Babs and Cass. DC treats its Batgirls like crap. I hope you are spared that, but I doubt you will be.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I have to say, I find it amusing people are complaining about 'grimdarkness' in a Bat book.

[DetectiveDupin]

To all you people who like Steph as Batgirl, I hope DC doesn't destroy your precious Batgirl the way they so thoroughly destroyed Babs and Cass. DC treats its Batgirls like crap. I hope you are spared that, but I doubt you will be.

The sad thing is you're probably right.

[invisiboy]

The sad thing is you're probably right.

I was also a Supergirl fan. And DC treats them pretty terribly as well.

[jgiannantoni05]

Now I feel like starting a Steph thread: Why Steph should be making a great Black Lantern right now, along with Jason Todd

[Forth World]

To all you people who like Steph as Batgirl, I hope DC doesn't destroy your precious Batgirl the way they so thoroughly destroyed Babs and Cass. DC treats its Batgirls like crap. I hope you are spared that, but I doubt you will be.

This man speaks the truth.

[invisiboy]

Now I feel like starting a Steph thread: Why Steph should be making a great Black Lantern right now, along with Jason Todd

Now, I am not a huge Steph fan, but she did nothing to deserve being lumped in with Jason Todd! Ick!

Someone, please explain to me what compelled Didio and company to bring back Jason-f*ckin'-Todd.

[DetectiveDupin]

Now, I am not a huge Steph fan, but she did nothing to deserve being lumped in with Jason Todd! Ick!

Someone, please explain to me what compelled Didio and company to bring back Jason-f*ckin'-Todd.

$$$$$$.

Money, money, money.

[invisiboy]

$$$$$$.

Money, money, money.

When did Jason todd become a cash cow? Did I miss something? Last I heard he was a joke most fans wanted to forget.

[DetectiveDupin]

When did Jason todd become a cash cow? Did I miss something? Last I heard he was a joke most fans wanted to forget.

Regardless, people bought for his return. Funny thing about comic fans, they'll still buy a storyline of a returning character even though they hate them.

[invisiboy]

Regardless, people bought for his return. Funny thing about comic fans, they'll still buy a storyline of a returning character even though they hate them.

I didn't. Then again, I called in all those years ago to vote to kill the little b*stard.

[The Lucky One]

To all you people who like Steph as Batgirl, I hope DC doesn't destroy your precious Batgirl the way they so thoroughly destroyed Babs and Cass. DC treats its Batgirls like crap. I hope you are spared that, but I doubt you will be.

Disapproval is one thing, but the extreme sour grapes are getting a bit much, my friend. But fortunately for us, Steph's already been thoroughly destroyed and proved popular enough to come back from it, so we've got a leg up on that.

But hey, if she can last 20 years as Batgirl like Babs before that happens, that'll be good enough for me. :wink:

-D

[invisiboy]

Disapproval is one thing, but the extreme sour grapes are getting a bit much, my friend. But fortunately for us, Steph's already been thoroughly destroyed and proved popular enough to come back from it, so we've got a leg up on that.

But hey, if she can last 20 years as Batgirl like Babs before that happens, that'll be good enough for me. :wink:

-D

Sour grapes? I told the truth. Insult me all you must. It won't change the fact that DC mistreats its Batgirl (and Supergirl) characters.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Disapproval is one thing, but the extreme sour grapes are getting a bit much, my friend. But fortunately for us, Steph's already been thoroughly destroyed and proved popular enough to come back from it, so we've got a leg up on that.

But hey, if she can last 20 years as Batgirl like Babs before that happens, that'll be good enough for me. :wink:

-D

I'd be surprised if she lasts three. She's a last minute substitute for Babs, isn't nearly as popular as Cass and while she's been around a long while, there's little to suggest that she can support her own title. An unknown comic writer doesn't help either.

[dreyga2000]

If Steph is so much like early Batgirl Babs, isn't DC simply throwing us a bone? Like they are giving people the closest thing to Babs since they will not give us Babs herself?

True there are broad similarities between the two but those are purely concidental, it's more than Steph and Babs are vastly different characters...

I like that their similarties can add a more profund sense of leagcy to the title...And the charcters make for good foils....



Oh, and one big issue I have with Steph being Batgirl is, I have been reading these comics for twenty years, and I cannot recall her and Babs ever having one conversation before Batgirl #1.

Seriously??? Spolier at one point was being trained in crime fighting by the Birds of Prey... Under Canary more spefically... They decided Steph didn't make the cut an refused to continue training her...

I'd be surprised if she lasts three. She's a last minute substitute for Babs, isn't nearly as popular as Cass and while she's been around a long while, there's little to suggest that she can support her own title. An unknown comic writer doesn't help either.

I don't know I think that the fact that she's currently under the Bat umbrella really helps... Alot of those titles usually have pretty decent solo runs... I would not be suprised if it breaks fifty...

[The Cool Thatguy]

[ don't know I think that the fact that she's currently under the Bat umbrella really helps... Alot of those titles usually have pretty decent solo runs... I would not be suprised if it breaks fifty...

Like it helped Cassandra? ;)

[MTL76]

I'd be surprised if she lasts three. She's a last minute substitute for Babs, isn't nearly as popular as Cass and while she's been around a long while, there's little to suggest that she can support her own title. An unknown comic writer doesn't help either.

What is the purpose of posting this in a thread about why readers think Steph makes a great Batgirl?:confused:

I'm not contesting your opinion, just the location where you've chosen to express it. It's like posting "I'm so glad they ditched Cass as Batgirl!" on the Cass Cain appreciation thread.

[The Cool Thatguy]

What is the purpose of posting this in a thread about why readers think Steph makes a great Batgirl?:confused:

I'm not contesting your opinion, just the location where you've chosen to express it. It's like posting "I'm so glad they ditched Cass as Batgirl!" on the Cass Cain appreciation thread.

Eh, I remember what the thread was called originally.

[MTL76]

Eh, I remember what the thread was called originally.

Heh, fair enough. :biggrin: In my defense, I brought up changing the thread title because I thought it seemed like a dig aimed at Cass fans. I'm just tryin' to spread the love, man...

[The Lucky One]

Seriously??? Spolier at one point was being trained in crime fighting by the Birds of Prey... Under Canary more spefically... They decided Steph didn't make the cut an refused to continue training her...

No offense, but that's not even close to what happened. Canary said to Steph, "I don't have time to continue training you right now, but I think you have all the skills it takes to succeed in this business."

I'll be the first to admit that post-Dixon, writers have had Steph do some stupid things, but don't just make stuff up, it hurts your argument.

-D

[carabas]

Disapproval is one thing, but the extreme sour grapes are getting a bit much, my friend. But fortunately for us, Steph's already been thoroughly destroyed and proved popular enough to come back from it, so we've got a leg up on that.
Eh, hate to break it to you, but the reason she's back is not fan support, but Dixon support.

[DetectiveDupin]

Eh, hate to break it to you, but the reason she's back is not fan support, but Dixon support.

Eh, hate to break it to you, but I'm a fan and I clearly wanted her back. Do not assume Stephanie Brown does not have her fans.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Eh, hate to break it to you, but I'm a fan and I clearly wanted her back. Do not assume Stephanie Brown does not have her fans.

That's not what he said. Steph wasn't resurrected because of fan demand, but because of Editor's edict. There's a difference.

[DetectiveDupin]

That's not what he said. Steph wasn't resurrected because of fan demand, but because of Editor's edict. There's a difference.

Because you work for DC and know this for a fact? Or do you represent the entire fanbase?

[The Cool Thatguy]

Because you work for DC and know this for a fact? Or do you represent the entire fanbase?

I know because Dixon said he was told to resurrect Spoiler, and Dan D is an avid fan. There was considerable outrage over her death sure, but that died down by the time she was brought back.

[carabas]

Nevermind.

[DetectiveDupin]

I know because Dixon said he was told to resurrect Spoiler, and Dan D is an avid fan. There was considerable outrage over her death sure, but that died down by the time she was brought back.

Well then what's the problem? Fans wanted her back, editorial did, what's the issue?

[DarkKnghtJared]

When did Jason todd become a cash cow? Did I miss something? Last I heard he was a joke most fans wanted to forget.

From what I've read, he's a joke when he's written by Bruce Jones and Tony Daniel, as well as in Countdown--but really, nobody was unsullied in that POS. If what most people are assuming is true and Jason is the Red Hood currently in B&R, then he might have a shot at being kickass again.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Well then what's the problem? Fans wanted her back, editorial did, what's the issue?

I didn't say there was an issue. But it'd be a mistake to assume that Steph has a great deal of popularity based solely on her resurrection. Especially given how long she stayed dead vs. how long she'd been around.

[The Xenos]

Well, I was a fan of Steph that wanted her back. I didn't want her as Batgirl. Never crossed my mind. I much prefer Cass in that role, with Steph remaining as Spoiler. I was really hoping this new series would be almost a team book. So I'm really torn over what this book has done. I like the character, but find her strange in this role.

[dreyga2000]

No offense, but that's not even close to what happened. Canary said to Steph, "I don't have time to continue training you right now, but I think you have all the skills it takes to succeed in this business."


-D


I've looked through my back issues you're right about Canary but Spolier did serve directly under Babs for a while...At which time she trained with them...


http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww65/dreyga2000/Page_08.jpg

http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww65/dreyga2000/Page_07.jpg

http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww65/dreyga2000/10-1.jpg

Like it helped Cassandra? ;)

Saleswise Cass was doing pretty well...No where near cancellation levels.... She got canceled by director edict... Still makes me sad to this day... Cass got royally screwed...

[DarkKnghtJared]

I think Steph could make a good Batgirl--all three of them make for interesting characters. I'm just hoping that Miller's explaination for Cass makes sense when he brings her back into the series.

[Captain Jim]

Well...she was fired as Robin, she started War Games, in the Robin and Wildcat teamup issue, her rushing in enabled thieves to take a hostage, Batgirl had to knock her out three times because Steph would have gotten in the way, and that's just off the top of my head.

That's basically what her character has become now days. If you read how Chuck Dixon wrote her, she was written has mature and competent. Writers decided later to make her the ultimate foil to Cass and Tim as a plot gimmick. But even then, the Robin/Spoiler special shows her taking down a lot of baddies in Africa and saving Leslie Thompkins life.

Indeed. I notice that Cool Thatguy doesn't mention anything other than post-Dixon material.

Without getting into the larger debate, I think the thing that surprises me the most is that so many people list Steph "being fired" as Robin and initiating War Games as strikes against her, without placing the bulk of that blame squarely where it belongs: on Bruce. He as good as admitted to Alfred that he only made Steph Robin as a petty slap in the face to Tim, he fired her for a mistake that was more minor than some that both Dick and Tim have made in the past, and he handled the entire situation like an infant. As for War Games... I'll grant that it wasn't Steph's brightest moment, but gosh, Bruce, for a trusted partner from whom you don't keep secrets, sure seems odd that you didn't happen to mention the one false identity that you use more than any other. Bit of an oversight, eh? I've read a lot of stuff about War Games, but I don't think I've ever heard someone say, "The lion's share of the blame for this is unquestionably on Bruce's shoulders. His immense emotional immaturity and criminal negligence in allowing someone access to his secret headquarters and massively powerful computers without sharing with her even the most basic aspects of his information-gathering processes led to a lot of people getting killed. He is not fit to be Batman anymore." I suppose it's not odd that we're willing to forgive the icon for his massive screw-ups, but it's a shame that by default, it then all has to get shifted over to a character who really doesn't deserve it.

Good points. Here's another:

Cassandra fans are always complaining that the Beechen issues do not do her justice or portray her in an appropriate manner. If that's true, by extension, it would be unfair to judge her character on the basis of these issues.

So why not do Stephanie the same courtesy? The Stephanie/ Robin and War Games issues do not do Steph justice or portray her in an appropriate manner. And yet these are typically the issues that are cited in posts critical of Stephanie. How is that fair?

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Wow, that was snide. It's like you're calling him "illiterate" just because his opinion of Spoiler is lesser than yours. That sounds like one of the personal attacks you tell us not to engage in.

Nope, that's your language, not mine. I meant nothing of the kind so I'll thank you not to read your own thoughts in between the lines.

Sour grapes? I told the truth. Insult me all you must. It won't change the fact that DC mistreats its Batgirl (and Supergirl) characters.

It's not an insult, it's a simple matter of observation. All a person has to do is read a fraction of your posts to see how obsessed you are with this subject.

[UltraMagnetic]

The problem with Cass is that her WTF-ery was starting to get as big as Batman's.

[Kent H]

The original title for this thread was more accurate - better Batgirl.

To all you people who like Steph as Batgirl, I hope DC doesn't destroy your precious Batgirl the way they so thoroughly destroyed Babs and Cass. DC treats its Batgirls like crap. I hope you are spared that, but I doubt you will be.

Babs has not been treated like crap. Cass has been treated questionably, but not like crap.

I was also a Supergirl fan. And DC treats them pretty terribly as well.

Funny, I thought we were being treated pretty damn well. Unless you mean that Earth Angel crap that would have been fine as its own character, but was a mockery as Supergirl. I'm perfectly fine with what happened there.

[Doug Side]

I guess I'll just restate what has already been said.

Stephanie written by Dixon was brash, impulsive and undiciplined, but not incompetent. A lot of the over the top mess-ups that she has been responsable for after his run don't really best represent her potential as a character. I just hope that the author can properly tap into that potential.

Stephanie is a very imperfect and human character, and that is what makes her such a great one. Unfortunatley, some authors tend to drasticaly overplay her imperfections to the point of making her completly incompetent.

[paulski]

Damn good post, Doug. As usual.

And from what I've seen, Miller's treading the line between making Steph a cocky smartass and a competent member of the Bat family, and doing it pretty nicely thus far. I look forward to seeing where he takes the book and character.

[paulski]

To all you people who like Steph as Batgirl, I hope DC doesn't destroy your precious Batgirl the way they so thoroughly destroyed Babs and Cass. DC treats its Batgirls like crap. I hope you are spared that, but I doubt you will be.

Wow.

Suffice it to say, I disagree.

And incidentally, Batwoman doesn't suck either, regardless of what your sig says.

[MTL76]

And from what I've seen, Miller's treading the line between making Steph a cocky smartass and a competent member of the Bat family, and doing it pretty nicely thus far. I look forward to seeing where he takes the book and character.

I agree. It's painfully clear that most of the negative comments in this thread stem not from dissatisfaction with the creative team, but from dissappointment with the choice of who's in the Batgirl costume.

Which is fine. I would just rather not be beaten over the head with that opinion... on every single every new Batgirl thread that gets posted... over and over and over.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Indeed. I notice that Cool Thatguy doesn't mention anything other than post-Dixon material..

And I notice that while you cite Dixon, you don't actually cite anything he's, ya know, written.

And kinda ignore that he hasn't been Steph's primary writer for a long while.

Oh! And forget that Dixon was the one who write the plotline when Steph got pregnant.

So yeah, the 'Dixon wrote her as responsible and capable' doesn't hold water with me just because you want it to.

Good points. Here's another:

Cassandra fans are always complaining that the Beechen issues do not do her justice or portray her in an appropriate manner. If that's true, by extension, it would be unfair to judge her character on the basis of these issues.

So why not do Stephanie the same courtesy? The Stephanie/ Robin and War Games issues do not do Steph justice or portray her in an appropriate manner. And yet these are typically the issues that are cited in posts critical of Stephanie. How is that fair?

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. .

The difference is that it's one writer who has his facts wrong vs. dozens of writers who wrote Steph.

People hold War Games against Steph because for a long time, Steph was written as someone who had something to prove, someone who got in over their head alot and who wasn't capable of doing the job. This went on for a long time before War Games

In contrast, Beechen got his facts wrong and tried to pretend that he didn't screw up. There's a vast difference between the two.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I agree. It's painfully clear that most of the negative comments in this thread stem not from dissatisfaction with the creative team, but from dissappointment with the choice of who's in the Batgirl costume.

Which is fine. I would just rather not be beaten over the head with that opinion... on every single every new Batgirl thread that gets posted... over and over and over.


Actually, I would have been fine to ignore this thread had 'Why Steph makes a great Batgirl' been the original name. But it wasn't, and that's how I got pulled in.

Also, while the thread title was changed, the comments inside did not. So yeah, we have cause to be here.

[MTL76]

Actually, I would have been fine to ignore this thread had 'Why Steph makes a great Batgirl' been the original name. But it wasn't, and that's how I got pulled in.

Also, while the thread title was changed, the comments inside did not. So yeah, we have cause to be here.

I'm not questioning your right to post, just wondering what you hope to get out of it. And who you're referring to when you say "we". Because it seems like trolling at this point.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I'm not questioning your right to post, just wondering what you hope to get out of it. And who you're referring to when you say "we". Because it seems like trolling at this point.

We get the same thing out of defending our character that you get out of defending Spoiler. It's not a complex issue.

As for the 'we', I was referring to who you were referriing to when you said "It's painfully clear that most of the negative comments in this thread stem not from dissatisfaction with the creative team, but from dissappointment with the choice of who's in the Batgirl costume."

You cast a pretty wide net with that comment, and I was defending those caught within it. Defending people who are generalized isn't the sign of a troll. Though I would say that the reverse, is.

[invisiboy]

Nope, that's your language, not mine. I meant nothing of the kind so I'll thank you not to read your own thoughts in between the lines.

It's not an insult, it's a simple matter of observation. All a person has to do is read a fraction of your posts to see how obsessed you are with this subject.

Then, please, enlighten me as to what you truly meant when you posted the following: "Guess you haven't read too much." It sounds like a pretty rude comment to me, especially since you typed it on its own line. But, please explain.

Oh, and excellent work on getting an insult to me in there. And we were getting along so well! "Obsessed" is a psychiatric term, one used for people with a mental disorder. I don't have a problem with obsession, but I do have a problem with bullies, rudeness, etc. I have been trying to appreciate your opinions and point of view -- despite your occasionally confrontational behavior in these forums -- and I would hope you would extend me the same courtesy.

By the way, this thread seems to be off-topic, so you may want to close it. After you have the final word, of course.

[invisiboy]

The original title for this thread was more accurate - better Batgirl

Babs has not been treated like crap. Cass has been treated questionably, but not like crap.

Funny, I thought we were being treated pretty damn well. Unless you mean that Earth Angel crap that would have been fine as its own character, but was a mockery as Supergirl. I'm perfectly fine with what happened there.

I offer the following evidence as to why I believe DC treats its Batgirl and Supergirl characters like crap:

1. For the sake of argument, let's include Betty Kane in this discuission. She was Bat-Girl, was published six times and retired after three years (in 1963). Then she was obliterated from continuity by the COIE. I won't even get into what DC did to the original Batwoman.

2. Babs debuted in late 1966 and quickly became a popular character. Cartoons, dolls, clothes, lunch boxes, the whole bit. In 1982, DC pretty much abandoned the character and used her only sporadically before gunning her down in The Killing Joke in 1988. DC then had no plans to use Babs again. We have John Ostrander, the writer, to thank for Oracle. DC editors didn't care about her anymore and had tossed her aside.

3. Enter Helena Bertinelli, who was The Bat, then Batgirl, until Batman stripped her of the name. Batman did this because Helena failed to stop a large group of bad guys single-handedly, even though he was uselessly unconcious at the time.

4. Cassandra Cain. Her solo series was announced before the character even appeared, and DC was behind her at the beginning. However, it didn't take long for DC to start messing with her character, making her evil and whatnot. She got one last (terrible) miniseries before giving up the Batgirl name, which was poorly handled in Batgirl #1.

5. Kara/pre-Crisis Supergirl: Killed in COIE saving Superman's life. She had to die to elevate Superman to the status of "last remaining Krypton". She was then wiped from ever having existed.

6. Matrix was the first post-Crisis Supergirl. After only eight years of publication, DC merged her with a human girl (Linda Danvers), depowering her in the process. She lost most of her shapeshifting ability and all her cloaking powers. Supergirl was then split from Linda, and she spent more than 20 issues of her series absent while Linda pretended to ber Supergirl. A few issues before the '90s Supergirl series ended, Matrix was found by Linda, at which point Matrix transferred a set of her powers to Linda, and officially gave Linda the Supergirl name ...

7. Linda was Supergirl in her own right for only four or five issues before she was shoved into comic-book limbo to make room for ...

8. Cir-El was used maybe a year or two before being wiped form existence. (She wasn't popular.) Which brings us to ...

9. Post-Crisis Kara Supergirl, who has been treated so sloppily that she has as muddled an origin as Power Girl used to.

In conclusion, and on topic, I will say Stephanie is a great Batgirl. To poop on. :tongue:

[invisiboy]

dupe ... sorry

[DetectiveDupin]

Actually, I would have been fine to ignore this thread had 'Why Steph makes a great Batgirl' been the original name. But it wasn't, and that's how I got pulled in.

Also, while the thread title was changed, the comments inside did not. So yeah, we have cause to be here.

You're free to leave this thread at any time.


I love Stephanie Brown, she's always been a really fun character.

[DetectiveDupin]

I offer the following evidence as to why I believe DC treats its Batgirl and Supergirl characters like crap:

1. For the sake of argument, let's include Betty Kane in this discuission. She was Bat-Girl, was published six times and retired after three years (in 1963). Then she was obliterated from continuity by the COIE. I won't even get into what DC did to the original Batwoman.

2. Babs debuted in late 1966 and quickly became a popular character. Cartoons, dolls, clothes, lunch boxes, the whole bit. In 1982, DC pretty much abandoned the character and used her only sporadically before gunning her down in The Killing Joke in 1988. DC then had no plans to use Babs again. We have John Ostrander, the writer, to thank for Oracle. DC editors didn't care about her anymore and had tossed her aside.

3. Enter Helena Bertinelli, who was The Bat, then Batgirl, until Batman stripped her of the name. Batman did this because Helena failed to stop a large group of bad guys single-handedly, even though he was uselessly unconcious at the time.

4. Cassandra Cain. Her solo series was announced before the character even appeared, and DC was behind her at the beginning. However, it didn't take long for DC to start messing with her character, making her evil and whatnot. She got one last (terrible) miniseries before giving up the Batgirl name, which was poorly handled in Batgirl #1.

5. Kara/pre-Crisis Supergirl: Killed in COIE saving Superman's life. She had to die to elevate Superman to the status of "last remaining Krypton". She was then wiped from ever having existed.

6. Matrix was the first post-Crisis Supergirl. After only eight years of publication, DC merged her with a human girl (Linda Danvers), depowering her in the process. She lost most of her shapeshifting ability and all her cloaking powers. Supergirl was then split from Linda, and she spent more than 20 issues of her series absent while Linda pretended to ber Supergirl. A few issues before the '90s Supergirl series ended, Matrix was found by Linda, at which point Matrix transferred a set of her powers to Linda, and officially gave Linda the Supergirl name ...

7. Linda was Supergirl in her own right for only four or five issues before she was shoved into comic-book limbo to make room for ...

8. Cir-El was used maybe a year or two before being wiped form existence. (She wasn't popular.) Which brings us to ...

9. Post-Crisis Kara Supergirl, who has been treated so sloppily that she has as muddled an origin as Power Girl used to.

In conclusion, and on topic, I will say Stephanie is a great Batgirl. To poop on. :tongue:

That's no reason to dislike nor make crude statements about Stephanie Brown.

[invisiboy]

That's no reason to dislike nor make crude statements about Stephanie Brown.

I was kidding! Ever hear of Triumph the Insult Comic Dog? I get in trouble for getting off topic, so I added that as a joke. I'm not a fan of hers, but I got nothing against Stephanie. Does she gel for me as Batgirl? No. But I don't hate her character.

As for there being "no reason" to dislike Stephanie, I imagine lots of fans would disagree with you.

[The Cool Thatguy]

You're free to leave this thread at any time.


I love Stephanie Brown, she's always been a really fun character.

Yup, I am. But deride myself or a character I like, and I'll speak up. This concept shouldn't be that mind boggling.

[DetectiveDupin]

I was kidding! Ever hear of Triumph the Insult Comic Dog? I get in trouble for getting off topic, so I added that as a joke. I'm not a fan of hers, but I got nothing against Stephanie. Does she gel for me as Batgirl? No. But I don't hate her character.

As for there being "no reason" to dislike Stephanie, I imagine lots of fans would disagree with you.

Triumph is neither here nor there. And fact is, this is a character appreciation thread. If you don't like the character, there is no reason to go to a thread where there are obviously going to be fans.

[DetectiveDupin]

Yup, I am. But deride myself or a character I like, and I'll speak up. This concept shouldn't be that mind boggling.

I don't think anyone said anything particularly horrible about Cassandra or Barbara.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I don't think anyone said anything particularly horrible about Cassandra or Barbara.

Horrible? No. But...

"IMO, Stephanie Brown is right for Bat-girl because A) She is young, unlike Barbara, and B) because she is a much more light-hearted character than Cassandra Cain, whom never really meshed well with the other members of the Bat-family IMO. Cassandra was like Bruce but even more alone. I mean, Bruce even adopted her but she really hasn't been featured with him in some time. When I think of Bat-girl, I think of a fun, vibrant character and Cassandra clearly isn't like that. Steph has ties to the family, she's more accessible, so I think more people should give her a chance."

...were by no means compliments to their characters.

You started this thread to state how Steph was the superior choice. So please don't complain when people disagree with you.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Triumph is neither here nor there. And fact is, this is a character appreciation thread. If you don't like the character, there is no reason to go to a thread where there are obviously going to be fans.

That's straight bull, and you know it.

[DetectiveDupin]

Horrible? No. But...

"IMO, Stephanie Brown is right for Bat-girl because A) She is young, unlike Barbara, and B) because she is a much more light-hearted character than Cassandra Cain, whom never really meshed well with the other members of the Bat-family IMO. Cassandra was like Bruce but even more alone. I mean, Bruce even adopted her but she really hasn't been featured with him in some time. When I think of Bat-girl, I think of a fun, vibrant character and Cassandra clearly isn't like that. Steph has ties to the family, she's more accessible, so I think more people should give her a chance."

...were by no means compliments to their characters.

You started this thread to state how Steph was the superior choice. So please don't complain when people disagree with you.

If you perceive those qualities in a negative aspect that's on you. Obviously Dick is much too old to be Robin, and Bruce is a dark character. Stung by that too? It's no secret that Cassandra is dark and Barbara has aged.

[DetectiveDupin]

That's straight bull, and you know it.

Yes it is, I should have foreseen that many comic books fans just love to argue for argument's sake. How many times have we gone over this? Fact is, Stephanie Brown is Batgirl. Barbara and Cassandra have had their time, and now it's Stephanie's. Give it a rest.

[The Cool Thatguy]

If you perceive those qualities in a negative aspect that's on you. Obviously Dick is much too old to be Robin, and Bruce is a dark character. Stung by that too? It's no secret that Cassandra is dark and Barbara has aged.

Being Cass being dark removes her from the Batgirl role how, exactly? Batbooks lean towards noir, ya know.

Please, spare me the martyr act. You started this thread for the purpose of debate. When you did that, you should have expected people to disagree with you. If you can't handle it, then that's on you.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Yes it is, I should have foreseen that many comic books fans just love to argue for argument's sake. How many times have we gone over this? Fact is, Stephanie Brown is Batgirl. Barbara and Cassandra have had their time, and now it's Stephanie's. Give it a rest.

You started this thread for the sake of proving Steph was the superoir choice as Batgirl. I disagreed and things have gone from there.

That's not argument for the sake of argument, it was the whole purpose of the thread. Only now you're playing the victim because plenty of people strongly disagree.

Honestly, grow up.

[DetectiveDupin]

Being Cass being dark removes her from the Batgirl role how, exactly? Batbooks lean towards noir, ya know.

Please, spare me the martyr act. You started this thread for the purpose of debate. When you did that, you should have expected people to disagree with you. If you can't handle it, then that's on you.

Bat-books lean toward Noir, yes, but the inclusion of Robin and Batgirl is supposed to lighten the story up. I perceive Batgirl as a light character. Debate is fine, but when it turns to a "I wish Babs or Cass was still Batgirl" thread then I take some issue with it.

[DetectiveDupin]

You started this thread for the sake of proving Steph was the superoir choice as Batgirl. I disagreed and things have gone from there.

That's not argument for the sake of argument, it was the whole purpose of the thread. Only now you're playing the victim because plenty of people strongly disagree.

Honestly, grow up.

Plenty of people strongly disagree? If I remember correctly it's only you and Invisiboy. And I am not playing 'victim', I just want to cease an argument that is going nowhere.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Bat-books lean toward Noir, yes, but the inclusion of Robin and Batgirl is supposed to lighten the story up. I perceive Batgirl as a light character. Debate is fine, but when it turns to a "I wish Babs or Cass was still Batgirl" thread then I take some issue with it.

So? You don't get to control the debate, nor do you get to change the rules after the game's started.

Plenty of people strongly disagree? If I remember correctly it's only you and Invisiboy. And I am not playing 'victim', I just want to cease an argument that is going nowhere.

Well, that's because you have a terribly selective memory.

Barlion agreed with me, Xenos likes Cass as Batgirl, as does []D[]/\/\[]D @ Nite/So-tite, dreyga2000 and carabas.

So yeah, no Lone Gunmen here. But nice effort to make the debate about us, and not Batgirl(s).

If the debate is goin' nowhere, well...nothin's keeping you here.

[MTL76]

As for the 'we', I was referring to who you were referring to when you said "It's painfully clear that most of the negative comments in this thread stem not from dissatisfaction with the creative team, but from disappointment with the choice of who's in the Batgirl costume."


Honestly, is there anything incorrect about that statement?

You've made your points:

A) Cassandra Cain and Barbara Gordon have been crapped on by DC.
B) Cassandra Cain is the best choice for Batgirl.
C) Stephanie Brown is a poor substitute.
D) This book is doomed to fail.

I think that about sums it up. Fine. We get it. The problem is, these same comments come up from the same people on every Batgirl thread. So what's the point?

Yes, this thread originally had a confrontational title, and it was promptly changed to something less divisive. So just let it go. No one is attacking the other Batgirls. I repeat, no one is attacking the other Batgirls. If you like, I can start a thread entitled, "Steph Brown is better than the other Batgirls at EVERYTHING", not because I particularly want to or believe that to be true, but so we can have a place for these circular arguments that seem to derail every Batgirl thread.

[invisiboy]

Plenty of people strongly disagree? If I remember correctly it's only you and Invisiboy. And I am not playing 'victim', I just want to cease an argument that is going nowhere.

I don't recall strongly disagreeing in this thread. I made one silly Triumph the Insult Comic Dog joke.

Are senses of humor in short supply? On back order?

[The Cool Thatguy]

Honestly, is there anything incorrect about that statement?

You've made your points:

A) Cassandra Cain and Barbara Gordon have been crapped on by DC.
B) Cassandra Cain is the best choice for Batgirl.
C) Stephanie Brown is a poor substitute.
D) This book is doomed to fail.

I think that about sums it up. Fine. We get it. The problem is, these same comments come up from the same people on every Batgirl thread. So what's the point?

Yes, this thread originally had a confrontational title, and it was promptly changed to something less divisive. So just let it go. No one is attacking the other Batgirls. I repeat, no one is attacking the other Batgirls. If you like, I can start a thread entitled, "Steph Brown is better than the other Batgirls at EVERYTHING", not because I particularly want to or believe that to be true, but so we can have a place for these circular arguments that seem to derail every Batgirl thread.

Take the title and keep the name...well, there's a rhyme about that involving profanity. And it applies here.

Personally, I dislike the series from top to bottom. From the plotting to characterization. If you like it, fine.

But you have no right to complain that a confrontational thread just won't stop. You whine about how we're making it bad for Steph fans like yourself, but ignore the salt you added to our wounds.

This thread started as a debate about the superior Batgirl. You just don't like the reponse.

[invisiboy]

Honestly, is there anything incorrect about that statement?

You've made your points:

A) Cassandra Cain and Barbara Gordon have been crapped on by DC.
B) Cassandra Cain is the best choice for Batgirl.
C) Stephanie Brown is a poor substitute.
D) This book is doomed to fail.

I think that about sums it up. Fine. We get it. The problem is, these same comments come up from the same people on every Batgirl thread. So what's the point?

Yes, this thread originally had a confrontational title, and it was promptly changed to something less divisive. So just let it go. No one is attacking the other Batgirls. I repeat, no one is attacking the other Batgirls. If you like, I can start a thread entitled, "Steph Brown is better than the other Batgirls at EVERYTHING", not because I particularly want to or believe that to be true, but so we can have a place for these circular arguments that seem to derail every Batgirl thread.


In my opinion, DC does its very best to divide Batgirl fans three ways. If DC would stop passing the Batgirl name around like a hot potato, fans might be able to focus on issues other than who is the Batgirl this week. Seriously, not even counting Babs, DC has published four different mainstream Batgirls in the last 10 years. It's tedious.

Some people may enjoy having multiple versions of Robin, Batgirl, Aquaman, Hawkman, Flash, or whoever -- but the revolving door/crutch on which DC relies (all too often) serves to alienate older fans who are attached to the characters and also teaches newer fans how disposable most DC characters truly are. (Why even care, ya know?) And recycling all these codenames over and over and over shows how unimaginative DC's editors truly are.

[Alan2099]

Cass would be far better suiited to strike out with an identity that's strictly her own instead of tying her so strongly to the bat-clan.

[Forth World]

Seriously, not even counting Babs, DC has published four different manistream Batgirls in the last 10 years. It's tedious.

And the same for Supergirl. DC does not treat characters like this well, at all.

[Lovefloor]

In my opinion, DC does its very best to divide Batgirl fans three ways. If DC would stop passing the Batgirl name around like a hot potato, fans might be able to focus on issues other than who is the Batgirl this week. Seriously, not even counting Babs, DC has published four different manistream Batgirls in the last 10 years. It's tedious.

Some people may enjoy having multiple versions of Robin, Batgirl, Aquaman, Hawkman, Flash, or whoever -- but the revolving door/crutch on which DC relies (all too often) serves to alienate older fans who are attached to the characters and also teaches newer fans how disposable most DC characters truly are. (Why even care, ya know?) And recycling all these codenames over and over and over shows how unimaginative DC's editors truly are.

(I am an eventual lurker of this board, i actually stay on that terrible DC board... because i feel that there i am near of ordinary/casual/new dc fans)

With this post of yours, you manage to make me waste 5 minutes of my life.
To click on "register". Put my information. Create an e-mail. Click in the confirmation mail. Log in.

All that just to say:

QFT


DC does its very best to divide Batgirl fans three ways.
[...]
...DC has published four different manistream Batgirls in the last 10 years.
[...]
Some people may enjoy having multiple versions of Robin, Batgirl, Aquaman, Hawkman, Flash, or whoever -- but the revolving door/crutch on which DC relies (all too often) serves to alienate older fans who are attached to the characters and also teaches newer fans how disposable most DC characters truly are. (Why even care, ya know?) And recycling all these codenames over and over and over shows how unimaginative DC's editors truly are.


Seriously, what is DC problem?!
4 Batgirls, 4 Robins, 3 flashes, 4 lanterns, 2 Batmans, 2 Arrows... etc...

I guess they got a twisted and corrupted interpretation of that famous phrase: "Divide and Conquer"( or "Divide to Conquer").

Because i can not really understand what they are doing. Specially with this new Batgirl.

1) They choose steph, on the last minute, and kicked the original writer(Gail). ---> Bad idea, pissed off a lot of people that was thinking about their favorite batgirls. Specially babs fans.

2) They treat cass character like **** ---> pissed off cass fans.

3) They are using babs ooc, and they are making her bitter on a over-process of over-victimization, that is exactly what babs fans hate, considering the character past ---> pissed off babs fans

4) They take Steph as that "wargames" version, and now the character is totally overshadowed by the "dark" babs ---> Even some steph fans are pissed off too.

Seriously, if I ever wish to call haters on me... i would use this DC strategy.

(And to make things worst, the writer sucks, the story is infantile, that mentor-apprentice thing is cliché, and the story is predictable.... )

This batgirl book, and the DC editorial decisions behind it... really, really disturb any logical approach.
I can not understand.

[invisiboy]

And the same for Supergirl. DC does not treat characters like this well, at all.

Even though I am not fond of either the new Batgirl or new Supergirl, I hope DC settles with them and stops the revolving door. Enough already, ya know?

[Kent H]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having multiple characters using the same title. Legacies and Corps are something to embrace, not whine about.

That said, the revolving thing can get annoying. But there is a difference between a revolving name, and a legacy name.

[DetectiveDupin]

I don't recall strongly disagreeing in this thread. I made one silly Triumph the Insult Comic Dog joke.

Are senses of humor in short supply? On back order?

Not my words, Thatcoolguy's.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Not my words, Thatcoolguy's.

"If I remember correctly it's only you and Invisiboy."

Those are your words and you were referring to me and Invisiboy.

See what happens when you make blanket statements?

[Captain Jim]

I agree. It's painfully clear that most of the negative comments in this thread stem not from dissatisfaction with the creative team, but from dissappointment with the choice of who's in the Batgirl costume.

Which is fine. I would just rather not be beaten over the head with that opinion... on every single every new Batgirl thread that gets posted... over and over and over.

You are absolutely correct.

And I notice that while you cite Dixon, you don't actually cite anything he's, ya know, written.

And kinda ignore that he hasn't been Steph's primary writer for a long while.

Really? Maybe you should check out Robin #170--174 and Robin/Spoiler Special, you know, the arc in which she returned, which was published just last year. All of which are more recent than the War Games stories you keep bringing up.

Oh! And forget that Dixon was the one who write the plotline when Steph got pregnant.

How could I forget it? That was an awesome story!

So yeah, the 'Dixon wrote her as responsible and capable' doesn't hold water with me just because you want it to.

More like you don't want it to.

I'm not questioning your right to post, just wondering what you hope to get out of it. And who you're referring to when you say "we". Because it seems like trolling at this point.

He does have a point Cool Thatguy. Pretty much the only time you show up on this forum is to bitch about Batgirl.

"Obsessed" is a psychiatric term, one used for people with a mental disorder.

Well, the dictionary says, "to dominate or preoccupy the thoughts, feelings, or desires of; to think about something unceasingly or persistently." I think the word fits. Nothing about a mental disorder there. Once again, you're putting words into my mouth.

I don't have a problem with obsession, but I do have a problem with bullies, rudeness, etc. I have been trying to appreciate your opinions and point of view -- despite your occasionally confrontational behavior in these forums

What you call confrontational I call moderating the forum. Funny how few other people here feel bullied like you do. Seriously, if you have problems with me, you would be better off sending a PM rather than airing your dirty laundry in public.

I4. Cassandra Cain. Her solo series was announced before the character even appeared, and DC was behind her at the beginning. However, it didn't take long for DC to start messing with her character, making her evil and whatnot.

Didn't take long? She had her own book for six years and 73 issues. I'd say that's a pretty respectable run.

5. Kara/pre-Crisis Supergirl: Killed in COIE saving Superman's life. She had to die to elevate Superman to the status of "last remaining Krypton". She was then wiped from ever having existed.

There were multiple issues going on here. For one, sales on the Supergirl comic sucked at this time. For another (as you allude), John Byrne was getting ready to reboot an overly complex Superman continuity and make him the sole survivor of Krypton. Seemed like a good idea at the time. You're free to disagree about that, but don't read in some nefarious intentions that weren't there.

Honestly, is there anything incorrect about that statement?

You've made your points:

A) Cassandra Cain and Barbara Gordon have been crapped on by DC.
B) Cassandra Cain is the best choice for Batgirl.
C) Stephanie Brown is a poor substitute.
D) This book is doomed to fail.

I think that about sums it up. Fine. We get it. The problem is, these same comments come up from the same people on every Batgirl thread. So what's the point?

Yes, this thread originally had a confrontational title, and it was promptly changed to something less divisive. So just let it go. No one is attacking the other Batgirls. I repeat, no one is attacking the other Batgirls. If you like, I can start a thread entitled, "Steph Brown is better than the other Batgirls at EVERYTHING", not because I particularly want to or believe that to be true, but so we can have a place for these circular arguments that seem to derail every Batgirl thread.

Correct once again.


1) They choose steph, on the last minute, and kicked the original writer(Gail). ---> Bad idea, pissed off a lot of people that was thinking about their favorite batgirls. Specially babs fans.

Hold on, where did anybody ever say that Gail was "kicked off" this project? I don't think that's accurate.

[Vakanai]

Legacies and Corps are something to embrace, not whine about.

There are differing opinions on that.
In general, I find I hate the concept of 'legacy' characters.

Not so much with Corps though.

[The Cool Thatguy]

You are absolutely correct..

I find it both hilarious and hypocritical that people are complaining about Cass' defenders in a thread meant to debate the superiority of one Batgirl over the other.

We didn't start this fight, but because we got involved, we're guilty of...somethin'.

Really? Maybe you should check out Robin #170--174 and Robin/Spoiler Special, you know, the arc in which she returned, which was published just last year. All of which are more recent than the War Games stories you keep bringing up..

In over ten years of publishing, you can only cite perhaps maybe three out of dozens upon dozens of stories, showing Steph capable. Like you're trying to make a mountain outta a sandbar

How could I forget it? That was an awesome story!.

And it was pretty damn irresponsible of Steph, regardless.

More like you don't want it to..

Yes, your three vague examples are such excellent counter points :rolleyes:

He does have a point Cool Thatguy. Pretty much the only time you show up on this forum is to bitch about Batgirl..

Yes, I usually do so when when someone insults the character. DC's defacto eugenic really gets under my skin, what can I say? And Cass is a victim that I like best.

But it balances out, since you have a knee jerk habit of shutting down Cassandra Cain threads for the slightest infraction.

[Captain Jim]

In over ten years of publishing, you can only cite perhaps maybe three out of dozens upon dozens of stories, showing Steph capable. Like you're trying to make a mountain outta a sandbar

No, I was responding to your claim that Dixon hadn't written the character for a long time.

And it was pretty damn irresponsible of Steph, regardless.

Hmm, well, I would say it was pretty human of her. And pretty responsible that she chose adoption over abortion. (Being an adoptive parent, I'm particularly sensitive to that.)

But it balances out, since you have a knee jerk habit of shutting down Cassandra Cain threads for the slightest infraction.

Really? Offhand I can't remember of any Cassandra threads I've closed. (Though I've closed a couple of other threads that were hijacked by people who wanted to argue about Cassie.) In fact, the Cassandra Cain appreciation thread has never been closed and was being posted in regularly, I believe, for a period of months.

[carabas]

You are absolutely correct.Mind you, most of us got in this when this thread was still called "Why Steph is a better Batgirl", which sorta does make our getting involved reasonable since this did not start out as a pure Steph thread but as a thread comparing Steph to previous Batgirls.

As has already been pointed out.

[paulski]

Wellllll... I first noticed it a little over 24 hours ago. By that stage, the thread title had already been changed and it was still only on its first page of responses. As such, I was trying to work out what all the 'hoohah' was about.

Sure, most of you die-hard Cassandra fans had already put in your two cents worth, but it was still pretty darn early on, and, let's face it, some of you guys don't need much provocation to get your blood boiling about the subject anyway. :wink:

[DetectiveDupin]

Captain Jim, can you please close this thread now that it's derailed? I am sick of going back in forth with rehashed debates. I naively thought this thread could be purely character appreciation, and obviously I was wrong.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Captain Jim, can you please close this thread now that it's derailed? I am sick of going back in forth with rehashed debates. I naively thought this thread could be purely character appreciation, and obviously I was wrong.

This thread was started to show how you felt Steph was better than other characters. So please stop playing the victim, eh?

[DetectiveDupin]

This thread was started to show how you felt Steph was better than other characters. So please stop playing the victim, eh?

I'm not playing the "victim". You seriously have to find better things to do other than instigating arguments with others. This thread has just gone back to "Babs could've been..." or "Cass can..." or "Spoiler...". All Batgirl threads regress in the same way. I stated my reasons with excitement and appreciation for Stephanie Brown, not with disdain for Barbara or Cassandra. I like those characters as well, and never had a cross word against them. This is the last time I will reply to you, I am tired of your absolute intent to argue, not debate, and the overall immaturity you show in attacking someone who has clearly said they want the argument to be over. Fine, you win, whatever. I still want this thread to be closed and do not wish to continue sharing words with you.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I'm not playing the "victim". You seriously have to find better things to do other than instigating arguments with others. This thread has just gone back to "Babs could've been..." or "Cass can..." or "Spoiler...". All Batgirl threads regress in the same way. I stated my reasons with excitement and appreciation for Stephanie Brown, not with disdain for Barbara or Cassandra. I like those characters as well, and never had a cross word against them. This is the last time I will reply to you, I am tired of your absolute intent to argue, not debate, and the overall immaturity you show in attacking someone who has clearly said they want the argument to be over. Fine, you win, whatever. I still want this thread to be closed and do not wish to continue sharing words with you.

What did you expect when you opened with 'Why Steph is the best Batgirl and here's why?'

I disagreed and put up my points. That's what debate is. You wanted to prove her the best, fine. That you didn't expect anyone to disagree with you is mind boggling.

[Freakzeek]

A title named "Why Steph is a better Batgirl" doesn't seem like pure character apperciation to me

[Freakzeek]

Horrible? No. But...

"IMO, Stephanie Brown is right for Bat-girl because A) She is young, unlike Barbara, and B) because she is a much more light-hearted character than Cassandra Cain, whom never really meshed well with the other members of the Bat-family IMO. Cassandra was like Bruce but even more alone. I mean, Bruce even adopted her but she really hasn't been featured with him in some time. When I think of Bat-girl, I think of a fun, vibrant character and Cassandra clearly isn't like that. Steph has ties to the family, she's more accessible, so I think more people should give her a chance."

...were by no means compliments to their characters.

You started this thread to state how Steph was the superior choice. So please don't complain when people disagree with you.

http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww318/Freakzeek_2009/1253043660742.png

[The Cool Thatguy]

A title named "Why Steph is a better Batgirl" doesn't seem like pure character apperciation to me

Seriously. Try Steph Brown apperciation thread next time. You'd have better luck than trying to change the debate subject long after it's already started.

[Captain Jim]

Whatever. The OP has asked for the thread to be closed and given what a train wreak it's become, I don't require a lot of convincing.