Changes That Would Make The Outsiders Better

[Ikonic]

Drop: Creeper

Add: Steel

Elevate: Black Lightning as leader of the Outsiders (He needs better use)

Costume Changes For: Black Lightning and Geo-Force (Their current duds are dreadful)

Most importantly:
Allow this team to grow from being under the shadow of the bat. Meaning Alfred should no longer be pulling the strings. Maybe he could just operate as an info guy from time to time. This team needs to mature and stand on their own merits.

[titanfan]

Pretty sure that eventually BL will be leader of the team. There seems to be a sub plot going on of Geo Force being unstable/too goal oriented.

This is a good book overall, if I had to be nit picky, I'd say that there needs to be a bit more character moments and the screen time seems really unbalanced with GF, BL, and Katana seemingly getting almost all of the screen time. If I were a new reader of the series, I'd have no idea what Halo and Creeper's powers were. (And I don't think the artist even knows what Halo's powers are as she's in the wrong aura several times)

[Apathetic-piggy]

Better use of the entire team. A lot of times I'm wondering what happened to some members, though at the moment Halo seems the most extreme case. I'd also like a bit more Creeper.

Titanfan seems to have the right idea, to be honest. Read their post.

Cheers.

[DetectiveDupin]

More Alfred. Alfred is awesome.

[Desaad]

Getting Nicieza to write it would be a start. Anyone who read his Thunderbolts knows what kind of magic he can work with these kind of side teams filled with relatively nobodies.

[DetectiveDupin]

More Alfred. Alfred is awesome.

And now that I know, less Didio.

[Personamanx]

Bring back the exact team line-up from when it was "Batman & The Outsiders" excluding Batman of course (Unless it's Dick Grayson).

[Clockan]

i like the current team.. i dont think it needs to be changed... other than batman needs to be leader again... im really happy to see halo again... and in a much better costume now too

im also in favor if the idea of putting fabian on that book... he really is a great writer.. loved what he did with robin

[ryerye17]

Put Looker back in.

[Brack360]

Bring back Thunder and Grace. Drop Geo-Force, Halo, The Creeper, and Owlman. And also bring back Batgirl (Cassandra Cain) to anchor the team. This book needs a big-name character like Batman, Nightwing, or Batgirl in order to be commercially viable.

[DetectiveDupin]

Is Cassie Cain still Batgirl? I thought Stephanie Brown was.

[earl]

I'd make the Outsiders a really out there team comic like Morrison's Doom Patrol or Milligan & Allred's X-Statix. The original book by Mike Barr, Jim Aparo & Alan Davis had all sorts of weird villains, so I would play on that stuff.

I'd keep the team pretty much close to the original lineup with Metamorpho, Black Lightning, Geo-Force, Katana etc and just play up the weird 'outsider' nature of the book along with some humor. I think stripping down the original Outsiders out of the lineup would make the book even more generic than it is now.

Fabian Nicieza would probably be a good writer for this book. Some of the wacky stuff he did in Cable & Deadpool would be kind of what I am talking about, except maybe a bit stranger.

[Captain Jim]

Bring back the exact team line-up from when it was "Batman & The Outsiders" excluding Batman of course.

But it already HAS that exact line-up (from the original team), plus it has Creeper and Owlman.

Is Cassie Cain still Batgirl? I thought Stephanie Brown was.

Steph is Batgirl; Cassie is not. But Cassie is still a player.

[Personamanx]

But it already HAS that exact line-up (from the original team), plus it has Creeper and Owlman.


.

I meant the Chuck Dixon team.

[Captain Jim]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Well, that explains your comment then.

[Personamanx]

Sorry about the Confusion................. I miss ReMac................

[protege]

Bring back Thunder and Grace. Drop Geo-Force, Halo, The Creeper, and Owlman. And also bring back Batgirl (Cassandra Cain) to anchor the team. This book needs a big-name character like Batman, Nightwing, or Batgirl in order to be commercially viable.

KEEP OWLMAN!

[pgonzo98]

put didio and tan on the book.:evilsmile: :evilsmile: :evilsmile:

[Desaad]

I'd make the Outsiders a really out there team comic like Morrison's Doom Patrol or Milligan & Allred's X-Statix. The original book by Mike Barr, Jim Aparo & Alan Davis had all sorts of weird villains, so I would play on that stuff.

I'd keep the team pretty much close to the original lineup with Metamorpho, Black Lightning, Geo-Force, Katana etc and just play up the weird 'outsider' nature of the book along with some humor. I think stripping down the original Outsiders out of the lineup would make the book even more generic than it is now.

Fabian Nicieza would probably be a good writer for this book. Some of the wacky stuff he did in Cable & Deadpool would be kind of what I am talking about, except maybe a bit stranger.

I half agree with you, at least.

I really agree that the "Outsiders" moniker should be made more literal, in the sense that they deal with things OUTSIDE the purview of normal superheroes and superhero teams, but I think a totally independent revamp of the concept is needed. Tying it tightly to the ever shifting Batman continuity was and is a mistake...it is too unsteady a base to support that in any way more than extremely tangential.

I think it'd be appropriate to revamp the series into it's own beast. Connect it to a governmental organization - SHADE or Checkmate - and make it the team of misfits that has to deal with the really weird, really strong stuff. If you decide to tie it to Checkmate, you've already got a near perfect "Outsiders" team in The Rooks -- Faust, Cinnamon, G.I. Robot, and Gravedigger...add in a few more (Steel, Black Lightning, Halo) and you're in business.

[Clockan]

Bring back Thunder and Grace. Drop Geo-Force, Halo, The Creeper, and Owlman. And also bring back Batgirl (Cassandra Cain) to anchor the team. This book needs a big-name character like Batman, Nightwing, or Batgirl in order to be commercially viable.

out of that i agree with possibly dropping owlman.. he seems like such an expendable character. he was very hit or miss for me. well i think he's fallen on "miss". he just feels like a really bad nite owl ripoff. even the original nite owl was kinda lame next Dr Manhattan, the comedian and Rorschach so why rip off the lamer character from the watchmen?

i really like creeper. i think he needs to be used better. same with halo and geo. cassandra cain would be interesting if she comes back as her JL elite alias. Thunder and grace i never really liked much. thunder was OK for a while but i dont miss her at all.

you know who i think would fit on this team really well... RED ROBIN... i think red robin doesnt fit into teen titans right now.. i think hes good for outsiders no doubt. have him replace nite owl as the detective.

[Forth World]

I dunno if I should even answer since I have no love for the Outsiders concept whatsoever. The way I see it, during the 80's someone said to Mikey Barr - "hey, those Marvel team comics sell good; go and make us one like that."

And they did. Outsiders is basically an X-team in the wrong universe.

So either you try to tweak the core team, which I think is a fool's errand since it doesn't really fit in the DC Universe anyway, and DC creative culture has no idea what to do with it.

Or you take the core concept (Batman/Alfred forms a team of misfits to help him out on the side) and just re-boot it entirely.

A good place to start would be to kill Geoforce. Dead. Mort. Forever,

Hey, why not bring back the Joe Simon Oustiders? Dr. Scary, Billy Bighead, Lizard Johnny, Amazing Ronnie, Mighty Mary and Hairy Larry.

http://www.dialbforblog.com/archives/158/

Endless awesome.

[cdemink]

I dunno if this has been posted yet, but the full size version of that Outsiders art is
here (http://www.batmanytb.com/news.php?readmore=980)

[Mister Blisterfists]

Bring back Dally and Pony Boy. They're the heart of the team!

[DLH1970]

Bring back Dally and Pony Boy. They're the heart of the team!

Stay gold Pony Boy. Stay gold.

[Anxy]

I'm responding to the question of this thread without first reading the other responses, which I know is a risky thing to do, but I didn't want other responses distracting or derailing my thoughts on this, since The Outsiders have been near and dear to me ever since their preview in Brave & the Bold waaaay back in the old timey days. My apologies if I'm repeating what's already been said several times over.

Like I said, I've always been a big fan of the original Outsiders. I think when the charter roster started to dissipate and the team became a halfway house for DC characters with nothing better to do, I lost my faith in the title. I did keep coming back and followed entire story arcs here and there, if nothing else to get a much needed Metamorpho fix, but the stories mostly just left me cold. None of the spirit of the original series remained. I don't really mind a team comic making huge, outrageous changes over time, but when you start messing with the essence, the energy, the spirit that makes that comic unique, you've lost me. (Which has saved me LOTS of money on X-Men comics the past few years, but that's for another forum.)

Maybe it's that a team comic is like a recipe, and the team members are its ingredients. You can switch ingredients, add or subtract ingredients, or stir in an extra cup of this or that, but if you don't get the recipe right, you're gonna end up with a crappy meal. And if you change too many of the ingredients, you have a whole 'nother recipe altogether and you'll find your Outsiders casserole has become half-baked Atari Force surprise. :eek:

Having said all that, I was obviously really happy to see the original line-up return for the latest Outsiders run, but a few issues into it I was less than plussed once again. Yeah, they're drawing all the same squiggles that were present in the original series, but the personalities beneath all those pretty drawings just aren't present.

If the dynamics that were being developed among the characters in the original run were infused into the current series, The Outsiders would shine again. I'm not saying make it a doppelganger of the original series. I'm just suggesting Didio & the gang give the characters a recollection and appreciation of their past, and how that history colors their interactions. Pretty simple, actually.

Give us the connections back. Bring back the sense of family. Give us a reason to invest in the people who make up this team.

I read someone recently make a comment that Katana treats Halo like a stranger in the current series. Now that's a damn shame. These two had a wonderfully developed relationship in the original series. Why does that need to be dismantled? How does getting rid of that dynamic make this a better comic? Frankly, I think part of the problem is that Halo's character has been messed with so much over the years, that nobody wants to undo the mess that is her identity. Well, put Gaby Doe back in that body. Even if that seems like a ridiculous suggestion, this is comics. More ridiculous things have happened. Work it out, Didio.

Also, don't muck up Metamorpho's whole schtick too much. Just don't. We love him the way he is. No clones or asexual offspring or whatevertheheck. I'm not even thrilled about him wearing pants instead of the classic trunks. C'mon, now. This is METAMORPHO.

New members are fine and well, but let us see what it's like to be the newbie in the team, or the Outsider in a team called The Outsiders.

Give them more guest shots. Let them play with others. Don't stash them away in their own little Outsiders world. Give them the confidence of veteran JLA members, even if the rest of the world sees them as barely d-list. This team has a history and a richness that a creative team should be having a great time with, even if that history hasn't resonated in the rest of the DCU. Exploit that history! Evolve this team with a knowledge of what they've already done. Flesh them out...you have fantastic source material. Just pay attention to it.

I really hope Didio wasn't just blowing steam when he said he had an affinity for the old Batman & the Outsiders series. If he applies that affinity to his stint as writer, you can count on my 2.99. Or 3.99. Or whatever DC is bleeding out of us now. I'm there.

That's my rant.

[Anxy]

I'd make the Outsiders a really out there team comic like Morrison's Doom Patrol or Milligan & Allred's X-Statix. The original book by Mike Barr, Jim Aparo & Alan Davis had all sorts of weird villains, so I would play on that stuff.

I'd keep the team pretty much close to the original lineup with Metamorpho, Black Lightning, Geo-Force, Katana etc and just play up the weird 'outsider' nature of the book along with some humor. I think stripping down the original Outsiders out of the lineup would make the book even more generic than it is now.


Agreed, and fantastic idea about making it a more stylized, "out-there" book. Two things that have killed this title for me have been:

1. Phases when so many of the original characters were replaced that the book might as well have been called something else; and

2. Slathering on a layer of the good ol' dark'n'gritty treatment. Give it a rest, already.

[Mister Blisterfists]

Anxy, I disagree, only in the sense that a team has to retain its original members to remain interesting.

if the original members are boring, it will never get any better. It only takes a look at the Doom Patrol to realize this.

and I LOVE the Doom Patrol.

simply put, just putting the originals together and calling it "The Outsiders" isn't gonna make it work automatically. And besides that, there are plenty of new characters that I find more interesting than some of the old.

just look at the current team known as "The Titans".

it sucks. Why? because those characters, while they shared something awesome in "The New Teen Titans" have changed over the years, and keeping them together just for the sake of familiarity is making the stories, and characters pretty damn boring.

[Anxy]

Anxy, I disagree, only in the sense that a team has to retain its original members to remain interesting.

if the original members are boring, it will never get any better. It only takes a look at the Doom Patrol to realize this.

and I LOVE the Doom Patrol.

simply put, just putting the originals together and calling it "The Outsiders" isn't gonna make it work automatically. And besides that, there are plenty of new characters that I find more interesting than some of the old.

just look at the current team known as "The Titans".

it sucks. Why? because those characters, while they shared something awesome in "The New Teen Titans" have changed over the years, and keeping them together just for the sake of familiarity is making the stories, and characters pretty damn boring.

Okay, well, sure.

But if the team doesn't resemble the original configuration in any way, not even in terms of the unique dynamic that defined that team, why go on with the same name? Create a new comic with a new team and give them a new name.

If Paul's the only one left in the band and they're not planning on doing the old stuff, why not call 'em Wings?

Also, I think it's the responsibility of the creative team to keep those characters interesting, so there's a reason to carry on with the team and the title. If you're writing an Outsiders title and you don't have a passion for the characters and if none of the incarnations previous to your run do anything for you, then you need to step aside and let someone more interested step in. Characters don't become boring on their own. Writers and artists make characters boring. Or interesting.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Bring back Thunder and Grace. Drop Geo-Force, Halo, The Creeper, and Owlman. And also bring back Batgirl (Cassandra Cain) to anchor the team. This book needs a big-name character like Batman, Nightwing, or Batgirl in order to be commercially viable.

Those two hairy lesbians? No thanks.

[Forth World]

When they relaunched Outsiders in 1993 with the 4 original team members (Geo-Force, Katana, Halo and Looker), it lasted 24 issues.

When they re-relaunched it in 2003 with 0 original members and a whole new team (Arsenal, Jade, Indigo, Shift, later Thunder and Grace) it lasted 40 issues.

When they re-re-relaunched it in 2007 with 2 original members Katana and later Geo-Force), it lasted 24 issues.

Now that they've re-re-re-relaunched it this year with 3 original members (Geo-Force, Katana and Black Lightning) it's going to be over in 9.

Lesson: the original characters are no good whatsoever. The fewer you use, the longer your book lasts.

[Mister Blisterfists]

If Paul's the only one left in the band and they're not planning on doing the old stuff, why not call 'em Wings?



because this isn't a band.

Donna, Wally, Garth, Roy and Dick are gone, but we still have a Teen Titans.

Hell, Titans leave and die so often that we've had several different iconic iterations of the Teen Titans.

we've had some bad iterations as well, but still, it's the Teen Titans, and there's not a single original member on it.

[Captain Jim]

When they relaunched Outsiders in 1993 with the 4 original team members (Geo-Force, Katana, Halo and Looker), it lasted 24 issues.

When they re-relaunched it in 2003 with 0 original members and a whole new team (Arsenal, Jade, Indigo, Shift, later Thunder and Grace) it lasted 40 issues.

When they re-re-relaunched it in 2007 with 2 original members Katana and later Geo-Force), it lasted 24 issues.

Now that they've re-re-re-relaunched it this year with 3 original members (Geo-Force, Katana and Black Lightning) it's going to be over in 9.

Lesson: the original characters are no good whatsoever. The fewer you use, the longer your book lasts.

I think the original team worked fine when Batman was involved, leading the missions. But they aren't strong enough to carry the book without him.

[Anxy]

because this isn't a band.

Donna, Wally, Garth, Roy and Dick are gone, but we still have a Teen Titans.

Hell, Titans leave and die so often that we've had several different iconic iterations of the Teen Titans.

we've had some bad iterations as well, but still, it's the Teen Titans, and there's not a single original member on it.

But the Teen Titans as a team is more of a concept than a family, by definition. That's why we could have a Teen Titans book and a Titans book. The idea of Teen Titans is to bring together various sidekicks/offspring of existing adult DC heroes. That's what TT is today, and that's what it's been throughout the years. Because the characters in the original Titans line-up have grown up and evolved over the past few decades, it's a lot more difficult and less logistically sound to keep them in the same team. That makes sense.

And with JLA, we're used to the line-up changing every few issues, because it's more about what the JLA does than the "integrity" of the core/charter members.

I'm not saying that the worth of EVERY team book is based on retaining the original characters. I am, however, saying that the appeal of The Outsiders is in its original core characters. Without them, what defines the book as "The Outsiders" as opposed to "The Insiders" or "The North Siders" or "The Topsiders"?

[Anxy]

When they relaunched Outsiders in 1993 with the 4 original team members (Geo-Force, Katana, Halo and Looker), it lasted 24 issues.

When they re-relaunched it in 2003 with 0 original members and a whole new team (Arsenal, Jade, Indigo, Shift, later Thunder and Grace) it lasted 40 issues.

When they re-re-relaunched it in 2007 with 2 original members Katana and later Geo-Force), it lasted 24 issues.

Now that they've re-re-re-relaunched it this year with 3 original members (Geo-Force, Katana and Black Lightning) it's going to be over in 9.

Lesson: the original characters are no good whatsoever. The fewer you use, the longer your book lasts.

Then what's the appeal of calling it "The Outsiders"? Team up a bunch of characters that have never been been teamed up before, come up with a new team name, and send it on its way.

[Rev. Calibos]

Drop Raymond and Creeper.

The cast is fine without these two .Metamorpho provides a lighter tone compared to the more somber Geo-Force and Katana while Black Lighning is shaping up to be a decent leader.