Superboy Prime

[shecks]

I would like to do some reading on Superboy Prime but am not really sure where to start. Is Infinite Crisis a good place?

I really enjoyed his part in The Sinestro Corps War Volume 2 so that is where my interest started. This is my first post and I am pretty new to comics so please be kind.

Thanks for the help :biggrin:

[WorstThingUS]

I would like to do some reading on Superboy Prime but am not really sure where to start. Is Infinite Crisis a good place?

I really enjoyed his part in The Sinestro Corps War Volume 2 so that is where my interest started. This is my first post and I am pretty new to comics so please be kind.

Thanks for the help :biggrin:

Actually you should go back to Crisis on Infinite Earths. The story really begins there. Actually it begins here:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/thumb/6/64/DC_Comics_Presents_-87.jpg/300px-DC_Comics_Presents_-87.jpg

...then Crisis on Infinite Earths, then Infinite Crisis, then the Sinestro Wars, then Legion of 3 Worlds. That's about it, right?

[ryerye17]

There's Countdown to Final Crisis too :)

No offense, but I think you're one of a few people who actually like "emo-boy" prime.

[WorstThingUS]

There's Countdown to Final Crisis too :)

No offense, but I think you're one of a few people who actually like "emo-boy" prime.

I like him, but mainly because everyone else seems to so thoroughly hate him apparently not caring that the reason he is the way he is is because made the ultimate sacrifice to save the universe and was rewarded with hell and it destroyed him.

This pretty much tells his entire story if you don't want to bother buying all those mini-series:
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/thumb/f/f5/TOTSC_-_Superman-Prime_1.jpg/387px-TOTSC_-_Superman-Prime_1.jpg

[SeritoNiN]

I hate the dialogue used for him, way too simplistic. I'd like the character if they matured him some and made him less thick headed and at times just plain stupid.

[Buried Alien]

I hate the dialogue used for him, way too simplistic. I'd like the character if they matured him some and made him less thick headed and at times just plain stupid.

But if that were to happen, he would no longer be Superboy Prime. He would become just another generic Superboy.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Will.S]

I'm just tired of seeing him in so many events.

I get the joke that Johns is playing with him but to see him pop up yet again in Adventure Comics is groan inducing.

[Karl O'Neill]

One of my favourite villains in comics ever.

Loved him in the sinestro corps war.

He was badass.

[ryerye17]

I like him, but mainly because everyone else seems to so thoroughly hate him apparently not caring that the reason he is the way he is is because made the ultimate sacrifice to save the universe and was rewarded with hell and it destroyed him.


You have read his dialogue in Countdown right?

[WorstThingUS]

You have read his dialogue in Countdown right?

I avoided Countdown like the plague and pity all of you who didn't see the writing on the wall in issue #1. But that Tales of the Sinestro Corps issue was still very affecting in telling his origin and fall, conveying that HE'S INSANE. He's not clear headed evil like say, Luthor or Darkseid. And you can't just decided not to be insane once your mind has been broken. He's now a psychopath, meaning his emotional response is pretty much frozen in that of a child. Basically, imagine what a 3-year old having temper tantrum who also had the power of a god would do. You'd find the daycare where you placed him in orbit along with everyone in it. But you wouldn't condemn him as evil. Dangerous as hell, yes, but not evil.

And I do believe Johns was going to redeem him in Legion of 3 Worlds, but was overruled.

[bongoes]

Loved him in the sinestro corps war.
I agree with that. The rest... not so much.

[Samuraixsithlord]

If he wasn't so stupid and childish and more mature, he'd be really dangerous.

A being with a realistic Pre-Crisis Superman power suit plus intelligence. scary

[FlyingFox]

He's one of my favorite characters. I can't wait till he comes back and kicks some more ass.

[Alex L]

I hate the dialogue used for him, way too simplistic. I'd like the character if they matured him some and made him less thick headed and at times just plain stupid.

But if that were to happen, he would no longer be Superboy Prime. He would become just another generic Superboy.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I also don't care for his dialogue.

Don't get me wrong; I get what Johns is going for but SBP is supposed to be (and therefore have the speech patterns and mental/emotional maturity of) a sixteen-year old, not a seven-year-old.

[Thok]

You have read his dialogue in Countdown right?

Don't make me kill you to death.

It amuses me that people do get into such a rage about Emoboy, because that's the whole point.

I do agree that he works better when used sparingly; after Johns ties him into Blackest Night in Adventure Comics, he should disappear for at least 5 years.

[Nefarius]

.

Loved him in the sinestro corps war.

He was badass.

Sinestro Corps war made me like Superboy Prime as a villain.Although i prefer Hank Henshaw as "the evil Superman",Superboy-Prime was quite great as a member of Sinestro's corps.

[shecks]

Thanks for the replies!

What I seem to like about him is that he pretty much rips through anything in his path (from what little I have read so far) and that he has the "I don't give a crap about anyone or anything around me" attitude.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

There's Countdown to Final Crisis too :)

No offense, but I think you're one of a few people who actually like "emo-boy" prime.

I think the character is hilarious.

The reason so few fanboys like him is his uncanny resemblance to themselves.

[Surtur]

People love to hate him, which is sort of the aim of the character. The way he talks, etc. is all part of that.

Someone said if he was more mature he'd be really dangerous. Actually, a being with that level of power is a bit more dangerous if he isn't mature. If he was a more mature person, he wouldn't of made some of the choices he has made.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I also don't care for his dialogue.

Don't get me wrong; I get what Johns is going for but SBP is supposed to be (and therefore have the speech patterns and mental/emotional maturity of) a sixteen-year old, not a seven-year-old.

Have you read the average post of a frothing at the mouth hardcore fanboy? It'd be a compliment to say they have the speech patterns & emotional maturity of a seven-year old.

I can understand Superboy-Prime grating on some readers though. Comics fans already have to deal with angry fanboys all the time, it makes sense that they wouldn't want to have to read about them in their comics too.

While I sympathize, I still think the character is so over-the-top, I can't help but smile everytime he shows up--and Geoff Johns is writing him.

So, whatever nonsense he was up to in Countdown wasn't even on my radar. That comic was so bad, it was radioactive. Has anything from Countdown been referenced since it ended? I know Final Crisis completely ignored it.

My guess is the entire thing has been swept under the carpet and will never be mentioned again, except for one or two bits here and there.

[Will.S]

If he wasn't so stupid and childish and more mature, he'd be really dangerous.

A being with a realistic Pre-Crisis Superman power suit plus intelligence. scary
What I found strange is how Superboy Prime is so powerful since he retained his pre-Crisis powers and yet Kal-L didn't retain any of that.

[Will.S]

Have you read the average post of a frothing at the mouth hardcore fanboy? It'd be a compliment to say they have the speech patterns & emotional maturity of a seven-year old.

I can understand Superboy-Prime grating on some readers though. Comics fans already have to deal with angry fanboys all the time, it makes sense that they wouldn't want to have to read about them in their comics too.

While I sympathize, I still think the character is so over-the-top, I can't help but smile everytime he shows up--and Geoff Johns is writing him.
I think a lot of people get what Superboy Prime is about but personally I can only take so much of him before his shtick get a little old, especially when Johns keeps putting him in his own books and events.

So, whatever nonsense he was up to in Countdown wasn't even on my radar. That comic was so bad, it was radioactive. Has anything from Countdown been referenced since it ended? I know Final Crisis completely ignored it.

My guess is the entire thing has been swept under the carpet and will never be mentioned again, except for one or two bits here and there.
Well off the top of my head:

James Jesse Trickster is still dead
Ray Palmer Atom basically came back from out of that book
Captain Atom still became Monarch, exploded, and got better
Karate Kid and Triplicate Girl are still dead

[Mr. Holmes]

I like Superboy Prime because he's entertaining. His dialogue is so lame,it's worth while. In LO3W he was basically a parody of himself, despite being written by Johns. "Don't call me Clark. That's a geek's name" :biggrin:

As for reading about him:

Crisis On Infinite Earths, Countdown to Infinite Crisis, Infinite Crisis, Sinestro Corps War, Countdown to Final Crisis, Legion of 3 Worlds, and in the future Adventure Comics #4 and #5.

[WorstThingUS]

Have you read the average post of a frothing at the mouth hardcore fanboy? It'd be a compliment to say they have the speech patterns & emotional maturity of a seven-year old.


That's funny. I made the very same observation about a frothing fanboy on another thread, though I was generous and made him a 12-year-old.

[Zero Hunter]

I would go right from Infinite Crisis to Legion of 3 Worlds and just skip over Countdown.

All you need to know about Countdown is that at the end of the Sinestro Corps War SB Prime was overflowing with energy and looked more grown up. he travelled through a few different universe causing trouble and finally got into a major throwdown with Monarch who was assembling a massive army to take over the mutliverse. They fought and in the end they both got blown up and shot off into different dimensions. SB Prime lost all the extra power he had and was snatched out of whereever he was blown to and sent to the future to fight the Legion of Super Heroes by the Time Trapper. I know this might sound interesting but it really really wasn't.

[show name]

And I do believe Johns was going to redeem him in Legion of 3 Worlds, but was overruled.

Redemption overruled? Arrggh!

Man, I very much want SBP redeemed.

Thanks for the replies!

What I seem to like about him is that he pretty much rips through anything in his path (from what little I have read so far) and that he has the "I don't give a crap about anyone or anything around me" attitude.

I can definitely see how he could be an interesting and appealing villain to readers who first encountered him in Infinite Crisis. But for those of us who first knew him and remember him as a noble-hearted, utterly selfless young hero in Crisis on Infinite Earths (COIE), however, it's often a lot harder to appreciate him as a bad guy...particularly such a selfish, scheming, egomaniacal and petty bad guy. If he were a brand new villain I'd be fine with him having these personality traits, but considering he started out with the exact opposite of these qualities, the transformation was not very convincing. Kal-L's Infinite Crisis rampage was much more believable.

If Johns does eventually bring the character back to his original heroic glory, though, I'll totally forgive everything! :smile: I've always suspected that he originally intended to redeem SBP one day.

I'll be curious to see how you feel about SBP after you read COIE -- which BTW is still an awesome story even after 20+ years, so enjoy!

[Mat001]

Well off the top of my head:

James Jesse Trickster is still dead
Ray Palmer Atom basically came back from out of that book
Captain Atom still became Monarch, exploded, and got better
Karate Kid and Triplicate Girl are still dead

Along with Jimmy Olsen's transformations, the destruction and rebirth of Earth-51, Darkseid mentioned that Orion died a number of infinite deaths, Bart Allen's death and resurrection, the Red Robin costume going to the General and then to Tim Drake, Cadmus being seen for the last time intact and a couple of others. The rest has been ignored or forgotten due to Darkseid.

I would go right from Infinite Crisis to Legion of 3 Worlds and just skip over Countdown.

It can work either way. The opening pages of "Legion Of 3 Worlds" are vague enough that you can have one or both.

[The Joker]

I can definitely see how he could be an interesting and appealing villain to readers who first encountered him in Infinite Crisis. But for those of us who first knew him and remember him as a noble-hearted, utterly selfless young hero in Crisis on Infinite Earths (COIE), however, it's often a lot harder to appreciate him as a bad guy...particularly such a selfish, scheming, egomaniacal and petty bad guy. If he were a brand new villain I'd be fine with him having these personality traits, but considering he started out with the exact opposite of these qualities, the transformation was not very convincing. Kal-L's Infinite Crisis rampage was much more believable.

If Johns does eventually bring the character back to his original heroic glory, though, I'll totally forgive everything! :smile: I've always suspected that he originally intended to redeem SBP one day.

I'll be curious to see how you feel about SBP after you read COIE -- which BTW is still an awesome story even after 20+ years, so enjoy!

I agree. For those who actually read about the character before Infinite Crisis, it was especially jarring to see him take the route of becoming a egomaniacal villain. I mean, this kid was ordered by Kal-L, who decided to take on the Anti-Monitor alone in COIE, to take the Earth-1 Superman along with another hero (I forget which one) to the pathway Alex Luthor summoned and get the hell out of there. Does he do what he's told? No. Instead, he unselfishly returns after tossing the Earth-1 Superman thru the rift to safety in order to aid Kal-L (whom he states did not want to leave alone) in his battle against the Anti-Monitor. SBP was a hero. Pure and simple.

As a villain, I think he works as well. But to get a better handle of his "fall from grace, I'm afraid Infinite Crisis isn't a good place to start. Personally, I found the Infinite Crisis: Secret Files, and the Superman-Prime one shot to be much more helpful in understanding how he went from how he was portrayed in DC Comics Presents and COIE, to what he became in Infinite Crisis.

Truth be told, one of the biggest reasons I looked forward to reading "Legion of 3 Worlds" was because of the whole SBP being redeemed somehow. That right there got my attention.

Unfortunately, it never happened.

[Alex L]

I can't picture him being redeemed.

In Countdown, he personally razed and destroyed at least one entire world as well as torturing Mr. Mxyptzlk and Annataz Arataz.

Even if you leave that out, he still killed a whole bunch of GLs and SCers in the Sinestro Corps War, some Titans during Infinite Crisis, and Legionaires in LO3W... not counting his failed plans like speeding through Oa which would have resulted in even more deaths.

A hero can only be so tarnished before -- well, at some point he just can't be a hero anymore.

[Jared]

Just say he was possessed by a grey emo entity, and all is forgiven.

[show name]

I say the villain SBP is a Skrull being mind-controlled by Max Lord - the real Maxwell Lord, who is in hiding...the Max Lord that WW killed was actually a Skrull impostor.

[WorstThingUS]

I can't picture him being redeemed.

In Countdown, he personally razed and destroyed at least one entire world as well as torturing Mr. Mxyptzlk and Annataz Arataz.

Even if you leave that out, he still killed a whole bunch of GLs and SCers in the Sinestro Corps War, some Titans during Infinite Crisis, and Legionaires in LO3W... not counting his failed plans like speeding through Oa which would have resulted in even more deaths.

A hero can only be so tarnished before -- well, at some point he just can't be a hero anymore.

First of all, he's insane. We don't hold people responsible for their actions while mentally deficient. Second, Hal Jordan showed anyone can be redeemed. Third, Prime killed billions in his insanity to bring back his world, but the irony is not only did he ultimately succeed, but caused the recreation of the multiverse thereby creating untold trillions of lives.

[Munkiman]

I like Superboy-Prime. He's cool, and I totally understand his motivation.

First of all, he's insane. We don't hold people responsible for their actions while mentally deficient. Second, Hal Jordan showed anyone can be redeemed. Third, Prime killed billions in his insanity to bring back his world, but the irony is not only did he ultimately succeed, but caused the recreation of the multiverse thereby creating untold trillions of lives.
He didn't intend to recreate the multiverse, though - he intended to recreate Earth-Prime, and destroy the rest of the multiverse. The current 52 multiverse was an accident created as an unexpected result of Alex Luthor and SBP's tuning fork.

[Mr. Holmes]

First of all, he's insane. We don't hold people responsible for their actions while mentally deficient. Second, Hal Jordan showed anyone can be redeemed. Third, Prime killed billions in his insanity to bring back his world, but the irony is not only did he ultimately succeed, but caused the recreation of the multiverse thereby creating untold trillions of lives.

Ha, good call, he actually restored more lives than he destroyed.

[show name]

I agree. For those who actually read about the character before Infinite Crisis, it was especially jarring to see him take the route of becoming a egomaniacal villain. I mean, this kid was ordered by Kal-L, who decided to take on the Anti-Monitor alone in COIE, to take the Earth-1 Superman along with another hero (I forget which one) to the pathway Alex Luthor summoned and get the hell out of there. Does he do what he's told? No. Instead, he unselfishly returns after tossing the Earth-1 Superman thru the rift to safety in order to aid Kal-L (whom he states did not want to leave alone) in his battle against the Anti-Monitor. SBP was a hero. Pure and simple.

Yeah, I get kind of choked up when I recall this scene. Giving up salvation and condemning himself to death or eternal exile simply because he didn't want Superman of Earth-1 to be killed or banished alone. That's what that the "S" and cape's all about, man.

Where's your sig from BTW way? I like that quote.

[Zembo]

The reason I don't like him is because he's too damn powerful. "Ooo, I can punch reality". It basically means that anytime he showed up it would be pointless to fight him and he could just beat anyone. He's Johns' little Trivial Pursuit pet that he was allowed to stick in instead of good writing. His initial stuff and his Sinestro Corps appearance was so irritating and underwhelming that it just turned me off to the character altogether.

[Buried Alien]

The reason I don't like him is because he's too damn powerful. "Ooo, I can punch reality". It basically means that anytime he showed up it would be pointless to fight him and he could just beat anyone.

Clarification: Superboy Prime couldn't "punch reality" any time he wanted to. It worked when he was trapped in that paradise dimension with its crystal wall (because of the unique properties of that wall plus the unique properties of a Kryptonian from the Earth-Prime universe). With that crystal wall destroyed and the paradise dimension inaccessible, Superboy Prime has no means of affecting the timestream anymore. What you're left with is a Pre-COIE Kryptonian without much idea of restraint.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[WorstThingUS]

He didn't intend to recreate the multiverse, though - he intended to recreate Earth-Prime, and destroy the rest of the multiverse. The current 52 multiverse was an accident created as an unexpected result of Alex Luthor and SBP's tuning fork.

Whether he meant to or not, he help to create infinitely more lives than he took, so the numbers argument can't be used against him.

[The Joker]

Where's your sig from BTW way? I like that quote.

Oscar Wilde quote I thought went with this username pretty well. :tongue:

[DetectiveDupin]

Infinite Crisis ruined a lot of characters.

[Alex L]

Whether he meant to or not, he help to create infinitely more lives than he took, so the numbers argument can't be used against him.

Philip Garrido kidnapped Jaycee Dugard, and had two children by raping her.

One life ruined, two created.

It ain't just about raw numbers.

There could be the argument that Truman, for example, dropped the A-bomb in an effort to save the lives of both American and Japanese soldiers by avoiding a prolonged, bloody battle. But the intent would ultimately be to preserve as much life as possible.

SBP cannot claim such motivation.

[Mat001]

No one said that he could. That said, he can still be redeemed by stopping his actions, growing up and dealing with what he has done. Redemption isn't just the act of being forgiven for one's crimes, but in the acknowledgement of the wrong doing and making an effort to change.

[WorstThingUS]

Philip Garrido kidnapped Jaycee Dugard, and had two children by raping her.

One life ruined, two created.

It ain't just about raw numbers.

I'd argue three lives ruined given her parents, but that's neither here nor there and this is an odd comparison. But it was others who were making it seemingly about numbers, not me. I was just pointing out the hole in reducing it to that.

There could be the argument that Truman, for example, dropped the A-bomb in an effort to save the lives of both American and Japanese soldiers by avoiding a prolonged, bloody battle. But the intent would ultimately be to preserve as much life as possible.

SBP cannot claim such motivation.

No one said that he could. That said, he can still be redeemed by stopping his actions, growing up and dealing with what he has done. Redemption isn't just the act of being forgiven for one's crimes, but in the acknowledgement of the wrong doing and making an effort to change.

He's insane. He's not going to try and claim a greater good any more than he's suddenly going to stop. He's insane and incapable of doing anything that would lead to his redemption. The fact that getting back his world and the people he loved didn't change him shows just how beyond broken he is (he may have killed his girlfriend and his parents live in fear of him). This is why Superman's declaration of "We have to redeem Superboy Prime" was so important. It seemed to be leading to some kind of outside action to heal his broken mind because that's the only way it's going to happen. He's not going to do it himself, because he's insane. People are acting like he's Luthor when he's more like Two Face. No one ever wonders why Two Face doesn't just "change" back into a good guy.

[Buried Alien]

He's insane. He's not going to try and claim a greater good any more than he's suddenly going to stop. He's insane and incapable of doing anything that would lead to his redemption. The fact that getting back his world and the people he loved didn't change him shows just how beyond broken he is (he may have killed his girlfriend and his parents live in fear of him). This is why Superman's declaration of "We have to redeem Superboy Prime" was so important. It seemed to be leading to some kind of outside action to heal his broken mind because that's the only way it's going to happen. He's not going to do it himself, because he's insane. People are acting like he's Luthor when he's more like Two Face. No one ever wonders why Two Face doesn't just "change" back into a good guy.

If Superboy Prime can overcome his own insanity, it would be the most superheroic thing he has ever done.

What could be more heroic than triumphing over the evil within oneself?

So far, he's been losing that fight and losing it badly, but where is it written in stone that he must lose it forever and ever?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[WorstThingUS]

If Superboy Prime can overcome his own insanity, it would be the most superheroic thing he has ever done.

What could be more heroic than triumphing over the evil within oneself?

So far, he's been losing that fight and losing it badly, but where is it written in stone that he must lose it forever and ever?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

There isn't and your big hint he will be redeemed is that a Legion comes from his world, but if mental illness could be overcome by choice or will, there'd be no mentally ill people at all. Superboy is pretty much a psychopath at this point, which is to say he's frozen in at the emotional level of a child. If you gave toddler the powers of a god, you'd have a double digit body count at your local day care, but you really couldn't change him by asking him to change could you? Same with SBP. He's trapped at that level and can't "un-trap" himself; someone has to help him get free. Which it looked like Superman was going to try and do...then he didn't. But someone could. But then you have him dealing with the guilt over all he's done, which could drive someone...insane.

[Buried Alien]

There isn't and your big hint he will be redeemed is that a Legion comes from his world, but if mental illness could be overcome by choice or will, there'd be no mentally ill people at all. Superboy is pretty much a psychopath at this point, which is to say he's frozen in at the emotional level of a child. If you gave toddler the powers of a god, you'd have a double digit body count at your local day care, but you really couldn't change him by asking him to change could you? Same with SBP. He's trapped at that level and can't "un-trap" himself; someone has to help him get free. Which it looked like Superman was going to try and do...then he didn't. But someone could. But then you have him dealing with the guilt over all he's done, which could drive someone...insane.

If Superboy Prime were just an ordinary person, then maybe he'd be inescapably confined by such conditions.

But don't forget: he *is* a Superman. A very badly damaged Superman, but nevertheless a Superman.

And what is it that has always made Superman special?

His ability to overcome that which ordinary men could not.

An ordinary man might not be able to will away insanity, but perhaps a Superman can.

It would be one of the greatest Superman moments if Superboy Prime, as a Superman, could overcome the evil within him and assert the fundamental heroic spirit that underlies all variations of Superman (including even the openly villainous ones).

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[WorstThingUS]

If Superboy Prime were just an ordinary person, then maybe he'd be inescapably confined by such conditions.

But don't forget: he *is* a Superman. A very badly damaged Superman, but nevertheless a Superman.

And what is it that has always made Superman special?

His ability to overcome that which ordinary men could not.

An ordinary man might not be able to will away insanity, but perhaps a Superman can.

It would be one of the greatest Superman moments if Superboy Prime, as a Superman, could overcome the evil within him and assert the fundamental heroic spirit that underlies all variations of Superman (including even the openly villainous ones).

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Yeah, but he's just a boy. It's why Limbo broke him when it only briefly turned Kal-L. He didn't have the maturity or experience needed to resist it, much less come out of it.

[Angelo2113]

No one said that he could. That said, he can still be redeemed by stopping his actions, growing up and dealing with what he has done. Redemption isn't just the act of being forgiven for one's crimes, but in the acknowledgement of the wrong doing and making an effort to change.

After the end of Legion of Three Worlds, he has nothing left. His family saw him as a murderer. Even his girlfriend. He has nothing left. I thought he could be redeemed in Legion of Three Worlds and was hoping he would be, but after the end of that, there is no redeeming Superboy Prime.

At first when I was hoping he would be redeemed, I thought he would be too strong of a character to have as a good guy. I love the character though as he is, I kind of feel bad for him after Legion of Three Worlds, but I can't wait for him to come back.

[Alex L]

I'd argue three lives ruined given her parents, but that's neither here nor there and this is an odd comparison. But it was others who were making it seemingly about numbers, not me. I was just pointing out the hole in reducing it to that.

Okay -- I really, really don't get what you're talking about now.

Not being snarky, I'm not sure what we're discussing anymore.

The argument of 'he did a bad thing' is not countered by 'he inadvertently did a good thing.' Try it in court and see how far that gets you.

The numbers argument is moderately significant, but secondary to the sheer maliciousness of what he did.

I can't see, at the end of the character arc, him sinking to his knees with his head in his hands -- paralyzed by the sheer horror of what he's done -- and the Justice League dusting off their hands and saying, "Well -- he's redeemed. Job well done, everybody!"

Or the readers closing the book and thinking to themselves, "That's that; he's a hero again."

Actually, now that I think about it the situation isn't all that different than what I've heard about the backstage maneuverings of the Dark Phoenix Saga. I don't know if the fans would have accepted an ending where Jean gets -- well, maybe not a happily-ever-after ending but one where she comes out the other side with everyone forgiving her.

[show name]

No one said that he could. That said, he can still be redeemed by stopping his actions, growing up and dealing with what he has done. Redemption isn't just the act of being forgiven for one's crimes, but in the acknowledgement of the wrong doing and making an effort to change.

I like this post!
Yes, it would be a whopping good story to have SBP redeemed in this way. It's not the most spectacular way but it's the closest to real life and therefore the most profound.
I agree that he doesn't need to be forgiven by anyone or everyone. Simply having him climb out of the pit and make his way back to heroic peaks would be thrilling for the readership, whether his fellow heroes forgive him or not. He could work very well as an outcast hero, or merely an unsung hero like Booster Gold. That would be a fascinating thing in fact to have such a powerful hero striving to do good despite being shunned or even reviled and hated by much of the hero community.
And plus I would love to see him, as a reformed hero, absolutely slap the arrogance out of Black Adam so that maybe BA will also have a chance to wake up out of his own genocidal maniac nightmare. That would be amazing, in fact...they share a lot in common and to have one provide the salvation for the other would be fairly poetic.

If Superboy Prime can overcome his own insanity, it would be the most superheroic thing he has ever done.

What could be more heroic than triumphing over the evil within oneself?


Well said!

Yeah, but he's just a boy. It's why Limbo broke him when it only briefly turned Kal-L. He didn't have the maturity or experience needed to resist it, much less come out of it.

Perhaps you have a point. In which case it would be cool if one of the older Supermans had a hand in his recovery.

[Mat001]

After the end of Legion of Three Worlds, he has nothing left. His family saw him as a murderer. Even his girlfriend. He has nothing left. I thought he could be redeemed in Legion of Three Worlds and was hoping he would be, but after the end of that, there is no redeeming Superboy Prime.

At first when I was hoping he would be redeemed, I thought he would be too strong of a character to have as a good guy. I love the character though as he is, I kind of feel bad for him after Legion of Three Worlds, but I can't wait for him to come back.

I can't see, at the end of the character arc, him sinking to his knees with his head in his hands -- paralyzed by the sheer horror of what he's done -- and the Justice League dusting off their hands and saying, "Well -- he's redeemed. Job well done, everybody!"

Or the readers closing the book and thinking to themselves, "That's that; he's a hero again."


Sure he can come back. Look at Anakin Skywalker. He killed all kinds of people, betrayed his loved ones, attacked his wife, cut off his own son's hand and tortured his daughter's boyfriend. But he was able to redeem himself by changing his evil ways and repenting at the end. There's no reason Prime cannot do that himself. It can happen. That's the point of redemption. Something like that could happen to Superboy-Prime if Johns took that route.

[WorstThingUS]

Okay -- I really, really don't get what you're talking about now.

Not being snarky, I'm not sure what we're discussing anymore.

Someone mentioned numbers killed being a factor and my counter was that wasn't a valid reason against redemption because he'd created more than he killed. If you make it purely a numbers game he can still wipe out a universe because he helped to create 51 others.


Perhaps you have a point. In which case it would be cool if one of the older Supermans had a hand in his recovery.

Which is exactly what we thought we were going to get when Superman says, "We have to redeem Superboy Prime."

Sure he can come back. Look at Anakin Skywalker. He killed all kinds of people, betrayed his loved ones, attacked his wife, cut off his own son's hand and tortured his daughter's boyfriend. But he was able to redeem himself by changing his evil ways and repenting at the end. There's no reason Prime cannot do that himself. It can happen. That's the point of redemption. Something like that could happen to Superboy-Prime if Johns took that route.

Except Vader wasn't still a raving psychopath after 25 years. SBP quite clearly still is. Realizing his children were still alive helped turn Vader. Getting back his family had no impact on SBP because...he's insane.

I'll say it again: he's like a superpowered Two-Face. A good guy gone insane while doing the right thing, but no one ever suggests that Two Face just needs to "want" redemption because his insanity is accepted. Why is Prime's insanity seemingly a matter of choice to people? He can't cure himself of it anymore than someone can cure themselves of a brain tumor. It requires treatment of some sort.

[Mat001]

Except Harvey Dent fights against Two-Face from time to time. And we've seen Harvey develop another personality known as Janus.

Vader was still evil all the way up until Luke refused to become a Sith. The knowledge of his existence didn't stop Vader, because he was still wanting to turn Luke to the dark side and overthrow Sidious. He only stopped Luke showed him unconditional love and refused to follow the same path as him.

That said, Alexander Luthor is showing up as a BL. That might have an affect on Prime.

[The Joker]

That said, Alexander Luthor is showing up as a BL. That might have an affect on Prime.

It certainly will to some extent.

http://i.newsarama.com/dcnew/dec09/1/adv_comics_cv5.jpg

The Black Lanterns have forced Prime to face his deepest and darkest fears, but what - and who - are they? And how will Superboy-Prime strike back after this devastating attack?

[WorstThingUS]

Except Harvey Dent fights against Two-Face from time to time. And we've seen Harvey develop another personality known as Janus.

Know why? Because he's insane.

[Mat001]

Know why? Because he's insane.

And you know what, people can become sane.

[WorstThingUS]

And you know what, people can become sane.

Not through sheer force of will...as Harvey demonstrates repeatedly.

[Slumber Hulk]

I'm going to be really annoyed if Prime becomes a standard "Hero"

[Ziggy Stardust]

I would never recommend someone read Superboy's part in CoIE as then it becomes obvious what a butchering and sodomizing Superbitch Whine is of a once good character.

[show name]

I'm going to be really annoyed if Prime becomes a standard "Hero"

It's not a matter or "become," though. He began very much as a hero. A hero's hero, in fact.

[Alex L]

Someone mentioned numbers killed being a factor and my counter was that wasn't a valid reason against redemption because he'd created more than he killed. If you make it purely a numbers game he can still wipe out a universe because he helped to create 51 others.

So a person who has seven kids can kill two?

The numbers aspect is a supplement to the argument that he has maliciously killed -- it's important, but it's not the core of the issue.

[WorstThingUS]

So a person who has seven kids can kill two?

The numbers aspect is a supplement to the argument that he has maliciously killed -- it's important, but it's not the core of the issue.

And by the same token, that untold trillions were created as a result of his actions is a supplement to the argument of his redemption, but it's not the core of the issue either.

[prespragis]

One more late congrats! I hope you had a good one!

[Ziggy Stardust]

It certainly will to some extent.

http://i.newsarama.com/dcnew/dec09/1/adv_comics_cv5.jpg

The Black Lanterns have forced Prime to face his deepest and darkest fears, but what - and who - are they? And how will Superboy-Prime strike back after this devastating attack?

I think that the next artist who decides to rip of Perez's CoIE cover with Superman holding Supergirl's body and crying.... well, they should have their hands broken.

[The Joker]

I think that the next artist who decides to rip of Perez's CoIE cover with Superman holding Supergirl's body and crying.... well, they should have their hands broken.

I like that cover, though it certainly wasn't the first time a cover had a superhero holding a body and crying.

http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/uncanny-x-men/136-14.jpg

[WorstThingUS]

I like that cover, though it certainly wasn't the first time a cover had a superhero holding a body and crying.

http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/uncanny-x-men/136-14.jpg

And it actually came before COIE, but even that was far from the first use of that image.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Yeah, bu since Perez has drawn it, it's overused.

[The Joker]

And it actually came before COIE, but even that was far from the first use of that image.

Yeah, the "Robin Dies at Dawn" cover instantly comes to mind being similar.

[Valero]

Imagine, you're 15 or so, you give up everything to make sure your heroes and all of the universe survives...Is a god complex coming your way ? Then you see the heroes screw it up... You find that you can make it all right by recreating the universe as it should be...Then, the idiots you worshipped try to stop you...I would be mad. You may kill a few in bout of frustation but in the end it won't matter cause the universe will start anew and everything will be all right. Hey, they don't understand but you only want to make right what went wrong.

Many heroes have done the same. They destroyed alternate universes or timelines so theirs could come back and their means were not always pretty but they succeded. Prime failed...so far.

That's how I see Superboy-Prime. He's a heroe. The last heroe of a dead universe.

Is he annoying sometimes ? Sure, that how it is written. If we were not annoyed with him, the writer would have failed. Does he keep making the wrong choices and decisions? He sure do but that is why he needs his redemption and I keep waiting for it. I hoped that some story down the line would bring it.

Back to Superby-Prime. Now, the multiverse is back. Superboy-Prime actions made it possible. Maybe not the way he planned it but, hey, he is back on Earth-Prime and everything should be all right. He then finds out it those writers who made him do it (BTW, I don't really like when the 4th wall is broken unless in a funny or meta way, She-Hulk and Animal man come to mind... ). His Blackest night tie-in could have been his chance to redemption. He could have save his Earth while understanding all the things he did wrong but now it all depends on how you read the endind.

Give the guy a break. Let him become the heroe he should have been. Give him his redemption...even if he has to go in a blaze of glory.

How about Superboy-Prime sent to Earth-2 to take up the mantle of Superman and make up for all the thing he did wrong ? I would love to see that...

[thwhtGuardian]

Personally I like the depth that his self awareness brings to his character, and I really like the way the writers are handling his knowledge of what's behind the 4th wall. I mean, it's funny when deadpool talks to the audience, but I really like the serious take on it with superboy-prime.